Mr White Posted March 9, 2010 Posted March 9, 2010 The issue of when/where/how testing is performed is secondary to the issue of whether a man has a right to know and whether his desire to know is an accusation of infidelity. This is truly about promoting the relationship between a man and his child. I really don't think women can understand this issue unless they really stop to think about it from a man's point of view. Some women will never possess the empathy necessary to do that. Also, you have to exclude the whole issue of cheating. I know, I know, it's impossible and integral to the argument. But PLEASE try. As women, we never have to question whether the child we love is indeed our child. We know it's our child because we saw it exit our body. What if that was not the case? When my son was an infant and toddler, I was regularly asked by strangers if he was adopted. (which is a rude question, btw). He was almost blonde, had green eyes and a very light complexion. The more people asked me this question, the more I became bothered by it. My mom jokingly said to me, "he may not be yours but he is definitely Sam's." (ex-husband, not real name). My son very much looked like his father. If he had not looked like him, I think I would have seriously wondered if he was mine. What a terrible and unnecessary worry to live with indefinitely. But isn't this what men do, what men have always done? Men don't get the physical proof women experience through pregnancy and birth. They have always accepted someone else's representation that they are the father. While that is fine and should be enough, for many men, apparently it isn't. Technology has progressed to a point where a man can have the physical knowledge that he is a father just as a mother has always had it. Why is it wrong for him to want this type of affirmation? Might it not increase the bond between father and child? This is the kind of thinking that makes people feel that their worries, concerns and fears (as irrational as they may be) are validated by another. the substantive content of the worries is not nearly as important as this feeling of validation, of being acknowledged (rather than beat down) for having a feeling, which in turn stimulates further openness, introspection, self-criticism (as appropriate) and communication, rather than harden a defensive, militant stance. Who lives by the sword, dies by the sword, sorta . Shouting "Dealbreaker!" does nothing but reaffirm the fear "I knew I can't trust you!". On the other hand, admitting that other's feelings are valid (i.e. that they exist, and have the right to exist along with any other emotion - which has nothing to do with whether you actually agree) instantly makes people more willing to critically self-evaluate their behavior and ideas.
Mr White Posted March 9, 2010 Posted March 9, 2010 That's not concern about increasing the bond between father and child. That's being scared sh-tless of potentially being forced to take care of one that's not yours. And that's a problem becaaause....? Moreover, can it not occur to you that the fear is so strong precisely because having a child means so much for a father? If so, what could be worse than being duped into a situation where none of the fundamentals (loving and faithful wife, your own offspring) are present?
sweetjasmine Posted March 9, 2010 Posted March 9, 2010 And that's a problem becaaause....? It's not necessarily a problem. Like most fears, it can be reasonable, but at some point, it can become destructive and unhealthy. It's reasonable to check the doors are locked when you leave the house, but it's unreasonable to lock and unlock the door 20 times to make extra super special sure. If I had been in a relationship with a man for only a few months and I accidentally got pregnant and wanted to keep it, I don't think it'd be unreasonable for him to ask for a paternity test. If I were like Michelle Duggar, I'd think it'd be unreasonable and insulting for him to ask, but I would still do it.
JessaL Posted March 9, 2010 Posted March 9, 2010 For me, this is a matter of baggage. In 2006-2007, I had dated a woman for ten months. The relationship in every aspect was fine. She was declaring love and asking for marriage with great frequency. Turned out she was cheating in the last four months of the relationship. I asked her what would have happened if we had gotten married? She replied with candor, "I would have been a good wife and continued to see OM." Oh my, how very Rebecca! I'm glad you didn't marry her and end up the route of Maxim
carhill Posted March 9, 2010 Posted March 9, 2010 In light of the verbiage I posted regarding Oregon state law, which presumes a husband to be the lawful father of the child, regardless of his biological parentage, the statutorial caveat should be that the husband enjoys the lawful right to prove that parentage to his satisfaction, whether within or outside of the 'hospital'. Since body tissues/saliva/cells are involved, the procedures are necessarily adjunct to healthcare and may be affected by existing healthcare privacy laws, like HIPAA, and due consideration should be given statutorially for a father to exercise his rights on his time and his dime to establish paternity to his satisfaction, since the state presumes him legally to be a father without prejudice. If he can show cause that he is not the biological father, there should be remedies available for both himself and the state to establish paternity lawfully in the best interests of the child. The husband of course can assume that paternity, but he should have the choice, as he has no similar choice in any area, to any extent, nor at any time after he deposits his sperm in the woman's vagina. His only reproductive power is his proof of fatherhood. Like I said, I'll be happy to pay. Love kids, especially my own.
sweetjasmine Posted March 9, 2010 Posted March 9, 2010 If he can show cause that he is not the biological father, there should be remedies available for both himself and the state to establish paternity lawfully in the best interests of the child. FWIW, I agree. Laws in this area are pretty lopsided and messed up. And the way child support agencies are run in the US is often appalling. Non-custodial parents - especially if they're men - are automatically treated like garbage, even if they've overpaid every month and play an active role in the child's life.
Taramere Posted March 9, 2010 Posted March 9, 2010 No problem. I'll hire an approved independent third party licensed to work in the healthcare environment to do the tests. I see a potential business opportunity Somehow I doubt you're the first person to spot the money-making potential of getting involved in the DNA testing industry. More fool people. I can certainly see mandatory testing being brought in in the US, where big business has ways and means of getting the government to lobby in its favour. Where a bit of "can you be sure your partner is faithful to you" panic mongering is enough to make people go all frothy headed. I guess you're correct, Carhill, in taking an opportunistic position in amongst that kind of craziness. TBF...you're the investment expert here. Might it be time for you to carry out a little research on the DNA industry?
FryFish Posted March 9, 2010 Posted March 9, 2010 My father certainly never doubted that we were his kidsYou dont know that.
threebyfate Posted March 9, 2010 Posted March 9, 2010 Taramere! Already got some biopharms/biotechs, due to the Baby Boomers! Since carhill quotes Oregon laws, here's how men can refute paternity in Oregon. It's not as if a vehicle for this, isn't in existence: http://www.oregon.gov/DHS/ph/chs/change/paternityfaqs.shtml#paternity1 Q: If paternity has been established and one of the parents has reason to believe that the man established as the father on the birth certificate is not the birth father, what can the parent do? Up to sixty days after filing a Voluntary Acknowledgment of Paternity form, either the father or the mother may request that the father's name be removed from the birth certificate. To remove the father's name a Rescind or "Take Back" of Paternity Acknowledgment form must be filed with the Center for Health Statistics within sixty days. Parents may call 971-673-1155 or e-mail a staff person listed below and ask for the "Rescind of Voluntary Acknowledgment" form for either the mother or the father. There is no fee for filing this form. Up to one year after filing the Voluntary Acknowledgment of Paternity form, either parent can request parentage testing. Paternity established by either the Division of Child Support (DCS) or the District Attorney (DA) can also be reopened in the first year by requesting parentage tests if they were not done before. Please contact your local DCS or DA office for additional information. Once testing is completed, a court order may be issued to either remove or change the father listed on the birth certificate. The Center for Health Statistics will need a certified copy of the court order (showing the original stamp and signature of the court official), and a fee of $50. The fee includes the cost of a new certified copy of the updated birth certificate. Parents who petition a court directly need to obtain a certified copy of the court order. In cases where the Division of Child Support follows up by completing the parentage tests, DCS may send a certified copy of the court order to our office to change the name of the father on the birth certificate. After a full year from the date paternity was established, either parent challenging the name of the father on a birth record must petition a court and obtain a court order to either remove or change the father listed on the birth record. Again, the Center for Health Statistics needs a certified copy of the court order with the original stamp and seal of the court and the $50 fee for changing the birth certificate.
Author txsilkysmoothe Posted March 9, 2010 Author Posted March 9, 2010 That being said, a demand for a paternity test in a long-term trusting relationship where there's no reason to suspect cheating is going to be taken as an accusation of infidelity.QUOTE] Initially, that was my feeling as well. But I gave it some thought and think there is a huge difference between a man's fear of infidelity and an actual accusation of infidelity. That other thread was originally based on the premise that there was no suspicion of cheating and yet many men still wanted paternity testing. That struck a cord with me. Should men have such a fear of infidelity? I don't think so, but they do and it is probably only going to grow as sex continues to be treated more and more casually and self-gratification is placed above all other considerations by both sexes. Should men fear a woman will pass another man's child off as theirs? I don't think so, but they do. I don't know women who would do such a thing but I don't doubt it's been done. I think a lot of men are "reacting" to either their own experiences or those of male friends/acquaintances. The word "protect" was used repeatedly by men throughout that other thread. I think the desire to confirm paternity as a practice will become mainstream among men if it hasn't already. We women better be ready.
FryFish Posted March 9, 2010 Posted March 9, 2010 Yes, I do. No, the very nature of existence completely PRECLUDES you from KNOWING the thoughts and feelings of anyone other than yourself. So, unless you are god, You dont know that.
sweetjasmine Posted March 9, 2010 Posted March 9, 2010 No, the very nature of existence completely PRECLUDES you from KNOWING the thoughts and feelings of anyone other than yourself. So, unless you are god, You dont know that. It's impossible for me to have a conversation with my father?
ADF Posted March 9, 2010 Posted March 9, 2010 Then anyone who doesn't 100% believe the child is one they fathered, should insist on a prenatal paternity test. If she refuses, then refuse to sign the birth certificate. A man can do that, but chances are the whole mess will still have to be sorted out in court. If the mother knows he isn't the father, she will fight him to cover herself. In the end, he'll win, but it can take a long time. I should say one thing, however. As someone who works in the field of family law, I can tell you that in the vast majority of cases, men who deny (or question) paternity are full of it. In most cases, they know damned well they are the father, but just don't want to pay support. They figure if they stonewall the mother long enough, she'll give up. Yes, once and in a while we see a false accusation of paternity. But they are pretty rare.
bayouboi Posted March 9, 2010 Posted March 9, 2010 It's impossible for me to have a conversation with my father? sweetjasmine: Hey dad, did you ever have doubts about me being your child? sjm'sdad: I SURE DID! Pretty sure he'd never admit that even if he had.
Jersey Shortie Posted March 9, 2010 Posted March 9, 2010 Since I know that you're willing to accept responsibility for the consequences of your actions in requesting a paternity test, more power to you and I mean that sincerely. The only reason to want to incorporate it into the existing healthcare system, is firstly, men who don't want to take responsibility for their demand for a pat test and/or want others to supplement their trust issues; both emotionally since they can blame the system for enforcing a pat test, rather than accept personal responsibility for it; as well as financially, through insurance premiums or as taxpayers. I have zero sympathy for men like this. It would be just as bad to incorporate fertility tests into the healthcare system, so you don't end up with someone who's infertile. If your own children are that important to you, get the tests done on your own time, keeping the drama out of the healthcare system. Excellent posting Three.
FryFish Posted March 9, 2010 Posted March 9, 2010 It's impossible for me to have a conversation with my father? Its impossible for you to KNOW what he is thinking and feeling. Its not impossible for you two to talk.
sweetjasmine Posted March 9, 2010 Posted March 9, 2010 They figure if they stonewall the mother long enough, she'll give up. My SO was encouraged by his parents and advisers in the military to do this by refusing to sign the paper acknowledging paternity, and because he was a scared 18 year old kid, he did what they told him to do, and everything got ugly and messy. Today, he feels like a complete scumbag for doing that, but he sees his kid on a regular basis and makes sure she's taken care of. Mom ran off to another city some months or maybe a year after birth because she couldn't handle having a kid, and she only sees the kid a few times a year and doesn't pay support. The kid's grandma has custody, but grandma refuses to go after her daughter for child support.
sweetjasmine Posted March 9, 2010 Posted March 9, 2010 sweetjasmine: Hey dad, did you ever have doubts about me being your child? sjm'sdad: I SURE DID! Pretty sure he'd never admit that even if he had. He sure would. He's not the type of person to keep things to himself, and it often leads to him saying insensitive things. He had no problems telling me about the time he and my mother temporarily separated and how he was living with another woman.
carhill Posted March 9, 2010 Posted March 9, 2010 TBF, based on my experiences in court with much simpler matters, I would conservatively budget ~$10K to pursue such a matter if contested; in other words, if I challenged parentage and the mother refused to cooperate in the challenge to paternity. This is why, to me, doing it 'after the fact', and necessarily legally, is cost/time/emotionally inefficient. Pay a small fee up-front; the results are in. Proceed
FryFish Posted March 9, 2010 Posted March 9, 2010 There seems to be a misconception about what it is to KNOW something vs what it is to be reasonably sure of something. In most cases the two can be interchangeable without the loss of any meaning... but not in ALL cases. For instance, most guys "know" that their child truly is their child... when in fact they are only reasonably sure it is.
threebyfate Posted March 9, 2010 Posted March 9, 2010 A man can do that, but chances are the whole mess will still have to be sorted out in court. If the mother knows he isn't the father, she will fight him to cover herself. In the end, he'll win, but it can take a long time. I should say one thing, however. As someone who works in the field of family law, I can tell you that in the vast majority of cases, men who deny (or question) paternity are full of it. In most cases, they know damned well they are the father, but just don't want to pay support. They figure if they stonewall the mother long enough, she'll give up. Yes, once and in a while we see a false accusation of paternity. But they are pretty rare.That's why the the figure of 97%, makes mandatory paternity tests, nothing but nuisance costs to everyone. For the 3%, men should pursue this through Tort Law means, for emotional distress. Some have won these cases.
Taramere Posted March 9, 2010 Posted March 9, 2010 Taramere! Already got some biopharms/biotechs, due to the Baby Boomers! Ethical investment? I think so. Getting little Crystal's cheek cells checked in the lab opens up a special place in Daddy's heart for her. Not to mention proving that her existence owes absolutely nothing to Jim, the short order chef in Pussies Galore, or Bob the dope seller who lives in the cream coloured trailer in the corner of the park. If it turns that little family into a happy, clappy Disney special, then by God let's feel warm and fuzzy about buying Orchid Cellmark. I'm hearing Don la Fontaine wheedling away in my head now. "In a world where few things are certain, you want the best for your family. YOUR family. Your biological family." (pause as footage of smiling golden haired family is aired). "You trust your wife, and doesn't it feel good?" (kindly smile in the voice) In the last 6 months, Allmine Healthcare has helped thousands of American families to experience the good things in life. The things that really matter. Trust. Certainty. Reassurance. Love....Now, for a limited period only and for the special price of $480...""
threebyfate Posted March 9, 2010 Posted March 9, 2010 Ethical investment? I think so. Getting little Crystal's cheek cells checked in the lab opens up a special place in Daddy's heart for her. Not to mention proving that her existence owes absolutely nothing to Jim, the short order chef in Pussies Galore, or Bob the dope seller who lives in the cream coloured trailer in the corner of the park. If it turns that little family into a happy, clappy Disney special, then by God let's feel warm and fuzzy about buying Orchid Cellmark. I'm hearing Don la Fontaine wheedling away in my head now. "In a world where few things are certain, you want the best for your family. YOUR family. Your biological family." (pause as footage of smiling golden haired family is aired). "You trust your wife, and doesn't it feel good?" (kindly smile in the voice) In the last 6 months, Allmine Healthcare has helped thousands of American families to experience the good things in life. The things that really matter. Trust. Certainty. Reassurance. Love....Now, for a limited period only and for the special price of $480..."" Wouldn't hip-hop appeal more to the pat test generation? Click, click, Click, click, Yeah Click, click, Click, click, Yeah, Dat lil biatch dun u wrong, Make her spit, spit, spit on swab, Yo' homie, you ain't no dad, But if you is, yo know fo' sho'. carhill, if men do it upfront, that's sincerely their call to make. I just have a problem with paying for 97% nuisance tests, just like I have a problem with nuisance suits in general.
carhill Posted March 9, 2010 Posted March 9, 2010 carhill, if men do it upfront, that's sincerely their call to make. I just have a problem with paying for 97% nuisance tests, just like I have a problem with nuisance suits in general.I'm with you. I loathe every second I have to spend with a lawyer or in court. I'd rather be out doing positive things in the world. Getting it clear and delineated at the beginning is so important in any matter with legal import, IMO. It is truly the snowball effect. Sure, anyone can challenge anything at any time for any reason, but measures like are being discussed today, positive paternity and pre-nups amongst them, are layers of accountability and responsibility which benefit all parties.
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