troggleputty Posted March 21, 2010 Posted March 21, 2010 Mr. White, taking care of a new born is exhausting. Why don't you offer to baby sit for your friends to give them a night off so they can go out, have some fun, and reconnect? If you're not part of the solution, you're part of the problem.
crazycatlady Posted March 21, 2010 Posted March 21, 2010 Mem - normally I have a great deal of respect for what you have to say, but for some reason what you are posting here is either coming across poorly or is rather insulting to your wife. It feels like almost that you are treating her as a child, and not an equal in the marriage. Because how you are discribing talking to your wife is how I deal with my tween daughter. I would not approach my H in that manner because it would be disrespectful to him to do so. And if he spoke to me in that manner, I would grow resentful. I believe fully in XXOO's post. And during a rough patch in the marriage, both H and I realized that we were making "you" statements, instead of "I" statements. This is actually a point that H and I are trying to work at now. I've gotten better at expressing my needs and the fact that I need priority sometimes in the marriage and in the family, just as he needs it, and sometimes as the kids need it in the family (though not as much as they did as babies when they were the priority). But in asking for the things I need from him, I feel its hard to ask because he doesn't ask anything from me. And I feel weird asking him sometimes. Its either he needs nothing from me, he doesn't feel comfortable asking, or I do a good job of providing for his needs without asking. And while I would like to think its the last one, I worry its the second one. Course with that worry, it keeps me trying to anticipate his needs and meet them. CCL
crazycatlady Posted March 21, 2010 Posted March 21, 2010 Mr. White, taking care of a new born is exhausting. Why don't you offer to baby sit for your friends to give them a night off so they can go out, have some fun, and reconnect? If you're not part of the solution, you're part of the problem. What a lovely suggestion! During that bad time we had a male friend who offered to do that one night and we had a very lovely time just spending a couple of hours together bonding. It really helped us because he offered at just the right time. CCL
mem11363 Posted March 21, 2010 Posted March 21, 2010 CCL, I love cats - truly. My cat is great. As for my wife - just don't lose sight of one thing. My final statement was that "she handles me the same way in reverse." I am not intending to come across at all as condescending or disrespectful in how I describe the way I relate to my wife. I truly think she and I treat each other the same - and I also feel like we are fair to each other. It is hard to talk honestly about how one has conflict - without coming across as somewhat combative. Suffice to say that I love my wife - 9 days out of 10 we have zero conflict. One day in ten we have a short but painful fight. Once in a long long while we have a bad meltdown. The good news is that we do not use profanity, or physical intimidation or personally attack each other. We are both very strong willed though - so - a bad meltdown might mean that we are politely cold to each other for a couple DAYS - like 1 to 2 days. Oh - and when I think it truly is a tie I apologize and move on. This is not meant at all as a sexist comment just an observation. I believe that the average woman is emotionally quite a bit stronger than the average man - seriously. And my wife is for sure emotionally stronger than me. So I compensate by - 1. being really good at not fighting when angry because when angry I tend to say stupid things. 2. I have created a well defined set of boundaries that I fight like the devil to protect - and I have been successful so far . And overall - when asked - she says I "treat her like gold". So I guess this all works. Mem - normally I have a great deal of respect for what you have to say, but for some reason what you are posting here is either coming across poorly or is rather insulting to your wife. It feels like almost that you are treating her as a child, and not an equal in the marriage. Because how you are discribing talking to your wife is how I deal with my tween daughter. I would not approach my H in that manner because it would be disrespectful to him to do so. And if he spoke to me in that manner, I would grow resentful. I believe fully in XXOO's post. And during a rough patch in the marriage, both H and I realized that we were making "you" statements, instead of "I" statements. This is actually a point that H and I are trying to work at now. I've gotten better at expressing my needs and the fact that I need priority sometimes in the marriage and in the family, just as he needs it, and sometimes as the kids need it in the family (though not as much as they did as babies when they were the priority). But in asking for the things I need from him, I feel its hard to ask because he doesn't ask anything from me. And I feel weird asking him sometimes. Its either he needs nothing from me, he doesn't feel comfortable asking, or I do a good job of providing for his needs without asking. And while I would like to think its the last one, I worry its the second one. Course with that worry, it keeps me trying to anticipate his needs and meet them. CCL
crazycatlady Posted March 21, 2010 Posted March 21, 2010 CCL, I love cats - truly. My cat is great. As for my wife - just don't lose sight of one thing. My final statement was that "she handles me the same way in reverse." I am not intending to come across at all as condescending or disrespectful in how I describe the way I relate to my wife. I truly think she and I treat each other the same - and I also feel like we are fair to each other. It is hard to talk honestly about how one has conflict - without coming across as somewhat combative. Suffice to say that I love my wife - 9 days out of 10 we have zero conflict. One day in ten we have a short but painful fight. Once in a long long while we have a bad meltdown. The good news is that we do not use profanity, or physical intimidation or personally attack each other. We are both very strong willed though - so - a bad meltdown might mean that we are politely cold to each other for a couple DAYS - like 1 to 2 days. Oh - and when I think it truly is a tie I apologize and move on. This is not meant at all as a sexist comment just an observation. I believe that the average woman is emotionally quite a bit stronger than the average man - seriously. And my wife is for sure emotionally stronger than me. So I compensate by - 1. being really good at not fighting when angry because when angry I tend to say stupid things. 2. I have created a well defined set of boundaries that I fight like the devil to protect - and I have been successful so far . And overall - when asked - she says I "treat her like gold". So I guess this all works. Missed that, Mem. Sorry about that. I try reading everything several times before posting but I don't always get there. I'm rather giddy today, H is home after being gone 6 days, so I had 6 days of little sleep (can't sleep with him gone) and little sleep last night for more enjoyable reasons , is my only excuse. I would say we are rather similar to you guys, only our fights tend to be a bit more passionate then yours. We are both rather...passionate people. But neither of us hold a grudge past the fight. One or the other of us will call and apologize before long (I'll admit its normally but me, but he makes me melt when its him.) One big problem with us is he will start spouting some of the crap the other men here spout. And I won't tolerate that. I do not fit the stereotypically woman portrayed here and I refuse to allow those faults heaped on my shoulders. Normally I get defensive about it, but now I'm like why? I know I'm not that, and the one person that matters who, well he knows it too even if I sometimes have to go "ahem, I don't deserve that". Anyway, I am sorry. I do try to read better then that and thankyou for explaining and not taking personal offense at my statement. And cats are great. I like dogs, but accept the fact that I don't have the personality to be a dog owner. Cats however I have a bond I love my kitties. Warm and cuddly on their terms, which is fairly often if you treat them right, more then capable to going on their own. CCL
xxoo Posted March 21, 2010 Posted March 21, 2010 I do not fit the stereotypically woman portrayed here CCL Me, either, thank goodness! But, also very thankfully, my husband seems equally naive to these messed-up gender games and expectations. The older I get and more I learn, the more I think we just got together too young to learn how we were "supposed to" think and act as husband and wife. And thank god.
mem11363 Posted March 21, 2010 Posted March 21, 2010 CCL, Cats are the best. I would like our 2 dogs if we had gotten the type dogs I wanted - 2 dobermans - I planned to name them in a rhyming fashion - dobe - adobe Wife got two pet rescue dogs that are skittish and not so obedient. Oh well at least we have one cat. Delighted to hear your H is home and that you had a sleep deprived reunion As for your post - it wasn't incendiary - we all miss a sentence or two on occasion. Peace. Missed that, Mem. Sorry about that. I try reading everything several times before posting but I don't always get there. I'm rather giddy today, H is home after being gone 6 days, so I had 6 days of little sleep (can't sleep with him gone) and little sleep last night for more enjoyable reasons , is my only excuse. I would say we are rather similar to you guys, only our fights tend to be a bit more passionate then yours. We are both rather...passionate people. But neither of us hold a grudge past the fight. One or the other of us will call and apologize before long (I'll admit its normally but me, but he makes me melt when its him.) One big problem with us is he will start spouting some of the crap the other men here spout. And I won't tolerate that. I do not fit the stereotypically woman portrayed here and I refuse to allow those faults heaped on my shoulders. Normally I get defensive about it, but now I'm like why? I know I'm not that, and the one person that matters who, well he knows it too even if I sometimes have to go "ahem, I don't deserve that". Anyway, I am sorry. I do try to read better then that and thankyou for explaining and not taking personal offense at my statement. And cats are great. I like dogs, but accept the fact that I don't have the personality to be a dog owner. Cats however I have a bond I love my kitties. Warm and cuddly on their terms, which is fairly often if you treat them right, more then capable to going on their own. CCL
lcm Posted March 27, 2010 Posted March 27, 2010 There are other kids and a newborn. As a married husband to three wonderful children, I get the concern, and it's real. My wife changed, but I don't think it was worse. Our relationship changed, but it's not worse. Children create a change in lifestyle - that what happens when a new person enters a relationship (family). My wife and I had sex less frequently and less spontaneously after children, but that's part of the deal. The key is this: don't take it personal. The other part of it is this: communicate. For men this seems to be real hard, and it is. I felt the same way, because I didn't understand. What I did do was communicate. I told my wife that I appreciated that she was worn down from a long day of diapers, crying, bottles, laundry, etc. but that I wasn't feeling loved. I didn't need more sex, I needed to know I was still an important part of the relationship, because I felt replaced. It was my perception, but perception is reality. She told me she felt she was left alone to raise our child. That hurt me to hear. What the communication did was give both of us the opportunity to express our feelings (because feelings are real), which lead to a quick resolution. I help more with the kids, and our marriage grows, because she feels like I'm tuned into her and the kids more (read: family), and I feel that she's tuned into me more (read: loves me). It's tough, and until you're there, it's real difficult to appreciate. I didn't get married not wanting children, and I didn't get married to get married. I got married because I was in love, and having children with the woman I loved was what I wanted. The children aren't the problem, the communication is the problem. Open up, and the marriage will grow, the family will be stronger, and the children will be better off too.
dazzle22 Posted March 27, 2010 Posted March 27, 2010 I believe Mr White has a very valid concern. I am a woman who has chosen to be child "free" and I really mean it feels free, and great. I have been very disappointed in many of my girlfriends who were intelligent women who could carry great stimulating converations morph into these "mommies" who can spew nothing on facebook and at parties except stuff about breastfeeding, dirty diapers, and the withered umbilical cord falling off. Their husbands look beaten, and frankly, obviously neglected.... In one generation, we have turned into a "pediocracy". It's all-driving the kids here and there, my kid is in this school, doing this , that, blah, blah. And the lack of discipline is very annoying. Kids monopolize adult parties, situations, and conversations. WTH?? Do these people not have their own lives anymore? The kids run the show. That is one thing I appreciate about my parents' generation. Adults were shown respect and were the ones in charge. I think you have to know a person at least 3 years before you marry them, and really ask the right questions to see what you are going to be in for...
txsilkysmoothe Posted March 27, 2010 Posted March 27, 2010 My belief is that your spouse is someone with whom you will spend your entire life, that makes it the priority relationship. Children should be raised to "leave the nest" when grown. This doesn't mean the parents neglect the children or withhold love from them. Too many parents have a love affair with their children to the point of living vicariously through the child. Dads can be guilty of this too - turning their boys into sports stars. The couple has to recognize how potentially dangerous this mindset can be to the marriage and agree to guard against it.
always_searching Posted March 27, 2010 Posted March 27, 2010 (edited) It's hard, get over it, so is life. The life of 90% of the world population is way harder than we can even imagine, kids or no kids. What a bunch of crybabies we've turned into. First of all, I understand and agree with much of your concerns regarding marriage. I do think it is important for the wife to still pay attention to her husband after children--of course, I also think it's important for husbands to pay more attention to their wives than to their work (a common problem for many married women I know). It's all about balance. That being said, I have to note the irony I find in your (above) comment: speaking of crybabies, don't you think the sentiment "My wife is paying more attention to my newborn than to me" is a little pathetic? I understand wanting attention, but guess what? When kids come into the picture, it's no longer all about you. Oh, and as far as the comments concerning wives staying at home with the baby to get out of their half of the financial responsibility: you must be joking. If I ever have children, someone is going to be staying with them for at least the first five years, or so. Either the husband and I both work and take shifts that vary in order for one of us to always be with the kids, or one of us is staying home. I certainly don't mind working--I'd much rather work than stay at home with kids and keep house. My mom did it, and, let me tell you, she never stopped working: keeping a clean house, raising kids, having breakfast, lunch, and dinner on the table takes work. If my husband wants to do all that while I go work from 9 to 5: perfect. I'll bring home the bacon as long as someone is home to cook it. I'm not interested in spoiling my kids, but children shouldn't be raised by the school systems/government, nor should they be raised by strangers. Why the hell even bother having kids if you aren't going to take responsibility for their upbringing? Edited March 27, 2010 by always_searching
Author Mr White Posted March 27, 2010 Author Posted March 27, 2010 First of all, I understand and agree with much of your concerns regarding marriage. I do think it is important for the wife to still pay attention to her husband after children--of course, I also think it's important for husbands to pay more attention to their wives than to their work (a common problem for many married women I know). It's all about balance. That being said, I have to note the irony I find in your (above) comment: speaking of crybabies, don't you think the sentiment "My wife is paying more attention to my newborn than to me" is a little pathetic? I understand wanting attention, but guess what? When kids come into the picture, it's no longer all about you. Oh, and as far as the comments concerning wives staying at home with the baby to get out of their half of the financial responsibility: you must be joking. If I ever have children, someone is going to be staying with them for at least the first five years, or so. Either the husband and I both work and take shifts that vary in order for one of us to always be with the kids, or one of us is staying home. I certainly don't mind working--I'd much rather work than stay at home with kids and keep house. My mom did it, and, let me tell you, she never stopped working: keeping a clean house, raising kids, having breakfast, lunch, and dinner on the table takes work. If my husband wants to do all that while I go work from 9 to 5: perfect. I'll bring home the bacon as long as someone is home to cook it. I'm not interested in spoiling my kids, but children shouldn't be raised by the school systems/government, nor should they be raised by strangers. Why the hell even bother having kids if you aren't going to take responsibility for their upbringing? Well, this is precisely the type of forceful view that confirms my fears - per the above, it is your way or the highway as far as parenting is concerned. Just because you are a mother and a woman doesn't mean that your parenting expertise is any better than that of a man. And by the way, there isn't anything unnatural in having the kid go to daycare beyond 1 year or so. If anything is unnatural, it is having it stuck alone with his mommy in an isolated suburban house - with zero social interaction with "strangers", zero abilitly to cope, and extremely limited amount of stimulation provided my 1 person. So, I'm certainly not rebelling against having to take responsibility and do the best for your kids - well duh, of course I will. Surrendering your life and making the kid the center of the universe certainly doesn't do anybody any good, however, nor anybody should be expected to do it. After the kid is fed, clothed, and provided with sufficient amount of positive interaction and bonding with the parents, their job is done. A kid is not a pet, nor your best friend, but a future adult who has very little time to learn the skills to function independently. Overparenting doesn't help with that either. I just recently read a meta-analysis of the effects of different parenting strategies, the the conclusion, much like dictated by common sense is that too much of anything is harmful (e.g. too much attention, or too much-self-reliance). So, neglects is just as despicable as overparenting, except it seems many people get away with it because somehow it became okay to sacrifice everything at the altar of the kid, and everybody suffers in the process (the kid included). Balance is key, and thus I think that it is perfectly sensible for husbands to raise a stink when they feel that the balance is unjustifiably tilted towards overparenting, rather than resign to shaming and just go with it..
Author Mr White Posted March 27, 2010 Author Posted March 27, 2010 Mr. White, taking care of a new born is exhausting. Why don't you offer to baby sit for your friends to give them a night off so they can go out, have some fun, and reconnect? If you're not part of the solution, you're part of the problem. Excellent, I'd love to do that, except they are on the other side of the ocean. Plus even if they weren't we'd still need to go through the battle of convincing the mother that the world will not come to an end if Uncle White stays with the kid for a few hours.
Author Mr White Posted March 27, 2010 Author Posted March 27, 2010 Of course it is hard to raise children. It is a tremendous responsibility. Money and comforts don't negate that--and in ways can make it more complicated. But who is complaining? What I'm hearing is men complaining, because they expect more from their wives than they used to when times were "simpler". Since there is money and leisure time (for some), they expect their wives to leave children in care and go be "wifey" instead of "mommy" for a few hours (or even for a few days). It is more pressure on the wife to be all things to all people. In times past, this just was not an option or an issue for most, and the men had more reasonable expectations. You had your couple time after the kids were in bed, and you made it count. This one can be argued either way. Back in the day maybe men't expectations were more realistic, but that included the expectation to go to work, and then go back home to a spotless house and a ready dinner. I bet many men could be content with that, even if their wife didn't transform into Marylin Monroe upon arrival. Today, very few men come back to a spotless house. They come back to a messy house and an angry wife who, instead of a martini, hands them the baby and goes to sleep because she's been with the baby "all day". So, double whammy.
xxoo Posted March 27, 2010 Posted March 27, 2010 This one can be argued either way. Back in the day maybe men't expectations were more realistic, but that included the expectation to go to work, and then go back home to a spotless house and a ready dinner. I bet many men could be content with that, even if their wife didn't transform into Marylin Monroe upon arrival. Today, very few men come back to a spotless house. They come back to a messy house and an angry wife who, instead of a martini, hands them the baby and goes to sleep because she's been with the baby "all day". So, double whammy. There is a huge range between spotless house/ready dinner and messy house/angry wife. Our home falls in the passable house/ready dinner category . But, again, in this example you are mentioning "baby". My husband sometimes came home to a messy house/frazzled wife/no dinner when we had a baby. Then again, in a 24 hour period with a high needs baby (some are tougher than others, but high needs isn't exactly "rare"), I commonly had very little sleep, and was lucky to shower, pee, and eat without listening to the baby cry. So, yeah, when dad comes home--I was ready for hand off! After that: shower and pee real quick, down some grub, and furiously try to get something done around the house before the next nursing session. Life with children (not babies) is significantly different. The cleaning gets done, even if things don't stay clean and tidy (kids!). Cooking is manageable. Kids sleep more consistent hours, allowing time for mom and dad to spend together. Balance returns. Patience, empathy, and realistic expectations go a long way.
mem11363 Posted March 27, 2010 Posted March 27, 2010 When we met we both earned about the same and made good money for our ages. When we had kids I did not WANT 100 percent of the financial responsibility. We fought about it. She prevailed. I wanted 2 kids - she wanted 3. We had 3. Our first child took 2 two hour naps a day and slept through the night. I am NOT a messy guy and I like to cook. While we had one child - her life was definitely easier then mine and she will tell you so without hesitation. And I will also say that she is a great mom and would read the kids the same book 50 times in a row if they asked or play candy land 100 times in a row if they wanted even though she hated that game. She was 10 times better in her role then I would have been. This whole idea of men being beholden to women because the women have a 7/24 job is a fine concept but in reality: - There is a HUGE difference between a 6 month old and a 7 year old in terms of labor intensiveness. - And between an easy kid and a difficult kid. And between a difficult kid and a special needs kid. - Between 1 child and 4 children So if you have 4 preschool kids then you trump ANY person working for money in terms of workload. If you have 1 easy child who is 2 years old and a hard working husband then IME your life is in a very real sense easier then his. As for the "house". I have been the house husband for the last year plus. So lets start with the whole 7/24 thing. You are ON CALL 7/24 sure. But actual work hours can be a LOT less then 60 hours a week and as for what is a work hour well lets address that. If I spend 3 hours a day on the house - which is the MOST it takes - on the house - how do I compute hours worked when: - I watch tv while folding the laundry which is the only labor intensive part. Sorry doesn't feel like work. - I can unload the dishwasher while on the phone with friends. Same for picking up the house a bit - using my telephone headset. If I do a bunch of "work" while chatting with friends and watching tv how does that compare to a stressful job dealing with demanding customers? Not saying it is effortless - I AM saying that it feels political when I read how women have it so hard and men have it so easy. On the revenue side: - There is a difference between a 40 hour work week and a 60 - Between a low travel job and a high travel job - Just as there is a huge difference between being a librarian and being a technology consultant in stress level. So instead of speaking in gross generalizations I will be specific. In my house: - When we had 1 child her life was easier. - When we had 2 children her life was still easier since the first was almost 5 when the second was born. - When we had 3 children 2 of whom were quite young her job was harder and I should have helped more - When all 3 of them were in school full time her job became easier again - details below. Fast forward 13 years: - All 3 kids are now in school - youngest is in first grade - I am now working a job that is very difficult and emotionally draining - and yes time consuming. - She is taking great care of the kids - as always - but treats any extra requests I have as a very low priority We had intense conflict over this last bit - for over a year - at which point she made my requests a high priority - they were never things that were very time consuming - things like getting me a house key made. And you know what I emotionally started to burn out ON MY MARRIAGE. Because I really started to feel used. And - amazingly - I got so angry about it - that it did effect our sex life for a while - I had started to smoke again - she said she hated kissing me because of the smoke - and I refused to quit for a year until I felt like there was some level of work load equilibrium. So I can understand how the reverse is true - when the reverse REALLY is true. I just don't think you need to address the specifics of the situation and not have a blanket statement comparing child rearing to working outside the home. There is a huge range between spotless house/ready dinner and messy house/angry wife. Our home falls in the passable house/ready dinner category . But, again, in this example you are mentioning "baby". My husband sometimes came home to a messy house/frazzled wife/no dinner when we had a baby. Then again, in a 24 hour period with a high needs baby (some are tougher than others, but high needs isn't exactly "rare"), I commonly had very little sleep, and was lucky to shower, pee, and eat without listening to the baby cry. So, yeah, when dad comes home--I was ready for hand off! After that: shower and pee real quick, down some grub, and furiously try to get something done around the house before the next nursing session. Life with children (not babies) is significantly different. The cleaning gets done, even if things don't stay clean and tidy (kids!). Cooking is manageable. Kids sleep more consistent hours, allowing time for mom and dad to spend together. Balance returns. Patience, empathy, and realistic expectations go a long way.
xxoo Posted March 27, 2010 Posted March 27, 2010 This whole idea of men being beholden to women because the women have a 7/24 job. I'm certainly not supportive of this idea at all. I'm just pointing out that there are genuinely times when both parents are so beholden to the baby/kids (different stages for different families) that both partners are working their tails off, and there is just too much work and too little time. It is a reality for most parents at some time or another. It sounds like the op (and maybe his friends) isn't prepared for that reality. Of course, the empathy, patience, and expectations need to flow in both directions. I also think it is extremely important to (mutually) assume the best of your partner. If you partner is not pulling their weight, work together to find out why and help your partner be their best. you need to address the specifics of the situation and not have a blanket statement comparing child rearing to working outside the home. I absolutely agree with this. Didn't mean to imply that at all
Author Mr White Posted March 27, 2010 Author Posted March 27, 2010 When we met we both earned about the same and made good money for our ages. When we had kids I did not WANT 100 percent of the financial responsibility. We fought about it. She prevailed. I wanted 2 kids - she wanted 3. We had 3. Our first child took 2 two hour naps a day and slept through the night. I am NOT a messy guy and I like to cook. While we had one child - her life was definitely easier then mine and she will tell you so without hesitation. And I will also say that she is a great mom and would read the kids the same book 50 times in a row if they asked or play candy land 100 times in a row if they wanted even though she hated that game. She was 10 times better in her role then I would have been. This whole idea of men being beholden to women because the women have a 7/24 job is a fine concept but in reality: - There is a HUGE difference between a 6 month old and a 7 year old in terms of labor intensiveness. - And between an easy kid and a difficult kid. And between a difficult kid and a special needs kid. - Between 1 child and 4 children So if you have 4 preschool kids then you trump ANY person working for money in terms of workload. If you have 1 easy child who is 2 years old and a hard working husband then IME your life is in a very real sense easier then his. As for the "house". I have been the house husband for the last year plus. So lets start with the whole 7/24 thing. You are ON CALL 7/24 sure. But actual work hours can be a LOT less then 60 hours a week and as for what is a work hour well lets address that. If I spend 3 hours a day on the house - which is the MOST it takes - on the house - how do I compute hours worked when: - I watch tv while folding the laundry which is the only labor intensive part. Sorry doesn't feel like work. - I can unload the dishwasher while on the phone with friends. Same for picking up the house a bit - using my telephone headset. If I do a bunch of "work" while chatting with friends and watching tv how does that compare to a stressful job dealing with demanding customers? Not saying it is effortless - I AM saying that it feels political when I read how women have it so hard and men have it so easy. On the revenue side: - There is a difference between a 40 hour work week and a 60 - Between a low travel job and a high travel job - Just as there is a huge difference between being a librarian and being a technology consultant in stress level. So instead of speaking in gross generalizations I will be specific. In my house: - When we had 1 child her life was easier. - When we had 2 children her life was still easier since the first was almost 5 when the second was born. - When we had 3 children 2 of whom were quite young her job was harder and I should have helped more - When all 3 of them were in school full time her job became easier again - details below. Fast forward 13 years: - All 3 kids are now in school - youngest is in first grade - I am now working a job that is very difficult and emotionally draining - and yes time consuming. - She is taking great care of the kids - as always - but treats any extra requests I have as a very low priority We had intense conflict over this last bit - for over a year - at which point she made my requests a high priority - they were never things that were very time consuming - things like getting me a house key made. And you know what I emotionally started to burn out ON MY MARRIAGE. Because I really started to feel used. And - amazingly - I got so angry about it - that it did effect our sex life for a while - I had started to smoke again - she said she hated kissing me because of the smoke - and I refused to quit for a year until I felt like there was some level of work load equilibrium. So I can understand how the reverse is true - when the reverse REALLY is true. I just don't think you need to address the specifics of the situation and not have a blanket statement comparing child rearing to working outside the home. Quoted for telling it like it is. Clearly, these are waters that are navigable, and (more ore less) fair solutions are achievable. But even rock-solid guy like mem shows the source of resentment ==> having to go on a protracted battle (in his case - he got lucky, just a year) just to restore some semblance of equilibrium. When you live with someone who supposedly loves you, you shouldn't feel the need to defend your rights:mad:. And he is among the lucky ones. Many don't even try for fear of being steamrolled for being "selfish" and "insensitive" to women's and mother's "plight' .
mem11363 Posted March 27, 2010 Posted March 27, 2010 1. Hands down - marrying my wife was the BEST thing I ever did 2. She absolutely turned me into the man I am 3. I emphasize our conflicts because I think they are instructional - some of our conflicts were over the kids - she taught me to be more nurturing and less harsh. I encouraged her to be more firm when needed. She would have gotten lost in kid world if I had let her - I would have let them fend for themselves when they turned 5 - clearly she was WAY closer to the ideal then I was. I DO talk about having a spine because I think you need to. I wanted a husband/wife vacation to yosemite/sequoia and had wanted it for 5 years. I would raise it once a year and then and she would put me off because she didn't want to leave the kids. When our 3rd and last child was born I mentioned the vacay again and she told me that she would go when our youngest was 6 - damn it was going to be another 5 years. So all I did was tell her I was really looking forward to taking her there whenever she got to the point she was comfortable leaving the kids with their grandparents and in the meantime I was going to do the yosemite/sequoia vacay with my friend Mark. And that to be fair to her - she was welcome to go away for a week with a GF wherever she wanted while I took a week off work and watched the kids. I wasn't angry - I wasn't playing a game. I simply wasn't waiting ANOTHER 5 years to go to the national parks for a week. A couple days later she came to me and asked if we could bring the youngest to the parks with us - we had this great baby backpack that our then 8 month old loved. And our baby also slept like a trooper every night so I knew we could have baby AND romance on the trip. I happily said yes - and a few months later we had one of the best vacations of our marriage. And our little girl who was then 1, gurgled away as she rode the backpack for a full week and quietly slept in her crib at night while mom and dad..... My wife NEVER would have offered that as an option unless faced with the idea of me going myself and having a great time without her. That isn't because she is a bad wife - she is a GREAT wife. It is because it was really hard for her to leave the kids. She is super crazily committed to them - which means I am a very lucky man and I know that. Still - she also knew that she could either go with me or watch me go without her. There was no way she could refuse my plan to go with Mark since I had offered her a reciprocal trip. I bring this up as an example of how we pulled each other to the middle in a very nice way. And that became the basis for us going on vacay as a couple every few years which was delightful for both of us - and for our marriage. Quoted for telling it like it is. Clearly, these are waters that are navigable, and (more ore less) fair solutions are achievable. But even rock-solid guy like mem shows the source of resentment ==> having to go on a protracted battle (in his case - he got lucky, just a year) just to restore some semblance of equilibrium. When you live with someone who supposedly loves you, you shouldn't feel the need to defend your rights:mad:. And he is among the lucky ones. Many don't even try for fear of being steamrolled for being "selfish" and "insensitive" to women's and mother's "plight' .
Rearden Metal Posted March 27, 2010 Posted March 27, 2010 Find and marry someone like me; desperate for sex, trained chef who will cook for you every night, financially responsible (I'm self-employed), keeps the house clean, and who NEVER wants children. :laugh: Where do I sign up?
mem11363 Posted March 27, 2010 Posted March 27, 2010 I didn't mean to seem harsh - you truly do seem very fair - and like a very good wife. I'm certainly not supportive of this idea at all. I'm just pointing out that there are genuinely times when both parents are so beholden to the baby/kids (different stages for different families) that both partners are working their tails off, and there is just too much work and too little time. It is a reality for most parents at some time or another. It sounds like the op (and maybe his friends) isn't prepared for that reality. Of course, the empathy, patience, and expectations need to flow in both directions. I also think it is extremely important to (mutually) assume the best of your partner. If you partner is not pulling their weight, work together to find out why and help your partner be their best. I absolutely agree with this. Didn't mean to imply that at all
always_searching Posted March 27, 2010 Posted March 27, 2010 Well, this is precisely the type of forceful view that confirms my fears - per the above, it is your way or the highway as far as parenting is concerned. Just because you are a mother and a woman doesn't mean that your parenting expertise is any better than that of a man. Well, I'm not a mother. I am a woman who knows how she wants to raise her future children and would not marry someone who doesn't wish to raise them in a similar fashion. And by the way, there isn't anything unnatural in having the kid go to daycare beyond 1 year or so. If anything is unnatural, it is having it stuck alone with his mommy in an isolated suburban house - with zero social interaction with "strangers", zero abilitly to cope, and extremely limited amount of stimulation provided my 1 person. Nowhere in my post did I suggest that it would be okay for the mother to isolate her children from interacting with other people. I think that interaction with other children and even other adults is extremely important for the development of children. What I think is harmful is having a child just to throw him or her into the care of strangers at such a young age--that's not what being a parent is about. I suppose you would rather leave punishment, discipline, instilment of moral values, etc. up to the state as well. Again, why bother having kids if you aren't going to take an active role in their development? If your interest in children is mainly that you wish to "pass on your seed", why not just donate your sperm? You'll get money, help some poor lonely woman, lesbian couple, or woman who is with an infertile man get pregnant, AND not have to worry about raising the child. It's a win-win for you. Or perhaps you want a child because you are an educated man (which clearly you are--I'd be willing to bet you're current job is even in academia, because you have a pertentious and demeaning way of writing that indicates such a profession), who wishes to be married and have 1.5 children for the façade of it all. It looks good to your peers to have the ability to juggle family with a prestigious career, doesn't it? Honestly, if I seem overly "forceful", as you have pointed out, it is because I am picking up on your obvious distaste for women and apparent disinterest in actually raising your future children. (I'm surprised you have a girlfriend and that you are even considering having children with your current attitude toward both.) I think if this is really your take on women and raising children, you should avoid marriage and definitely not have children. So, I'm certainly not rebelling against having to take responsibility and do the best for your kids - well duh, of course I will. Surrendering your life and making the kid the center of the universe certainly doesn't do anybody any good, however, nor anybody should be expected to do it. After the kid is fed, clothed, and provided with sufficient amount of positive interaction and bonding with the parents, their job is done. A kid is not a pet, nor your best friend, but a future adult who has very little time to learn the skills to function independently. Overparenting doesn't help with that either. Again, I am not one to advocate for spoiling children. Nor do I think that children should be viewed as friends or pets, but they are not the responsibility of the state--they are your responsibility. I'm not sure how you can say you'll claim responsibility for them, if your plan is to throw them into the bosom of the state at one year of age. I just recently read a meta-analysis of the effects of different parenting strategies, the the conclusion, much like dictated by common sense is that too much of anything is harmful (e.g. too much attention, or too much-self-reliance). So, neglects is just as despicable as overparenting, except it seems many people get away with it because somehow it became okay to sacrifice everything at the altar of the kid, and everybody suffers in the process (the kid included). Balance is key, and thus I think that it is perfectly sensible for husbands to raise a stink when they feel that the balance is unjustifiably tilted towards overparenting, rather than resign to shaming and just go with it. Again, I never suggested spoiling or coddling your children is an effective means of parenting. However, parenting does involve your actually being a parent. Not just the person who clothes and feeds your kids. You have a responsibility for their upbringing--to teach them to be positive contributions to society; give them a moral upbringing; provide a well-rounded education; etc. That involves active parenting that you are, apparently, not willing to provide.
xxoo Posted March 27, 2010 Posted March 27, 2010 I didn't mean to seem harsh - you truly do seem very fair - and like a very good wife. Thanks, mem, that's kind. I have my faults, but my intentions are good. I really want my husband to enjoy our family as much as I do.
Author Mr White Posted March 30, 2010 Author Posted March 30, 2010 Well, I'm not a mother. I am a woman who knows how she wants to raise her future children and would not marry someone who doesn't wish to raise them in a similar fashion. Nowhere in my post did I suggest that it would be okay for the mother to isolate her children from interacting with other people. I think that interaction with other children and even other adults is extremely important for the development of children. What I think is harmful is having a child just to throw him or her into the care of strangers at such a young age--that's not what being a parent is about. I suppose you would rather leave punishment, discipline, instilment of moral values, etc. up to the state as well. Again, why bother having kids if you aren't going to take an active role in their development? If your interest in children is mainly that you wish to "pass on your seed", why not just donate your sperm? You'll get money, help some poor lonely woman, lesbian couple, or woman who is with an infertile man get pregnant, AND not have to worry about raising the child. It's a win-win for you. Or perhaps you want a child because you are an educated man (which clearly you are--I'd be willing to bet you're current job is even in academia, because you have a pertentious and demeaning way of writing that indicates such a profession), who wishes to be married and have 1.5 children for the façade of it all. It looks good to your peers to have the ability to juggle family with a prestigious career, doesn't it? Honestly, if I seem overly "forceful", as you have pointed out, it is because I am picking up on your obvious distaste for women and apparent disinterest in actually raising your future children. (I'm surprised you have a girlfriend and that you are even considering having children with your current attitude toward both.) I think if this is really your take on women and raising children, you should avoid marriage and definitely not have children. Again, I am not one to advocate for spoiling children. Nor do I think that children should be viewed as friends or pets, but they are not the responsibility of the state--they are your responsibility. I'm not sure how you can say you'll claim responsibility for them, if your plan is to throw them into the bosom of the state at one year of age. Again, I never suggested spoiling or coddling your children is an effective means of parenting. However, parenting does involve your actually being a parent. Not just the person who clothes and feeds your kids. You have a responsibility for their upbringing--to teach them to be positive contributions to society; give them a moral upbringing; provide a well-rounded education; etc. That involves active parenting that you are, apparently, not willing to provide. Yep, that's how it starts - when one of the parties has ALL the answers (by virtue of being a woman). It's all downhill from there. But since I'm clearly not a man enough, nor a (potential) parent enough, I clearly have nothing more to contribute to this discussion, nor care to dignify cheap rhetorical tricks by treating them as actual arguments.
Author Mr White Posted March 30, 2010 Author Posted March 30, 2010 1. Hands down - marrying my wife was the BEST thing I ever did 2. She absolutely turned me into the man I am 3. I emphasize our conflicts because I think they are instructional - some of our conflicts were over the kids - she taught me to be more nurturing and less harsh. I encouraged her to be more firm when needed. She would have gotten lost in kid world if I had let her - I would have let them fend for themselves when they turned 5 - clearly she was WAY closer to the ideal then I was. I DO talk about having a spine because I think you need to. I wanted a husband/wife vacation to yosemite/sequoia and had wanted it for 5 years. I would raise it once a year and then and she would put me off because she didn't want to leave the kids. When our 3rd and last child was born I mentioned the vacay again and she told me that she would go when our youngest was 6 - damn it was going to be another 5 years. So all I did was tell her I was really looking forward to taking her there whenever she got to the point she was comfortable leaving the kids with their grandparents and in the meantime I was going to do the yosemite/sequoia vacay with my friend Mark. And that to be fair to her - she was welcome to go away for a week with a GF wherever she wanted while I took a week off work and watched the kids. I wasn't angry - I wasn't playing a game. I simply wasn't waiting ANOTHER 5 years to go to the national parks for a week. A couple days later she came to me and asked if we could bring the youngest to the parks with us - we had this great baby backpack that our then 8 month old loved. And our baby also slept like a trooper every night so I knew we could have baby AND romance on the trip. I happily said yes - and a few months later we had one of the best vacations of our marriage. And our little girl who was then 1, gurgled away as she rode the backpack for a full week and quietly slept in her crib at night while mom and dad..... My wife NEVER would have offered that as an option unless faced with the idea of me going myself and having a great time without her. That isn't because she is a bad wife - she is a GREAT wife. It is because it was really hard for her to leave the kids. She is super crazily committed to them - which means I am a very lucky man and I know that. Still - she also knew that she could either go with me or watch me go without her. There was no way she could refuse my plan to go with Mark since I had offered her a reciprocal trip. I bring this up as an example of how we pulled each other to the middle in a very nice way. And that became the basis for us going on vacay as a couple every few years which was delightful for both of us - and for our marriage. I'm happy for you, I should find a way to save the posts about your marriage, might come in handy one day. My gf is brilliant - she's got plenty of balls to call me on my **** (when necessary), but most of the time she's simply patient and sweet, which is really the much more important factor, and all that it takes for me to recognize when I'm wrong (when it's actually true); so, most of the time this happens even without any conflict. Similarly, she has no problem admitting when she's wrong.
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