Gunny376 Posted March 11, 2010 Posted March 11, 2010 Oneday - I'm going to be honest. Pardon me if it comes across as blunt. All this he said she said what do I say at lunch detailed stuff is never going to work. It seems you are over analyzing stuff to death and it's stopping you from just relaxing and having fun Why? I don;'t know but perhaps it's because your so damn focused on her and you and recon that it makes things so darn unatural when your with her. You need to have something to talk about ? Then get a life (no thats not a stab thats a divorce busting term GALing). Make her interested in YOU. Start doing somethings you have never ever done before and keep doing it. This will build your confidence and give you something to mention (not brag about) in a light conversation and take your mind off of recon a bit. Start a NEW hobby or interest. Something different. If she see's you actually getting a life outside of her it will draw her into you out of curiosity and it will give you something to talk about and before you know it the dates will become more natural. Also, if she is an active girl take her on a date that's completely different and allows for some activity to talk about while you are on the date. Don't call it a date in your mind. Your building it up. It's more like a hang out with a friend and not a date to see if you can spark something. If thats your mindset it won't work. Too unatural. You've got to reestablish emotional intimacy before the romance side can really have any affect. The only way to establish emotional intimacy is to just be friends for now and see how she opens up. No need to rush things. Keep it Agreed, Cindi Lauper said it all, "Girls Just Want To Have Fun" Do things that are fun and spontaneous.
Author onedayatatyme Posted March 11, 2010 Author Posted March 11, 2010 (Haha, I asked about tickling and you denied it! I'll never get a pedi). Yeah, last time I didn't have that problem. I don't know what was up and it was just the left foot. Maybe next time I'll take a shot of tequila 30 minutes before to depress the nervous system just a little. Man it feels good being able to talk to people, even if they're anonymous internet folks.
Author onedayatatyme Posted March 11, 2010 Author Posted March 11, 2010 I wouldn't concern myself about having done what many would consider effeminate. I do think that your missing the whole lesson of the pedicure? She's looking to draw out the softer, kinder, gentler (not effeminate) easier going, more relaxed, less tensed side and fun side of your personality. I haven't missed this. I don't feel the need to prove that I'm a man all the time with her. I'm not worried at all about doing something "girly" with her. I do appreciate 2sure's advice that it could trap me into "buddy" status because it's something she would do with a girlfriend. I don't want to fall into that so I don't want to make this a habit. I agree with you 100%, that we need to have fun. Who's going to divorce a husband they're having fun with? Even if you don't feel like your "in love" with him. If you have kids, you're financially stable, and you're having fun who's gonna leave that? Only someone who feels the need to be "in love" forever. And I think all of us with a more mature view of what real love is know better. If that's who she turns out to be then there is nothing I can do. But maybe through this process and continued MC, she'll realize what real, sustainable, mature love is. I can only hope. In the meantime I need to buy time by making sure she is having fun. I also appreciate that women like hearing that their guys are attractive. There is a married woman friend of our who's helping coach me through this. She said she would tell W how incredible I look and that W's nuts if she doesn't want to jump me. I'm pretty sure she said it, she's a pretty carefree person. So I have that going. I have also been working out, dressing nice, keeping my hair cut, making sure the 15 pounds I lost from stress over the holidays is staying off. I look pretty decent, which if nothing else is helping my self esteem. I've got other random women noticing and smiling. I'm not bragging... just saying that it really does help to know that even though W isn't giving any affection that 1) it isn't me and, 2) if things go south, I have options. BTW, that married woman friend, she's been getting flirty. That's another story but I do recognize it and recognize that I'm extremely vulnerable. I'll be sure to to keep her at bay. Mental note: don't ever be alone with "married woman friend".
unsureLP Posted March 11, 2010 Posted March 11, 2010 Hmmm, I have a lot more comments, but gotta go get my baby girl and enjoy a sunny day outside with her (can't study with the sun shining like this anyway). Just wanted to say: STAY AWAY FROM THE FLIRTY MARRIED WOMAN FRIEND! (apologies for my shouting) Seriously, did she smell fresh meat or something?
floridapad Posted March 11, 2010 Posted March 11, 2010 (edited) I agree with you 100%, that we need to have fun. Who's going to divorce a husband they're having fun with? Even if you don't feel like your "in love" with him. If you have kids, you're financially stable, and you're having fun who's gonna leave that? Only someone who feels the need to be "in love" forever. And I think all of us with a more mature view of what real love is know better. If that's who she turns out to be then there is nothing I can do. But maybe through this process and continued MC, she'll realize what real, sustainable, mature love is. I can only hope. In the meantime I need to buy time by making sure she is having fun. . Now you're talking. You couldn't be more right on this. Just have fun no heavy talk. You can't have fun if your overanalyzing every word or action between the two of you. As everyone here says live in the now. Live in the the second when your with her. Don't let your mind wander! Tough I know but when you get the hang of it it becomes natural. Edited March 11, 2010 by floridapad
Author onedayatatyme Posted March 11, 2010 Author Posted March 11, 2010 STAY AWAY FROM THE FLIRTY MARRIED WOMAN FRIEND! Yeah, don't worry. I'm way to good to do to W (or to married woman friend's H) what she did to me. I would NEVER do something like that out of a need for revenge, I'm way too mature for that. Still gotta make sure I'm never alone with her though. After all, I am only 33 and I've not gotten any action in months. I have absolutely no desire to ever be the OM or the WH. Not sure I could live with myself if I did. I've always appreciated looking at pretty women. But now I find myself reacting more like I did when I was in high school, with almost physical urges. Totally under control though... for now (never be alone with "married woman friend"). Also I have NEVER been a flirt, EVER. Even b4 marriage I didn't flirt very well. I was so insecure with girls and scared of rejection that I never mastered the art of flirting. Now, for the first time in my life I feel tempted to flirt. Not just with "married woman friend", but with anybody I find attractive. Even if it's just a smile and locking eye-contact for a beat more than a moment. I never even did that before. In fact it was very much a habit to steer way clear of even that minor stuff after I got married. My W was so insecure that I went way out of my way to demonstrate that I stayed far away from other women.
troggleputty Posted March 11, 2010 Posted March 11, 2010 It's either a trap or an invitation to ask her what she's thinking. I'm never sure which. I did ask her what she was thinking after I gave my answer. Maybe I shouldn't have because that treads a line into a dangerous area. In this case it didn't backfire. The only correct answer to "What are you thinking?" is: "You, naked."
troggleputty Posted March 11, 2010 Posted March 11, 2010 ps.: I can't believe you are co-signing the loans for her after she cheated and lied! I can't believe they have the money for pedicures(?). Her boyfriend must have a foot fetish or something.
troggleputty Posted March 11, 2010 Posted March 11, 2010 That's sort of a conversation killer. I don't mean to be critical, but I can't figure out how to use this. Yes, she cheated. So there is no trust. But it doesn't mean things can't be repaired, does it? Certainly not. Maybe they can't be repaired but it isn't because of the affair, it's going to be for a host of other reasons. Most of which were there way before the affair: She thinks I'm controlling I think I'm underappreciated She thinks I don't respect her She doesn't respect me We don't trust each other Our communication sux and has for YEARS Of course the last one is compounded 100x because of the affair. But there are other issues that need to be fixed. The affair cannot be taken back. But if we can both get to a place where we are happy and can stay there, I won't worry about another one. She's blameshifting. By the way, in case you have any doubt, here's what's actually going on: She's giving you false hope so you continue paying for her education. You think you're co-signing but she will end up defaulting leaving you holding the bag. Guaranteed. When she's finished with her degree, she's done with you. She'll move in with whoever her boyfriend is at the time she graduates. Undoubtedly one of her reasons for wanting to take such a heavy courseload is because she has a boyfriend(s) who is affiliated with her school in some way and it gives her more opportunities to see him. The pedicures, and other stuff....I mean seriously, it's almost like you are writing a guide to what NOT to do. Seriously, she thinks YOU'RE controlling? It's completely the other way around my friend. She is leading you around with a ring through your nose, haven't you figured out how badly she's playing you?
alphamale Posted March 12, 2010 Posted March 12, 2010 Well we were at Soup N Salad, so I had soup and salad. Romain with olives and ranch dressing, cheese and broccoli soup, and red beans and rice. that means that you were open to suggestion
JamesM Posted March 12, 2010 Posted March 12, 2010 Seriously, she thinks YOU'RE controlling? It's completely the other way around my friend. She is leading you around with a ring through your nose, haven't you figured out how badly she's playing you? If you read ODAAT's analysis of his marriage, then you can read that even he admits that he was controlling. This was one of the factors that led to the deterioration of the marriage.
Gunny376 Posted March 12, 2010 Posted March 12, 2010 (edited) She's blameshifting. By the way, in case you have any doubt, here's what's actually going on: She's giving you false hope so you continue paying for her education. You think you're co-signing but she will end up defaulting leaving you holding the bag. Guaranteed. When she's finished with her degree, she's done with you. She'll move in with whoever her boyfriend is at the time she graduates. Undoubtedly one of her reasons for wanting to take such a heavy course load is because she has a boyfriend(s) who is affiliated with her school in some way and it gives her more opportunities to see him. The pedicures, and other stuff....I mean seriously, it's almost like you are writing a guide to what NOT to do. Seriously, she thinks YOU'RE controlling? It's completely the other way around my friend. She is leading you around with a ring through your nose, haven't you figured out how badly she's playing you? There's some serious merit to this that needs to be considered. I've a late 50's co-worker, who he and his wife and maternal grandmother co-signed student for DD20's DD got out of HS, spoiled @zz rotten. Went to local state fifth tier university with eye on one day becoming a pediatrician. Transferred to a more expensive state school. Found out that biology, anatomy, pre-med classes were hard! Change to become a respiratory therapist assistant. Graduated with a four year degree. Married local country boy with earning capacity not much more than a illiterate illegal alien. Buy and furnish a $300,000 house, (nothing but the best of course! Large screen hang on the wall plasma TV, swimming pool, etc) All on credit. Just one problem? She owes $160,000 in student loans that Daddy, Mommy, and dear GM all co-signed on. She can't pay it, he can't pay it! Guess who's 58 years old and on the hook for $1500 a month for the next ten freaking years! That's right Daddy! If he doesn't pay it? They're not only going to foreclose on their house? They're going to put Grandma out in the street. And tack on another $40,000 to $50,000 in interest and penalties to boot! And just in case you don't know? The three things you cannot discharge in bankruptcy, (even if you qualify under the new bankruptcy laws) are Child Support Back Taxes and Student Loans! Run Forrest! Run! Be afraid! Very Afraid! The decision you make today? Will affect you forever the rest of your life! For years upon years to come! There's no doubt in my military mind that she's using and abusing you, and that your nothing more than a 'stepping stone' to her. She's playing your know devtion to her and your vows against you. In short? She's using you! I've seen it time and time again. (I live in a university town) Once they get that "self-supporting" independent degree? You're out of gas Mother-Trucker! Edited March 12, 2010 by Gunny376
Gunny376 Posted March 12, 2010 Posted March 12, 2010 Had to re-post! Just think about it? The woman I posted about? Doesn't even care if her own Mother, Father, and GM are out homeless on the street. She doesn't care about anyone other than herself. BTW? Her Daddy spent $25,000 on her wedding? And he's just a blue collar jock! Just so she could have her 'Princess Day"
unsureLP Posted March 12, 2010 Posted March 12, 2010 There's a lot of truth in what Gunny is saying, unfortunately. She could be using you even unconsciously. But she could also really mean that she wants reconciliation. You guys had 7 years together and two little girls (who are still little). That has to account for something; I don't believe people are that manipulative and uncaring. I also have personal experience in this. During my undergrad years I had one semester where I was super strapped. My then boyfriend had asked me to live with him about an hour and a half away from school and I couldn't find a good enough paying job. I had to take out loans, but he ended up needing to co-sign (at his own suggestion, btw). Granted, it wasn't that much - $2500 total, and it was only for one semester. Everyone told him not to do it and even I was pretty scared of agreeing to it, but he insisted it would be fine. And you know what? We didn't even stay together for the duration of it, but I PAID the whole thing back. Not a late payment even. I think you have to consider her history and maturity level when making the decision to co-sign loans. Gunny's co-worker's daughter through her actions showed that she didn't have the maturity and doesn't have the type of self-discipline and responsibility to be a safe bet. But I know some people can do it. YOU know your wife best, and you would be the best to tell what you think might happen if you co-sign. It is a huge risk (I still can't believe my ex did it for me) though, and it deserves a lot of thought and discussion. I know she's been reluctant to discuss school with you saying you are controlling her. I hope she sees how big of a deal it is and is prepared to come up with a contingency plan. Like i said in an earlier post, she needs to come up with a "how can I get myself through college if he's not here at all" plan. How was sports day?
JamesM Posted March 12, 2010 Posted March 12, 2010 Did I miss something? Does she have alot of reasons to use you? Is she financially in trouble by herself? Can she support herself? I will have to look back at the threads. Even still, if it is about finances, then any guy will do. Her AP could fill that role and if the affair was about love, then she would be happier. I am still inclined to believe that this is about much more than simply her wanting money and financial security. I think she is seeking to understand if her marriage was actually the best thing that happened to her. if the OP shows himself to be who she thought he once was, then she will realize that the grass was not greener.
Author onedayatatyme Posted March 12, 2010 Author Posted March 12, 2010 Everything Troggleputty, Gunny and Unsure are saying is already in the back of my mind. It's only in the back because I'm forcing it there. Sometimes, like today, after troggle so eloquently boiled it down to its basic elements, it's right in the front of my mind. I don't think I'm co-signing any more loans. I've already started this conversation with her. Of course she freaked out and said we should talk about it in MC. So I'm ready for that. She did offer to sign something saying she would accept full responsibility for the student loan balances in the event of a D. She suggested that without hesitation. In the meantime, I'm speaking with an attorney this morning and the student loan issue will be question #2. I'll ask him if a binding agreement as she suggested is feasible. I think I really shook her the other day when I told her that she was pushing me away. She has raised her effort level a few notches. Sports day was fine. She has a big group project due today so she was on her laptop all through our daughter's soccer practice. Then she had to go meet with the group to put everthing together during my softball game. No big deal. And just for all the doubters, I am keeping my eyes open. When I call, she answers the phone or calls back within minutes. I spoke to her right after my game and I could hear all the noise of the very busy computer lab in the background and her side of her conversation with her group partners. All of troggleputty's warnings are very much in my mind dan the risks are very clear. Troggle, you haven't said anything that hasn't run through my mind 100 times already. I find though that I have to either worrry about that stuff and act on those fears (move rapidly toward D) or try to reconcile in which case worrying is counterproductive. I need to just put it aside. But just 'cause it's on the side, doesn't mean my head is in the sand. Meeting with attorney in 30 minutes. She does know that I'm going to an attorney. I told her that I'm not planning on filing anything but that I do feel like I need to know what to expect if she bails and what my options are. I don't think she was too thrilled, but she didn't go ballistic.
tnttim Posted March 12, 2010 Posted March 12, 2010 I was wary that W was leading me along when the recon first started too. It's a natural feeling since the wall you built around your heart is still solid. Oneday just has to do what he feels is the right thing to do, he has to live with the outcome. The only thing I see bad about the date was, where were your ideas, what did you bring to the table? My eyes have been opened up to the fact that women love men that are in control, and mysterious. They easily tire to the same old routines, dates, places, and people. My suggestion is to mix it up once in a while and keep your W on her toes. The little things add up and soon overshadow the big things. The fact that you have a half way interested women in your life is actually a godsend. If you don't think your W is aware of this, then you need to pay more attention to her comments about this women. The other thing women love is a man that's in demand by other women. You're like an antique, the more people that want you, the more your value rises. You see, in your W's mind being with means she is better than all the women that want to be with you. In her eyes that justifies her beauty, it makes her prettier than those other girls. To be brutally honest, you lost that value some time in the relationship, and is a component of her cheating (sorry). It's happened to everyone here, but some never see that. They're too busy blaming the other person. I think your date went smashingly well. You have your W thinking, and that's the best thing to do right now. Just take it slow, have fun, be adventurous, and keep your cool. I made the mistake of having sex way too early in my recon, wish I could change that. After that we waited 2 weeks and let me tell you, the waiting made it that much better for the both of us, it felt natural and exciting. So when I say take it slow, please TAKE IT SLOW.
Author onedayatatyme Posted March 12, 2010 Author Posted March 12, 2010 Oh, I should also point out... because it just popped back into my head. Staying with me is actually a catch 22 for her regardign school. If I refuse to co-sign the loans (behavior she will absolutely consider controlling), then her best option to finish school will be to file for D ASAP. Here's why: She is going to a very small, private liberal arts college. They base their financial aid very much on need. Something like 60% of the students are getting grants. She doesn't qualify for anything because of my income. If I effectively pull her out of school by refusing to take out another loan, her best option will be to leave me. That school is so friendly and she is so close to graduation that they will absolutely bend over backward to make sure she graduates if she suddenly becomes a single mother of two. They may give her a full ride for her last semester and a half. She knows this, we've already talked about it. So I'm not sure in her mind that she thinks she needs me to finish school. She'll be delayed, no doubt, but she probably realizes she'll be able to finish without me.
unsureLP Posted March 12, 2010 Posted March 12, 2010 She did offer to sign something saying she would accept full responsibility for the student loan balances in the event of a D. She suggested that without hesitation. In the meantime, I'm speaking with an attorney this morning and the student loan issue will be question #2. I'll ask him if a binding agreement as she suggested is feasible. I think that's a good sign. Maybe I'm too naive? You should consider my opinions knowing that I always believe in people. But I think her offering that is a good sign, and your questions to the attorney are even better. You want to be prepared. She does know that I'm going to an attorney. I told her that I'm not planning on filing anything but that I do feel like I need to know what to expect if she bails and what my options are. I don't think she was too thrilled, but she didn't go ballistic. Sounds like you guys are making progress in a way. If she didn't go ballistic, doesn't that mean that maybe she's beginning to take responsibility for her actions and their consequences? She knows she has no right to go ballistic since she kicked this whole ordeal into gear. I want to think you guys have a good chance, a real chance at reconciliation. It's good you are prepared and have these things in the back of your mind, but I like James' advice. You know your situation best, and if you think reconciliation is possible and worth it, then you gotta give your 100%. ps.: I'm following your situation as a guide, haha. I feel like if you guys can get past what you're going through, then maybe DH and I have a chance too.
Steadfast Posted March 12, 2010 Posted March 12, 2010 There's a lot of truth in what Gunny is saying, unfortunately. She could be using you even unconsciously. But she could also really mean that she wants reconciliation. You guys had 7 years together and two little girls (who are still little). That has to account for something; I don't believe people are that manipulative and uncaring. I'm not saying that's the case here but yes, they are. Subconsciously or not. It's so tough isn't it? During my marriage breakup my wife sent so many mixed signals I thought she'd taken a course in military spy code. I surfed the internet and read everything I could get my hands on to try to understand, but in the end it all boils down to this; if a person loves you they won't cheat and they won't waffle. Loves you means loves you, period. What does halfway really mean? Halfway is self-serving and uncaring, manipulative. Halfway is undecided and in my book undecided is a decision all in itself. Who wants to be the best of several bad choices? In the end, unless she says "I'm sorry. I've damaged our relationship with my actions and betrayed you, but I'm willing to do whatever it takes to save our marriage and regain your trust" then it's probably smoke and mirrors. What we 'want' to believe hardly ever figures in.
unsureLP Posted March 12, 2010 Posted March 12, 2010 She knows this, we've already talked about it. So I'm not sure in her mind that she thinks she needs me to finish school. She'll be delayed, no doubt, but she probably realizes she'll be able to finish without me. That's really good in my opinion! That means the money/loan thing is not the reason she's making the effort. That to me says she may not be using you at all for the money, since she doesn't need you to finish school.
Author onedayatatyme Posted March 12, 2010 Author Posted March 12, 2010 Tnttim, I've tried to PM you but I don't think it's going through. Can you try to send one to me? We are going to the rodeo on Sunday. It is a family outing but still very different, we've never gone together before. My idea. It will be interesting. She's not the sawdust on your boots type of girl.
Author onedayatatyme Posted March 12, 2010 Author Posted March 12, 2010 That's really good in my opinion! That means the money/loan thing is not the reason she's making the effort. That to me says she may not be using you at all for the money, since she doesn't need you to finish school. I'd love to think that but I'm not sure I'd go that far. I still worry that she is using me. She, after all, has no real work experience and pretty low earning potential. After she gets her degree, she'll enter the workforce at entry level. I'll make 3x more than she does at least for the next 3 or 4 years probably. So it still could be an issue. If I was her, I would be thinking "oh s*** what am I going to do if we get a D".
tnttim Posted March 12, 2010 Posted March 12, 2010 Oneday let me be the first to tell you, recons are not very liked here. If you are looking for support on the subject here, good luck, it's very scarce. Most people will just send you negativity and tell you to wake up. Don't listen to the haters, they are just jealous that you have accomplished what they couldn't. The easiest way to spot one is read their post log, if they blame the other person for the break up then they are a hater.
Author onedayatatyme Posted March 12, 2010 Author Posted March 12, 2010 ps.: I'm following your situation as a guide, haha. I feel like if you guys can get past what you're going through, then maybe DH and I have a chance too. Oh, God, now the pressure really is on Please don't use me as an example. I'm a blind man trying to find my way through unfamiliar territory.
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