txsilkysmoothe Posted March 9, 2010 Posted March 9, 2010 Forgive me for starting yet another thread regarding cheating and paternity, but I haven't seen my questions answered in the other threads. With respect, are men concerned about determining whether their wife/gf has cheated before pregnancy is involved? I understand at the point of pregnancy/birth, the issue becomes one of the man protecting himself from being deemed the child's father if he is not; of avoiding legal responsibility for another man's child. (For the record, I believe a man is always entitled to a paternity test.) However, if cheating is suspected at pregnancy/birth, I imagine it was suspected prior in the relationship as well. How can they be together for years (possibly) and the need to know whether she has cheated only come to the forefront when she becomes pregnant? What about all the non-pregnancy time, which is of far greater volume? Are concerns/suspicions ignored during this time? I'm having a hard time understanding how a man can be with a woman knowing should she become pregnant, his first thought will be "Is it mine?" These are my specific questions for those who want a paternity test - Do you expect the test to confirm you're the father and view it as a mere confirmation process? (hard to predict future circumstance, I know) How will you as the husband/bf manage the nine month pregnancy - as the expectant father?, going to the dr. visits?, in the delivery room?, being the first to hold the child? If a paternity test indicates you are NOT the father, will you end the relationship? If yes, will you end it because of the cheating or the existence of the child? From the other threads it seems some men take the position that "doubting" paternity is necessary in this day and age. How very sad for us all.
Mr White Posted March 9, 2010 Posted March 9, 2010 (edited) Forgive me for starting yet another thread regarding cheating and paternity, but I haven't seen my questions answered in the other threads. With respect, are men concerned about determining whether their wife/gf has cheated before pregnancy is involved? I understand at the point of pregnancy/birth, the issue becomes one of the man protecting himself from being deemed the child's father if he is not; of avoiding legal responsibility for another man's child. (For the record, I believe a man is always entitled to a paternity test.) However, if cheating is suspected at pregnancy/birth, I imagine it was suspected prior in the relationship as well. How can they be together for years (possibly) and the need to know whether she has cheated only come to the forefront when she becomes pregnant? What about all the non-pregnancy time, which is of far greater volume? Are concerns/suspicions ignored during this time? I'm having a hard time understanding how a man can be with a woman knowing should she become pregnant, his first thought will be "Is it mine?" These are my specific questions for those who want a paternity test - Do you expect the test to confirm you're the father and view it as a mere confirmation process? (hard to predict future circumstance, I know) How will you as the husband/bf manage the nine month pregnancy - as the expectant father?, going to the dr. visits?, in the delivery room?, being the first to hold the child? If a paternity test indicates you are NOT the father, will you end the relationship? If yes, will you end it because of the cheating or the existence of the child? From the other threads it seems some men take the position that "doubting" paternity is necessary in this day and age. How very sad for us all. If you read carefully the other threads, you will see that most guys who respond (myself included) consider the hypothetical pat test justification based on odds, i.e. purely rationally. The emerging consensus is that 1) it would be nice if hospitals did pat tests as a matter of policy; 2) absent that, most men probably wouldn't bother unless they had nagging actual doubts; not difficult to acquire in this age; and 3) the whole pat test thing is useful as a thought experiment and the results reveal that many women simply cannot stand the idea of being scrutinized on an impartial, technocratic basis. Things got out of control when the gang of apparently irrational female posters joined in and started to foam at the mouth with self-righteous anger, how that would be a dealbreaker etc. :sick: Gimme a break. Anyway, here are the answers to your questions: These are my specific questions for those who want a paternity test - Do you expect the test to confirm you're the father and view it as a mere confirmation process? (hard to predict future circumstance, I know) Yes and yes. How will you as the husband/bf manage the nine month pregnancy - as the expectant father?, going to the dr. visits?, in the delivery room?, being the first to hold the child? Yes - pretty involved throughout, but not paranoid about every little detail (billions of women have given birth, it'll be allright) If a paternity test indicates you are NOT the father, will you end the relationship? Yes, immediately. If yes, will you end it because of the cheating or the existence of the child? Because of the cheating, duh . The pregnancy with another dude's child merely compounds the betrayal. Too bad for the child, but they can raise it with the OM as they please. From the other threads it seems some men take the position that "doubting" paternity is necessary in this day and age. How very sad for us all I don't think it is "necessary", but it is probably a good idea to protect yourself. Nobody knowingly enters relationship expecting to be screwed over :rolleyes::rolleyes:, but it happens ALL the effin time. Edited March 9, 2010 by Mr White
Author txsilkysmoothe Posted March 9, 2010 Author Posted March 9, 2010 How will you as the husband/bf manage the nine month pregnancy - as the expectant father?, going to the dr. visits?, in the delivery room?, being the first to hold the child? Yes - pretty involved throughout, but not paranoid about every little detail (billions of women have given birth, it'll be allright) I was thinking more in the sense of would a man have such doubts that he would remain aloof until the paternity test confirms he is indeed the father. I like the idea of hospitals performing routine paternity testing. Thank you Mr. White
Taramere Posted March 9, 2010 Posted March 9, 2010 (edited) I like the idea of hospitals performing routine paternity testing. I can't say I do. It would result in medical staff having to get embroiled in people's private lives in a way that they probably don't feel they should have to. Hospital environments can be stressful enough places...with staff's health and safety often being placed at risk as a result of stressed out patients and families wanting information and not liking that information when they get it. Doctors, nurses and other patients just don't need hospitals to be routinely filled with Jerry Springer scenarios of couples screaming abuse at eachother because he's just discovered, as a result of the mandatory paternity testing, that he isn't the father. I suppose the results of such a mandatory test could be sent through the post, but I doubt many professionals would be happy to handle such a sensitive issue like that in such an impersonal manner. I like the idea of people not starting families with people they lack trust and faith in...but as that is clearly a pipe dream, I like the idea of couples deciding for themselves whether paternity testing is something that would be beneficial to their family. There's already more than enough state interference in people's lives. If some people are so ridiculous that they can't sort such issues out with their partners like reasonable adults, without the help of the state, then that's unfortunate for them. I don't see why every other adult should pay the price for their ineptitude by accepting governmental noses being forced into every aspect of their private lives. Edited March 9, 2010 by Taramere
MrNate Posted March 9, 2010 Posted March 9, 2010 If tests indicated that I was not the father, yes, I would leave, and yes, it would be because of the child and maybe suspicion of cheating. I'm not going to bear someone else's responsibility. My feelings about this situation or just as important as the woman's. I don't care what others think.
bayouboi Posted March 9, 2010 Posted March 9, 2010 If tests indicated that I was not the father, yes, I would leave, and yes, it would be because of the child and the realization of the cheating. I'm not going to bear someone else's responsibility. My feelings about this situation are just as important as the woman's. I don't care what others think. Tweaked a little but agreed & double agreed on the bolded part.
JohnnyBlaze Posted March 9, 2010 Posted March 9, 2010 1. Do you expect the test to confirm you're the father and view it as a mere confirmation process? (hard to predict future circumstance, I know) - No. If I'm asking for a pat test, it's because I'm having strong doubts that I'm the father. 2. How will you as the husband/bf manage the nine month pregnancy - as the expectant father?, going to the dr. visits?, in the delivery room?, being the first to hold the child? - I'll be the paranoid daddy, guaranteed. I'll be at every visit, read every book and web site, and watch every video on the subject. By the time the baby's born, I'll already be reading up on the college years, and (if it's a girl), getting my firearm license to intimidate any boys she may bring around 15 years from now. 3. If a paternity test indicates you are NOT the father, will you end the relationship? If yes, will you end it because of the cheating or the existence of the child? - Yes, because of the cheating. The existence of the child is only proof thereof.
Mr White Posted March 9, 2010 Posted March 9, 2010 I was thinking more in the sense of would a man have such doubts that he would remain aloof until the paternity test confirms he is indeed the father. I like the idea of hospitals performing routine paternity testing. Thank you Mr. White Well, everybody is "innocent until proven guilty" and this should also apply here, plus considering the small odds it would be just stupid to refrain from being supportive until "verification".
Author txsilkysmoothe Posted March 9, 2010 Author Posted March 9, 2010 Doctors, nurses and other patients just don't need hospitals to be routinely filled with Jerry Springer scenarios of couples screaming abuse at eachother because he's just discovered, as a result of the mandatory paternity testing, that he isn't the father. I suppose the results of such a mandatory test could be sent through the post, but I doubt many professionals would be happy to handle such a sensitive issue like that in such an impersonal manner. QUOTE] Thirty seconds of swabbing the mouths of baby, mother, and father (if present) are hardly comparable to a Jerry Springer show. I'm not suggesting nor would it be practical that the results would be immediately available and disclosed.
Mr White Posted March 9, 2010 Posted March 9, 2010 I can't say I do. It would result in medical staff having to get embroiled in people's private lives in a way that they probably don't feel they should have to. Hospital environments can be stressful enough places...with staff's health and safety often being placed at risk as a result of stressed out patients and families wanting information and not liking that information when they get it. Doctors, nurses and other patients just don't need hospitals to be routinely filled with Jerry Springer scenarios of couples screaming abuse at eachother because he's just discovered, as a result of the mandatory paternity testing, that he isn't the father. I suppose the results of such a mandatory test could be sent through the post, but I doubt many professionals would be happy to handle such a sensitive issue like that in such an impersonal manner. I like the idea of people not starting families with people they lack trust and faith in...but as that is clearly a pipe dream, I like the idea of couples deciding for themselves whether paternity testing is something that would be beneficial to their family. There's already more than enough state interference in people's lives. If some people are so ridiculous that they can't sort such issues out with their partners like reasonable adults, without the help of the state, then that's unfortunate for them. I don't see why every other adult should pay the price for their ineptitude by accepting governmental noses being forced into every aspect of their private lives. Perhaps, but doing it routinely would be much better than discovering it accidentally. There are some tests, done for different purposes, that can reveal mismatched/impossible parenthood by accident. Gleaning this kid of info without proper and formalized guidelines on how to handle it is arguably much more problematic than having a pat-test line on the document printouts with all the pre-natal and post-natal data, in a as-a-matter-of-factly way, much like all the vital signs data.... More importantly, women's knowledge that this is a routine practice will have a VERY powerful deterrent effect on trying to pull this kind of fraud in the rare instances it does actually occur, and it will make irrelevant any doubts men may have.
bayouboi Posted March 9, 2010 Posted March 9, 2010 txsilkysmoothe's point of making paternity tests mandatory at the hospital brought an interesting thought to my mind. We've heard of the fluke incidents (extremely low %) whereby the parents were given the wrong child to bring home. If the staff swabbed the baby once its with the parents for good and heading home only as a precautionary measure to ensure its their baby they're releasing to them, then the paternity issue could be revealed to the male without offending the female's sense of trust. *edit* Just read Mr White's response & think he's on the same lines here.
Taramere Posted March 9, 2010 Posted March 9, 2010 Perhaps, but doing it routinely would be much better than discovering it accidentally. There are some tests, done for different purposes, that can reveal mismatched/impossible parenthood by accident. Gleaning this kid of info without proper and formalized guidelines on how to handle it is arguably much more problematic than having a pat-test line on the document printouts with all the pre-natal and post-natal data, in a as-a-matter-of-factly way, much like all the vital signs data.... More importantly, women's knowledge that this is a routine practice will have a VERY powerful deterrent effect on trying to pull this kind of fraud in the rare instances it does actually occur, and it will make irrelevant any doubts men may have. No doubt this is a measure a lot of men would support vociferously, Until they or some of their friends started getting letters through the post with hospital stamps on them. Dear X. We have been notified by Miss Y, mother of baby Z born on (date) that you and she had sexual relations on (date) and that there is a possibility that you may be baby Z's father. In accordance with (legislative measures providing for mandatory routine paternity testing) you are required to attend ward 12 of Anyplace hospital on (date) in order to provide a DNA sample. .
Author txsilkysmoothe Posted March 9, 2010 Author Posted March 9, 2010 The intent would not be to identify "who" the father is nor locate a potential father and subject him to testing. The intent would be to simply confirm that the man who is present and participating as the father, the man who will be asked to sign the birth certificate as "father," is indeed the father.
Taramere Posted March 9, 2010 Posted March 9, 2010 The intent would not be to identify "who" the father is nor locate a potential father and subject him to testing. The intent would be to simply confirm that the man who is present and participating as the father, the man who will be asked to sign the birth certificate as "father," is indeed the father. What would be the justification for the authorities refusing to accept that the man who was presenting himself as the father, with confirmation from the baby's mother, was in fact the father? Or do you think it's okay for governments to introduce such measures without providing clear justification for them? It's hard to see why the state would need to satisfy itself that the parents weren't lying about who the child's biological father was.
threebyfate Posted March 9, 2010 Posted March 9, 2010 I can't say I do. It would result in medical staff having to get embroiled in people's private lives in a way that they probably don't feel they should have to. Hospital environments can be stressful enough places...with staff's health and safety often being placed at risk as a result of stressed out patients and families wanting information and not liking that information when they get it. Doctors, nurses and other patients just don't need hospitals to be routinely filled with Jerry Springer scenarios of couples screaming abuse at eachother because he's just discovered, as a result of the mandatory paternity testing, that he isn't the father. I suppose the results of such a mandatory test could be sent through the post, but I doubt many professionals would be happy to handle such a sensitive issue like that in such an impersonal manner. I like the idea of people not starting families with people they lack trust and faith in...but as that is clearly a pipe dream, I like the idea of couples deciding for themselves whether paternity testing is something that would be beneficial to their family. There's already more than enough state interference in people's lives. If some people are so ridiculous that they can't sort such issues out with their partners like reasonable adults, without the help of the state, then that's unfortunate for them. I don't see why every other adult should pay the price for their ineptitude by accepting governmental noses being forced into every aspect of their private lives.I couldn't agree more. There's a non-invasive DNA paternity test, available, which isn't necessary conclusive but has an approximate 75% accuracy. If it reads that men aren't the father, then you can force the issue of legal paternity test, as at the birth of the child. Jerry Springer style couples need to hash out doubts outside of the healthcare system, particularly in countries who have universal healthcare. The hell I, as a taxpayer, are going to fund this type of nuisance test. For that matter, if it was private insurance, the hell I'm going to up my premiums, based on Jerry Springer couples. Less government, more personal responsibility. If you distrust your partner, don't get married. If the circumstances warrant suspicion, like casual relationships, etc., demand a pat test but do it outside of the system.
Author txsilkysmoothe Posted March 9, 2010 Author Posted March 9, 2010 What would be the justification for the authorities refusing to accept that the man who was presenting himself as the father, with confirmation from the baby's mother, was in fact the father? Or do you think it's okay for governments to introduce such measures without providing clear justification for them? It's hard to see why the state would need to satisfy itself that the parents weren't lying about who the child's biological father was. Are you really not understanding this thread is about men who doubt paternity and seek a means of confirmation? As for government, their hands are already in it - they expect the man to sign the birth certificate as the legal father, whether he is or not, before the baby leaves the hospital.
threebyfate Posted March 9, 2010 Posted March 9, 2010 Are you really not understanding this thread is about men who doubt paternity and seek a means of confirmation? As for government, their hands are already in it - they expect the man to sign the birth certificate as the legal father, whether he is or not, before the baby leaves the hospital.No, men don't have to sign the birth certificate.
Taramere Posted March 9, 2010 Posted March 9, 2010 IJerry Springer style couples need to hash out doubts outside of the healthcare system, particularly in countries who have universal healthcare. The hell I, as a taxpayer, are going to fund this type of nuisance test. Quite. The issue of DNA testing to establish paternity was one that came up with great frequency when I was working in family law. Almost invariably, both parties would be funded by legal aid, which meant that the legal aid board (taxpayer funded) picked up the tab for the DNA test. Generally in the region of £200. I guess mandatory testing would be good news for anyone holding shares in the relevant pharmaceutical companies, though.
Mr White Posted March 9, 2010 Posted March 9, 2010 No doubt this is a measure a lot of men would support vociferously, Until they or some of their friends started getting letters through the post with hospital stamps on them. Dear X. We have been notified by Miss Y, mother of baby Z born on (date) that you and she had sexual relations on (date) and that there is a possibility that you may be baby Z's father. In accordance with (legislative measures providing for mandatory routine paternity testing) you are required to attend ward 12 of Anyplace hospital on (date) in order to provide a DNA sample. . Well, what's the problem with that? Much better than just leaving it to the woman to selectively decide whom to declare the father. You go there, do the test, if it is yours - you pay child support or marry, depending on the situation, if it is not - you are on your way...
FryFish Posted March 9, 2010 Posted March 9, 2010 If you distrust your partner, don't get married.How many times must it be explained to you that 3% is a large enough number that this issue isnt really about trusting your partner and more about covering your own ass before you get it?
Taramere Posted March 9, 2010 Posted March 9, 2010 Are you really not understanding this thread is about men who doubt paternity and seek a means of confirmation? I'm well aware that that's what it's about. What I'm addressing is the notion that the government should get embroiled in introducing "routine" measures whose real purpose is to enable those men to test out the paternity issue in a non-direct manner. Why should others have to pay for that? Let these couples thrash any doubts out between them...and meet the cost of paternity testing themselves.
threebyfate Posted March 9, 2010 Posted March 9, 2010 Quite. The issue of DNA testing to establish paternity was one that came up with great frequency when I was working in family law. Almost invariably, both parties would be funded by legal aid, which meant that the legal aid board (taxpayer funded) picked up the tab for the DNA test. Generally in the region of £200. I guess mandatory testing would be good news for anyone holding shares in the relevant pharmaceutical companies, though.Since the OP is an American citizen, I'm posting the American statistics for live births. Since 2000, there have been over 4M live births in the U.S. PER annum. People can do the math, themselves.
FryFish Posted March 9, 2010 Posted March 9, 2010 In the US we dont have universal healthcare so it is not an issue with tax payers having to cover it.
Stung Posted March 9, 2010 Posted March 9, 2010 I have no personal negative reaction to the notion of hospitals/insurance companies routinely performing 'identity' tests on newborns; for me it does not carry the feeling of personal slight and accusation that an unwarranted demand for the same from my husband would. However I can see how it could be difficult to implement, legally, and could be a problem for right-to-privacy issues with the government.
threebyfate Posted March 9, 2010 Posted March 9, 2010 In the US we dont have universal healthcare so it is not an issue with tax payers having to cover it.What do you suppose insurance premiums are based on? Do you suppose insurance companies throw out a random figure for funsies?
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