Did any attempt MC before the affair?

[PhoenixRise]

Yes, I agree it takes huge committment on both parts to make it work again, certainly after an affair.

 

I often wonder why we do not put that effort in pre-affair. Is it that we love each other so much we begin to lose respect for each other? That our assumptions of married life, that love will conquer all, allows us to grow complacent? Or to have unrealistic expectations in assuming our partner will not only read our minds but fulfill all our needs?

 

I believe most long term commtted relationships do have the tendency to go on automatic pilot unless BOTH parties make a conscious effort to not allow that to happen.

 

It seems very rare.

 

 

I think the bolded part is huge. I think for some people, seeking help is seen as an admission that the love is not strong enough to conquer all. AND nobody ever tells you that what came so easy while you were dating is actually going to take work after you have been married for several years.

 

My H would not go to IC or MC prior to the affair... He could not admit that he needed help to figure himself out.

[jennie-jennie]

I hope he does soon. Do you go? And I am not meaning to be presumptuous here, in that you need to. I am just thinking that it often helps to know and love oneself better before extending it to a committed relationship of any kind.

 

I have thought about it, Spark, but my experiences of IC were not good. It was during the same time I was in Al-Anon and the IC gave me nothing while my eight years in Al-Anon was great therapy for me.

 

I do suffer somewhat still from a neurosis that hit me bad in my twenties. It is generally considered that cognitive behavioral therapy is good for this type of neurosis, but that kind of therapy is really expensive in my country and I simply can not afford it. I am the sole provider for my two children.

[Snowflower]

Yes, I agree it takes huge committment on both parts to make it work again, certainly after an affair.

 

I often wonder why we do not put that effort in pre-affair. Is it that we love each other so much we begin to lose respect for each other? That our assumptions of married life, that love will conquer all, allows us to grow complacent? Or to have unrealistic expectations in assuming our partner will not only read our minds but fulfill all our needs?

 

I believe most long term commtted relationships do have the tendency to go on automatic pilot unless BOTH parties make a conscious effort to not allow that to happen.

 

It seems very rare.

 

Yes, it is sad how little effort many people put into nurturing their marriages.

 

I think it is complacency, taking each other for granted, taking the marital relationship for granted, inaccurate assumptions about each other, laziness, putting kids, jobs, extended family always ahead of the marriage, the list goes on and on.

 

My H and I were both guilty of all these deficiencies in our pre-affair marriage. We both seriously neglected our relationship and didn't put the effort into helping it grow. I am still angry at myself for being SO STUPID about our relationship at that time. I should have known better.

 

By the time my H had his affair, our marriage pretty much sucked, TBH. No, we didn't fight all the time and yes, we still talked and spent time together...but not in the ways that really mattered. Duh, we were so stupid.

[bentnotbroken]

I asked that we attend counseling when I told him I wasn't satisfied sexually. His response was that it was my problem not his because he got his, I should learn how to get mine. As I grew more resentful and angry, I again suggested we go, again he refused. So I went on my own. I felt like I was just starting to understand I had some deeper issues(though she wasn't a good counselor at all) when he started to complain about me wasting his money and my time. Time I needed to be doing things around the house so he wouldn't have to do them.

 

When that argument didn't work, he pulled out the trump card, I wasn't spending enough time with the kids (remember I was a SAHM) and he knew that he could guilt me with the kids. He told me what a bad parent I was because it became harder and harder to function normally. I learned how to have the functional me and the one that fell apart every night when the kids were in bed. We had talked about there being problems, but they were all my problems, yet there was no support in fixing what were supposed to be my problems.

 

I now know it was about the threat of him losing control if I figured out who I really was.

[carhill]

I didn't and see it as a mixed bag, though predominently tilted in favor of prior MC. If having it prior, I likely would not have had an EA, and likely would still have divorced, but the slightly mitigative factor would be I'd never have truly known that the EA partner was clearly unhealthy for me (and perhaps I for her) because I never would have explored the potential. In my case, since it was someone I had known and loved in the past, there would've always remained a doubt in my mind, even with MC. Now, that doubt is resolved. Hence the mixed bag. I'd definitely have PMC prior to ever getting married again.

[Spark1111]

My H and his then-W had some brief MC as his pre-condition for taking her back after a previous separation (before I met him, in case you're wondering - it wasn't A-related at all) but she walked out when the MC suggested that her bullying and abuse was detrimental to the M. He tried to get her to return to MC once the A started, but she saw no need... He also tried to get her to attend family counselling with him and the kids, once the split was looming. Again, she saw no need. He and the kids went, and he had been going to IC (since the A became "serious"). I think she may have gotten some IC since the split.

 

It always amazes me that sometimes, not always, the partner who brings the most baggage to the relationship is often times the one with the MOST resistance to going to IC or MC or any self-helping group or literature. Wonder why that is? What are they so afraid of finding out?

 

I think it falls along the lines that few have the courage to introspect their own contributions to the disaster, almost like a defense mechanism, as in, if there is a problem here, who, other than me, is to blame, as opposed to,

if it's not working for you, or us, how can I/we fix it?

 

Some people have to believe they are right no matter what, to the maniacal destruction of all their relationships.

[Spark1111]

I have thought about it, Spark, but my experiences of IC were not good. It was during the same time I was in Al-Anon and the IC gave me nothing while my eight years in Al-Anon was great therapy for me.

 

I do suffer somewhat still from a neurosis that hit me bad in my twenties. It is generally considered that cognitive behavioral therapy is good for this type of neurosis, but that kind of therapy is really expensive in my country and I simply can not afford it. I am the sole provider for my two children.

 

I now work in education, and like any field out there, there is mediocre, good, and that rarity, a wonderkind.

 

What I notice about the wonderkind, is they never stop learning, growing, and striving to be even better than they already are, and I admire that.

 

I know ICs are like that also, and if you do not gel, or if you do not see progress in your thoughts, feelings, etc, well it is time to move on or find another.

 

I think relationships are also like this; if you cannot, after trying every resource in your hands, make it the best it could be, again you should move on.

 

But relationships TAKE TWO people striving to be the best it could be, and that's the rub of it; one partner wants more and the other is fine with the way it is...well then someone is unhappy.

 

Al-Anon is a wonderful support group to learn how to live with and love an alcoholic. But I do not believe it can replace IC with someone trusted.

 

I would still want to work on me, outside a relationship with an alcoholic.

[Spark1111]

I think the bolded part is huge. I think for some people, seeking help is seen as an admission that the love is not strong enough to conquer all. AND nobody ever tells you that what came so easy while you were dating is actually going to take work after you have been married for several years.

.

 

I believe that is the delusion that sets many people up for failure in a long-term committed relationship, and I also believe it is the reason affairs are not only considered a panacea for whatever ails 'ya, they can last for years! Like prolonged dating, you know?

 

You have successfully recreated a forbidden dating scenario, hence those amazing heady feelings exist for a very long time.

 

My husband's affair lasted 1.5 years, but if he were to actually add up the time spent with his OW? Maybe, 3 to 4 months in days, actual days spending time together if all the stolen moments were put in an uninteruppted continuum.

 

And in the first 3 to 4 months, what is NOT wonderful?

 

Day in, day out....the long haul...the rare few that SUSTAIN intimacy, passion and friendship....that is WHO I WANT TO LEARN FROM.

 

Doesn't everyone? Whether you are a BS, WS, OW/OM, isn't that everyone's goal?

[Spark1111]

I didn't and see it as a mixed bag, though predominently tilted in favor of prior MC. If having it prior, I likely would not have had an EA, and likely would still have divorced, but the slightly mitigative factor would be I'd never have truly known that the EA partner was clearly unhealthy for me (and perhaps I for her) because I never would have explored the potential. In my case, since it was someone I had known and loved in the past, there would've always remained a doubt in my mind, even with MC. Now, that doubt is resolved. Hence the mixed bag. I'd definitely have PMC prior to ever getting married again.

 

Carhill, this is honest. Even with IC and MC, we may OR MAY NOT, make poor choices. But we would have an independent and objective third party to examine those choices with. And that might be just enough to spare us from some future pain.

 

It is less about the choices we make, and more about WHY we do, that is the empowering part of good therapy.

[Spark1111]

I asked that we attend counseling when I told him I wasn't satisfied sexually. His response was that it was my problem not his because he got his, I should learn how to get mine. As I grew more resentful and angry, I again suggested we go, again he refused. So I went on my own. I felt like I was just starting to understand I had some deeper issues(though she wasn't a good counselor at all) when he started to complain about me wasting his money and my time. Time I needed to be doing things around the house so he wouldn't have to do them.

 

When that argument didn't work, he pulled out the trump card, I wasn't spending enough time with the kids (remember I was a SAHM) and he knew that he could guilt me with the kids. He told me what a bad parent I was because it became harder and harder to function normally. I learned how to have the functional me and the one that fell apart every night when the kids were in bed. We had talked about there being problems, but they were all my problems, yet there was no support in fixing what were supposed to be my problems.

 

I now know it was about the threat of him losing control if I figured out who I really was.

 

Bent, I am so happy you are no longer with this controlling narcissist, and he can now make believe he is a great lover with a woman who pretends she is satisfied.

 

Lucky you!:)

[OWoman]

 

I think now there are four types of relationship camps:

 

1. I am single and having the time of my life but I do grow lonely and would like to meet that special one.

 

2. I was unsuccesfully married and am now single having the time of my life but I grow lonely and would again like to find "the one" -my soulmate.

 

3. I am unsuccessfully married in that it's just okay, but we are plodding along and I find myself snickering at ball and chain jokes, or not enough sex jokes. Husband and wife bashing goes on here often.

 

4. I am gloriously married, having the friendship, intimacy and passion few believe is possible in any long-term relationship.

 

Spark, while I'm now in Camp 4, none of the other camps accurately reflected where I was previously. I'd add:

 

5. I am gloriously single, enjoying life to the full and drawing on my friends, family and part-time lovers as and when the mood takes me, having the friendship, intimacy and passion few believe is possible OUTSIDE OF a long-term relationship.

 

[OWoman]

It always amazes me that sometimes, not always, the partner who brings the most baggage to the relationship is often times the one with the MOST resistance to going to IC or MC or any self-helping group or literature. Wonder why that is? What are they so afraid of finding out?

 

I think it falls along the lines that few have the courage to introspect their own contributions to the disaster, almost like a defense mechanism, as in, if there is a problem here, who, other than me, is to blame, as opposed to,

if it's not working for you, or us, how can I/we fix it?

 

Some people have to believe they are right no matter what, to the maniacal destruction of all their relationships.

 

I think there's often (though, not always) also a reduced sense of "self-awareness" in those people - they can't monitor their behaviour or its impact, so can't relate to any of this "counselling stuff". It's a bit like a very low-level form of a condition on the autism spectrum, or some kind of narcissism lite - they really are just too bounded within their own confines to be able to view themselves / the behaviour from outside, as someone else might, or to relate empathetically to others - they simply can't think themselves into that space.

 

It can appear very charming - a kind of supreme confidence - which I guess is how they land up in Rs in the first place - when things are going well; but when things start to go badly, the limitations become apparent very quickly.

[OWoman]

I think the bolded part is huge. I think for some people, seeking help is seen as an admission that the love is not strong enough to conquer all. AND nobody ever tells you that what came so easy while you were dating is actually going to take work after you have been married for several years.

 

I think one of the big issues is that people change and grow - and not always in synch. And because married couples get comfortable and familiar around each other, we assume we know where we're at, and where our partner is at... even though we're constantly changing, and the reference point we're referring to may be in the past. I know I've changed enormously from how I was when I first met my H, even though I still feel the same to me. He's changed a great deal, too. As the years go by I'm sure those changes will get more and more - and it would be far easier to fall back on the comfortable, the familiar. I guess we're lucky in that the A serves as a kind of reminder that we need to prioritise the R, and keep our focus, rather than assuming that it's all fine...

[jennie-jennie]

Al-Anon is a wonderful support group to learn how to live with and love an alcoholic. But I do not believe it can replace IC with someone trusted.

 

I would still want to work on me, outside a relationship with an alcoholic.

 

That is exactly what you do in Al-Anon. For so long you have focused on the alcoholic, now you learn to put the focus on yourself.

 

I was terribly sick in OCD when I came to Al-Anon, there I found the help I needed to recover and be able to lead a fulfilling life once again.

[bentnotbroken]

Bent, I am so happy you are no longer with this controlling narcissist, and he can now make believe he is a great lover with a woman who pretends she is satisfied.

 

Lucky you!:)

 

 

Blessed me.

[Spark1111]

Spark, while I'm now in Camp 4, none of the other camps accurately reflected where I was previously. I'd add:

 

5. I am gloriously single, enjoying life to the full and drawing on my friends, family and part-time lovers as and when the mood takes me, having the friendship, intimacy and passion few believe is possible OUTSIDE OF a long-term relationship.

 

 

Yes, I agree. There was a time when I was gloriously single, and I do remember that my life was absorbed with attaining skill in a field of work I loved. Good point.

[Spark1111]

Spark, while I'm now in Camp 4, none of the other camps accurately reflected where I was previously. I'd add:

 

5. I am gloriously single, enjoying life to the full and drawing on my friends, family and part-time lovers as and when the mood takes me, having the friendship, intimacy and passion few believe is possible OUTSIDE OF a long-term relationship.

 

 

I forgot to add: If someone does not experience this phase sometime before marriage or a long-term committed relationship, they always wonder what might have been, and it leaves them with a yearning for freedom, sort of the grass is always greener attitude, IMHO.

 

And that yearning can be the catalyst for many problems later in life, mid-life crisis, or the classic: "I love you, but I am no longer in with you," is the classic line that causes mental health professionals to grown. Why?

 

Because it means you need to recreate your adolescence and you have no idea what mature love resembles.

[Spark1111]

That is exactly what you do in Al-Anon. For so long you have focused on the alcoholic, now you learn to put the focus on yourself.

 

I was terribly sick in OCD when I came to Al-Anon, there I found the help I needed to recover and be able to lead a fulfilling life once again.

 

I get that. But I remain a great believer in a mental health tune-up every so often. It helps me sort out the stress in my life and gives me tools to cope better with it.

 

I have yet to meet the person who lives a perfect life or has a perfect family, (though many pretend to) and I like the tools and insight I gain from an occasional tune-up with an IC.

 

Just wonder why more do not partake or believe they do not have to.

[Spark1111]

Blessed me.

 

You bet you are!

[Spark1111]

I think one of the big issues is that people change and grow - and not always in synch. And because married couples get comfortable and familiar around each other, we assume we know where we're at, and where our partner is at... even though we're constantly changing, and the reference point we're referring to may be in the past. I know I've changed enormously from how I was when I first met my H, even though I still feel the same to me. He's changed a great deal, too. As the years go by I'm sure those changes will get more and more - and it would be far easier to fall back on the comfortable, the familiar. I guess we're lucky in that the A serves as a kind of reminder that we need to prioritise the R, and keep our focus, rather than assuming that it's all fine...

 

I agree with this. The literature I have read says a great relationship encourages and supports a lover to be the best person they can be; it does not manipulate or control or limit another based on insecurity.

 

Also, the great relationships do put each other first, before all.

 

Secondly, each person continues to grow and that makes it interesting and exciting for the partner.

 

Yes, complacency or fitting each other into a box, is certainly the death of a long-term relationship.

 

Boredom can kill.

[jennie-jennie]

I get that. But I remain a great believer in a mental health tune-up every so often. It helps me sort out the stress in my life and gives me tools to cope better with it.

 

I have yet to meet the person who lives a perfect life or has a perfect family, (though many pretend to) and I like the tools and insight I gain from an occasional tune-up with an IC.

 

Just wonder why more do not partake or believe they do not have to.

 

In my country we have state health insurance. I am too well to apply for IC under that. And too poor to pay for my own. So I have to do with internet support boards. It's as simple as that. I am kind of worried that if my MM actually starts IC, he might outgrow me. Wouldn't mind a mental health tune-up myself.

[Got it]

Yes, I tried to get him to go to counselling many times over the lifetime of our marriage. He refused so I started IC. I was able to finally get him to go to one session but after that he refused to go. He didn't feel that he nor us needed it.

 

So, yes, I tried multiple times even up to the last year where I asked him for one thing, just do one thing for me and go to IC (I never asked him for anything. That is why that request was such a big deal). He said he would but never did till after I moved out.

[Got it]

In my country we have state health insurance. I am too well to apply for IC under that. And too poor to pay for my own. So I have to do with internet support boards. It's as simple as that. I am kind of worried that if my MM actually starts IC, he might outgrow me. Wouldn't mind a mental health tune-up myself.

 

{{{{{{JJ}}}}}}} I am sorry you feel that way. Have you discussed it with him?

[jennie-jennie]

{{{{{{JJ}}}}}}} I am sorry you feel that way. Have you discussed it with him?

 

Thanks for the hugs, Got it, your posts are always so helpful to me.

 

I might have mentioned it to him, but not discussed it really, no. Right now I just feel we are stuck in limbo. It is not like I am asking him to leave his wife, just to go to IC and see if it is for him, but he is the kind of guy who prefers to figure things out for himself. I just think this one is too hard for him to manage on his own.

 

Now he suddenly says he is not even sure anymore he is even going to ever tell her. Sigh. It feels like we are stuck in this triangle and going nowhere. I am having a bad day today as you can tell.

[OWoman]

Thanks for the hugs, Got it, your posts are always so helpful to me.

 

I might have mentioned it to him, but not discussed it really, no. Right now I just feel we are stuck in limbo. It is not like I am asking him to leave his wife, just to go to IC and see if it is for him, but he is the kind of guy who prefers to figure things out for himself. I just think this one is too hard for him to manage on his own.

 

Now he suddenly says he is not even sure anymore he is even going to ever tell her. Sigh. It feels like we are stuck in this triangle and going nowhere. I am having a bad day today as you can tell.

 

Jen - has he read the book Heather discussed in the other thread - "When good people have affairs"? Her description of it sounds as if it might be useful to him.

 

Sorry Spark for the t/j...