Classic moral hazard - here we go again...

[Mr White]

It's really sad, just got a letter from my best friend back in the day, married, 2 kids, one new born. Like millions of men before him, wonders what the hell happened to his wife after the kids came along. Married a great, ambitious, sane, sexy woman. The kids come along, she transforms in a kid-obsessed monster incapable of thinking of doing anything unless it involves the kids. I like kids, and want them, but that's a twisted way to live. Most men don't even attempt to fight it, since who wants to be shamed into not having "what's best for the kids" in mind:rolleyes:. Conversely, most men want to be devoted parents AND husbands. What they resent is the sudden change of behavior after marriage, and especially after kids, which typically result in a situation where they don't effin matter anymore - and that's the situation of every.single.married.man.I.know.

 

I really want to get married, but all the marriages I have observed follow the exact same pattern, and I don't want to taste this particular version of marriage. There is a huge difference between being a well-adjusted, responsible parent, and a crazy person that will destroy the world for no good reason other than she can't - or doesn't want - to think about anything other than her offspring. I'm tired of hearing how "hard" it is to raise kids. My mom raised two kids while working full time with no husband, yet listening to the "plight" of present day parents in intact families they are more miserable than the 19th century pioneers in the wild west .

It's hard, get over it, so is life. The life of 90% of the world population is way harder than we can even imagine, kids or no kids. What a bunch of crybabies we've turned into.

Edited March 18, 2010 by Mr White

[xxoo]

, 2 kids, one new born. Like millions of men before him, wonders what the hell happened to his wife after the kids came along.

 

Newborn. NEWBORN! Newborns are a crap-ton of work, and the newborn postpartum period can be hellish on a mother's physical and emotional wellbeing. No sleep, no exercise, small creature literally sucking the life from your body.....gah, it is my least favorite stage of parenting for a reason! But it is not forever.

 

The sudden change in behavior is due to a sudden change in circumstance.

 

My partner and I have a pretty awesome love story. We dig each other. I whisper in his ear at night that he's my "favorite"--and I mean it! I would die for my kids, and love them to pieces, but I didn't hand pick them and won't spend my whole life with them, kwim?

 

And still, the first months/year of each child's life meant little time and energy for my partner. I thank my stars that he was a GROWN UP about it and shared my priorities: helpless baby's needs get met first, then adult's. The needs lessen as the baby grows, and balance is restored.

 

There is hope, Mr White! But patience is key. Women will resent a man that tries to come between her and her newborn, and that resentment will poison the relationship for years to come.

[Neutrino]

Not all relationships end up this way - and not all people want kids. My SO and myself decided to remain child-free.

 

I never had any parental instincts and I told my BF that when we started dating - so he knew upfront.

 

Life an circumstances have changed, but the change of social conventions is much slower unfortunately - so many many people spend their lives chasing their won tail in a sense...

 

From what I see in some families, many women "over-mother" their kids only to justify staying at home a few years longer (and in this way avoiding having to shoulder their share of financial responsibility...). Right, kids today need to know a hell of a lot more than 20,000 years back, but they also mature faster. There is no need to treat a 15 year old as a 5 year old - IMO it is more damage than good.

 

It is a social taboo for parents to not want to sacrifice themselves for their kids - many forget that overdoing it leads to miserable parents and poor examples for the next generations to watch...

[Mr White]

Not all relationships end up this way - and not all people want kids. My SO and myself decided to remain child-free.

 

I never had any parental instincts and I told my BF that when we started dating - so he knew upfront.

 

Life an circumstances have changed, but the change of social conventions is much slower unfortunately - so many many people spend their lives chasing their won tail in a sense...

 

From what I see in some families, many women "over-mother" their kids only to justify staying at home a few years longer (and in this way avoiding having to shoulder their share of financial responsibility...). Right, kids today need to know a hell of a lot more than 20,000 years back, but they also mature faster. There is no need to treat a 15 year old as a 5 year old - IMO it is more damage than good.

 

It is a social taboo for parents to not want to sacrifice themselves for their kids - many forget that overdoing it leads to miserable parents and poor examples for the next generations to watch...

 

Yep, that's really what bugs me...

OF COURSE kids need to have their needs met. But there is a huge difference between that and over-mothering (I like that term). Or over-parenting, for that matter - although it is much more rare, I've also seen fathers who obsess over kids to ridiculous extent.

 

That is really probably the first step towards more reasonable relationships - to firmly state that there IS such thing as too much attention to children, and have the guts to endure the ensuing ****storm.

[Mr White]

Newborn. NEWBORN! Newborns are a crap-ton of work, and the newborn postpartum period can be hellish on a mother's physical and emotional wellbeing. No sleep, no exercise, small creature literally sucking the life from your body.....gah, it is my least favorite stage of parenting for a reason! But it is not forever.

 

The sudden change in behavior is due to a sudden change in circumstance.

 

My partner and I have a pretty awesome love story. We dig each other. I whisper in his ear at night that he's my "favorite"--and I mean it! I would die for my kids, and love them to pieces, but I didn't hand pick them and won't spend my whole life with them, kwim?

 

And still, the first months/year of each child's life meant little time and energy for my partner. I thank my stars that he was a GROWN UP about it and shared my priorities: helpless baby's needs get met first, then adult's. The needs lessen as the baby grows, and balance is restored.

 

There is hope, Mr White! But patience is key. Women will resent a man that tries to come between her and her newborn, and that resentment will poison the relationship for years to come.

 

Yep, I agree, but he was talking more generally (not just in the context of the newborn). Yes, the newborns are a lot of work, but the hardest period is really about half an year, give or take, after which things begin to taper off...

 

In all my life I've seen only ONE couple who managed to remain as reasonable after the kid as they were before, they are my heroes.

[saltnpepper]

I wonder whether it's a fundamental physiological/chemical change. I sure saw this. We're still working through it 16 years later, and I'm about done in.

[BlueeyedJonesy]

You know what this subject is something my H and I have come to live by. If you truly want your children to be happy..you put your M first..then the kids. My therapist says its like being on an airplane..why do you think they always tell you to put your oxygen on first and then your childs? You have to be happy and healthy in order for your children to be happy. Don't get me wrong, my children mean the world to me but we got to a point where we were like "ya know we sacrafice ALOT for our children" we hadn't been on a date in sooooooo long so now we make it a priority to have "adult time" no more babies in our bed..lol you have to do this or eventually everything will crumble.

[WalkInThePark]

I don't know what the solution is. My feeling is that back in the old days, despite the fact that people were "rougher" with kids, things were done in a more "sane" way.

Kids were simply not the center of attention. You had them or you did not have them, and you often had more of them than you actually wanted. If you managed to make sure they all were dressed more or less in a decent way to go to school and got enough food to grow up, was already a great thing.

 

For me the problem is that people see kids as a gadget these days. Something to have. Something to play a nice family with. The kids become little princes and princesses who are the most important person in the household. The result is that you get spoiled brats. I have friends who have kids I don't want to be around because they are so annoying. A friend of mine has a 5 year old who I can't stand anymore. If you want to talk with his mum, he will interrupt and mom won't tell him to shut up. Even if you do something really nice with him, he will nag. When I told a colleague who has an annoying kid herself about this, she said: "Yes but the boy was bored." Bored? So what if he was bored. I think kids should learn to be bored once in a while.

 

I remember that on Sundays my parents sometimes visited friends of them or some old family member. Well, before we left, we got clear instructions. We were supposed to sit still on a chair and be quiet. Of course when we went somewhere where they had a garden and there were other kids, we could play outside the whole time. But if we went to some old aunt of my mother, the order was to sit still and make yourself invisible. You know what? We did that. We could do that even if we were 4 or 5 years old. And if we were not following the order, one look of my mother was enough to pass on the message.

I have had a strict education. Definitely too severe. But the structure provided by this education has helped me a lot in life, in the sense that I am capable to deal with being bored or frustrated or accept that things don't go my way.

 

A lot of mothers these days have a relationship with their kids which is way too symbiotic. That harms the man-woman relationship and the mother-kid relationship as well. There has to be a healthy distance between kids and children.

[Mr White]

Ha! Great, sane, replies, they give me some hope .

I've had (a version of) this conversation with my gf, and I would say with her it's a 50/50 risk... Her view is that the priority should be the family as a whole (rather than marriage first, kids second). I generally agree with this, and buy it though this leaves very little margin for error (but still, I'd much rather hear that than "kids come first", accompanied with fist-shaking ). In any case, this topic definitely deserves a series of blunt conversations prior to any marriage... (along with all the other key variables: intimacy expectation, financial expectations/values, etc...); while doing this is not a safeguard per se, at least it will set a precedent of bluntly discussing such matters before it's too late...

 

In any case, my future kids will face some serious wrath if they disrespect adults or if they start to expect rewards without putting in the effort. pampering ans spoiling as appropriate, not as the norm.

Edited March 18, 2010 by Mr White

[xxoo]

Yep, I agree, but he was talking more generally (not just in the context of the newborn). Yes, the newborns are a lot of work, but the hardest period is really about half an year, give or take, after which things begin to taper off...

 

In all my life I've seen only ONE couple who managed to remain as reasonable after the kid as they were before, they are my heroes.

 

Ah, I see. That's a shame. I definitely see more success than that in my circle, but maybe you wouldn't consider those couples "reasonable". It's subjective.

 

That is really probably the first step towards more reasonable relationships - to firmly state that there IS such thing as too much attention to children, and have the guts to endure the ensuing ****storm.

 

I think this fact is becoming more and more openly acknowledged in our society. There is a backlash against "helicopter parents" and the helpless, whiny children they raise. But there is no magic formula of "just enough" attention, and every child/family is different. Each couple needs to really listen to what the other is saying, and work together to find the balance that works for their family. IME, families tend to find that balance better once the kids are school aged....unless they've grown unrepairably resentful or divorced by that point

[Neutrino]

You know what this subject is something my H and I have come to live by. If you truly want your children to be happy..you put your M first..then the kids. My therapist says its like being on an airplane..why do you think they always tell you to put your oxygen on first and then your childs? You have to be happy and healthy in order for your children to be happy. Don't get me wrong, my children mean the world to me but we got to a point where we were like "ya know we sacrafice ALOT for our children" we hadn't been on a date in sooooooo long so now we make it a priority to have "adult time" no more babies in our bed..lol you have to do this or eventually everything will crumble.

 

 

Good post. Kids don't benefit from unhappy parents - especially when they know they are (unwillingly) a cause in it...

 

Besides - spoiling your kids too much and running around them constantly, cancelling yourself out - doesn't really prepare them for real life, some of them continue to expect the same treatment from other people later on in life...

 

I'm no authority of course, but going to day care at an early age may provide better social training to a young child rather than mommy jumping to his/hers every whim...

[CarrieT]

Find and marry someone like me; desperate for sex, trained chef who will cook for you every night, financially responsible (I'm self-employed), keeps the house clean, and who NEVER wants children.

 

:laugh:

[Crow9726]

CarrieT...

 

I definitely need to introduce you to my brother who lives in Pleasant Hill. Just by reading your posts I think you two would get along.

[Neutrino]

Find and marry someone like me; desperate for sex, trained chef who will cook for you every night, financially responsible (I'm self-employed), keeps the house clean, and who NEVER wants children.

 

:laugh:

 

Careful there... You may score more than what you bargain for...

[xxoo]

While I do NOT condone spoiling children or rewarding horrid behavior, I do think it is important to point out that young children (say, under 6) are somewhat annoying, needy creatures--and always have been. It can be a humbling experience to raise a young child. Happily, they tend to outgrow it by middle childhood.

[blind_otter]

Mr white, please do not have any children. I beg of you.

 

Thanks a lot.

 

I really find it hysterical when people who have no chlidren start spouting off about how people who DO have children should behave and raise their own children. If you have never been around a newborn, then please don't speak of parenting one. If you have never been challenged to discipline someone who has a vocabulary of less than 100 words, and most of them nouns, then please - don't speak of parenting one.

 

Opinions are like bum holes. Everyone has one, but they are mostly full of crap.

[Jeff1962]

There has to be a balance to everything in our lives.

 

Wanting mom and dad time alone does not make people bad parents. People tend to forget themselves after children. We tend to throw everything into this new life that we have created and rightfully so, but we forget about the life that we have together.

 

We are human. There has to be a healthy balance. There has to be time made for eachother to keep the marriage bond strong.

[xxoo]

Her view is that the priority should be the family as a whole (rather than marriage first, kids second). I generally agree with this, and buy it though this leaves very little margin for error (but still, I'd much rather hear that than "kids come first", accompanied with fist-shaking ).

 

I agree with your girlfriend on this one. "Marriage first" bothers me as much as "kids first". The reality is, needs are not static. There are times when kids come first, and times when the spouse comes first. There are times when I come first, or I will have nothing left for my husband and kids.

 

You can't know exactly how that will all work out until you actually have the spouse and kids, though. You can, however, compare specific ideals: value double income or a stay-home parent? Value big home or lots of family time? Etc.

[SarahRose]

I don't know what the solution is. My feeling is that back in the old days, despite the fact that people were "rougher" with kids, things were done in a more "sane" way.

Kids were simply not the center of attention. You had them or you did not have them, and you often had more of them than you actually wanted. If you managed to make sure they all were dressed more or less in a decent way to go to school and got enough food to grow up, was already a great thing.

 

For me the problem is that people see kids as a gadget these days. Something to have. Something to play a nice family with. The kids become little princes and princesses who are the most important person in the household. The result is that you get spoiled brats. I have friends who have kids I don't want to be around because they are so annoying. A friend of mine has a 5 year old who I can't stand anymore. If you want to talk with his mum, he will interrupt and mom won't tell him to shut up. Even if you do something really nice with him, he will nag. When I told a colleague who has an annoying kid herself about this, she said: "Yes but the boy was bored." Bored? So what if he was bored. I think kids should learn to be bored once in a while.

 

I remember that on Sundays my parents sometimes visited friends of them or some old family member. Well, before we left, we got clear instructions. We were supposed to sit still on a chair and be quiet. Of course when we went somewhere where they had a garden and there were other kids, we could play outside the whole time. But if we went to some old aunt of my mother, the order was to sit still and make yourself invisible. You know what? We did that. We could do that even if we were 4 or 5 years old. And if we were not following the order, one look of my mother was enough to pass on the message.

I have had a strict education. Definitely too severe. But the structure provided by this education has helped me a lot in life, in the sense that I am capable to deal with being bored or frustrated or accept that things don't go my way.

 

A lot of mothers these days have a relationship with their kids which is way too symbiotic. That harms the man-woman relationship and the mother-kid relationship as well. There has to be a healthy distance between kids and children.

 

I have a neighbor who is obviously a mommy boy. He is in his 50s and cant hold down a job and expects his parents to bail him out. It's pretty pathetic.

 

Society used to keep these people in check as when the kid is acting out in public people did say things to the parents and the child but people won't do that anymore because the parent will cuss them out in public.

[Mme. Chaucer]

Mr. White, NONE of my friends with children turned out like yours did.

 

I think part of the problem is the "needy" men who are used to being "taken care of" by their women and become very resentful and petulant when a time comes that their needs are not such a big deal. We used to call it "big baby syndrome." ("We" refers to my ex husband and myself ... he capitulated to it, but also had the objectivity to see this in himself and even laugh about it. And no, this was not a contributing factor to the eventual end of our marriage.)

 

So many people seem unable to look at their part in this world as part of a giant continuum. When I was in high school, a lot of moms still stayed home and the dads worked. I was raised to think I could "do it all." I "did it all." It was bogus. I don't think very many people, men or women, are excellent at parenting at the same time as being kick ass in demanding careers. One or the other is likely to suffer. This time in our culture seems to be sort of a back lash phase.

 

Many parents, more mothers than dads, do "over parent" and I think it's because they feel guilty for not going forward with the career so they make their kids & kids activities full time jobs. Hard core soccer moms. It's a fairly new phenomena. Back in my young days, there was no such thing in spite of the many "full time" moms / housewives. We walked or rode our bikes to sports, friends, etc. There was no such thing as a "play date" or "Gymboree." Not that these things are necessarily bad ... or that our moms, in the olden days, drinking martinis on the deck while the kids did whatever they wanted to in town, were doing better.

 

Couples being conscious about what they are doing and how they are doing it, and accepting waxing and waning of priorities and changing needs within the family, are the key. I think.

[Luv2dance]

I agree with your girlfriend on this one. "Marriage first" bothers me as much as "kids first". The reality is, needs are not static. There are times when kids come first, and times when the spouse comes first. There are times when I come first, or I will have nothing left for my husband and kids.

 

You can't know exactly how that will all work out until you actually have the spouse and kids, though. You can, however, compare specific ideals: value double income or a stay-home parent? Value big home or lots of family time? Etc.

 

I totally agree with this!! I don't think anything is ALWAYS first (or shouldn't be). There has to be a balance and yes it can be hard to work it out but it can be done w/o creating a horrible marriage. But, having a baby will do a number on you and does change your perspective on things.

 

I honestly didn't realize how common this "sudden change" in married women was until finding LS. I don't think I've changed much at all really...didn't like to cook before, didn't like to clean and loved sex...those things are pretty much still that way. We have fairly regular date nights and take adult vacations and YET still are having marriage issues so there is not a fool proof way to know if it will survive.

[stillafool]

I wonder whether it's a fundamental physiological/chemical change. I sure saw this. We're still working through it 16 years later, and I'm about done in.

 

And that's another thing. Some women say they want to stay home and raise the kids but when the kids all go off to school they don't go out and get a job. They never go back to work.

[stillafool]

Many parents, more mothers than dads, do "over parent" and I think it's because they feel guilty for not going forward with the career so they make their kids & kids activities full time jobs. Hard core soccer moms. It's a fairly new phenomena.

 

I agree with this. I've seen this from my SIL.

[stillafool]

For me the problem is that people see kids as a gadget these days. Something to have. Something to play a nice family with. The kids become little princes and princesses who are the most important person in the household. The result is that you get spoiled brats. I have friends who have kids I don't want to be around because they are so annoying. A friend of mine has a 5 year old who I can't stand anymore.

 

 

OMG, what happened to the good old days when children had manners. I am so sick of being interrupted by someone's kid who does not say "excuse me" and is not corrected by their parents it makes me sick.

 

When I told a colleague who has an annoying kid herself about this, she said: "Yes but the boy was bored." Bored? So what if he was bored. I think kids should learn to be bored once in a while.

 

I know. Send them outside to make up a game to play. Why must they be constantly entertained. Now you have to have a TV in the back seat of the car for them to watch or they feel deprived. WTF?

 

I remember that on Sundays my parents sometimes visited friends of them or some old family member. Well, before we left, we got clear instructions. We were supposed to sit still on a chair and be quiet. Of course when we went somewhere where they had a garden and there were other kids, we could play outside the whole time. But if we went to some old aunt of my mother, the order was to sit still and make yourself invisible. You know what? We did that. We could do that even if we were 4 or 5 years old. And if we were not following the order, one look of my mother was enough to pass on the message.

 

This is exactly what today's kids need. This type of discipline. Parents don't understand they are growing a bunch of self entitlted brats.

[blind_otter]

 

I'd like to know where these "good old days" occurred. Was this also the time when people routinely institutionalized anyone who was not considered "normal"? Was this the time when it was impossible to get birth control and many women died of exhaustion because they simply fell pregnant too many times, or their uteruses just sort of fell out of their vaginas?

 

The "good old days" as you all seem to laud - produced the people who are parenting now.

 

So, I guess it wasn't all that great back then. No formula feeding, no such thing as spousal abuse in the court system, no child labor laws. Yes, it was an excellent time, indeed.

 

Thankfully I had a father who was born in 1929, and a mother from a third world country, so I am actually aware of the REALITY of the world that existed in the "Good Old Days".

 

What the above postersl are referring to is a fantasy that never existed.