Woggle Posted March 15, 2010 Posted March 15, 2010 Well, that's kind of my point - "a man trying to be a man". What does it mean to be a man? It means being able to provide for yourself and a woman, even if she's capable of providing for herself. And FWIW, I'm not insulted by his attitude/beliefs. I wouldn't feel degraded if I decided to stay home and raise children and I wouldn't feel degraded if I went out and worked my whole life. As long as it were my choice. Many women still judge a man on his ability to provide so they keep up these gender roles just as much.
sally4sara Posted March 15, 2010 Posted March 15, 2010 You want to even the score with innocent men yet it is wrong when I want to even the score. I don't get you. Sometimes I think you are not a misandrist and I think you just want equality then you say something like this. Woggle, the person I responded to was talking about how women now cheat and act foolish in relationships just as much (some think more) than men and no one cares. I said I thought folks gave it as much consideration as was always given these acts from when it was predominantly men doing the cheating and acting like brats. It is just that now that men are not the ones mostly doing it, men NOW think it is horrible, where as before, they didn't think about it much at all. When we get hurt, it is always way more of a big deal then when it is happening to someone else and even when it is us doing it to someone else. Before, it was women being hurt so men didn't dwell on it. Now, for some guy to get upset about people not really caring about things people ignored before, is only him getting upset because it is happening to him or happening to men. They are not new occurrences; just new faces. People don't care less just because it now happens to men - it just feels that way to men. And really, I don't care if you think I'm a misandrist or not. You ARE a misogynist and it makes it impossible for you to clearly understand where I'm coming from. It is frankly a headache to have to explain my every word thrice just because you know I have a vagina. You calling me a misandrist is just you recognizing I am female while you struggle with a damaged view of reality. I'd have to be a walking doormat for you to not suspect me as being a misandrist. Your problem - not mine.
sweetjasmine Posted March 15, 2010 Posted March 15, 2010 Many women still judge a man on his ability to provide so they keep up these gender roles just as much. Duh, Woggle, where did I claim otherwise? Stop reading "I BLAME MEN FOR EVRYTHIGN!!!11" into every post you see. It's incredibly irritating.
Woggle Posted March 15, 2010 Posted March 15, 2010 I sometimes think you truly are about being equal but then you go and say something like that. These are the same people who get at me now that I want to even the score with women. At least I am honest about it.
Twenty-ten Posted March 15, 2010 Posted March 15, 2010 Treating an innocent man like garbage and claming it is just evening the score is very much revenge. I work with two women right now who high five each other all day about their affairs but that is perfectly okay. Don't tell me that it is simply about equality because I know d. Oh so what are you saying that putting laws into place that protect women from sexual harassment in the workplace, and supporting those laws as a woman, is treating "innocent men" like dirt? You call that revenge? Walk a mile in our shoes and come back and cry some more, will you? Women have to up with ten times the crap some of you men put up with and yet you are still the loudest whiners. What gives? You have no idea what it is like to be afraid of a man at work who holds all the power over your job and they expect you to put out or go out with them. NO idea what that makes you feel like.
sally4sara Posted March 15, 2010 Posted March 15, 2010 I sometimes think you truly are about being equal but then you go and say something like that. These are the same people who get at me now that I want to even the score with women. At least I am honest about it. Nothing in my posts had anything to do with evening the score - duh. Quote where I said I support revenge tactics. If you can't find anything - shove off.
sally4sara Posted March 15, 2010 Posted March 15, 2010 Oh so what are you saying that putting laws into place that protect women from sexual harassment in the workplace, and supporting those laws as a woman, is treating "innocent men" like dirt? You call that revenge? Walk a mile in our shoes and come back and cry some more, will you? Women have to up with ten times the crap some of you men put up with and yet you are still the loudest whiners. What gives? You have no idea what it is like to be afraid of a man at work who holds all the power over your job and they expect you to put out or go out with them. NO idea what that makes you feel like. To be fair Twenty, he does have some idea of what it is like to have a woman hold scary power over him via his mother.
sweetjasmine Posted March 15, 2010 Posted March 15, 2010 I sometimes think you truly are about being equal but then you go and say something like that. These are the same people who get at me now that I want to even the score with women. At least I am honest about it. Woggle, please read my posts. In my life, my mother has been the one pushing traditional gender roles on me more than anyone else. I've seen men and women argue for those kinds of roles and I've seen it affect both men and women negatively. And "evening the score" is wrong. I don't care who is evening what score. Hurting innocent people just because other people have hurt you in the past is messed up. Like I've said before, it'd be wrong for me to beat the crap out of my blond neighbor just because some blond person stole my wallet last year. And it'd be wrong for me to deliberately hurt a random man or woman for something that another man or woman has done to me in the past.
Woggle Posted March 15, 2010 Posted March 15, 2010 Oh so what are you saying that putting laws into place that protect women from sexual harassment in the workplace, and supporting those laws as a woman, is treating "innocent men" like dirt? You call that revenge? Walk a mile in our shoes and come back and cry some more, will you? Women have to up with ten times the crap some of you men put up with and yet you are still the loudest whiners. What gives? You have no idea what it is like to be afraid of a man at work who holds all the power over your job and they expect you to put out or go out with them. NO idea what that makes you feel like. I never said anything like that. I said that expecting an innocent man to be a doormat for you because of something some other man did is revenge. I never had a horrible boss but let's see if you ever experienced these things. Did your father ever come into you room with a knife and threaten to give you a sex change operation? Did your father ever make you dance naked in front of his friends? Did you leave home for days at a time at age 14 only to have him tell you that he hopes you never come back? Did you have your ex shoot at you only to have him tell you that you deserve it because women are abused all the time? All these things happend to me by my mother so don't tell me I don't know it is like to be abused. Ever since I was old enough to know what feminist means I was the target of some feminist's rage and now that I finaly have stopped hating myself and and I am finally standing strong and not being afraid anymore now women want to get mad at me?
Woggle Posted March 15, 2010 Posted March 15, 2010 Nothing in my posts had anything to do with evening the score - duh. Quote where I said I support revenge tactics. If you can't find anything - shove off. Excusing it is the same as condoning it.
sally4sara Posted March 15, 2010 Posted March 15, 2010 I never said anything like that. I said that expecting an innocent man to be a doormat for you because of something some other man did is revenge. I never had a horrible boss but let's see if you ever experienced these things. Did your father ever come into you room with a knife and threaten to give you a sex change operation? Did your father ever make you dance naked in front of his friends? Did you leave home for days at a time at age 14 only to have him tell you that he hopes you never come back? Did you have your ex shoot at you only to have him tell you that you deserve it because women are abused all the time? All these things happend to me by my mother so don't tell me I don't know it is like to be abused. Ever since I was old enough to know what feminist means I was the target of some feminist's rage and now that I finaly have stopped hating myself and and I am finally standing strong and not being afraid anymore now women want to get mad at me? Your only wrong Woggle is that you feel you cannot see eye to eye with women because of you experiences when really you can understand some of the struggles women deal with because of how your mother treated you. You see, monsters don't have gender, they USE other peoples gender against them to hurt them.
sally4sara Posted March 15, 2010 Posted March 15, 2010 Excusing it is the same as condoning it. Quote where I excused it. I only said I didn't think people cared less, I said it only seemed that way to men because they are now dealing with the same issues women always dealt with. See? Having to explain myself over and over simply because I'm female and you fear/hate women.
Ruby Slippers Posted March 15, 2010 Posted March 15, 2010 Rubby I totally feel what you are saying. Reading your story brings ups a lot of ugly feelings for me too. Exact same time period for me too! One night he kept me behind again and threatened to write me up and I asked him for what? he said because I was wearing a black bra under my blouse and he could tell. Yes. Reading your stories brought up more memories and made me feel sick to my stomach. I have a bra story, too. One day I came in for my evening shift on Saturday. The shirts I wore to work were button-up white shirts that were pretty thick, so the color of my bra didn't show through. This evening, I was wearing a colorful flowery bra, and since it was a rainy weekend night, I had to park far away and got totally soaked running across the parking lot to get to work. When I walked in, I didn't realize that my white shirt was plastered to my body and you could totally see the bra. A female co-worker quickly pointed this out, and I pulled the shirt away from my chest. But several male co-workers and my manager had already noticed by then, and they were gawking and making lewd comments about my boobs. I was mortified, and begging someone to give me a jacket to cover up with till I got dry. The men were all laughing, staring at my tits, saying things like, "No way! You're just gonna have to wait." The manager participated in this. Finally, a female co-worker ran and got me an extra shirt she had. The male employees and manager kept bringing up the subject of my tits for the next couple of weeks.
Woggle Posted March 15, 2010 Posted March 15, 2010 Your only wrong Woggle is that you feel you cannot see eye to eye with women because of you experiences when really you can understand some of the struggles women deal with because of how your mother treated you. You see, monsters don't have gender, they USE other peoples gender against them to hurt them. Yet every time I have tried to connect with women I get show down. I used to be the guy who would check a man who harrassed a woman and now I simply don't give a damn.
Twenty-ten Posted March 15, 2010 Posted March 15, 2010 I never said anything like that. I said that expecting an innocent man to be a doormat for you because of something some other man did is revenge. Well who the hell expects that? I certainly don't!! My only expectation is to be treated with the same level of respect that a man would be treated, in the work place, on the street, in my house... anywhere. Did your father ever come into you room with a knife and threaten to give you a sex change operation? Did your father ever make you dance naked in front of his friends? Did you leave home for days at a time at age 14 only to have him tell you that he hopes you never come back? Did you have your ex shoot at you only to have him tell you that you deserve it because women are abused all the time? All these things happend to me by my mother so don't tell me I don't know it is like to be abused. Ever since I was old enough to know what feminist means I was the target of some feminist's rage and now that I finaly have stopped hating myself and and I am finally standing strong and not being afraid anymore now women want to get mad at me? NO I never experienced any of those things, but if you were to tell me that there has been a social movement that protects children and adults from abusive parents I would never EVER tell you that it's a stupid movement that is designed to seek revenge on the innocent I would only see it a good thing. Any system that is put into place that makes abusers pay for their ways is something I will always support regardless of gender, age or status.
sally4sara Posted March 15, 2010 Posted March 15, 2010 Yet every time I have tried to connect with women I get show down. I used to be the guy who would check a man who harrassed a woman and now I simply don't give a damn. Now who is making excuses? You know what wogs, I'd appreciate it if you'd leave me alone till you can be as fair about things as I strive to be. I don't enjoy the way you mince over my every word, almost willfully trying to take it the worst way possible when you can only make excuses for your damaged views about women. I am a child of abuse too.
Woggle Posted March 15, 2010 Posted March 15, 2010 But if you suggested that I had the right to abuse a daughter if I ever had one because now it is payback time you would of course be wrong. This is the equivelant of what women do when they high five female cheaters and abusers because it is payback time.
Woggle Posted March 15, 2010 Posted March 15, 2010 Now who is making excuses? You know what wogs, I'd appreciate it if you'd leave me alone till you can be as fair about things as I strive to be. I don't enjoy the way you mince over my every word, almost willfully trying to take it the worst way possible when you can only make excuses for your damaged views about women. I am a child of abuse too. I know you are a child of abuse which is why you should understand me more.
Silver_star Posted March 15, 2010 Posted March 15, 2010 But if you suggested that I had the right to abuse a daughter if I ever had one because now it is payback time you would of course be wrong. This is the equivelant of what women do when they high five female cheaters and abusers because it is payback time. Two wrongs dont make a right. Sorry to hear about your shaky past Woggle.
Ruby Slippers Posted March 15, 2010 Posted March 15, 2010 I hope someone reported your gross pig of a boss. I spoke up, but he was the highest manager I had any contact with, and he was the one doing it. The other guys who worked there were no help. Most of them he had hired because they shared his mentality and treated young women the same way. He hired attractive teenage girls as young as possible and piggish older teenage boys. He actually trained the guys to harass the girls and encouraged it. In the very least, he should have been fired, and possibly held accountable to legal consequences. I'm sure he went right on sexually harassing female employees until he had to suffer consequences, if he ever did.
Woggle Posted March 15, 2010 Posted March 15, 2010 Two wrongs dont make a right. Sorry to hear about your shaky past Woggle. No they don't but every bit of abuse I have taken in my life I have been told that I deserve it because of something I had nothing to do with or that I would never condone. I think this is what many men are sick of. You could be the nicest and kindest men in the world towards women and in the eye of feminists you are still guilty because you have a penis. It is the reason I never want to be a father. I am scared of having a daughter and repeating the cycle so I think it is better off if I let my family seed on my mother's side die with me.
Silver_star Posted March 15, 2010 Posted March 15, 2010 No they don't but every bit of abuse I have taken in my life I have been told that I deserve it because of something I had nothing to do with or that I would never condone. I think this is what many men are sick of. You could be the nicest and kindest men in the world towards women and in the eye of feminists you are still guilty because you have a penis. It is the reason I never want to be a father. I am scared of having a daughter and repeating the cycle so I think it is better off if I let my family seed on my mother's side die with me. Your entitled to feel that way. Im sorry that you have been told you deserve bad treatment, because most people and common sense will tell you that no one deserves abuse. I dont know what men are being referred to as "guilty" for? Guilty of what? I think there is a difference between people standing up for themselves and what they beleive and abuse.
Woggle Posted March 15, 2010 Posted March 15, 2010 Your entitled to feel that way. Im sorry that you have been told you deserve bad treatment, because most people and common sense will tell you that no one deserves abuse. I dont know what men are being referred to as "guilty" for? Guilty of what? I think there is a difference between people standing up for themselves and what they beleive and abuse. To your average feminist male=oppressor so any wrong commited towards a man is justified. That is how your average feminist thinks. The way I see it is if I am treated like a scumbag no matter what I do might as well align myself with the chauvinist pigs who women love to hate. At least they will have my back.
Twenty-ten Posted March 15, 2010 Posted March 15, 2010 (edited) Yes. Reading your stories brought up more memories and made me feel sick to my stomach. I have a bra story, too... ruby that story was absolutely horrible it almost made me want to cry the level of humiliation you must have felt..... No they don't but every bit of abuse I have taken in my life I have been told that I deserve it because of something I had nothing to do with or that I would never condone. .Who made you believe that Woggle, that's wrong why should you be blamed for some demented people who were part of your life and did that to you? I think this is what many men are sick of. You could be the nicest and kindest men in the world towards women and in the eye of feminists you are still guilty because you have a penis. No you are only guilty when you display signs of abuse. Your communication style is very angry and sometimes abusive without foundation other than your own preconceived notions of women as a whole, so how could you tell women that we just blindly blame all men just because they have a penis when you do the exact equivalent of that to women? Do you not see your own patterns of thought vs actions? this is what is so troublesome about you, your story also made me very sad. And perhaps it is not my place to say this but you can tell us until you are blue in the face that you are a good guy that is liked by all in real life, but that doesn't reflect on here a lot of the time and it is really hard to connect with your hardships when we see you in such a negative light all the time. You know Woggle I like you and I empathize with a lot of what you have been through believe me I do, but at some point you have to let it go a bit and try to be a little bit more evenly aligned with what you say is the correct way to be. Not that you have to prove to anyone anything on here but if you really want people to believe what you stand for start practicing what you preach, that is a good place to start. Edited March 15, 2010 by Twenty-ten
Woggle Posted March 15, 2010 Posted March 15, 2010 I used to be a good guy but I probably am not anymore. The way I see is that if women think I am scum might as well give them a real reason to hate me. I also use this board as a place to vent because if I don't have some release for this rage I fear I will do something I regret. I know that sounds scary but it is the truth. I don't want to be this way but I feel myself growing colder and more bitter every day.
Recommended Posts