Is there hope? I doubt it...

[onedayatatyme]

My wife and I are working on reconciliation but it's tough. Our communication has been broken for a while and now, after her affair, it's as bad as ever.

 

She has broken off the affair (I'm almost certain) but she makes no bones about not being in-love with me and only giving this marriage a shot for the kids. We are able to be civil with each other. But at this point, I wouldn't even say we're friends. We have a lack of respect and trust for each other and I don't see how anything can be repaired until we re-establish trust and respect.

 

As much as we eye each other with suspicion right now, I'm not surprised that she says she's not in love with me. Hell, I'm not feeling too in love with her either although I know those feelings are still there buried in me.

 

I am calmly insisting that she respect me by not tolerating her yelling or cursing at me. This doesn't happen all the time but it happens often when we disagree about something. I'm done with that crap.

 

She continues to bring up divorce as a possibility even though a month ago, we expressed a commitment to each other that we would fix this marriage no matter what it takes. That commitment from her lasted about 48 hours. So this morning I told her that I was going to talk to my attorney to protect myself. I made it clear that I wasn't going to file for D but that since she keeps bringing it up, I need to know what my options are. She said "do what you gotta do".

 

She called me 30 minutes later and invited me to lunch. That was a reaction to me expressing my observation that she was completely cutting me out of her life and that her actions spoke loud and clear that I wasn't a welcome part of her life anymore. It wasn't a complaint. I told her that if that's the message she was trying to send, I was getting it loud and clear. She said that's not the message she's trying to send, she does think we're together alot but that when we are she's just not comfortable. She pretty much blames that all on me. Whatever, two months ago she was screwing somebody else, I'm a little sulky... not sure what to talk about... not my easygoing self. So we're in this kind of cycle of negativity. How do I break that? Is there hope? How do I rebuild the mutual trust and respect? Come on LS'ers, I need advice.

[JamesM]

Since you started this thread and mentioned an affair, can you explain what the affair was? How long and with who?

 

Affairs can be an expression of passive anger or they can be an expression of love for someone else. It makes a difference in how the marriage may possibly be fixed.

[hopesndreams]

My wife and I are working on reconciliation but it's tough.

 

From what I have read, it appears to be only you working on the recon. So far, the only thing she has been doing is appeasing you with lunch invites and pedicures. She is still playing the blame game and has not come into the understanding of why she did what she did. That may never happen so don't hold your breath waiting for it. Some people will be in denial their whole lives, it's just easier for them that way. Those that cheat are self-satisfying and don't feel the pain, understand the pain of those they hurt. They lack empathy.

 

File for D. This could be the only thing that will give her the wake-up call she needs

Edited March 11, 2010 by hopesndreams

[Steadfast]

 

She continues to bring up divorce as a possibility even though a month ago, we expressed a commitment to each other that we would fix this marriage no matter what it takes. That commitment from her lasted about 48 hours. So this morning I told her that I was going to talk to my attorney to protect myself. I made it clear that I wasn't going to file for D but that since she keeps bringing it up, I need to know what my options are. She said "do what you gotta do".

 

 

You two are engaged in a face off. She's probably dealing with a tremendous amount of guilt, combined with the feelings she had leading to the affair. You are hurt and somehow, subconsciously want her to say or do something that will bring you two back to level ground. You want remorse and control, she wants understanding and some unspoken event to take place that will give her direction. It is possible you both want the same things, but when one does not get the desired response for the other frustration sets in and the chasm between you two gets wider.

 

When a woman says 'do what you gotta do' that's a challenge-filled heartache in the making. She might not know what she wants, but if the marriage ends she'd rather have the record show that you ended it.

 

 

She called me 30 minutes later and invited me to lunch. That was a reaction to me expressing my observation that she was completely cutting me out of her life and that her actions spoke loud and clear that I wasn't a welcome part of her life anymore. It wasn't a complaint. I told her that if that's the message she was trying to send, I was getting it loud and clear. She said that's not the message she's trying to send, she does think we're together alot but that when we are she's just not comfortable. She pretty much blames that all on me. Whatever, two months ago she was screwing somebody else, I'm a little sulky... not sure what to talk about... not my easygoing self. So we're in this kind of cycle of negativity. How do I break that? Is there hope? How do I rebuild the mutual trust and respect? Come on LS'ers, I need advice.

 

 

You are waiting for a apology that might never come. At some point in your marraige -perhaps even after the affair- your relationship became pride verses pride. You're shocked and upset at what she's done, she's scared of your reaction and dealing with the consequences of her actions. She is putting on a brave front and keeping you out. Self-preservation.

 

Why don't you just tell her what you've told us? But before you do, take some time and prepare yourself mentally. Try to do away with feelings, words and actions that suggest you'd like to control the marriage -or the reconciliation, and focus on telling it the way it is. That your upset, hurt, angry and sick of the stand off and commitment backsliding. Admit your faults and explain that your torn between protecting yourself and saving the marriage. Tell her no one wants to be alone in a marriage. Finally, tell her -without actually saying "it"- that deep inside your feelings for her are still there. Ask her what she wants; really wants. If she doesn't know, ask her sincerely what you can do to help her find out. Then, do it. But, only if you really want the marriage to work. If you can't trust her or she drags her feet for an extended time...well...you know what to do about it.

 

One more suggestion; keep it as brief as possible. She's probably in no mood for a sermon and you're probably not up for giving one. Short and sweet.

 

Keep us posted-

[onedayatatyme]

Since you started this thread and mentioned an affair, can you explain what the affair was? How long and with who?

 

Affairs can be an expression of passive anger or they can be an expression of love for someone else. It makes a difference in how the marriage may possibly be fixed.

 

I don't think it was out of love. I think she went looking for something. What she says is that she had already decided she wanted out of the marriage. I think it was a passive anger thing. I hear from her sister, who heard from their cousin, that my W was almost bragging about the A. "See this is what happens...", etc. She is passive aggresive. Lot's of crap builds up until she explodes. When she explodes, she still have coherently express what the problems are (or I can't grasp it). Lot's of communication problems. She feels I'm controlling, demeaning, insulting, etc. Feels like I have never respected her or really loved her. She is insecure.

 

The affair lasted about a month. Could have gone on longer but I figured it out and exposed it, etc. She did tell me she was "starting to have feelings for him" when I first confronted her. Now she says she doesn't think about him and there is nothing there.

[onedayatatyme]

File for D. This could be the only thing that will give her the wake-up call she needs

 

Maybe, maybe not. I think Steadfast is right, this is a face-off. And I do think that if the marriage ends in D, she does want the record to show that I ended it. Her family is furious with her... more so because of her lack of effort than for the A. If I file for D, she will be able to say "see, he wanted out of the marriage too". I think if I wait her out and let things cool off (they are cooling off, we are less angry with each other day by day) and keep going to MC, she'll have to face the issues sooner or later. She won't file for D without coming to grips with the fact that some in her family WILL disown her or at least very very mad at her for a long time. She'll have to do serious soul searching before she files for D.

 

I'm not saying any of that gives me hope, but it does indicate that there is time for her to cool off and figure out what she really wants.

 

BTW, hopesndreams, what's with the sheepdog avatars?

[unsureLP]

How did it go yesterday afternoon? Any improvements from lunch? I was thinking about you guys and sending some good juju your way.

 

As for the situation as a whole, I agree with you that *sometimes* A are a way of letting out anger about something else; it's a horrible and backwards way of protesting against something that they don't like. Is it hurtful and stupid? Yes. But I'm with you that I would try to work things out and rebuild trust. It's very strong of you to give her time until she works through issues and comes to the table with honesty and ready to make things work. She really needs to learn to communicate, but I think the road will be long for both of you.

 

If you two are in a face-off of sorts, hopefully time will make it easier for both of you to put the weapons down and start negotiating.

[onedayatatyme]

Yesterday afternoon went much better. I posted details in my other thread "Having lunch with her in an hour...".

 

Today she brought me Starbucks at work. Takes little effort on her part and it's becoming a habit. But still at least it says "I don't hate your guts." If I want to be really cynical I guess it only at least says "I don't want you to know that I hate your guts." But then the upshot of either of those two intentions is that she cares what I think. That's at least good right?

 

I'm sure many of you have heard of the five love languages. I haven't read the book but we did go to a seminar with Gary Chapman so I have the basics down. This morning figured out that maybe there should be a 6th love language. Mine might be loyalty. Obviously I'm expressing loyalty beyond anything that is rational right now. And I always felt loved by her before no matter how crazy she was being or how much we fought because I perceived incredible loyalty from her. I trusted her, trusted she would always be there for me at the end of the day. Now that all of that has changed (and for me it seemed so out of the blue), that is what is so disorienting.

[onedayatatyme]

"If I file for D, she will be able to say "see, he wanted out of the marriage too""

 

 

this is the lamest excuse i have ever heard for not filing the D...she cheated on you and you filed it ,do you really think A is over...go do some digging...why do you want to stay with a cheater anyways....imo, you are wasting your time, energy....

 

I think you misunderstand... I'm not filing for D because I haven't given up on the marriage. I'm not hesitating because I care what anybody else thinks, I'm hesitating because I want to see if things can be fixed.

 

I think Steadfast is right, we're in a face-off. Not a face-off to see who will file for D... I think we're both on edge, she's confused about what she wants, etc. It's a face-off in the true hollywood western sense. We have our guns drawn and aimed at each other just as much in self-defense as in aggression. Neither of us is sure of the other's intent (will she pull the trigger... does she WANT to pull the trigger... maybe she's just got her gun drawn because I've got my gun drawn).

 

Cheating does not automatically mean death to the marriage. Yes, I do think the A is over. I am doing digging, haven't found anything more yet. Of course, as our MC points out, if she's going to cheat, she's going to find a way. There is always opportunity.

 

But I am checking up on her, snooping through her phone, asking her to account for her time, going through her computer and her car. She doesn't "smell" guilty like she did before. I'm not saying that's a sure thing. This is my first rodeo and she might have just gotten much better at hiding it.

 

But if I'm constantly suspicious and jumping at shadows, I might as well give up now. On the other hand, if she's cheating, I will find out eventually.

 

Let me say this one thing... my wife is impulsive and childish when it comes to not thinking through the consequences of her actions. I think she was truly surprised when I blew the doors open and exposed the affair to her family and friends. She was absolutely humiliated and didn't see it coming. Her entire family is watching her like a hawk and I think she feels incredible shame. I think it completely deflated the fantasy and excitement on which A's thrive.

Edited March 11, 2010 by onedayatatyme

[JamesM]

Today she brought me Starbucks at work. Takes little effort on her part and it's becoming a habit. But still at least it says "I don't hate your guts."

 

It says....

 

I care enough about you to take time to give you a little gift.

 

I care enough about you to use this as an excuse to see you again.

 

And yes, it does take effort on her part. It is always easier not to do something than to do it.

 

 

And remember....if she enjoys being around you, then she sees something she likes. You make her laugh and be happy, then you become special to her. If being around you makes her sad and angry, then she will not want to be around her.

 

Keep up the good work.

 

 

do you really think A is over...go do some digging...why do you want to stay with a cheater anyways....imo, you are wasting your time, energy....

 

 

First off, I think that the affair was a cry for help. And as I asked before, an affair that is a one time deal and as a result of anger towards the spouse, is much different than an affair that is the result of love for someone else. If there was love for the AP, then I wonder why she would want to be around her husband who is not who she allegedly loves. I think she loves the OP and is learning from these interactions that her affair was not only a mistake but she realizes that she had it pretty good despite the issues.

 

Second, once a cheater does not mean always a cheater. I can give a number of examples IRL of people who have reconciled and have happier marriages because of it.

 

Third, all rewards carry risk. Leaving this marriage and never trying may be the easiest, but it will only leave unresolved issues and regrets. "Wasting energy" (which I do not believe this is) can bring the reward of a marriage that is happier and better than ever. It can also bring the possibility of more heartbreak, but even then IMO it will leave the OP with the knowledge that he tried.

 

Keep up the good work, and as your handle is..."take it one day at a time." Her responses are all good signs IMO.

[onedayatatyme]

i definitely believe in once a cheater is always a cheater...in this forum , i have not seen a single(i mean single) case where the cheater actually moved on from AP(especially women)....

 

I just started a thread over in "infidelity" to find out.

[JamesM]

"

 

if the person happier him/herself....he/she will be happier in any case m or not....R does not add the person's happiness ....

 

Actually, that is not true. I am a much happier person being married to my wife than if I were single. I have no doubt. Having someone that I can share life with definitely makes me a happier person.

 

A good relationship does add to a person's happiness. Ask anyone even here on LS...does your marriage contribute to you being a happier person, or would you be just as happy by yourself? And I think most if not all would say that "my marriage does contribute to my happiness, and it does make me a happier person."

 

i definitely believe in once a cheater is always a cheater...in this forum , i have not seen a single(i mean single) case where the cheater actually moved on from AP(especially women)....

 

And I think if you read the OM/OW forum, then you will find many of those who were the OM or OW whose AP left them to go back to their marriage. Does that mean they never cheated again? We don't know, but it does show that the wife or husband was more important and it does show that they moved back to their spouse.

 

I personally know of a few cases and one in particular has lasted and thrived for the past five years. However, you could say since the man is not dead that the jury is still out on whether he is still a cheater.

 

No question that ODAAT is taking a risk. However, for every endeavor that succeeds, there is a great reward.

[JamesM]

...it's about they are completely moved on from affair or not(mostly women)...they seem to write here time and again how they miss their OM , sex and loads of crap....their Hs do not even know about it

 

I suspect that the ones who have moved on will not spend their time posting here.

[JamesM]

show me a female cheater who is moved on or stopped posting here...as far as i know none

 

Okaaayyy. If the former cheater has quit posting here, then I cannot show you. And I honestly do not keep track of every poster on LS.

[lkjh]

She is a bully and you let her do it. She cheated on you and treats you like crap and you take it. You agreed to work on the marriage when you should have tossed her out. Women don't respect passive men, stand up for yourself. If she threaten divorce let her go.

 

Once you man up she will come running back but I cant see any reason to take her back

 

 

In other words find some self-respect and dont take her crap

[Gunny376]

Our communication has been broken for a while and now, after her affair, it's as bad as ever.

 

Your lines of communication were broken long before the affair. In fact its was this break in communicating that is one to the leading contributing factors to the affair.

 

It was the fear of discussing the 900 pound gorilla sitting in the room, that lead to the breakdown of communication, that lead to the deterioration of the relationship, that lead to the mistrust, that lead controlling behavior, the jealousy, that lead to the affair.

 

Make talk and not love. Talking in a relationship, even if it about things that you don't want to speak up ~ let alone talk about is more important to the longevity of a relationship than is sex. For without communication and talking? There's just simply isn't in the long run going to be any sex ~ at least not with you!

 

Many married men go to prostitutes, not to have sex? But just to have someone to listen to them.

 

Many married women go to other men, many even leave their husbands and children for them. Many of the other men have less social-economic status than the husbands they're leaving them for?

 

WTF? What do they have that these successful husbands don't have. Why do so many women "trade-down" when they leave their husbands?

 

They listen, they really listen. They have better communication skills.

 

In a typical day? Your average woman? Uses between 4 to 6,000 words. Your average man? Between 2 to 4,000 words.

 

Lipstick is a good example. To men? Red is red.

 

To women? There's plum red, cherry red, apple red, fire engine red, etc.

 

God gave us two ears and one mouth. That's because we're suppose to listen twice as much as we speak.

 

But what's important when we do speak? We learn how to choose our words carefully and our fights even more carefully. What is all the more is that we all need to learn how to argue and fight.

 

There are things that you can do, tactics if you will, (and no they're not manipulative) such as agreeing, re-framing, 'sounding' unifying that can be used if you but to learn them.

 

Some of what I know? I learned while selling cars for six months. In one training session the GM used over coming his wife's objections to having sex because she had a headache. It was pure psychology and sales techniques.

 

You want to save your marriage? Improve your communication skills.

 

Read:

 

"You Just Don't Understand!"

 

"GenderSpeak"

 

"How To Win Back The One You Love!"

[hopesndreams]

Maybe, maybe not. I think Steadfast is right, this is a face-off. And I do think that if the marriage ends in D, she does want the record to show that I ended it. Her family is furious with her... more so because of her lack of effort than for the A. If I file for D, she will be able to say "see, he wanted out of the marriage too". I think if I wait her out and let things cool off (they are cooling off, we are less angry with each other day by day) and keep going to MC, she'll have to face the issues sooner or later. She won't file for D without coming to grips with the fact that some in her family WILL disown her or at least very very mad at her for a long time. She'll have to do serious soul searching before she files for D.

 

I'm not saying any of that gives me hope, but it does indicate that there is time for her to cool off and figure out what she really wants.

 

BTW, hopesndreams, what's with the sheepdog avatars?

 

My dad was a huge support to me after Dday. On one of his visits he gave me a stuffed Old English Sheepdog, to help make me feel better.