My thoughts on cheating

[jnj express]

Hey Jeff---to have a revenge A., or not to have one----Not a great idea, you bring yourself down to your spouse's level----MAIN REASON NOT TO HAVE ONE IS IF YOU HAVE KIDS----what do you look like in their eyes if you also go out and cheat?????

[onedayatatyme]

Which (unfortunately) is exactly what my MM is doing.

 

No, it's really not what he's doing. He isn't loving either of you by my second definition. He's being extremely selfish with his affair. He is putting his own need for emotional satisfaction above his promise of fidelity to his wife. Completely and utterly dishonest and unfair. It is not love.

[jennie-jennie]

No, it's really not what he's doing. He isn't loving either of you by my second definition. He's being extremely selfish with his affair. He is putting his own need for emotional satisfaction above his promise of fidelity to his wife. Completely and utterly dishonest and unfair. It is not love.

 

Excuse my ignorance. I understand that fidelity is understood when one gets married, but is it specifically expressed in the marriage vows? I looked at an example of marriage vows online and could not see it mentioned. If it is, could someone quote it for me, please.

 

Neither your first nor your second definition is how I define long term love for a partner by the way.

Edited March 12, 2010 by jennie-jennie

[xxoo]

Excuse my ignorance. I understand that fidelity is understood when one gets married, but is it specifically expressed in the marriage vows? I looked at an example of marriage vows online and could not see it mentioned. If it is, could someone quote it for me, please.

 

Neither your first nor your second definition is how I define long term love for a partner by the way.

 

It is included in some vows, but not all. Some weddings have no vows at all. Still, fidelity is understood unless the couple has another agreement.

 

How you define love doesn't affect whether or not he is keeping his vows to his wife. What matters is their promises to each other through marrying.

[carhill]

Something to think about. So, before you cheat, think about if you would be ok with your spouse doing the same.

 

I agree, and we covered this aspect in MC. One big revelation for myself is how disparate definitions are wrt 'cheating', especially where no sexual conduct is involved. There's a lot of gray and often vastly different perspectives regarding parameters and degrees. That was reinforced later by readings here on LS.

 

In the final analysis, one can only take responsibility for themselves, their choices, their mistakes and find a healthier path. That process ends when one dies, not one second before. As much as 'circumstances' might impel us to point a finger, in reality that finger only points at ourselves.

[ladydesigner]

Hey Jeff---to have a revenge A., or not to have one----Not a great idea, you bring yourself down to your spouse's level----MAIN REASON NOT TO HAVE ONE IS IF YOU HAVE KIDS----what do you look like in their eyes if you also go out and cheat?????

 

I had a revenge A and I did bring myself to my spouse's level, not a good thing. As far as my kids they'll never know so they were not hurt by the A, neither was my H as I chose not to disclose. The only person who got hurt out of my revenge A was me.

[jennie-jennie]

No, it's really not what he's doing. He isn't loving either of you by my second definition. He's being extremely selfish with his affair. He is putting his own need for emotional satisfaction above his promise of fidelity to his wife. Completely and utterly dishonest and unfair. It is not love.

 

It is included in some vows, but not all. Some weddings have no vows at all. Still, fidelity is understood unless the couple has another agreement.

So then we really do not know what is the case with my MM. Was fidelity included in his vows or not? You can not break a vow of fidelity you never made.

Too bad it is not possible to promise love then.

 

It depends on your definition of love. If you mean it isn't possible to promise the chemical reaction in the brain that gets you all juicy for somebody, then you're right, it isn't possible to promise that.

 

But if you define love as the day in and day out choice to serve somebody or something above your own self interests, to hold their needs or desires more precious than your own, of course you can promise that and deliver on it.

 

How you define love doesn't affect whether or not he is keeping his vows to his wife. What matters is their promises to each other through marrying.

How I define love matters to whether my statement that it is not possible to promise love is true or not.

Edited March 12, 2010 by jennie-jennie

[hopesndreams]

First of all, I have always been faithful so I cannot really wrap my mind around an affair. These are just my thoughts.

 

If you cheat, you should tell your spouse so that they can either do the same or end the relationship or heal it, knowing all truth.

 

Now, I think some of you who have cheated would have a problem with your spouse being with another person, yet it's ok for you to do so. Tell them so that they can have the choice to revenge f**k someone so that you can know how it feels to know that your spouse is being intimate with another.

 

Just a thought. I guarantee you, if I ever found out that my wife had an affair, I would be out for total revenge first. If I knew that she gave to another man what should only be given to me, I would give everything of myself to another woman. I would even try it hanging from the ceiling fan if I could.

 

Something to think about. So, before you cheat, think about if you would be ok with your spouse doing the same.

 

When someone gets to the point of cheating on their spouse, they don't give an f what their spouse does or feels. It's all about them. They might even get turned on by your "revenge" affair. It would let them off the hook. No guilt, merrily doing whoever, whenever and then it could turn into an open marriage.

[califnan]

I really cringe at these gender stereotypes.

 

I'll agree that a person uninterested in their partner's needs should not be in the marriage. But I don't think that working inside or outside the home has much to do with that. Would it be better if the woman worked outside the home and did not wish to have sex with her husband? Or if the uninterested party were the husband?

 

----------------------

 

I was using the relationship with the woman having an outside affair as an example.. Have noticed that the women who do not wish to tell their husbands of the affair - are not self supporting. .. In answer to your question, I would say that if a woman does not wish to have sex with her husband, she should give him the freedom to divorce her - after telling him of the affair..

[xxoo]

So then we really do not know what is the case with my MM. Was fidelity included in his vows or not? You can not break a vow of fidelity you never made.

 

 

The promise of fidelity does not necessarily appear in the wedding vows. It commonly is expressed long before the wedding (or even without a wedding) in conversations about "what does this relationship mean and where is it going?" or even earlier on: "are we monogamous?". You don't need a ceremony to make a promise and a commitment.

 

If your MM did not promise fidelity, why is he hiding the affair?

 

Does he feel he's been unfaithful? If so, why are you focusing on the vows he spoke as some sort of proof that he never promised fidelity?

[wheelwright]

A few points on this thread of interest to me.

 

Firstly, keeping a marriage promise is not the be all and end all in ethics. If you make a bad promise, should you keep it? What if you promised to murder someone? Sometimes it is ethically better to break a promise than to keep it. It was the making of the promise that was unethical.

 

If neither you nor your W has cheated, why are you posting here? Do you want to know why you don't cheat? Maybe because you think breaking the promise is unethical, not the fact you made it. TBH, people in love do not feel they are behaving unethically IME, while they may care about the hurt they cause. Promises they stupidly made play no part.

 

When I was in an A, and in fact prior to the A, I would have liked my H to form an emotional attachment to someone else, with or without attendant sex. It would have made leaving him guilt free. And staying with him despite my wayward leanings more bearable too. I would have wished him luck. Not all people in As are hypocritical in this way.

 

And I agree with JJ that a cheater can still be a good person. Perhaps her MM is someone who made a bad promise, who doesn't like backing down from that promise, yet needs to fulfill certain obligations he entered into before he can be free to live out in the open celebrating his love.

 

I really don't think love is ever a bad thing. I think societal expectations often make it feel like it might be.

 

And cheating when you are not in love with the AP? I know little about that, but what I do know tells me that it doesn't work if you have a conscience or respect for the sex act. But I wouldn't judge someone who did that either. I probably wouldn't want a relationship with them though (hell, I sound like Dexter! )

[califnan]

The promise of fidelity does not necessarily appear in the wedding vows. It commonly is expressed long before the wedding (or even without a wedding) in conversations about "what does this relationship mean and where is it going?" or even earlier on: "are we monogamous?". You don't need a ceremony to make a promise and a commitment.

 

If your MM did not promise fidelity, why is he hiding the affair?

 

Does he feel he's been unfaithful? If so, why are you focusing on the vows he spoke as some sort of proof that he never promised fidelity?

 

--------------------

 

Marriage is Under God ..

 

What therefore God hath joined together, let not man put asunder.

 

It is the One Flesh Covenant ..

[bentnotbroken]

A few points on this thread of interest to me.

 

Firstly, keeping a marriage promise is not the be all and end all in ethics. If you make a bad promise, should you keep it? What if you promised to murder someone? Sometimes it is ethically better to break a promise than to keep it. It was the making of the promise that was unethical.

 

If neither you nor your W has cheated, why are you posting here? Do you want to know why you don't cheat? Maybe because you think breaking the promise is unethical, not the fact you made it. TBH, people in love do not feel they are behaving unethically IME, while they may care about the hurt they cause. Promises they stupidly made play no part.

 

When I was in an A, and in fact prior to the A, I would have liked my H to form an emotional attachment to someone else, with or without attendant sex. It would have made leaving him guilt free. And staying with him despite my wayward leanings more bearable too. I would have wished him luck. Not all people in As are hypocritical in this way.

 

And I agree with JJ that a cheater can still be a good person. Perhaps her MM is someone who made a bad promise, who doesn't like backing down from that promise, yet needs to fulfill certain obligations he entered into before he can be free to live out in the open celebrating his love.

 

I really don't think love is ever a bad thing. I think societal expectations often make it feel like it might be.

 

And cheating when you are not in love with the AP? I know little about that, but what I do know tells me that it doesn't work if you have a conscience or respect for the sex act. But I wouldn't judge someone who did that either. I probably wouldn't want a relationship with them though (hell, I sound like Dexter! )

 

 

You said the key word "Ethically ". Feeling as if a marriage is done isn't wrong, it's the way you handle that by cheating is wrong. It isn't ethical to deal with any human being that way. The behavior of cheating has less to do with love and more to do with respect. Respect by treating another person the way you would want to be treated. For the life of me I don't understand what is so hard about this concept.

[jennie-jennie]

The promise of fidelity does not necessarily appear in the wedding vows. It commonly is expressed long before the wedding (or even without a wedding) in conversations about "what does this relationship mean and where is it going?" or even earlier on: "are we monogamous?". You don't need a ceremony to make a promise and a commitment.

 

If your MM did not promise fidelity, why is he hiding the affair?

 

Does he feel he's been unfaithful? If so, why are you focusing on the vows he spoke as some sort of proof that he never promised fidelity?

 

Because everybody is making a big deal out of breaking your vows. To me it is about who you love. That is why I see nothing morally wrong in our relationship, because we love each other. Love can not be promised.

 

To me vows show an intent. If the object of love changes the intent is most likely no longer there.

[PhoenixRise]

A few points on this thread of interest to me.

 

Firstly, keeping a marriage promise is not the be all and end all in ethics. If you make a bad promise, should you keep it? What if you promised to murder someone? Sometimes it is ethically better to break a promise than to keep it. It was the making of the promise that was unethical..

 

Keeping a marriage promise might NOT be the be all and end all in ethics, but it IS an ethical issue. You can not compare a promise to commit murder with a marital promise. One is, on its face illegal and unethical the other is not. AND there is an ethical way to break a promise (marital) if you feel that it is a bad promise. You tell your spouse you will no longer be keeping that promise and you divorce. No deception necessary. People take that way of getting out of their marital promises all the time.

 

AND no. There is nothing unethical about a marital promise. IMO blaming the promise itself rather than the person who broke the promise is just blameshifting

If neither you nor your W has cheated, why are you posting here? Do you want to know why you don't cheat? Maybe because you think breaking the promise is unethical, not the fact you made it. TBH, people in love do not feel they are behaving unethically IME, while they may care about the hurt they cause. Promises they stupidly made play no part.

 

When I was in an A, and in fact prior to the A, I would have liked my H to form an emotional attachment to someone else, with or without attendant sex. It would have made leaving him guilt free. And staying with him despite my wayward leanings more bearable too. I would have wished him luck. Not all people in As are hypocritical in this way.

 

And I agree with JJ that a cheater can still be a good person. Perhaps her MM is someone who made a bad promise, who doesn't like backing down from that promise, yet needs to fulfill certain obligations he entered into before he can be free to live out in the open celebrating his love.

 

A cheater can have good qualities and can in some areas of their life be a good person, but pretending that the bad qualities as evidenced by the lying and deception don't exist is not facing reality. Blaming the promise itself

is also IMO not facing the reality and it negates the fact that the cheater, just like everybody else has the power to chose their behavior. They are responsible for making the promise and they are responsible for the way they chose to break the promise.

 

I really don't think love is ever a bad thing. I think societal expectations often make it feel like it might be.

 

Emotions are not bad. The actions that people take in the name of those emotions can be.

And cheating when you are not in love with the AP? I know little about that, but what I do know tells me that it doesn't work if you have a conscience or respect for the sex act. But I wouldn't judge someone who did that either. I probably wouldn't want a relationship with them though (hell, I sound like Dexter! )

 

My answers in bold above.

[Spark1111]

You said the key word "Ethically ". Feeling as if a marriage is done isn't wrong, it's the way you handle that by cheating is wrong. It isn't ethical to deal with any human being that way. The behavior of cheating has less to do with love and more to do with respect. Respect by treating another person the way you would want to be treated. For the life of me I don't understand what is so hard about this concept.

 

Spark's Rules or order:

 

Identify and communicate your unhappiness in your marital relationship to your SPOUSE, and INVITE THEM to do the same in a kind, non-confrontational manner. (Most couples have trouble with this, so pick up and read together how to positively communicate to each other.)

 

If that doesn't work, seek a MC, and often an IC too, and devote one year to trying to make it all it can possibly be. Be clear: This relationship means so much to me I do not want to leave it.

 

If that doesn't work, separate and continue or discontinue counseling: Your choice. BE CLEAR that you will both allow each other the option to date others.

 

MAKE A DECISION LIKE A GROWN UP.

 

If the marriage cannot be reconciled, DIVORCE amicably, and continue being respectful and kind parents. Leave your personal baggage at the counselors office.

 

Thank you.

[jennie-jennie]

And I agree with JJ that a cheater can still be a good person. Perhaps her MM is someone who made a bad promise, who doesn't like backing down from that promise, yet needs to fulfill certain obligations he entered into before he can be free to live out in the open celebrating his love.

 

That's my MM to a T.

[califnan]

Because everybody is making a big deal out of breaking your vows. To me it is about who you love. That is why I see nothing morally wrong in our relationship, because we love each other. Love can not be promised.

 

To me vows show an intent. If the object of love changes the intent is most likely no longer there.

 

------------------

 

Marriage is Under God.

 

What therefore God hath joined together, let not man put asunder.

 

Marriage is God's One Flesh Covenant ..

 

If I am in love with a MM, it is sin. The marriage is recognized by God, regardless the circumstances of the marriage .. If two sin within the marriage, they are responsible to God ..

[jennie-jennie]

------------------

 

Marriage is Under God.

 

What therefore God hath joined together, let not man put asunder.

 

Marriage is God's One Flesh Covenant ..

 

If I am in love with a MM, it is sin. The marriage is recognized by God, regardless the circumstances of the marriage .. If two sin within the marriage, they are responsible to God ..

 

Well, that only makes sense if you believe in God in the first place.

[Spark1111]

Listen, I'm tired of going around the morality bush.

 

If you deeply loved your spouse the way you love your OW/OM, the discovery of their betrayal with another is the most painful, devastating act one human can perpetrate on another.

 

If you did not, then you married for the wrong reasons, grew unhappy, and DID NOT DO ENOUGH to make it better before deciding to have an affair. LEAVE IT AND SET YOUR SPOUSE FREE....LIKE AN ADULT!

 

Put it this way, if the AP is the love of your life, and you discovered they had ANOTHER OW/OM is addition to you, you may have some idea how BS feels!

 

Everything else is smoke and BS%%T! and justifications and excuses, IMHO.

 

There is a WAY to do relationships RIGHT. Find out whAT IT IS, LEARN IT, DO, IT, or WALK AWAY and do less harm to others because of it.

[Steadfast]

 

Moral relativism, I believe that is the opposite of moral absolutism? Yes, I believe in moral relativism. Different people hold different morals. What is right for one, is wrong for another. There is no black and white. Life is so much more complicated than that.

 

 

I can say with absolutely no uncertainty that you do not believe that. Not truly, and especially where it involves your personal health and safety. You lock your doors, your car, secure your purse and countless other actions designed to protect yourself from wrongdoing. Whose wrong? Everyone's!

 

But that will be different you'll say. As long as you're not 'hurting' anyone.

 

In other words, it's wacky-smacky. Double talk. Justifiable insanity. Is love no different? Is personal responsibility a choice, or a demand? You rebel against the wrong thing; you've joined sides with the enemy. Go back.

 

Life is not complicated; it is utterly easy to understand and comprehend. So easy, the smallest child and animal can grasp. We pollute it with complication, then justify our actions with the very right of life. Sadness.

[Spark1111]

My thoughts on cheating: I think men and women get married for two different reasons - outside of love. A man may marry because he thinks it will mean than he will have uninterrupted love-making for the rest of his life. A woman man marry to be taken care of ..

 

If a woman is in a marriage and without contributing to the support of the family and is not attracted to her husband, and does not wish to make love to him - I think this is as bad as having her outside affair. Maybe it is seen that a stay-at-home mother is contributing because she does all of the childcare and household jobs that may have a price on them .. But, aside from getting a paycheck - working outside the home is a sacrifice - and Not to be compared with a stay-at-home wife .. I have spent decades on both ends - as a woman who maintained a house, gardens, pool and a cook - who cared for her children.. and as a woman who worked outside the home.. There is no comparison. The woman who works outside the home is definitely the one with the biggest grueling sacrifice (and many times she still must attend to her household duties when she returns) ..

 

What I am trying to get to, is that if a woman within the "marriage" does not wish to have sex with her husband, and additionally she doesn't contribute to the household finances - she should not be in the marriage..

 

Califnan....HAVE to disagree here. I have worked inside the home and outside the home and THERE IS NO JOB ON THE PLANET harder than being a stay at home mom with a household to take care of. NO JOB!

 

It is the most exhausting one I have ever had, and I have been an investigative journalist!

 

The job can energize, enliven, and give you some excitement, meet new people and YOU GET PAID FOR IT.

 

SAHM, the toughest, most exhausting job on the planet.

[xxoo]

Because everybody is making a big deal out of breaking your vows. To me it is about who you love. That is why I see nothing morally wrong in our relationship, because we love each other. Love can not be promised.

 

Love can not be promised. Frankly, I agree with that. That is why I hold divorce as a valid option.

 

But conditions of a relationship can be agreed upon, and promised. If they promised each other monogamy, and he hasn't informed her otherwise, it is morally wrong to have sex with another person while letting her believe he is still monogamous. If he never promised her monogamy, why is he hiding the affair? His deception proves his guilt.

 

Fine, break the vows. I'm not religious, and didn't speak a single vow at our wedding. But be honest! If you agree to monogamy, let your partner know before you decide to go another route. It's the right thing to do.

[Got it]

Spark,

 

This applies to the BS as well.

 

Fear is a great motivator and a great paralysis. Above love, above respect, above all else, unfortunately fear tends to be the motivating factor for all parties. That is the sad point. If you can take out fear, what would people choose?

[PhoenixRise]

Listen, I'm tired of going around the morality bush.

 

If you deeply loved your spouse the way you love your OW/OM, the discovery of their betrayal with another is the most painful, devastating act one human can perpetrate on another.

 

If you did not, then you married for the wrong reasons, grew unhappy, and DID NOT DO ENOUGH to make it better before deciding to have an affair. LEAVE IT AND SET YOUR SPOUSE FREE....LIKE AN ADULT!

 

Put it this way, if the AP is the love of your life, and you discovered they had ANOTHER OW/OM is addition to you, you may have some idea how BS feels!

 

Everything else is smoke and BS%%T! and justifications and excuses, IMHO.

 

There is a WAY to do relationships RIGHT. Find out whAT IT IS, LEARN IT, DO, IT, or WALK AWAY and do less harm to others because of it.

 

Well said Spark.