Author txsilkysmoothe Posted March 9, 2010 Author Posted March 9, 2010 I'm well aware that that's what it's about. What I'm addressing is the notion that the government should get embroiled in introducing "routine" measures whose real purpose is to enable those men to test out the paternity issue in a non-direct manner. Why should others have to pay for that? Let these couples thrash any doubts out between them...and meet the cost of paternity testing themselves. Stop assuming others would be paying for it. How is it non-direct? The woman and man are both present. You are the only one that used the word "mandatory." Why do you care if hospitals offer a service that benefits others? I personally believe it benefits the child to know it's parentage.
ADF Posted March 9, 2010 Posted March 9, 2010 The reason paternity becomes an issue AFTER conception is because it is at that point men face a potential financial burden. It's really that simple. The human capacity for denial is immense. Men who suspect cheating can rationalize, deny, look the way, ect. But they cannot evade paying child support without risking serious consequences, up to and including incarceration.
threebyfate Posted March 9, 2010 Posted March 9, 2010 The reason paternity becomes an issue AFTER conception is because it is at that point men face a potential financial burden. It's really that simple. The human capacity for denial is immense. Men who suspect cheating can rationalize, deny, look the way, ect. But they cannot evade paying child support without risking serious consequences, up to and including incarceration.Then anyone who doesn't 100% believe the child is one they fathered, should insist on a prenatal paternity test. If she refuses, then refuse to sign the birth certificate.
MrNate Posted March 9, 2010 Posted March 9, 2010 Well, what's the problem with that? Much better than just leaving it to the woman to selectively decide whom to declare the father. You go there, do the test, if it is yours - you pay child support or marry, depending on the situation, if it is not - you are on your way... I agree word for word. Men have every right to right to know if they would be raising their own child or some other man's offspring.
Author txsilkysmoothe Posted March 9, 2010 Author Posted March 9, 2010 No, men don't have to sign the birth certificate. I said "expected" and I've personally witnessed a hospital's approach to this issue. They don't tell him what his rights are. I'm sure by signing the AOP, it makes it easier for the hospital to hold him responsible for the medical bills. In Texas, if the man signs the AOP at the time of birth, the fee for listing him on the birth certificate is waived.
sweetjasmine Posted March 9, 2010 Posted March 9, 2010 I have no personal negative reaction to the notion of hospitals/insurance companies routinely performing 'identity' tests on newborns; for me it does not carry the feeling of personal slight and accusation that an unwarranted demand for the same from my husband would. However I can see how it could be difficult to implement, legally, and could be a problem for right-to-privacy issues with the government. Plus, the error rate. Not to mention mistakes and mix-ups. How much would it suck to get the result that it's yours when it's not? Or vice versa?
marsle85 Posted March 9, 2010 Posted March 9, 2010 What about a man who entered the life of a female, pregnant with another man's baby... stuck around for 10-12 years and decided to leave. It's called "Father-support", not "biological semen donor-support". Where is the line drawn? Biology? Or the role of "father"? Don't misinterpret this- i'm not saying it's right... just posing the question.
threebyfate Posted March 9, 2010 Posted March 9, 2010 I said "expected" and I've personally witnessed a hospital's approach to this issue. They don't tell him what his rights are. I'm sure by signing the AOP, it makes it easier for the hospital to hold him responsible for the medical bills. In Texas, if the man signs the AOP at the time of birth, the fee for listing him on the birth certificate is waived.So, you want insurance premium payers to supplement over $800 million dollars PER annum, for a purported 3% of false fatherhood claims, since certain men are concerned but not enough to find out their rights or are cheap enough to throw away their rights, for a measly fee? Healthcare is about physical health and life, not morality. People need to keep morality out of healthcare.
marsle85 Posted March 9, 2010 Posted March 9, 2010 Holla @ Threebyfate. And I posted this in the similar "Pre-nup" thread, haha: Hmm...but can you test everything? And I know scientifically paternity tests are quite helpful in a plentiful amount of cases. But unfortunately so much more goes into the act of producing that child (illegitimate or not) relationships, and marriage than a black/white decision. At what point do we stop testing? IMO, the complexity of human emotions/sexuality are far too advanced for a nominal examination.
Taramere Posted March 9, 2010 Posted March 9, 2010 Stop assuming others would be paying for it. How is it non-direct? The woman and man are both present. You are the only one that used the word "mandatory." Why do you care if hospitals offer a service that benefits others? I personally believe it benefits the child to know it's parentage. Okay. So you don't think they should be mandatory. You just think hospitals should perform paternity tests as a matter of routine. Whatever spin you want to put on it, the upshot would be that hospitals would automatically perform these tests whenever a baby is born. Someone has to pay for that, and it isn't cheap. If the woman has private health insurance, that company pays...and will claw back the cost of paying for all these very expensive tests in the form of increased insurance premiums. In countries with universal health care, the taxpayer pays. If it's the US, and the woman isn't covered by private health insurance, she and her partner will be presented with a big bill for the paternity test that the hospital carried out as a matter of routine. Hospitals already offer this service, and I don't care at all. What I object to is the notion of such an expensive procedure - and one that many couples would consider entirely unnecessary for them - being carried out as a matter of routine.
MrNate Posted March 9, 2010 Posted March 9, 2010 What about a man who entered the life of a female, pregnant with another man's baby... stuck around for 10-12 years and decided to leave. It's called "Father-support", not "biological semen donor-support". Where is the line drawn? Biology? Or the role of "father"? Don't misinterpret this- i'm not saying it's right... just posing the question. funny enough, I've seen a similar situation, and no, the dad was not responsible for that child; only the children he had with that woman.
marsle85 Posted March 9, 2010 Posted March 9, 2010 funny enough, I've seen a similar situation, and no, the dad was not responsible for that child; only the children he had with that woman. That makes sense, but it's still kind of unfortunate for the child, right? Especially if the woman is in no condition to take care of the child. The same goes for custody rights- if the "fake father" is a better substitute for parenthood, I know that it's VERY, VERY difficult (almost impossible) for a non-biologically linked parent to acquire custody. Additionally, this problem is also linked to homosexual parents. Biology does not pay the bills, biology does not nuture and love the child, biology does not teach the child, biology does not install curfews, biology does not do ANYTHING- except cement or tear families apart.
meerkat stew Posted March 9, 2010 Posted March 9, 2010 With respect, are men concerned about determining whether their wife/gf has cheated before pregnancy is involved? Thanks for your measured tone about this issue. For me, this is a matter of baggage. In 2006-2007, I had dated a woman for ten months. The relationship in every aspect was fine. She was declaring love and asking for marriage with great frequency. Turned out she was cheating in the last four months of the relationship. I asked her what would have happened if we had gotten married? She replied with candor, "I would have been a good wife and continued to see OM." Having been previously completely trusting in relationships, this was a massive eye-opener and very humbling. Anyone can be tricked and fooled by anyone else. No "refined judgment of character" can prevent it. Looking back on my relationships, it became apparent that I had been cheated on several times in the past, maybe even in a majority of my relationships, with no indication that it was going on. Each time by a woman who was affectionate, showed no signs of dissatisfaction, no lessened contact, etc. Each time an exclusivity arrangement was in place, ironically -always- initiated by her a bit earlier than I was comfortable. I had chosen not to believe things that were obvious in retrospect out of pride. My last GF in 2009 may have begun cheating before we broke up. She certainly did call every male friend I had introduced her to within a few days of when we started the fight that led to the breakup. They came to me and told me, some much later. That particular one was -adoring- of me, even immediately post breakup, at the very same time she was calling my friends up and feeling them out to cheat. All these women were from a solid family background, highly educated, accomplished in their fields. Not "Springerettes" by a long shot. All of them pressed me into an exclusive relationship quickly, most before I was comfortable. I used to think this sort of thing was cute and romantic, now I know otherwise. Do you expect the test to confirm you're the father and view it as a mere confirmation process? (hard to predict future circumstance, I know) Yes. But as Mr. White has stated in a couple of posts, with the right woman, one who has an obvious sense of ethics and principles, one who does not have exes, fwbs and bogus male friends floating about, one who has never had a substance abuse, eating disorder or diagnosed personality disorder, one who does not have low self esteem or insecurity issues, one who showed no signs of impulsive behavior, one who acts consistently from day to day, most men IMO wouldn't ask for the test, self included. This day and age, though, that's a hard list to tick off. Just as it is for women trying to find men of substance or character, rare breeds. It is hard today to cultivate the trusting attitude that a healthy relationship requires while at the same time keeping tab on red flags, a tightrope even. If a woman's feelings are hurt, I have to ask how much hurt feelings are worth the time, effort and money for a man to be obligated to raise a child. It seems a subtextual attitude among certain women posters that a man -should- be obligated to raise children who aren't his, despite that no woman is going to admit this attitude, the extreme defensiveness about this issue suggests that it exists. How will you as the husband/bf manage the nine month pregnancy - as the expectant father?, going to the dr. visits?, in the delivery room?, being the first to hold the child? Of course, all those things if I am the father. If not, none of the above. If a paternity test indicates you are NOT the father, will you end the relationship? Instantly. If yes, will you end it because of the cheating or the existence of the child? Both. From the other threads it seems some men take the position that "doubting" paternity is necessary in this day and age. How very sad for us all. Not exactly necessary, but advisable if the woman displays a few of the traits listed above.
MrNate Posted March 9, 2010 Posted March 9, 2010 That makes sense, but it's still kind of unfortunate for the child, right? Especially if the woman is in no condition to take care of the child. The same goes for custody rights- if the "fake father" is a better substitute for parenthood, I know that it's VERY, VERY difficult (almost impossible) for a non-biologically linked parent to acquire custody. Additionally, this problem is also linked to homosexual parents. Biology does not pay the bills, biology does not nuture and love the child, biology does not teach the child, biology does not install curfews, biology does not do ANYTHING- except cement or tear families apart. that's just how it is. There's a lot of things biology doesn't do, but it is the source of a lot of big decisions, as it should be, because it can't be debated or twisted with lies. No one should bear responsibilities that have nothing to do with them or what they consider important. Yes, it sucks for the child, but that's just the way it is. When it comes to children, decisions like these are made everyday.
meerkat stew Posted March 9, 2010 Posted March 9, 2010 Someone has to pay for that, and it isn't cheap. Tests, just like drugs, have a way of becoming rapidly cheaper the more they are used due to competitive market forces. Drug tests used to be very expensive, now cheap as dirt.
carhill Posted March 9, 2010 Posted March 9, 2010 Here's some relevant verbiage from the state of Oregon: Q: How is paternity established if the mother was not married during the pregnancy? Both parents may sign a Voluntary Acknowledgment of Paternity form at the hospital or birthing center when the child is born. Oregon hospital staff will make the form available and will witness the parents' signatures. No fee will be charged and the father's name will be added to the birth certificate at the hospital. Parents cannot use this form if the mother was married at any time during the pregnancy because Oregon law makes a husband the presumed father of the child. So, in Oregon, state law proscribes the husband to be the 'presumed father', carrying those legal obligations, regardless of whether he is the biological father or not. This Oregon government site has some great FAQ's and information on paternity and birth-related statute. I imagine each jurisdiction has its own unique statutes which interplay with federal law. Regarding costs, I'd have to do some research to get precise numbers, but, in relation to the cost of live hospital birth (which someone pays for), a paternity test would be a relatively small increment of that cost. Ever see a real hospital bill? I've seen plenty, over a million dollars worth in my mom's case. They nickel and dime you to death. Add a couple hundred bucks for another test and there ya go. Health insurance with maternity coverage is expensive anyway (we had it) and the economies of scale would take over, just like in any other instance. If you look at that Oregon government site, or any other site, it's quite evident that the government is well into our pockets and lives regarding children so IMO this additional test wouldn't be an additional intrusion, but rather in support of existing intrusions. If you want a revolution, kill the government and get rid of it. Pick your battles. I had enough of them with HIPAA and a demented person to last a lifetime. Here's some evidence of that intrusion, from the Oregon site: Q: How is paternity established if the mother was married during the pregnancy to someone who is not the father or if one parent refuses to sign the Voluntary Acknowledgment of Paternity affidavit? Paternity may be established by a legal order from the Division of Child Support or by a court order. If either the father or the mother will not agree to establish paternity and the child is under the age of 18, either parent may ask the Division of Child Support for assistance. The Division of Child Support (DCS) may file paperwork that results in a legal order to establish paternity and add the father's name to the birth certificate. If the mother receives public assistance from any Oregon agency such as the Department of Human Services or the Oregon Youth Authority, a child support case will be referred to the Division of Child Support automatically. If the mother does not receive public assistance, either parent can apply for services with the local county District Attorney. The Division of Child Support is also responsible for assuring that children are provided with adequate financial support. For information about the child support program, applying for child support, and links to legal assistance agencies, please see the Oregon Division of Child Support FAQs. You may also find additional information in the Handbook on Child Support Enforcement from the U.S. Department of Health and Human Services. I'll be happy to be a loving and supportive father to any children I may biologically sire, and, in addition, I'll pay the cost of proving that parentage genetically. Done
silic0ntoad Posted March 9, 2010 Posted March 9, 2010 Just to reiterate from my other post in the PT thread: [COLOR=#660000]http://jonathanturley.org/2009/01/09...ot-the-father/[/COLOR] [COLOR=#660000]http://www.videosift.com/video/Man-I...His?loadcomm=1[/COLOR] [COLOR=#660000]http://www.ejfi.org/family/family-83.htm[/COLOR] [COLOR=#660000]http://www.parentdish.com/2009/01/20...ds-that-arent/[/COLOR] I hope people are understanding of why some men demand PT.
threebyfate Posted March 9, 2010 Posted March 9, 2010 I hope people are understanding of why some men demand PT. No offense but I'm not clicking on those unknown site links. IF men want paternity tests, they should personally pay for them and negotiate this with the mother of their children. IF their relationship implodes due to their misdirected mistrust, that's all on them. The hell the rest of us will pay for a 97% nuisance test.
Author txsilkysmoothe Posted March 9, 2010 Author Posted March 9, 2010 The issue of when/where/how testing is performed is secondary to the issue of whether a man has a right to know and whether his desire to know is an accusation of infidelity. This is truly about promoting the relationship between a man and his child. I really don't think women can understand this issue unless they really stop to think about it from a man's point of view. Some women will never possess the empathy necessary to do that. Also, you have to exclude the whole issue of cheating. I know, I know, it's impossible and integral to the argument. But PLEASE try. As women, we never have to question whether the child we love is indeed our child. We know it's our child because we saw it exit our body. What if that was not the case? When my son was an infant and toddler, I was regularly asked by strangers if he was adopted. (which is a rude question, btw). He was almost blonde, had green eyes and a very light complexion. The more people asked me this question, the more I became bothered by it. My mom jokingly said to me, "he may not be yours but he is definitely Sam's." (ex-husband, not real name). My son very much looked like his father. If he had not looked like him, I think I would have seriously wondered if he was mine. What a terrible and unnecessary worry to live with indefinitely. But isn't this what men do, what men have always done? Men don't get the physical proof women experience through pregnancy and birth. They have always accepted someone else's representation that they are the father. While that is fine and should be enough, for many men, apparently it isn't. Technology has progressed to a point where a man can have the physical knowledge that he is a father just as a mother has always had it. Why is it wrong for him to want this type of affirmation? Might it not increase the bond between father and child?
threebyfate Posted March 9, 2010 Posted March 9, 2010 The issue of when/where/how testing is performed is secondary to the issue of whether a man has a right to know and whether his desire to know is an accusation of infidelity. This is truly about promoting the relationship between a man and his child. I really don't think women can understand this issue unless they really stop to think about it from a man's point of view. Some women will never possess the empathy necessary to do that. Also, you have to exclude the whole issue of cheating. I know, I know, it's impossible and integral to the argument. But PLEASE try. As women, we never have to question whether the child we love is indeed our child. We know it's our child because we saw it exit our body. What if that was not the case? When my son was an infant and toddler, I was regularly asked by strangers if he was adopted. (which is a rude question, btw). He was almost blonde, had green eyes and a very light complexion. The more people asked me this question, the more I became bothered by it. My mom jokingly said to me, "he may not be yours but he is definitely Sam's." (ex-husband, not real name). My son very much looked like his father. If he had not looked like him, I think I would have seriously wondered if he was mine. What a terrible and unnecessary worry to live with indefinitely. But isn't this what men do, what men have always done? Men don't get the physical proof women experience through pregnancy and birth. They have always accepted someone else's representation that they are the father. While that is fine and should be enough, for many men, apparently it isn't. Technology has progressed to a point where a man can have the physical knowledge that he is a father just as a mother has always had it. Why is it wrong for him to want this type of affirmation? Might it not increase the bond between father and child?These issues are between the man and the woman. It's got nothing to do with health. Keep it out of the healthcare system. Costs are high enough as they are, without pandering to 97% nuisance tests.
silic0ntoad Posted March 9, 2010 Posted March 9, 2010 The issue of when/where/how testing is performed is secondary to the issue of whether a man has a right to know and whether his desire to know is an accusation of infidelity. This is truly about promoting the relationship between a man and his child. I really don't think women can understand this issue unless they really stop to think about it from a man's point of view. Some women will never possess the empathy necessary to do that. Also, you have to exclude the whole issue of cheating. I know, I know, it's impossible and integral to the argument. But PLEASE try. As women, we never have to question whether the child we love is indeed our child. We know it's our child because we saw it exit our body. What if that was not the case? When my son was an infant and toddler, I was regularly asked by strangers if he was adopted. (which is a rude question, btw). He was almost blonde, had green eyes and a very light complexion. The more people asked me this question, the more I became bothered by it. My mom jokingly said to me, "he may not be yours but he is definitely Sam's." (ex-husband, not real name). My son very much looked like his father. If he had not looked like him, I think I would have seriously wondered if he was mine. What a terrible and unnecessary worry to live with indefinitely. But isn't this what men do, what men have always done? Men don't get the physical proof women experience through pregnancy and birth. They have always accepted someone else's representation that they are the father. While that is fine and should be enough, for many men, apparently it isn't. Technology has progressed to a point where a man can have the physical knowledge that he is a father just as a mother has always had it. Why is it wrong for him to want this type of affirmation? Might it not increase the bond between father and child? Bravo. Probably the most well thought out, and easily the most logical stance I've seen a woman take on this issue.
carhill Posted March 9, 2010 Posted March 9, 2010 These issues are between the man and the woman. It's got nothing to do with health. Keep it out of the healthcare system. Costs are high enough as they are, without pandering to 97% nuisance tests.No problem. I'll hire an approved independent third party licensed to work in the healthcare environment to do the tests. I see a potential business opportunity
meerkat stew Posted March 9, 2010 Posted March 9, 2010 These issues are between the man and the woman. It's got nothing to do with health. Keep it out of the healthcare system. Costs are high enough as they are, without pandering to 97% nuisance tests. What if the test could be attached to a simple genetic defect screen at marginal expense? Fact is they could, and another fact is that the reason they aren't is that men are seen as completely fungible commodities politically.
sweetjasmine Posted March 9, 2010 Posted March 9, 2010 The issue of when/where/how testing is performed is secondary to the issue of whether a man has a right to know and whether his desire to know is an accusation of infidelity. Yes, he has a right to know. Absolutely. That being said, a demand for a paternity test in a long-term trusting relationship where there's no reason to suspect cheating is going to be taken as an accusation of infidelity. This is truly about promoting the relationship between a man and his child. I can see how some people would look at it that way. But read the responses in the long paternity thread. For a lot of people responding, it's not an issue about the relationship between the man and his child. It's about not trusting a woman because other women don't keep their legs closed. Go back and look through the posts, and see how often people mention the child's needs and the bond between the father and child and compare that to how many times people mention women being cheaters and liars. If he had not looked like him, I think I would have seriously wondered if he was mine. What a terrible and unnecessary worry to live with indefinitely. But isn't this what men do, what men have always done? I don't know, I find it hard to believe that all men wake up each morning and think about whether their kids are actually theirs. My father certainly never doubted that we were his kids, so I don't see how men have always had to live with that uncertainty until the day they die. If you do wonder "but is it really mine?" every time you look at your child when there was never any suspicion of cheating, then I'm not even convinced a paternity test would solve that problem. Would you then wonder whether the test came up a false positive? Would it really give you peace of mind? Technology has progressed to a point where a man can have the physical knowledge that he is a father just as a mother has always had it. Why is it wrong for him to want this type of affirmation? It's not wrong. It's just likely to be hurtful to demand a test in the context of a good, stable relationship or even as a matter of policy. Would it be reasonable to have Michelle Duggar do a paternity test on all 19 of her children? Might it not increase the bond between father and child? It's not about increasing the bond between father and child. A lot of the men who seem insistent on paternity testing in all cases are worried about getting roped in and tied down financially to take care of a kid that isn't theirs. That's not concern about increasing the bond between father and child. That's being scared sh-tless of potentially being forced to take care of one that's not yours.
threebyfate Posted March 9, 2010 Posted March 9, 2010 No problem. I'll hire an approved independent third party licensed to work in the healthcare environment to do the tests. I see a potential business opportunity Since I know that you're willing to accept responsibility for the consequences of your actions in requesting a paternity test, more power to you and I mean that sincerely. The only reason to want to incorporate it into the existing healthcare system, is firstly, men who don't want to take responsibility for their demand for a pat test and/or want others to supplement their trust issues; both emotionally since they can blame the system for enforcing a pat test, rather than accept personal responsibility for it; as well as financially, through insurance premiums or as taxpayers. I have zero sympathy for men like this. It would be just as bad to incorporate fertility tests into the healthcare system, so you don't end up with someone who's infertile. If your own children are that important to you, get the tests done on your own time, keeping the drama out of the healthcare system.
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