angie2443 Posted March 18, 2010 Posted March 18, 2010 I'd like to know where these "good old days" occurred. Was this also the time when people routinely institutionalized anyone who was not considered "normal"? Was this the time when it was impossible to get birth control and many women died of exhaustion because they simply fell pregnant too many times, or their uteruses just sort of fell out of their vaginas? The "good old days" as you all seem to laud - produced the people who are parenting now. So, I guess it wasn't all that great back then. No formula feeding, no such thing as spousal abuse in the court system, no child labor laws. Yes, it was an excellent time, indeed. Thankfully I had a father who was born in 1929, and a mother from a third world country, so I am actually aware of the REALITY of the world that existed in the "Good Old Days". What the above postersl are referring to is a fantasy that never existed. I agree. I, for one, am thankful that I wasn't living during the "good old days".
xxoo Posted March 18, 2010 Posted March 18, 2010 I agree. I, for one, am thankful that I wasn't living during the "good old days". Yep. And the kids weren't better behaved in the "good old days", either. Kids always were, and always will be, a PITA sometimes And, it isn't like the average, working class husband and wife enjoyed all sorts of kid-free leisure in the "good old days", either. For the masses, the business of raising a family is largely about working to support the family, and then crashing into bed at night. Welcome to adulthood These threads reek of privilege to me. If you have time and money to be weighing kid-free entertainment vs. staying home with the kids, you are ahead of most of the world. Same with the choice of work+big house or SAH+small house, and the choice between dvd players or none in your 2-car family. Really, these are problems of luxury.
WalkInThePark Posted March 19, 2010 Posted March 19, 2010 This is exactly what today's kids need. This type of discipline. Parents don't understand they are growing a bunch of self entitlted brats. The good thing was that you got a structure which created a safe environment for you as a kid. You knew what was acceptable and what was not. At the same time, we had a lot of freedom. During the summer holiday, we were outside playing in the neighbourhood and when it was time to go home, my mother just called us. She knew we were somewhere around but not exactly where. But she also knew that we were safe because whatever adult would see us, would notice if something was not right and ask us what was up.
Author Mr White Posted March 19, 2010 Author Posted March 19, 2010 I agree with your girlfriend on this one. "Marriage first" bothers me as much as "kids first". The reality is, needs are not static. There are times when kids come first, and times when the spouse comes first. There are times when I come first, or I will have nothing left for my husband and kids. You can't know exactly how that will all work out until you actually have the spouse and kids, though. You can, however, compare specific ideals: value double income or a stay-home parent? Value big home or lots of family time? Etc. Right, good points. I don't think anybody would have problems taking 'hits' when necessary and taking a break - individually or jointly - when necessary. I think the only way to achieve this is really through a blunt conversation. Insisting on any rigid 'pecking order' at all times will probably cause trouble. But is also goes deeper than that - Carhil once described a very subtle hypothetical situation and the implications of different actions by parent - say a kid is sick in a hospital, and the mom gets there first, the father gets there later. There are many things the mom could do upon his arrival: remain fixated on the child and update the father in passing, or, she can get up, rush to him to hug him and update him while they get back to the child, etc. Each scenario reveals different dynamics some much healthier than others. Basically it's like talking about sex and money. If you don't put it out there, it will explode eventually (or people will just be very miserable). I feel super bad for my boss - it is a GIVEN that he can't do anything on the weekends by himself, EVER - he just has wife and kids, and that's that. I'm baffled that he won't or can't have a simple conversation with his wife about that.
Author Mr White Posted March 19, 2010 Author Posted March 19, 2010 (edited) Mr. White, NONE of my friends with children turned out like yours did. I think part of the problem is the "needy" men who are used to being "taken care of" by their women and become very resentful and petulant when a time comes that their needs are not such a big deal. We used to call it "big baby syndrome." ("We" refers to my ex husband and myself ... he capitulated to it, but also had the objectivity to see this in himself and even laugh about it. And no, this was not a contributing factor to the eventual end of our marriage.) So many people seem unable to look at their part in this world as part of a giant continuum. When I was in high school, a lot of moms still stayed home and the dads worked. I was raised to think I could "do it all." I "did it all." It was bogus. I don't think very many people, men or women, are excellent at parenting at the same time as being kick ass in demanding careers. One or the other is likely to suffer. This time in our culture seems to be sort of a back lash phase. Many parents, more mothers than dads, do "over parent" and I think it's because they feel guilty for not going forward with the career so they make their kids & kids activities full time jobs. Hard core soccer moms. It's a fairly new phenomena. Back in my young days, there was no such thing in spite of the many "full time" moms / housewives. We walked or rode our bikes to sports, friends, etc. There was no such thing as a "play date" or "Gymboree." Not that these things are necessarily bad ... or that our moms, in the olden days, drinking martinis on the deck while the kids did whatever they wanted to in town, were doing better. Couples being conscious about what they are doing and how they are doing it, and accepting waxing and waning of priorities and changing needs within the family, are the key. I think. This could be true... As much as I hate to admit it, the guy in question is a bit of a mamma's boy. Great guy, but his mom was always there for him to bail him out of any significant hardship... But still - it is a matter of extent. I've been independent & making my own money since the age of 16, but I'd still be pissed if my future wife focuses on the child-rearing aspect beyond what is reasonable. The definition of reasonable varies, of course, but it is safe to say that if everything else in your life spins out of control because of parenting, you are probably doing something wrong. More generally, it is really not the "quantity" of involvement, rather than "the quality" that matters. Today, everything is too much "dumbed down" for children, which increases the volume of everything, but reduces the quality. Here is a literal example: my math textbooks from high school back in the day were 5% (sic! --> 5%) of the thickness of the contemporary math texbooks, yet i knew more math and better, than your today's student. The only reason why today's textbooks are so THICK is just because they have broken up the concepts into a ridiculous level of detail and redundancy, while actually reducing the volume of useful material; back in the day we studied the general principles and we learned math faster and better. This is a random analogy, but I think it applies to many areas of parenting, including the elaborate "birthday parties":rolleyes: As for career vs parenting, I'm not sure this is such a big deal --> unless we are talking about the few professions with truly crazy hours (finance, law, medicine), most people have pretty sane and predictable 9 to 5 lives. The kid is at school or at childcare during the business hours, and the whole family is together after and on weekends. The two incomes can also provide little conveniences as domestic help every once in a while. It is possible to live on one income, but it will NOT be fun - neither comfortable, nor secure... Edited March 19, 2010 by Mr White
Author Mr White Posted March 19, 2010 Author Posted March 19, 2010 Yep. And the kids weren't better behaved in the "good old days", either. Kids always were, and always will be, a PITA sometimes And, it isn't like the average, working class husband and wife enjoyed all sorts of kid-free leisure in the "good old days", either. For the masses, the business of raising a family is largely about working to support the family, and then crashing into bed at night. Welcome to adulthood These threads reek of privilege to me. If you have time and money to be weighing kid-free entertainment vs. staying home with the kids, you are ahead of most of the world. Same with the choice of work+big house or SAH+small house, and the choice between dvd players or none in your 2-car family. Really, these are problems of luxury. Depends which era are we talking about. The pre-war decades were yes, pretty poor for most of the population and life was really a hardship. But the post-war prosperity - up until the 60s, were a different story. One income was enough, the adults did have plenty of leisure time. In any case, this is really partly the source of my angst - even with the today's complications, we are safer, richer, and more comfortable than ever in history - yet we STILL complain about how hard it is to raise children. Not to mention that we're talking about 2-3 children - not 5 or 6...
Author Mr White Posted March 19, 2010 Author Posted March 19, 2010 And that's another thing. Some women say they want to stay home and raise the kids but when the kids all go off to school they don't go out and get a job. They never go back to work. This happens too, and I find it infuriating, particularly when it is unilateral decision (which it almost always is). There is really no reason for the mother to be full time at home once the kid is 1 year old or so - i.e. old enough for daycare. If anything, isolating him or her at home with his mom rather than learning to socialize with other people and kids from an early age will do more harm than good. In the past, when women did stay at home, they still didn't fawn over the kids - kids hung out with other kids and extended family while the woman took care of the household, which was much harder to do than it is today.
Spark1111 Posted March 19, 2010 Posted March 19, 2010 I do not think there is any job more important on the planet than raising children well. It is also important to sustain the marital relationship. I would think most men would want a great mother for their children, as opposed to someone who meets all of their needs and lets the children's slide. Balance is key, IMHO. But where ever possible, I think you need to remove "mommy" from the nest once in a while, whether it be date night, a weekend away, etc. so she can reverse gears from the all encompassing and consuming "mommy" role and BEGIN TO FEEL LIKE A WOMAN again. This is difficult for many "good mothers" to do. Our biology does differ, and we cannot shift this gear as easily as many men do. It can be HARD to feel sexual after a day of spit up, laundry, cooking, whining and crying going on. Don't believe me? Just try it sometime.
xxoo Posted March 19, 2010 Posted March 19, 2010 In any case, this is really partly the source of my angst - even with the today's complications, we are safer, richer, and more comfortable than ever in history - yet we STILL complain about how hard it is to raise children. Not to mention that we're talking about 2-3 children - not 5 or 6... Of course it is hard to raise children. It is a tremendous responsibility. Money and comforts don't negate that--and in ways can make it more complicated. But who is complaining? What I'm hearing is men complaining, because they expect more from their wives than they used to when times were "simpler". Since there is money and leisure time (for some), they expect their wives to leave children in care and go be "wifey" instead of "mommy" for a few hours (or even for a few days). It is more pressure on the wife to be all things to all people. In times past, this just was not an option or an issue for most, and the men had more reasonable expectations. You had your couple time after the kids were in bed, and you made it count.
xxoo Posted March 19, 2010 Posted March 19, 2010 There is really no reason for the mother to be full time at home once the kid is 1 year old or so - i.e. old enough for daycare. If anything, isolating him or her at home with his mom rather than learning to socialize with other people and kids from an early age will do more harm than good. Wow. This is just misinformed. Daycare is important and useful and good, but it is not superior to home with a parent (notice I didn't say it was inferior, either). Being home doesn't mean living in a bubble. My kids were well socialized in the community. I will argue that the community is better at socializing children than daycare, because it is comprised of people of all ages. 2 year olds don't learn many good social skills from other 2 year olds
Author Mr White Posted March 19, 2010 Author Posted March 19, 2010 Wow. This is just misinformed. Daycare is important and useful and good, but it is not superior to home with a parent (notice I didn't say it was inferior, either). Being home doesn't mean living in a bubble. My kids were well socialized in the community. I will argue that the community is better at socializing children than daycare, because it is comprised of people of all ages. 2 year olds don't learn many good social skills from other 2 year olds Fine, but how much "community" do you really see in your typical isolated suburban enclave where most people don't even know their neighbors? Sure, daycare is not the answer to all socialization problems, but measured assessment is not the same as soccer moms passionately depicting daycare as the mother of all evils (pun intended), perhaps in a vain attempt to justify the their dubious decision/desire not to work.
xxoo Posted March 19, 2010 Posted March 19, 2010 I agree that daycare--and the parents who use it--get a bad rap from other parents. I hate the "mommy wars", and won't sit by listening to that crap. But daycare isn't right for every family, every parent, or every kid, and that is valid, too. As an outsider, you really can't judge which children should or should not be in daycare. As for community, the parks and playgrounds are typically meeting grounds for kids and moms during the workday. And then there are all the errands we run together every week: supermarket, bank, etc. (cue Sesame Street's "These are the people in my neighbor, in my neighborhood, in my nei-bor-hood, oh......")
stillafool Posted March 19, 2010 Posted March 19, 2010 The good thing was that you got a structure which created a safe environment for you as a kid. You knew what was acceptable and what was not. At the same time, we had a lot of freedom. During the summer holiday, we were outside playing in the neighbourhood and when it was time to go home, my mother just called us. She knew we were somewhere around but not exactly where. But she also knew that we were safe because whatever adult would see us, would notice if something was not right and ask us what was up. Yes, and you are right during the summer we were always outside playing, making up games, kids don't do this anymore. It's as if they have to be entertained at all times. Expensive toys and such are nice, but I think those type of activities don't always feed and develop one's imagination. I think that is another reason so many kids are overweight.
stillafool Posted March 19, 2010 Posted March 19, 2010 . You had your couple time after the kids were in bed, and you made it count. Can't couples with kids still do this?
xxoo Posted March 19, 2010 Posted March 19, 2010 Can't couples with kids still do this? Yes, of course. We do! But it sounds like these men aren't satisfied with that anymore. They want more...want the husband/wife relationship first all the time. And that isn't reasonable, imo.
mem11363 Posted March 20, 2010 Posted March 20, 2010 Marriage - is the single biggest amplifier in life. If you really truly have your sheet together, it makes your life twice as good. If you DON'T have your sheet together - the other person either leaves you after a while or they STAY and emotionally overpower you. Which is a train wreck for both men and women. After our third child we did have a serious priority issue and we worked on it until it was resolved. I stayed on the same theme with my wife until I was accommodated: Me to her: - you are my highest priority - the kids are my second - I am my third - extended family is a distant fourth Me to her: Your priorities: - the kids are first (I am perfectly fine with this) - you are disorganized and so my needs are deprioritized - this is not acceptable - fix it I actually think the ONLY way this works out well is if: - you marry someone who is really into you - you marry someone you are really into - you set some clear expectations BEFORE marriage about what is and is not acceptable behavior on your part AND her part - you are willing to put your needs third - you really make the effort to be a great partner when your needs ARE generally speaking being met - you are willing to fight like the devil to not get deprioritized off the radar and are ready able and willing to fight like a girl to get what you want The last one is huge. Girls don't fight like boys. They are not wired for physical combat - less than 1 percent of women marry smaller men - so they HAVE to be good at verbal / emotional conflict. In fact they excel at it. You have to learn how to map male alpha behavior into a female variant of it or you will get slowly and steadily emasculated. If you DO learn this stuff - then your wife turns you into a better man than you ever possibly could have become on your own. I know mine did. If however you let your wife slowly overpower you.... It's really sad, just got a letter from my best friend back in the day, married, 2 kids, one new born. Like millions of men before him, wonders what the hell happened to his wife after the kids came along. Married a great, ambitious, sane, sexy woman. The kids come along, she transforms in a kid-obsessed monster incapable of thinking of doing anything unless it involves the kids. I like kids, and want them, but that's a twisted way to live. Most men don't even attempt to fight it, since who wants to be shamed into not having "what's best for the kids" in mind:rolleyes:. Conversely, most men want to be devoted parents AND husbands. What they resent is the sudden change of behavior after marriage, and especially after kids, which typically result in a situation where they don't effin matter anymore - and that's the situation of every.single.married.man.I.know. I really want to get married, but all the marriages I have observed follow the exact same pattern, and I don't want to taste this particular version of marriage. There is a huge difference between being a well-adjusted, responsible parent, and a crazy person that will destroy the world for no good reason other than she can't - or doesn't want - to think about anything other than her offspring. I'm tired of hearing how "hard" it is to raise kids. My mom raised two kids while working full time with no husband, yet listening to the "plight" of present day parents in intact families they are more miserable than the 19th century pioneers in the wild west . It's hard, get over it, so is life. The life of 90% of the world population is way harder than we can even imagine, kids or no kids. What a bunch of crybabies we've turned into.
lkjh Posted March 20, 2010 Posted March 20, 2010 Not all relationships end up this way - and not all people want kids. My SO and myself decided to remain child-free. I never had any parental instincts and I told my BF that when we started dating - so he knew upfront. Life an circumstances have changed, but the change of social conventions is much slower unfortunately - so many many people spend their lives chasing their won tail in a sense... From what I see in some families, many women "over-mother" their kids only to justify staying at home a few years longer (and in this way avoiding having to shoulder their share of financial responsibility...). Right, kids today need to know a hell of a lot more than 20,000 years back, but they also mature faster. There is no need to treat a 15 year old as a 5 year old - IMO it is more damage than good. It is a social taboo for parents to not want to sacrifice themselves for their kids - many forget that overdoing it leads to miserable parents and poor examples for the next generations to watch... You seem to have it all figured out for someone who self-admits to "never having any parental instincts" Did you ever think that it is nature. The baby literally comes from within the mothers body, its only natural to want to protect them. Also, over parenting is not the cause for adolescents social problems these days. Its because of a lack of parenting if anything OP, be careful what you wish for, if you marry a woman who continues to act like she 25 be ready for some misery
Luv2dance Posted March 20, 2010 Posted March 20, 2010 Marriage - is the single biggest amplifier in life. If you really truly have your sheet together, it makes your life twice as good. If you DON'T have your sheet together - the other person either leaves you after a while or they STAY and emotionally overpower you. Which is a train wreck for both men and women. After our third child we did have a serious priority issue and we worked on it until it was resolved. I stayed on the same theme with my wife until I was accommodated: Me to her: - you are my highest priority - the kids are my second - I am my third - extended family is a distant fourth Me to her: Your priorities: - the kids are first (I am perfectly fine with this) - you are disorganized and so my needs are deprioritized - this is not acceptable - fix it I actually think the ONLY way this works out well is if: - you marry someone who is really into you - you marry someone you are really into - you set some clear expectations BEFORE marriage about what is and is not acceptable behavior on your part AND her part - you are willing to put your needs third - you really make the effort to be a great partner when your needs ARE generally speaking being met - you are willing to fight like the devil to not get deprioritized off the radar and are ready able and willing to fight like a girl to get what you want The last one is huge. Girls don't fight like boys. They are not wired for physical combat - less than 1 percent of women marry smaller men - so they HAVE to be good at verbal / emotional conflict. In fact they excel at it. You have to learn how to map male alpha behavior into a female variant of it or you will get slowly and steadily emasculated. If you DO learn this stuff - then your wife turns you into a better man than you ever possibly could have become on your own. I know mine did. If however you let your wife slowly overpower you.... Excellent post Mem...I think too many of us aren't willing to fight to stay a priority b/c it should just BE that way. Life is to busy and marriage is too hard to just sit back and hope things will be the way you want them. Thanks for being able to admit your wife made you a better man, shows how much you truly respect and admire her!!
lonelyandfrustrated Posted March 20, 2010 Posted March 20, 2010 I just wanted to throw in that sociologists HAVE studied the daycare scenario, and concluded that children who are in daycare for 40 hours a week have weak bonds with their mothers and this translates into an inability to forge intimate relationships as adults. They found no adverse affects in children who were in daycare (or pre-school) for less than 15 hours a week. I also want to point out that women who stay home after the children start school often have to, because the father refuses to take the necessary time off when a child is too sick to attend school, and there are also school holidays to consider, as well as extended breaks in the winter and summer months. A choice to return to a 9-5 job only after the children are old enough to be home alone in those situations is, imho, prudent.
blair08 Posted March 20, 2010 Posted March 20, 2010 (edited) IMO alot of mothers, especially new mothers, can sometimes lose themselves. Their identity and who they once were. Alot of their time and energy is consumed by the kids and their new parenting responsibilities. And yes, it can last for a very long time, unless they they learn to detach a little bit at some point, to get themselves back on track and know they are more than just a mother. Sometimes I think that is hard or can be hard for some to do. To me that is the time in which a spouse needs to be most helpful and supportive. And yes even if some husbands are that way, you can't change how your wife may feel etc. until she is ready. I don't think men will ever truly understand what its like to be a mother, just like there are some things that women will not ever understand about men. PS, and yes there are SOME men who after their wife becomes a mother, only sees them as just that. Then their are some men who see their wives as more than just a mother, they still see them as the lover, friend etc they once had, but the wife who is anew mother has a hard time believing that for herself. Edited March 20, 2010 by blair08
mem11363 Posted March 20, 2010 Posted March 20, 2010 It is ok for my wife to not "feel" certain ways after having kids. I accept she cannot directly control how she feels - just like I can't change the fact that I sometimes felt a homicidal rage when enough things went bad. And just as I managed my external behavior I insisted she do the same. This is what defines a mature adult. IMO alot of mothers, especially new mothers, can sometimes lose themselves. Their identity and who they once were. Alot of their time and energy is consumed by the kids and their new parenting responsibilities. And yes, it can last for a very long time, unless they they learn to detach a little bit at some point, to get themselves back on track and know they are more than just a mother. Sometimes I think that is hard or can be hard for some to do. To me that is the time in which a spouse needs to be most helpful and supportive. And yes even if some husbands are that way, you can't change how your wife may feel etc. until she is ready. I don't think men will ever truly understand what its like to be a mother, just like there are some things that women will not ever understand about men. PS, and yes there are SOME men who after their wife becomes a mother, only sees them as just that. Then their are some men who see their wives as more than just a mother, they still see them as the lover, friend etc they once had, but the wife who is anew mother has a hard time believing that for herself.
Author Mr White Posted March 20, 2010 Author Posted March 20, 2010 - you are willing to fight like the devil to not get deprioritized off the radar and are ready able and willing to fight like a girl to get what you want The last one is huge. Girls don't fight like boys. They are not wired for physical combat - less than 1 percent of women marry smaller men - so they HAVE to be good at verbal / emotional conflict. In fact they excel at it. You have to learn how to map male alpha behavior into a female variant of it or you will get slowly and steadily emasculated. If you DO learn this stuff - then your wife turns you into a better man than you ever possibly could have become on your own. I know mine did. If however you let your wife slowly overpower you.... Ha, very good points. Very difficult to do, but I've decided to speak up instantly when I dislike something my gf does, or else it can easily become too late and I'm left scratching my head in another horrible marriage. Big part of this is socialization. For the longest time men have been taught to "suck it up" and 'be a man', while in reality, apparently a big part of evolving as a man is laying it down like "here are my needs and I don't care if it is uncomfortable to discuss what we need to do to reach a resolution". The problem is that it is too easy to let go of individual stressors - much like smoking, it is not an individual cigarette that kills you, but the pattern of repeatedly letting it slide, until one day it is too late.
xxoo Posted March 20, 2010 Posted March 20, 2010 Ha, very good points. Very difficult to do, but I've decided to speak up instantly when I dislike something my gf does, or else it can easily become too late and I'm left scratching my head in another horrible marriage. Big part of this is socialization. For the longest time men have been taught to "suck it up" and 'be a man', while in reality, apparently a big part of evolving as a man is laying it down like "here are my needs and I don't care if it is uncomfortable to discuss what we need to do to reach a resolution". Interesting, Mr White, because this is exactly the same kind of advice I am always giving to women! Women and girls are definitely socialized to "suck it up" and put aside their needs. Women typically have a more difficult time being assertive, and are labelled as bitching or nagging if they try. Women need to pay attention to their needs and vocalize them! Early and often, so resentment does not grow. Yes, ideally, in a marriage, each partner feels comfortable bringing up concerns as they come up. No one is avoiding issues because it will be a big "dramatic" defensive reaction, and each takes the other's concerns seriously. And then the couple works to find a solution that works for both people. Yep, that is the way marriage works The only things that bother's me about Mem's post is when he spells out what his wife is doing wrong. Each partner's perception is different, and neither is 100% accurate. For that reason, I stick to "I" statement: "I feel deprioritized" "I need" etc, instead of "you" statements like "you are disorganized".
mem11363 Posted March 20, 2010 Posted March 20, 2010 I know this is going to seem awfully complicated but it works for me. In the moment: Something happens I know it is not fair/right but I am not truly angry - I speak right then and there and point out that I don't like what is happening. Not heavy handed - just briefly say it like it is. If needed I back it up. USUALLY my wife immediately gets it. - If I AM truly angry, I don't speak - I don't go into "male being a dick - sulking mode" I just suck it up at the moment and hold it until later when I am calm and when there are no distractions at which point I say "I didn't say anything when it happened because I would have been combative - I did not like it when XYZ ocurred" But I also have learned to fight like a girl. So when wife is doing things I don't like sometimes I just give her instant tone of voice feedback - like I will just ask a question about what she just did with a sharp edge to my tone. NOT loud - but - that tone is a warning. It says - proceed with caution. And I would say she handles me the same way in reverse. We only get deadlocked when we BOTH get pissed off simultaneously. Ha, very good points. Very difficult to do, but I've decided to speak up instantly when I dislike something my gf does, or else it can easily become too late and I'm left scratching my head in another horrible marriage. Big part of this is socialization. For the longest time men have been taught to "suck it up" and 'be a man', while in reality, apparently a big part of evolving as a man is laying it down like "here are my needs and I don't care if it is uncomfortable to discuss what we need to do to reach a resolution". The problem is that it is too easy to let go of individual stressors - much like smoking, it is not an individual cigarette that kills you, but the pattern of repeatedly letting it slide, until one day it is too late.
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