carhill Posted March 9, 2010 Posted March 9, 2010 Prior to any future proposals, I'll already have one fleshed out with my lawyer and we can negotiate it. Already been cleaned out once. Ain't gonna happen again
Mr White Posted March 9, 2010 Posted March 9, 2010 I'd be pissed. If you don't wanna share your life, blood, belongings, sickness, health, and parenthood responsibilities with me, and you don't see our future being permanent together, than don't marry me! Then again, I don't see a huge deal about getting married, either. That's really not the point. I'd happily share *everything* for AS LONG as we're together. I'd insist on a prenup in case you change your mind. I won't like it, but you'd be welcome to go, as long as you don't take any of the stuff I earned with you (since it'll be no longer "ours").
Awesome Username Posted March 9, 2010 Posted March 9, 2010 That's really not the point. I'd happily share *everything* for AS LONG as we're together. I'd insist on a prenup in case you change your mind. I won't like it, but you'd be welcome to go, as long as you don't take any of the stuff I earned with you (since it'll be no longer "ours"). But if he left me, could he take everything *I* own? That would be a double kick in the gut.
Mr White Posted March 9, 2010 Posted March 9, 2010 But if he left me, could he take everything *I* own? That would be a double kick in the gut. That's why you need a pre-nup. You take yours, he takes his, and there you go.
carhill Posted March 9, 2010 Posted March 9, 2010 In my state all my premarital assets are already protected without a prenup.. including inheritances. Yeah, supposedly in Cali too. But, here's how it works. Separate assets, unless clearly and precisely accounted for, can get 'fuzzy' (quasi marital) during a long marriage. If one party contests and asserts ownership and/or contribution to such assets, the court can consider them for distribution. This contesting involves lawyers and lawyers, at least at the firm I use, are about 300.00 per hour. A couple (each having their own lawyers) can easily rack up 100K in legal fees (not to mention forensic accounting fees) in a contested divorce with lots of fuzzy assets. Guess where that money comes from? Not off the money tree. It comes out of the asset pile, including those nice separate property assets. Then there's the negotiated settlement, unless one wishes a judge (or jury in some cases) to decide unilaterally. It all costs money and money ain't free. I'll use a contract law (business) lawyer for a pre-nup, in consult with a family law and estate planning attorney. I've found it's best to gather as much knowledge as possible up-front. Learned that lesson the hard way. In my case I worked over 20 years a single man prior to getting married. Everyone's circumstances are necessarily different, as is the best avenue to a mutually secure and healthy marital union. Everyone has their own path. The above, for better or worse, is mine.
marsle85 Posted March 9, 2010 Posted March 9, 2010 I'm not super familiar with the legality of pre-nups, so i'd appreciate an answer from anyone with this information: Can't a partner assume "royalties" of sorts for enduring/assisting their partner in their success? So, for example- a woman is financially dependent on her husband while pursuing a company...the company becomes hugely successful, doesn't the husband have right to some of those funds? Does a pre-nup protect/harm you in this case...for both parties?
blue.iris Posted March 9, 2010 Posted March 9, 2010 Would I get offended? No. Would I ever be involved in a serious relationship where we keep our finances separate? No. I'm in a relationship where all the $$ gets piled into one shared account.
threebyfate Posted March 9, 2010 Posted March 9, 2010 I'm not super familiar with the legality of pre-nups, so i'd appreciate an answer from anyone with this information: Can't a partner assume "royalties" of sorts for enduring/assisting their partner in their success? So, for example- a woman is financially dependent on her husband while pursuing a company...the company becomes hugely successful, doesn't the husband have right to some of those funds? Does a pre-nup protect/harm you in this case...for both parties?Divorce law is variable, reliant on jurisdiction, particularly in view of business ventures.
Mr White Posted March 9, 2010 Posted March 9, 2010 Since I'm a professional (rather than a business owner), and will never own any significant amount of physical assets (nor I want to), in a future pre-nup about the only items that I would cover are my retirement accounts and no alimony. Other than that, I have no issues with splitting any other assets (except personal items) acquired DURING the marriage. The other defense I will employ is to insist on a modest standard of living that can be maintained on 1 income. This will result in lots of peace of mind and lots of liquid assets, and in the unfortunate event of a divorce, it will be pretty painless (since all that will be lost is an overly aggressive savings/investments rate.
aerogurl87 Posted March 9, 2010 Posted March 9, 2010 (edited) I wouldn't be insulted. I'd actually be pretty happy because it would mean my future mate was practical and would realize that life doesn't always end in happily ever after. I'd agree to sign it and go over the details with him so we'd both end up with an end product we were happy with. EDIT: With that said I never expect to get divorced, EVER! For me marriage is a once in a lifetime thing. The only way I'm ending it is because of physical or emotional abuse, or cheating. Other than that it's gonna be till death do we part. Edited March 9, 2010 by aerogurl87
Awesome Username Posted March 9, 2010 Posted March 9, 2010 Yeah, supposedly in Cali too. But, here's how it works. Separate assets, unless clearly and precisely accounted for, can get 'fuzzy' (quasi marital) during a long marriage. If one party contests and asserts ownership and/or contribution to such assets, the court can consider them for distribution. This contesting involves lawyers and lawyers, at least at the firm I use, are about 300.00 per hour. A couple (each having their own lawyers) can easily rack up 100K in legal fees (not to mention forensic accounting fees) in a contested divorce with lots of fuzzy assets. Guess where that money comes from? Not off the money tree. It comes out of the asset pile, including those nice separate property assets. Then there's the negotiated settlement, unless one wishes a judge (or jury in some cases) to decide unilaterally. It all costs money and money ain't free. I'll use a contract law (business) lawyer for a pre-nup, in consult with a family law and estate planning attorney. I've found it's best to gather as much knowledge as possible up-front. Learned that lesson the hard way. In my case I worked over 20 years a single man prior to getting married. Everyone's circumstances are necessarily different, as is the best avenue to a mutually secure and healthy marital union. Everyone has their own path. The above, for better or worse, is mine. Lord, when you put it like that, it doesn't sound like such a bad idea.
meerkat stew Posted March 9, 2010 Posted March 9, 2010 Lord, when you put it like that, it doesn't sound like such a bad idea. It is an excellent point Carhill makes. Spending a little on drafting fees and maybe even hurt feelings on the front end reduces the -massive- legal costs of marital disputes on the back end. Colleagues in the domestic relations bar, the ethical ones, tell me all the time that the whole process of plain vanilla divorce is designed to impoverish the disputants and enrich the lawyers.
MrNate Posted March 9, 2010 Posted March 9, 2010 A marriage is a contract. A merger of assets. With a 50% fail rate, you'd be silly not to get one if you had any modicum of assets. Don't tell me that if you're offended by it has nothing to do with the money. BS. A pre-nup is a not a barometer of his/her attraction to you. It's a safety net. That's it. My thoughts exactly.
carhill Posted March 9, 2010 Posted March 9, 2010 Can't a partner assume "royalties" of sorts for enduring/assisting their partner in their success? So, for example- a woman is financially dependent on her husband while pursuing a company...the company becomes hugely successful, doesn't the husband have right to some of those funds? Every jurisdiction is different, but I can tell you from personal knowledge that business colleagues who have built substantial businesses during long marriages have taken legal steps to protect their life's work from unreasonable attack during divorce. This is as much to preserve their own work as it is to preserve the security of their employees and employee families. This tells me that it is possible for a spouse to claim a portion of another spouse's business during a contested divorce and that enough have been successful for these particular people to spend a lot of money to protect themselves. I could've claimed 'support' in the case of my stbx's business, which grew substantially during our M, but chose not to, in return for her not contesting 'fuzzy' assets which were mine long before we were married. It's called 'negotiation'. I had other avenues to pursue, called "Plan B", but it looks like it won't come to that. In the future, it will be otherwise known as 'pre-nup' BTW, people don't have to be 'rich' to be affected profoundly by such dynamics. In fact, the wasting of life's work should be even more important to those of modest means, since it's more difficult to replace that work. You only have so much time on this earth. Make the most of it
Ariadne Posted March 9, 2010 Posted March 9, 2010 I am curious what people think about this...If he were to ask me to sign one, it would be very close to being a deal breaker. If he were to ask me to sign one, I'd sign it on the spot and not read it.
blue.iris Posted March 9, 2010 Posted March 9, 2010 A marriage is a contract. A merger of assets. With a 50% fail rate, you'd be silly not to get one if you had any modicum of assets. Don't tell me that if you're offended by it has nothing to do with the money. BS. A pre-nup is a not a barometer of his/her attraction to you. It's a safety net. That's it. Well, my parents never divorced. None of my aunts and uncles are divorced. None of my elder cousins are divorced. I had a traditional house where my dad worked and my mom stayed at home. It was taken for granted that my dad would pay for my education (and my basic needs). It would have been weird growing up in a house where my father and mother had 'your' and 'my' money. I would expect my marriage to be the same financially. I will have my career, my partner will have his, but we will be sharing all assets.
homersheineken Posted March 9, 2010 Posted March 9, 2010 That's great and awesome, but just because your family hasn't had a divorce, doesn't necessarily mean you won't... Think of it like this... Everyone in your family has built a house and none their houses have come down or even had a problem and don't need insurance. Based on that awesome track record, you won't need insurance either. But what if you marry that once-a-century storm would can then take everything from you and you had a simple and easy chance to protect yourself? Now also remember that divorce is a greater than a once-in-a-century occurence...
threebyfate Posted March 9, 2010 Posted March 9, 2010 Isn't the rate of divorce in the U.S., somewhere around 50%? Romanticism is a high price to pay for 50/50 odds, if you have real assets to protect.
Kamille Posted March 9, 2010 Posted March 9, 2010 Like many others, far from being insulted, I would be pleased that my partner brought up the idea of a prenup. It shows actual dedication to the well-being of us both should anything go bad in the relationship. I'm very romantic... That's what the marriage proposal is for. I'm also very practical, hence, yes, I will sign a prenup if I ever get married.
quankanne Posted March 9, 2010 Posted March 9, 2010 A pre-nup is a not a barometer of his/her attraction to you. It's a safety net. there's something very, very jaded about this outlook. It might be practical, but it's still jaded – if you're going into marriage already planning for divorce, you don't need to be in that relationship. call it silly, call it romantic, but if you're going into it with failure as an option, why even bother getting married? You don't have to hitch up with someone to enjoy his/her company ...
threebyfate Posted March 9, 2010 Posted March 9, 2010 As part of the indicator of prenup or not, look to net asset value, rather than just assets. Someone who's upside-down in their mortgage, with massive student loans on the side and no other assets to speak of, owns nothing.
Kamille Posted March 9, 2010 Posted March 9, 2010 I think of it more in terms of "peace of mind" then of "planned obsolescence". I'm taking out extra health insurance right now, not because I plan to get sick, but because I will be better able to enjoy my trip knowing I'm convered in case of illness-accident. I seriously see a prenup the same way. If I get married it will be a commitment for life, but if something does happen, then we won't have to deal with financial assets while we're both in emotional turmoil.
Kamille Posted March 9, 2010 Posted March 9, 2010 As part of the indicator of prenup or not, look to net asset value, rather than just assets. Someone who's upside-down in their mortgage, with massive student loans on the side and no other assets to speak of, owns nothing. Are you talking about me?
threebyfate Posted March 9, 2010 Posted March 9, 2010 Are you talking about me? Hell no! Just don't want people to waste money on unnecessary legal fees, due to urban myth.
carhill Posted March 9, 2010 Posted March 9, 2010 Very true. Another potential area to scrutinize is where one partner, even though 'upside down', has just finished medical school and part of that 'upside down' is loans for education and starting of the person's private practice as a physician. Even though there is little 'net worth', those start-up costs, borne soley by the partner who incurred them, can and will benefit both partners greatly. If the other partner is not bound to share debts from prior to marriage (generally the case), my position would be that the benefits of those debts would be apportioned to my advantage and of course we would negotiate it. That's just one tiny example of an infinite number of circumstances. Obviously, with folks like myself who didn't get married until later in life and amassed substantial assets/net worth, a pre-nup is a no brainer. Yes, I had no brain. Guilty. Well, I survived anyway. I'm sure stbx is happy
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