unsureLP Posted March 12, 2010 Posted March 12, 2010 I'd love to think that but I'm not sure I'd go that far. I still worry that she is using me. She, after all, has no real work experience and pretty low earning potential. After she gets her degree, she'll enter the workforce at entry level. I'll make 3x more than she does at least for the next 3 or 4 years probably. So it still could be an issue. If I was her, I would be thinking "oh s*** what am I going to do if we get a D". Ok, good point.
JamesM Posted March 12, 2010 Posted March 12, 2010 Oneday let me be the first to tell you, recons are not very liked here. If you are looking for support on the subject here, good luck, it's very scarce. Most people will just send you negativity and tell you to wake up. Don't listen to the haters, they are just jealous that you have accomplished what they couldn't. The easiest way to spot one is read their post log, if they blame the other person for the break up then they are a hater. TOTALLY agree. Always look at the previous threads or posts of a person, and if you cannot get a feel for the background of someone, then assume that this person has another name here and may have told their story under that name. The past of someone does not mean that their input is not valuable. Far from it. What it does help you understand is why they have their opinion and it helps you understand how their situation is similar or dissimilar from your own. If they show a tendency to always post a "Divorce the b*tch" type advice, then perhaps realizing why they post this will help you to balance their advice with someone's advice who has had a different experience than they have had. Always remember, you know your situation best and it is your life. We do not live with the consequences...you do. If your mind instinctively tells you that there is hope or isn't hope, then perhaps your mind is right.
unsureLP Posted March 12, 2010 Posted March 12, 2010 TOTALLY agree. Always look at the previous threads or posts of a person, and if you cannot get a feel for the background of someone, then assume that this person has another name here and may have told their story under that name. The past of someone does not mean that their input is not valuable. Far from it. What it does help you understand is why they have their opinion and it helps you understand how their situation is similar or dissimilar from your own. If they show a tendency to always post a "Divorce the b*tch" type advice, then perhaps realizing why they post this will help you to balance their advice with someone's advice who has had a different experience than they have had. Always remember, you know your situation best and it is your life. We do not live with the consequences...you do. If your mind instinctively tells you that there is hope or isn't hope, then perhaps your mind is right. And this is why I like James' and tnttim's advice.
tnttim Posted March 12, 2010 Posted March 12, 2010 Pm me an e-mail address. I need to send you some info ASAP.
Gunny376 Posted March 12, 2010 Posted March 12, 2010 The easiest way to spot one is read their post log, if they blame the other person for the break up then they are a hater. What! A classic example of bi-polar logic! Its not just that simple. People are not two dimensional, nor are their relationships. Rather they are much like a multi facet diamond with many sides. I wasn't say that OP's DW was using him just for the student loans, just raising his awareness to a potential threat based on a short term decision with long term consequences. She can sign anything she wants to saying that she and she alone is responsible for repaying the student loan, but that will in no way change the binding contract that the OP signed for the student loan. Bottom line? She defaults? They will be coming after him. And they are ruthless in their pursuit. They're like the Terminator, they never stop, its what they do. With that said? Let's refocus the conversation on reconciliation, as it is this that is the OP's primary focus at the present.
Gunny376 Posted March 12, 2010 Posted March 12, 2010 I've read a lot, have a lot of books on relationships, have scoured Barnes and Noble, Books A Million, Amazon. In all that time I have only come across one or two that directly address how to get back a love that you've lost. One of them by Eric Weber, "How To Win Back The One You Love" focuses on communication, how to argue, gives you communication techniques and methods for doing such. Because without communication, no matter how hard, difficult and painful it may be? You've got nothing. One thing I cannot emphasis enough when it does come to reconciliation? You cannot MAKE it happen! You have to let it happen in and of its own accord. Reconciliation happens all of the time, its just not commonly recognized. Why? Because the relationship is 're-born' in a form that is not recognizable of what it was of its former self. The relationship and the people are forever changed. And the change when it does happen? Is forever.
troggleputty Posted March 12, 2010 Posted March 12, 2010 If you read ODAAT's analysis of his marriage, then you can read that even he admits that he was controlling. This was one of the factors that led to the deterioration of the marriage. I was responding to the facts and circumstances at present, as I perceived what he wrote. Whatever was going on in the past, it is clearly not he who is doing the controlling at this point, IMO.
JamesM Posted March 12, 2010 Posted March 12, 2010 Whatever was going on in the past, it is clearly not he who is doing the controlling at this point, IMO. Agreed. But I think the point was made that in order to rebuild, she may need to feel that she is able to "control" what happens and it is not all about what he wants or what he thinks is best for them. By "allowing" her to choose, then he shows that she is important in what happens in their relationship. And as I was typing (on a different note), perhaps the over spending that she did was a passive aggressive response to her feeling that she had no control over her life. Just a thought to consider.
JamesM Posted March 12, 2010 Posted March 12, 2010 What! A classic example of bi-polar logic! Its not just that simple. People are not two dimensional, nor are their relationships. Rather they are much like a multi facet diamond with many sides. I enjoy reading many of your posts, and I see much great advice....so I rarely comment on what you say because I can add nothing. However, (you knew that was coming ), I think it is important to know the background of who is offering advice. It not only tells the reader where the poster gets his or her opinions, but it also gives credibility to the person posting. A "woman/man hater" soon shows true colors in these types of threads. And if we do not know the background then we ignore all advice even if there is some nuggets of truth contained among the vitriol against one gender. Or a new poster may take the advice to heart without realizing that said advice is tainted by a tormented past. We are multi faceted creatures, but we can easily get on one track and lose focus when too many emotions are involved. Back to the reconciliation subject. And I agree 100%. It does happen much more than is recognized. It does not always involves adultery, and many times the fact that the marriage is that badly in trouble may never be known by anyone but the family involved. To assume that adultery must equal divorce and reconciliation is never possible can only ignore the many cases where reconciliation happens. Is it easy? No. But with two people cooperating (and that is the key) it is entirely possible.
Author onedayatatyme Posted March 12, 2010 Author Posted March 12, 2010 I'm not saying that's the case here but yes, they are. Subconsciously or not. It's so tough isn't it? During my marriage breakup my wife sent so many mixed signals I thought she'd taken a course in military spy code. I surfed the internet and read everything I could get my hands on to try to understand, but in the end it all boils down to this; if a person loves you they won't cheat and they won't waffle. Loves you means loves you, period. What does halfway really mean? Halfway is self-serving and uncaring, manipulative. Halfway is undecided and in my book undecided is a decision all in itself. Who wants to be the best of several bad choices? In the end, unless she says "I'm sorry. I've damaged our relationship with my actions and betrayed you, but I'm willing to do whatever it takes to save our marriage and regain your trust" then it's probably smoke and mirrors. What we 'want' to believe hardly ever figures in. I think you're dead on with this post. Lot's of food for thought
troggleputty Posted March 12, 2010 Posted March 12, 2010 Oh, I should also point out... because it just popped back into my head. Staying with me is actually a catch 22 for her regardign school. If I refuse to co-sign the loans (behavior she will absolutely consider controlling), then her best option to finish school will be to file for D ASAP. Here's why: She is going to a very small, private liberal arts college. They base their financial aid very much on need. Something like 60% of the students are getting grants. She doesn't qualify for anything because of my income. If I effectively pull her out of school by refusing to take out another loan, her best option will be to leave me. That school is so friendly and she is so close to graduation that they will absolutely bend over backward to make sure she graduates if she suddenly becomes a single mother of two. They may give her a full ride for her last semester and a half. She knows this, we've already talked about it. So I'm not sure in her mind that she thinks she needs me to finish school. She'll be delayed, no doubt, but she probably realizes she'll be able to finish without me. oneday, this kind of confirms the point I was trying to make. It doesn't take much reading between the lines to interpret the above as meaning, "she's only staying with me to facilitate getting through college." So, if you don't pay for her college at a private liberal arts place, (or co sign which for all intents and purposes is the same thing as far as you know) then she'll dump you. O.K. at least you realize that. By the way, her promise to be responsible for the loans if you divorce is meaningless and proves that she has no intention of paying for them, because she is responsible for them already. You're just the co-signer. She's already promised to pay back the school directly. Either she's going to do that, or she isn't going to do that, in which case you will have to pay. Yes you would have a legal right of indemnification against her, if you have to pay, but you already have that. Any co-signer to a loan is entitled to indemnification if the primary borrower defaults. If she breaks her word by not paying the loan back, then the pieces of paper she's already signed are meaningless to her. Additional pieces of paper may give you a legal right to get the money back from her, but that's not the same as the actual money, which the school knows very well, and which is why it needs a co-signer. The school needs a co-signer because they do not believe your spouse is trustworthy or reliable to pay back the loan all by herself. What is that telling you? Your spouse has also been unfaithful, "cheated," obviously during that process lied/concealed many times. Someone else posted that their boyfriend co-signed on $2500.00, but in your case it sounds like a lot more money. Also the other poster did not indicate she had cheated on her then-bf and he decided to co-sign anyway. Further her bf at that time may have been willing to "take a chance," in his mind knowing that if she defaulted on the $2500 he was unlikely to ever get it back. Your situation is different obviously. You are dealing with a person whose fundamental integrity level is at best "questionable." And obviously I'm trying to be charitable by calling it "questionable." The real "test" if you want to call it that of your wife's supposed love for you and wish to reconcile would be, if she wants to be with you even without the financial quid pro quo of your supporting her school efforts at this private lib arts (i.e.: costly) college. Why not suggest she take the next semester off from school so you two can work on your relationship together? Certainly her perception of financial realities is incredibly off kilter. If she cannot even afford her own schooling without a co-signer how can she justify the expense of pedicures? This is clearly a woman who lives in a world dominated by self-entitlement. Pedicures and student loans do not mix, I'm sorry to have to say.
Gunny376 Posted March 12, 2010 Posted March 12, 2010 I agree with you point James, one must always consider the spring source when seeking counsel and advice. But oftentimes it is well to "take a fool's advice" of someone who's been there and done that. I also do not usually make comment to your post for the same reason. Maybe we can start a mutual admiration society?
Author onedayatatyme Posted March 12, 2010 Author Posted March 12, 2010 I was responding to the facts and circumstances at present, as I perceived what he wrote. Whatever was going on in the past, it is clearly not he who is doing the controlling at this point, IMO. Troggle, you're right. The control pendulum has swung way too far the other way. But I feel it moving back toward center. It really was pretty easy. I have (as best I can) stopped reacting emotionally to her emotions. If she's ranting and raving, I'm trying to remain calm as I state and explain my position. When she starts name calling and yelling, I'm calmly telling her it's not cool and it's not going to get a reaction out of me. One of her tactics is to just shut off the conversation. I start disagreeing and she just walks off. Last time she did it, I texted her and explained very calmly why it was in HER best interest to let me have my say. That particular conversation happened to be about her being mad that I have moved several thousand $$$ into a new personal account that she doesn't have access too. For weeks she had been accusing me of plotting to leave her penniless and homeless. Then she would kill the conversation before I had a chance to explain. So the last time it came up and she hung up on me, I texted her and told her the following: "When u want to talk to me with respect, which means listening without freaking out, I'm here to talk. Until then, I don't know what to say... I try and try to talk to you but as soon as we don't see eye to eye, you shut down. I'm doing what I'm doing with the money for a reason. You don't have to agree but it would be in your best interests to try and understand me. You can assume I'm being a prick just to be a prick or you can let down your guard and talk to me. Your choice." She's been quite a bit more respectful since then.
Gunny376 Posted March 12, 2010 Posted March 12, 2010 I'd love to think that but I'm not sure I'd go that far. I still worry that she is using me. She, after all, has no real work experience and pretty low earning potential. After she gets her degree, she'll enter the workforce at entry level. I'll make 3x more than she does at least for the next 3 or 4 years probably. So it still could be an issue. If I was her, I would be thinking "oh s*** what am I going to do if we get a D". I live and work in a "university town" and know plenty of people that have college degrees (some more than one) that are working jobs that they could have gotten without a college degree. Some are working the same jobs that they had while an undergraduate. In this economy there are people with Master's degrees and years of experience working jobs they could have gotten without a college degree. Some are even down-grading their resume, stating they've just a HS degree to get any kind of a job. I saw one guy with a MBA with years of experience on Wall Street driving a taxi in NYNY. Sadly, in most parts of the country, getting a job is more a function of who you know than what you know.
Author onedayatatyme Posted March 12, 2010 Author Posted March 12, 2010 Agreed. But I think the point was made that in order to rebuild, she may need to feel that she is able to "control" what happens and it is not all about what he wants or what he thinks is best for them. By "allowing" her to choose, then he shows that she is important in what happens in their relationship. And as I was typing (on a different note), perhaps the over spending that she did was a passive aggressive response to her feeling that she had no control over her life. Just a thought to consider. James, now you are inside her head. This is exactly the same conclusion I've come to. It's when I leave her no options that she starts going nutty. One day I told her that if she wanted to stay married to me, she needed to stay at the house 'cause I was on my way to talk. I was tired of the silence and not knowing what she was thinking. My timing was TERRIBLE. I way overstepped the mark. She had been up all night puking and had a test that day. What a moron I was. Well she went nuts. At the time, I thought she was just nuts. In hindsight, I realize I was really an inconsiderate @zz. I was totally consumed with what was going on in my head and didn't even consider the night she'd had or her school responsibilities for that day before I laid out what sounded like an ultimatum. She was really ready to walk out on me that day. I left her no options. I was essentially saying "you do what I want, right now, and screw your test or I'm leaving". I left her very little choice. She's at a point in her life where she is absolutely going to take control of herself. I don't blamer her, everybody deserves that. In the past, the credit debt and I think the affair to some degree was her searching for independence from me. This makes the whole issue of the student loans quite sticky.
Steadfast Posted March 12, 2010 Posted March 12, 2010 Oneday let me be the first to tell you, recons are not very liked here. If you are looking for support on the subject here, good luck, it's very scarce. Most people will just send you negativity and tell you to wake up. Don't listen to the haters, they are just jealous that you have accomplished what they couldn't. The easiest way to spot one is read their post log, if they blame the other person for the break up then they are a hater. Tim, you're painting with a very wide brush here. There is no doubt this board has its share of bitterness, but I caution to you and everyone else looking for advice to recognize the pattern of behavior exhibited by someone going through marriage breakup. There's shock, denial, self-loathing, panic...loneliness...and eventually, anger that sometimes comes across as hate. We all feel it because we've all felt it. Others, like Gunny for example are far more stable and consistent in their answers and attitudes due to study, experience and the gift of time. I have never met even one betrayed spouse that didn't want to reconcile. Don't confuse that with the person who realized it was best to finally let the other person go and move on. Certain patterns and actions do anger us (and bring about strong, vivid memories) and that is often stated clearly.
hopesndreams Posted March 12, 2010 Posted March 12, 2010 Oneday let me be the first to tell you, recons are not very liked here. If you are looking for support on the subject here, good luck, it's very scarce. Most people will just send you negativity and tell you to wake up. Don't listen to the haters, they are just jealous that you have accomplished what they couldn't. The easiest way to spot one is read their post log, if they blame the other person for the break up then they are a hater. You can bend over backwards and do cartwheels for this woman and it wouldn't be enough. I'm not a hater, not pro-divorce and not jealous of anyone's recon. If you want to know where I'm coming from, it's all in my thread that I started a year ago, February. She's biding her time. She has already left you mentally, emotionally and physically. All that is left is manipulation. She is not the woman you know anymore. The only thing left for you to do that will have positive result is to give her what she wants, which is her freedom from you. Do not give her money, loans, a hug, a dinner, a pedicure date. Nothing. You will then see what she has been thinking all along. She wants out. Or, it could turn the tables, she could then realize what she is losing, jump into your arms and beg forgiveness. Everything else and inbetween is a mind f*ck which will destroy whatever self-esteem you have left and it will take years to recover, if ever. The end result? When she is ready, she will let you know.
Author onedayatatyme Posted March 12, 2010 Author Posted March 12, 2010 Everything else and inbetween is a mind f*ck which will destroy whatever self-esteem you have left and it will take years to recover, if ever. The end result? When she is ready, she will let you know. This is the true risk I'm running. I don't care about losing a few months but I am worried about what phycological damage I might be subjecting myself to in the process. Things as they are right now are just so unnatural and forced.
hopesndreams Posted March 12, 2010 Posted March 12, 2010 This is the true risk I'm running. I don't care about losing a few months but I am worried about what phycological damage I might be subjecting myself to in the process. Things as they are right now are just so unnatural and forced. Only those that have experienced infidelity, first hand, know the true horrors of it and the pain and stress you are under. You cannot get it out of a book. For all those with good intentions who have never went through it themselves, their advice is catering to you, helping you feel better and to give you hope, even though it's a false hope. You want to forgive, move forward, reconcile and by her actions, she has other plans. She is the one throwing it all away and for what? Most likely just the butterfly feeling in the pit of the stomach. After many years with a person, a mature love comes into play and some are just incapable of that. Love and respect yourself first. You don't need someone in your life who will stick the knife in and twist it. You are worthy.
Steadfast Posted March 13, 2010 Posted March 13, 2010 Only those that have experienced infidelity, first hand, know the true horrors of it and the pain and stress you are under. You cannot get it out of a book. For all those with good intentions who have never went through it themselves, their advice is catering to you, helping you feel better and to give you hope, even though it's a false hope. Well that is certainly true. And well said. Not so sure about the false hope though, unless it's someone saying; "Just give it time! I'm sure XXXXX will come to their senses and everything will be alright." Or..."Have you tried talking to her? How about marriage counseling? Maybe you should buy her some flowers? Take her on a special date, just the two of you?" Like that. If the chasm of opinion is confusing to me, I'll go out on a limb and say it's confusing to others too. One side insists the problem lies from within; change you, and the betrayer will recognize this and return. The other side ("Divorce the Bitch!!") usually comes from the segment that identifies the patterns of infidelity and betrayal and wishes to bring the betrayed closer to healing in one fell swoop. But, as we all know, it just isn't that easy. The truth is onedayatatyme, you'll have to go through it, step by step, just like all of us have. Or currently are. Most people have very good instincts regarding how people really feel about them, and it'll be up to you to listen and apply what you know to your situation. You've heard it before but it bears repeating again; if only perfect people remain married, then everyone would be divorced. Likewise, there are changes to make and ways to better ourselves regardless of what happens to your marriage. This, however, I can say is true for certain: Love and respect yourself first. You don't need someone in your life who will stick the knife in and twist it. You are worthy. That's the deal maker in my book too. Without love and respect for yourself, it's impossible for someone else to love and respect you. Look deeper into this statement and you may recognize your wife's dilemma-
tnttim Posted March 13, 2010 Posted March 13, 2010 Oneday when I was waffling on what to do with W, or deal with what W did I would go for the twofer. Basically I would try to figure what 1 thing I could do that would help the divorce and the recon equally. Sometimes it was really easy, like going on a date with her. I read about some seduction techniques and I tried them out on her, I figured either way it was helping me figure out if they worked or not. I also read about agreeing with her negativity when she confronted me with anger. In my mind either way it helped me figure out things about myself, and women in general. They both worked in my case to help the recon get rolling. I'm not giving books 100% credit because the 180 post tells you to do things opposite of what you would normally do, and neither I normally did.
tnttim Posted March 13, 2010 Posted March 13, 2010 This is the true risk I'm running. I don't care about losing a few months but I am worried about what phycological damage I might be subjecting myself to in the process. Things as they are right now are just so unnatural and forced. Why are you worried about that? Worry doesn't solve problems, in fact it adds to your exsisting problems. Look up self fulfilling prophecy and negative thoughts. Basically if you think things will be bad, they will be bad because your mind doesn't like to be called a liar. I know how you feel though, this is the 3 months ago me talking right now. You don't want her to break your heart again. You are filled with hope, but you question it, and think it might be false hope. You read a bunch of posts telling you to wake up, she's using you, and it only makes it worse. I understand completely how you feel right now. You'll get over it in time, this is the present me talking. Time does heal all wounds, and leaves a nice big scar. The pain from the A will feel less and less sharp each day, no matter if you are together or not.
hopesndreams Posted March 13, 2010 Posted March 13, 2010 Why are you worried about that? Worry doesn't solve problems, in fact it adds to your exsisting problems. Look up self fulfilling prophecy and negative thoughts. Basically if you think things will be bad, they will be bad because your mind doesn't like to be called a liar. I know how you feel though, this is the 3 months ago me talking right now. You don't want her to break your heart again. You are filled with hope, but you question it, and think it might be false hope. You read a bunch of posts telling you to wake up, she's using you, and it only makes it worse. I understand completely how you feel right now. You'll get over it in time, this is the present me talking. Time does heal all wounds, and leaves a nice big scar. The pain from the A will feel less and less sharp each day, no matter if you are together or not. Does it really Tim? I am no longer with my H and the pain is still here and some days, it's just as strong as when I first found out about his cheating. I can only imagine, yes imagine, that the pain would be much worse if I were still with him. Having to see his lying, smug face, day after day, knowing he was, had or still is having sexual relations with another. Once trust is broken and the cheating spouse doesn't seek forgiveness and have true remorse, and I am not talking guilt, how does one get past it? It's just delaying the inevitable, it will only happen again and you would have to go through it all again. Oneday, it hurts. It hurts like nothing else. Without her trying to "fix" anything, you are just beating your head against a wall, over and over. Remember, for the MC, she wanted to discuss the financials? Please.
Gunny376 Posted March 13, 2010 Posted March 13, 2010 I've been a SERIOUS student of the dating and mating game, relationships, marriage, divorce etc for over twenty years. And if someone were to go back and read my some five thousand plus posts, you would find that I fell into both camps. On one thread I would post "Divorce the hussy!" and on another thread? I would recommend books, IC, MC, and attempted RECON. Usually when I post I try and post the OP and his or her situation at hand. Whether your aim is RECON or going DefCon4 and dropping the 'D" bomb on them, I found that one thing and only one thing works for the BS? DECISIVNESS ~ that is to say as soon as you find out about their leaving, the EA or the PA. Act decisively. Don't sit on the fence, don't waffle. You immediately act, get busy getting busy, getting your @zz out of your @zz and getting your head and @zz wired back together. Moving on and forward as an individual. By being decisive? You immediately take control of the situation, you immediately know that your in complete and absolute control of the situation, your life, and yourself. You let them immediately that the game is over, its "check-mate" and they're out of options and moves. You immediately let them know that a World of Hurt is about to come down on their @zz, that's it not going to be fun, its not going to be pretty and its not going to go down the way they fantasied it would. This immediately jolts them out of their fog and back into the real world and back into real reality. Your not trying to to be mean, ugly, hateful, nor spiteful. Your just letting them know? "You want out? You've got it! But its going to cost and your going to have to pay through both the @zz and nose! Divorce is a ugly and nasty business, and someone has got to pay the cost, and its not going to be me that totes the full note!" Most people once they've been through this crap shoot at least once, know how to play the game of "D" They build up a certain amount of immunity to all the BS that others sometimes play. AS soon as you suspect? You shut down any and all support. Be it mental, emotional, spiritual and sure as hell financial. When they come crying, screaming and shouting? You calmly tell them: "I'm not going to discuss anything with you, until your willing to completely open up any and all lines of communication, come completely clean with me about what is going on, what your feelings are and why your feeling the way you do. Until you put any and everything on the table, the Good, the Bad and the Ugly." This opens up a dialog about what is going wrong in and with the marriage/relationship. And yes you refuse to become intimate with them ~ that is to say you cut them off completely NC mentally, emotionally, sexually, financially all the while working on improving yourself in the same categories, (for yourself not for them) The 180's are for yourself not the WAW/WAH, but in doing so? Your presenting yourself as an attractive alternative. You get them to compare you to the alternatives. You shock them out of the fog. The fairy tale fantasy world of the EA/PA, or once I get my degree I'm going to move to Fifth Ave in NY, get a job that starts off paying a Gazillion dollars a year, ya-da, ya-da.
tnttim Posted March 14, 2010 Posted March 14, 2010 Does it really Tim? Yes it does when you allow it to happen. It's called acceptance. You are out of the denial stage and you move into acceptance. You accept that it happened, you accept a level of responsibility, you accept the change it brought out, you accept the fact it cannot be undone. If you beleive in: god, you accept his plan, karma you accept it as fate, nothing you accept it just happens. The next stage is called moving on with your new life. Some people think they have reached this stage, but have they? BTW, I am including myself in the they.
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