Author BrittB Posted March 11, 2010 Author Posted March 11, 2010 He claims "it's not like that." He says that if he has an interest in something -- let's say chess -- that I don't like, if he happens to run into a girl who likes to do that, he should be able to meet up with her -- just the two of them -- and play. As long as I know and QUOTE] ----------------- NO .. Britt . I know. And I appreciate all the help everyone's given me here. I had no idea it would be such a rude awakening. I started out just wanting to talk to him about it all, but the more I discuss it here, the more I see that it's a much worse situation than I thought -- or than I wanted to see it was. To be honset, I think I'll try to rationalize his behavior a few more times before I pull the trigger, but as I get unhappier and unhappier, I know I can't hold on.
califnan Posted March 11, 2010 Posted March 11, 2010 I know. And I appreciate all the help everyone's given me here. I had no idea it would be such a rude awakening. I started out just wanting to talk to him about it all, but the more I discuss it here, the more I see that it's a much worse situation than I thought -- or than I wanted to see it was. To be honset, I think I'll try to rationalize his behavior a few more times before I pull the trigger, but as I get unhappier and unhappier, I know I can't hold on. ---------------------- Let's just say - for argument's sake: He is happy as a lark .. has his woman - and he feels that he is so diverse and wonderful, that it is good to also have another lady to play chess with ... Getting by with chess, certainly he can go to the movies with another woman as well ... Let's just say also, that he and you do endure and with his insistance that you "trust" him ... Very likely the OW(s) .. may get other ideas in time - and wish to draw closer to him .. .. Britt: The Whole thing is planting bad seeds .. A Man and a Woman within the marriage are supposed to Need each other, only ..
Author BrittB Posted March 11, 2010 Author Posted March 11, 2010 Couldn't agree more about planting seeds, califnan. I've told him that, and he says he'll let the OW know that this is not what he's looking for. He says I should be able to trust him to have the strength and integrity to do that. He was married about ten years ago (in his late teens), and he cheated on her while engaged. She then turned around and cheated on him in the marriage. His excuse was that he was too young and immature to get married, and that's why he cheated. That story is always in the back of my mind when he's with OW. If he had the capability to do it before, he could do it again. Another red flag, I suppose.
califnan Posted March 11, 2010 Posted March 11, 2010 ----------------------- About a month ago I googled and came up with a marriage counceler who validated that Husband and Wife should not speak to others of the opposite sex on a regular basis .. Once in a while if he runs into a colleage at work - to have a passing conversation with her about what she is doing .. but not to keep up with other women on a daily basis .. The Wife should be the Only woman in the marriage ...(This is part of God's plan as well) .. Guess that pretty much rules out going to the movies, also. /QUOTE] Britt: This counselor is the one who said additionally: the the husband and wife in the marriage are to have the Need, for only each other .. Need is what keeps the marriage, also ..
califnan Posted March 11, 2010 Posted March 11, 2010 Britt, Rather than these bits and pieces - I will get the entire article for you to look up ... will do it tonight ..
Spark1111 Posted March 11, 2010 Posted March 11, 2010 Entering marriage with the intention of keeping secrets from each other, including secret friends of the opposite sex is a recipe for disaster! There can be NO SECRETS in an intimate and trusting relationship, period. If he wouldn't talk to, be with, or look at it without you at his side, well, then that is a secret or secret behavior. Can you bring this up at your next PMC session? You should do so immediately.
troggleputty Posted March 11, 2010 Posted March 11, 2010 Cancel the wedding. Your fiance is cheating on you, and lying to you. If he can't keep his mind on you and you alone with the wedding coming up, what will change after you get married? You can do better. At the risk of repeating myself, allow me to repeat myself.
whichwayisup Posted March 11, 2010 Posted March 11, 2010 His excuse was that he was too young and immature to get married Seems he hasn't changed..His behaviour is still the same and if he isn't physically cheating on you now, he will at some point. You DO know he's emotionally cheating on you, getting his ego stroked by having women friends.
carhill Posted March 11, 2010 Posted March 11, 2010 Like I said prior, plenty of time. You both have a lot invested here so let's not piss it away summarily. Most of his friends, however, live out of town. He even wanted one of his close out-of-town female friends to be "best woman" in the wedding, but decided on her husband instead. He recently started emailing with an old high school friend (the one I'll meet Saturday), but their contact has been much too frequent to me. Constant daily emails, to be exact. He's always skeptical about guys when I meet them because I have mostly women friends. But my existing guy friends that I had before we met? He's got no problem with them at all and welcomes them at the wedding.Looking at this quote, and your concerns, would it be reasonable to find a mutually agreeable boundary to this dynamic at your next PMC session? To me, since he's skeptical of you meeting new male friends, then that's a healthy boundary. He can enjoy your old male friends at the wedding and you can enjoy his old female friends and welcome ones DH as his best man and, moving forward, your marriage will be prioritized over forming new opposite sex friendships. After all, he seems to be headed in that direction wrt to you and male friends. Sounds reasonable to me. You each give a little. Everything is transparent. Old friends socialize with each of you and both of you. I like friends. Wonderful parts of living. Let us know how the session goes
ladydesigner Posted March 11, 2010 Posted March 11, 2010 OMG sweetie if he is already hiding friends (girls) and has cheated in the past it is really in your best interest to start distancing yourself, get into counseling, call off the M, and then leave. Be thankful you do not have kids together. It will only get worse. Do not tie yourself to this con man. What he needs is an open relationship not marriage.
pureinheart Posted March 11, 2010 Posted March 11, 2010 This is what I'm afraid of. He's agreed to PMC already, and we've been going to this 3-month program. In counseling, he's been open, honest and has discussed things that he needs/wants to work on, but not this. It's like he didn't see that there was anything wrong with doing this until I had a problem with it. It feels like he's only apologized and changed his behavior because he knows he hurt me, and that he shouldn't have lied. What worries me is that I think he's rationalized it as MY problem in his head. He says that he plans to have many female friends in the future, all of whom I can meet before he starts hanging out with them. But if he wants to go to a movie or something with her -- just the two of them -- and they don't feel like inviting me, it should be OK because I should trust him. I don't know how to explain to him that this just feels WRONG to me! He thinks it sounds perfectly rational and normal and that I should be just fine with it all. He even told me last night that he thinks he has no character flaws anymore, after working on a couple of issues ... on his own. I was shocked, horrified, disappointed and disgusted when I heard him say this. This is a man who was physically, emotionally and spiritually abused horribly for the first 18 years of his life and has never had therapy for it. I'm afraid he's going to carry this "I know best" idea into the marriage and use it as a license to put himself in all kinds of compromising situations with other women. From what you said this sounds like the younger version of my exDM (divorced man). He did the same thing to his exW (wife) and said priddy much the same things. After my observations over the years with exDM, he seems to be "in heat" most of the time, it's rather disgusting and very disrespectful. What I have in bold is your proof right there, he is mostlikely acting out through sex...or the possibility... It almost sounds like mild forms of gaslighting...without a desire to get better, because of the abuse it will get worse...it's not going to go away unless a miracle were to take place. Good luck to you...having been in many R (relationships), mostly with abused men...I've got more stories that are unfortunately true. I'm single now.
Author BrittB Posted March 12, 2010 Author Posted March 12, 2010 Like I said prior, plenty of time. You both have a lot invested here so let's not piss it away summarily. Looking at this quote, and your concerns, would it be reasonable to find a mutually agreeable boundary to this dynamic at your next PMC session? I'd like to find an agreeable boundary, but he's seemed to resist that. After he told me about the "friend," we met to discuss our future. I gave him a list of things that HAD to happen for us to continue. He agreed to everything, but the one thing he didn't was spending time with OW alone. He says that I wouldn't be uncomfortable about that if I just trusted him. I called our counselor, and we're meeting privately about the whole thing before our next couples session. I hate living like this. I'm constantly wondering what he's doing. Like I said in the OP, I can't continue in this relationship without A) knowing the whole truth about everything he's done and with whom he's done it, and B) knowing that he cares enough to never do anything like this again. He's really trying to show me B, but I don't think I'll ever get A out of him.
carhill Posted March 12, 2010 Posted March 12, 2010 Here's a hard one, and you'll have to look in the mirror.... the man who he is and was when you met him is the man you were and apparently are attracted to. If you weren't, you'd have walked a long time ago. Something about him is keeping you in the game. That something was there when you met him, when he pursued you (while pursuing other 'friends') and while you developed your relationship. IMO, identifying that part of you and resolving it, especially if you listen to the predominant sentiment here and cancel the wedding, is crucial going forward, whether re-inventing your relationship with him in the future or becoming involved with another man. It's easy to say he's wrong and is hurting your relationship and potential marriage; if he is, he's wrong for you, your relationship style and personality. Can you accept that, and adjunct to that acceptance, accept that you play a role in this as well, a role of choice and attraction? You're lucky; you're dealing with all this prior to getting married. I had to deal with it prior to getting divorced. IMO, that mirror is far inferior to the one you're enjoying now. Make good use of it Tell me, if he were to take an old female friend (not an ex, but a long-time platonic friend, which I presume these to be) to lunch .... 'hon, I'm taking xxx to lunch today', would you still feel prioritized as his fiance and/or wife? Why? If you were to do the same, how would you feel? If he attempted to limit whom and how you have contact with people in your life, how would you feel about that? IMO, this is all about compatibility. Talk with the counselor about your role in that. You are in charge of *you*. You have no control whatsoever over him. Accept that. Good luck
on1wheel Posted March 12, 2010 Posted March 12, 2010 Advice is something we ask of others when we already know the truth, but it is too painful to accept. You know that your marriage will end in divorce & so does almost evryone here. I say this because he has already shown that what he wants is more important than working with you for what's best for both of you...as a couple. This will happen even more often once the stresses of marriage, a house, kids etc gets too much for him. He is a selfish man & will be til' he decides there's something too important to loose. As for where he was, I think you know that too. He was probably cheating on you; that's why there has been no reasonable excuse offered yet. Do yourself a favour & end it now. Find a man with morals more in line with yours. If not, then remember what I have told you on your D-day; you could have avoided it. I hope you heed my warning, as it is meant to save you from what I have lived through. I ignored the warning signs & have endured the worst imaginable as a result of my mistake. I wish you well.
hoping2heal Posted March 12, 2010 Posted March 12, 2010 My fiance and I are planning an August wedding, but he recently admitted to having a secret female friend. I've always been uncomfortable with the fact that he makes more girl friends than guy friends, and he seems to be making new ones while in a serious relationship with me. We've had numerous arguments about it. He says the arguments are why he didn't tell me about this girl. He only confessed because I confronted him about two instances in which he seemed to be lying about his whereabouts. He had lame excuses for both instances and maintains that he wasn't with this or any other girl at those times. I also found texts between him and a girl (whose name he had hidden under a male coworker's name). They were fairly harmless, but I hate that he hid her name. I never told him I knew about this. Since the confession 3 weeks ago, he's gone back and forth between remorse for lying and impatience with me for not being able to rebuild trust easily. Now, he's spending tons more time with me, and he's making me aware of everything he does, and he has said that he wants to do whatever he needs to do to regain my trust and make me comfortable with him in this relationship. He also said he's ended the secret friendship because of the shady circumstances under which it started. I love him and want to get married, but I just don't think I can move on from this until I've gotten the full story. I still don't know where he was in those two instances. The girl whose number he hid in his phone is a girl we've argued about before. I feel like I'm being given partial truths, and he's hoping that'll be enough for me to stop talking about it. I can't concentrate on the wedding at all, and I've already checked on fees for postponement ... they're not good. How do I get the whole truth out of him while not making him defensive? I'm trying to save things, but another part of me tells me he's lying and cheating, and to cut my losses. I think the line he gave you about not telling you because it causes fights is extremely manipulative. Yes, maybe you would of been - maybe there would of been a fight. What is his logic? Avoid telling you the truth about ANY subject that may cause a fight? I don't think so Tim. He didn't tell you about that woman because he is hiding something and as for you feeling like you need "the whole truth" to move forward..that's going to be an uphill battle for you..he has already been dishonest and lying about another woman so it will always be in the back of your mind "is that REALLY it?" "Is there more?" Lastly, I know some people will cry foul and I could care less - but if you need to go outside of your relationship and start "friendships" with the opposite sex it is because some need you have is not being met in the relationship you have. I'm not saying - ignore all your co workers who are male (I know some extreme person will go there; they always do) but forming a close bond with someone else of the opposite sex? I don't think it's necessary. I have a man in my life - I don't need any other ones. I have female friends and I'm fine with them- There are a few males in my life that I talk to and those that are there I talk to on a very casual level but that is it. I don't open up to them like I do with the man in my life and I don't spend ANY alone time. I don't know about this guy..
hoping2heal Posted March 12, 2010 Posted March 12, 2010 I'd like to find an agreeable boundary, but he's seemed to resist that. After he told me about the "friend," we met to discuss our future. I gave him a list of things that HAD to happen for us to continue. He agreed to everything, but the one thing he didn't was spending time with OW alone. He says that I wouldn't be uncomfortable about that if I just trusted him. I called our counselor, and we're meeting privately about the whole thing before our next couples session. I hate living like this. I'm constantly wondering what he's doing. Like I said in the OP, I can't continue in this relationship without A) knowing the whole truth about everything he's done and with whom he's done it, and B) knowing that he cares enough to never do anything like this again. He's really trying to show me B, but I don't think I'll ever get A out of him. If he were trying to show he really cares for YOU he would not even have an OW, PERIOD and since he has kept her secret - and spends alone time with her? That's what she is - an other woman. You need to start remembering that words don't build houses sweetheart - him refusing to stop spending time with her alone is about as big as a red flag can get in a relationship.
Author BrittB Posted March 13, 2010 Author Posted March 13, 2010 If he were trying to show he really cares for YOU he would not even have an OW, PERIOD and since he has kept her secret - and spends alone time with her? That's what she is - an other woman. You need to start remembering that words don't build houses sweetheart - him refusing to stop spending time with her alone is about as big as a red flag can get in a relationship. I try to find a reasonable defense for him because of his words and reformatory actions, but the fact is that I no longer trust him. If he doesn't have the guts to tell the truth, there will never be trust. I am so sad about this because we've been through so much together. I think I've looked for ways to work it out because of that. We've been like best friends to each other, but like you said, apparently I haven't been a good enough friend and girlfriend because he feels he needs other women too. I've thought many times that if we weren't engaged, I wouldn't be here. He spent a lot on the ring; he's paid for the honeymoon; my parents have done so much work and spent so much money, and they LOVE him. I think I'm part of the problem ... thinking about everyone else's feelings instead of my own.
BB07 Posted March 13, 2010 Posted March 13, 2010 It seems your gut instinct is telling you to put a hold on this wedding, and it's also telling you that you need some clarity about his stance on exactly what constitutes acceptable friendships with other women...........isn't that right? It would suck to always be looking over shoulder and always second guessing if there is more to the story. If you can't trust the guy.......how in the world are you going to solve all the other issues that come up in marriage? Lack of trust = No marriage.
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