Els Posted March 7, 2010 Posted March 7, 2010 I really just find it appalling that people reduce those of the opposite sex into a mere number when it comes to deciding if their good enough for them or not. I cringe every time I see it in the forums here. I agree. It reeks of immaturity, and I honestly pity not only the OP's bro's current girl, but also the future '8' girl whom he marries. His mentality evidently shows that he's not ready at all for a marriage, no matter what he may think - I give him and Ms. 8 a year tops.
troggleputty Posted March 7, 2010 Posted March 7, 2010 wow sadandconfused, I think you are being way too harsh on your brother. Why do you perceive his gf, or FWB, or whatever she is, as the "victim" in the relationship? She's an adult, right? She's not incompetent, right? It sounds like she's an average-looking girl or slightly above, a "plain Jane," and she has to know where she stands with your bro. I mean he won't even allow her to call him her boyfriend, even after six months, and he doesn't call her his gf. Yet, she initiates sleepovers about 3x/week according to your brother. What this actually means is that the woman is consciously using sex as her "coin of the realm" to keep the relationship going. Maybe your brother is the best she can do. (I assume your bro. is better looking than a 6 or else he's just deluding himself as to being able to trade up.) In effect, it is the woman who is manipulating your brother to continue in what he claims is an unsatisfactory relationship. She caters to him in all ways, keeps her mouth shut, and gives him sex. So how is it that she, and not your brother, is the victim here, if either could really be called a "victim"? I noticed how an awful lot of people in this thread want to characterize the woman as being taken advantage of in some way, a victim, and your brother as a cad of some kind. That's clearly incorrect. She's chasing him (initiating contact, wanting to up the ante in the relationship, catering to him, etc.) not the other way around. He's a "prize" to her and she will do what she needs to, to claim that prize. Based on your brother's age (28) and the fact that this has been going on for six months, there's actually a pretty good likelihood that these two will end up getting married. If your brother really had the skillz to pull women significantly better than this current woman, he wouldn't have spent six precious months with her. That doesn't mean it's a certainty of course. Your bro. could get lucky and a supermodel could drop out of the sky and into his lap. But if that doesn't happen within six months, I see these two as getting married. And if that happens your bro. is going to wish he kept his mouth shut about his dissatisfaction with her appearance. I would just let it go if I were you and let their relationship play out. People do end up "settling" you know, even your brother might.
Johnny M Posted March 7, 2010 Posted March 7, 2010 If you brother is thinking this way and still keeps on dating this girl for 6 months than I think brother is not ready to get married at all. He's not dating - he's sleeping with her. There's a difference.
zebracolors Posted March 7, 2010 Posted March 7, 2010 I really just find it appalling that people reduce those of the opposite sex into a mere number when it comes to deciding if their good enough for them or not. I cringe every time I see it in the forums here. Going to agree with Phineas here. I have said before I just go by features I personally find attractive because what doesn't appeal to me, might appeal strongly to other women, and vice versa. No numbers here. And out of respect to the fact it's the brother of the OP, I'm not going to knock on him. He's her family. However like most here I strongly agree that he is in the wrong for leading her on, stringing her along whatever you want to call it. In fairness to the g/f maybe he should and break it off with her asap, and start to look for someone who better fits his "idea" of a wife...
Johnny M Posted March 7, 2010 Posted March 7, 2010 What this actually means is that the woman is consciously using sex as her "coin of the realm" to keep the relationship going. Maybe your brother is the best she can do. (I assume your bro. is better looking than a 6 or else he's just deluding himself as to being able to trade up.) In effect, it is the woman who is manipulating your brother to continue in what he claims is an unsatisfactory relationship. She caters to him in all ways, keeps her mouth shut, and gives him sex. This is an excellent post. The woman clearly knows what's going on (unless, of course, she is mentally retarded), yet she's actively pursuing OP's brother and is the driving force behind their "relationship". This begs the question: why is she doing it? And the answer is obvious. She thinks that she will somehow manage to manipulate the guy into becoming BF/GF, even though he clearly does not want to. This girl is anything but a victim. She thinks that she has found the man she wants and, as troggleputty so eloquently put it, is using sex as a "coin of the realm" to keep him attached and to prevent him from seeing other women, while she works on "changing" him. IMO, 'parasite' describes this woman far more accurately than 'victim'.
Tropic Posted March 7, 2010 Posted March 7, 2010 He's not dating - he's sleeping with her. There's a difference. I agree with this, she is just a FWB, specially if they never go out, she just goes to his place to sleep. The bad thing about these type of relationships is that someone always ends up wanting more. . . seems that is what is happening with the girl. The thing is, has he been clear with her about there being no future and where she stands? If he has not, and is trying to keep her by not telling her, then your brother is a fool.
Author SadandConfusedWA Posted March 7, 2010 Author Posted March 7, 2010 Troggleputty, WOW, your post is right on the money. My bro is not only VERY good looking (and much better than a 6) but he is a successful business owner that makes middle to high 6 figures annually and owns a huge house plus drives a kick ass car. Now, he IS somewhat immature, but by most women's standards he also IS the prize. His problems is that he lacks self confidence and he only ever goes out with women that approach him, and those are the women that not on par with him. Women that are very beautiful generally don't need to approach men first as there will be plenty of men approaching them. As for this girl, yes she has pushed herself into seeing him 3 days a week. He was only comfortable in spending a day per week with her and she would pretty much come to his house on Friday and then make excuses why she can't leave until Monday. He literally has to be mean and kick her out when he wants to go out with his friends on some Saturday nights. He is still with her because he is afraid that if he lets go, he won't be able to find anyone else (low self confidence is his biggest mental block). You are also right that he might end up marrying her. HUGE percentage of people settle so why not him. I also am appalled at the number of people that think that he is an a## just by reading this. He is actually a genuinely nice and intelligent guy. I hope he finds someone that he is 100% happy with. He has a lot to offer and should be with someone who has equally as much to offer.
zebracolors Posted March 7, 2010 Posted March 7, 2010 Troggleputty, WOW, your post is right on the money. My bro is not only VERY good looking (and much better than a 6) but he is a successful business owner that makes middle to high 6 figures annually and owns a huge house plus drives a kick ass car. Now, he IS somewhat immature, but by most women's standards he also IS the prize. His problems is that he lacks self confidence and he only ever goes out with women that approach him, and those are the women that not on par with him. Women that are very beautiful generally don't need to approach men first as there will be plenty of men approaching them. As for this girl, yes she has pushed herself into seeing him 3 days a week. He was only comfortable in spending a day per week with her and she would pretty much come to his house on Friday and then make excuses why she can't leave until Monday. He literally has to be mean and kick her out when he wants to go out with his friends on some Saturday nights. He is still with her because he is afraid that if he lets go, he won't be able to find anyone else (low self confidence is his biggest mental block). You are also right that he might end up marrying her. HUGE percentage of people settle so why not him. I also am appalled at the number of people that think that he is an a## just by reading this. He is actually a genuinely nice and intelligent guy. I hope he finds someone that he is 100% happy with. He has a lot to offer and should be with someone who has equally as much to offer. Heh, why didn't you say all this originally? Your first post seemed to paint the woman as a victim, and you didn't mention that your brother has low self confidence.
sweetjasmine Posted March 7, 2010 Posted March 7, 2010 As for this girl, yes she has pushed herself into seeing him 3 days a week. He was only comfortable in spending a day per week with her and she would pretty much come to his house on Friday and then make excuses why she can't leave until Monday. He literally has to be mean and kick her out when he wants to go out with his friends on some Saturday nights. He is still with her because he is afraid that if he lets go, he won't be able to find anyone else (low self confidence is his biggest mental block). You are also right that he might end up marrying her. HUGE percentage of people settle so why not him. I also am appalled at the number of people that think that he is an a## just by reading this. He is actually a genuinely nice and intelligent guy. I hope he finds someone that he is 100% happy with. He has a lot to offer and should be with someone who has equally as much to offer. So she's a doormat puppy dog and he's too spineless to end it? Ah, true love. That'll make for a very happy marriage with no resentment on either side.
txsilkysmoothe Posted March 7, 2010 Posted March 7, 2010 Wow! Op, thank you for sharing - this is enlightening. Do you believe the woman knows how your brother feels? She sounds like some of the female posters on LS who think they have a good start with a guy but wonder why things aren't progressing, think he is just not ready for a relationship, etc. In reality, he's exactly where he wants to be. It sounds like your brother has indicated through behavior that he isn't that interested in the woman and she refuses to accept that. Yes, useful information.
carhill Posted March 7, 2010 Posted March 7, 2010 Off-topic but I've never met a successful business owner, and know a fair amount personally, who have low self-confidence about anything. One doesn't get to that position, especially at a young age, without supreme self-confidence and a killer business instinct. So, rather than having low self confidence, I would opine that brother is merely lazy when it comes to women, being universally attractive, and merely chooses amongst what pursues him. A true equal, in both looks and success, will not pursue him, as she has men, successful men like himself, pursuing her. He will have to work diligently to gain her attention and affection. He evidently chooses not to do this. What he's doing works for him right now. Perhaps, someday, it will change. If he truly wishes to marry an 'equal', it will have to, IMO.
Mr White Posted March 7, 2010 Posted March 7, 2010 Off-topic but I've never met a successful business owner, and know a fair amount personally, who have low self-confidence about anything. One doesn't get to that position, especially at a young age, without supreme self-confidence and a killer business instinct. So, rather than having low self confidence, I would opine that brother is merely lazy when it comes to women, being universally attractive, and merely chooses amongst what pursues him. A true equal, in both looks and success, will not pursue him, as she has men, successful men like himself, pursuing her. He will have to work diligently to gain her attention and affection. He evidently chooses not to do this. What he's doing works for him right now. Perhaps, someday, it will change. If he truly wishes to marry an 'equal', it will have to, IMO. Very good summary. But I'd add one qualification: I have a huge problem with the idea of "pursuing and equal" woman. If she's the man's equal, then there should be no pursuing. But since of course that is never the case, I think that it is particularly smart of men to marry "down" (don't like the term , but it's accurate insofar it describes acceptable tradeoffs in terms of accomplishments and looks as long as they are counterbalanced with good character). This ensures greater likelihood of a loyal girl, and much less headaches, and a much higher likelihood of a happy, fulfilling relationship. (At least, I personally would never pursue any woman beyond basic courtship.) So, this guy is a dumbass for not realizing this. Someday he may end up with a woman "his equal", but the costs will still make his life miserable, and he'll be pining for the "sweet girl that really liked him" (whatever her motivations, that's a different story).
Author SadandConfusedWA Posted March 7, 2010 Author Posted March 7, 2010 Off-topic but I've never met a successful business owner, and know a fair amount personally, who have low self-confidence about anything. One doesn't get to that position, especially at a young age, without supreme self-confidence and a killer business instinct. Depends on the business. He doesn't have to have lots of face to face contact. Most of his business is done over the internet or the phone. Also people can be confident in their work/career and shy when it comes to romance. I admit though that the level of success he attained so early in life is the combination of some skill and a LOT of luck.
ADF Posted March 7, 2010 Posted March 7, 2010 Your brother is a jerk. I'm sorry to put that crudely, but he is. I am sure he has some good qualities as well. But he is a jerk. He is a shallow, deceitful opportunist who will, in the end, break this woman's heart. Unfortunately, he not all that unusual. Christ, what a mess.
Author SadandConfusedWA Posted March 7, 2010 Author Posted March 7, 2010 Heh, why didn't you say all this originally? Your first post seemed to paint the woman as a victim, and you didn't mention that your brother has low self confidence. Because I wanted to put the victim slant on my first post (while still preserving all the facts) and see if someone picked up on the fact that she is not really a victim. Sidenote: Nobody is ever a victim of anything as long as there is freedom of choice. Women that are stuck in relationships where they are treated badly by men, simply lack the guts to walk away.
Author SadandConfusedWA Posted March 7, 2010 Author Posted March 7, 2010 So she's a doormat puppy dog and he's too spineless to end it? Ah, true love. That'll make for a very happy marriage with no resentment on either side. Yep, pretty much. Nicely put.
sweetjasmine Posted March 7, 2010 Posted March 7, 2010 Because I wanted to put the victim slant on my first post (while still preserving all the facts) and see if someone picked up on the fact that she is not really a victim. Sidenote: Nobody is ever a victim of anything as long as there is freedom of choice. Women that are stuck in relationships where they are treated badly by men, simply lack the guts to walk away. That doesn't mean they're not victims. Victim does not equal "completely powerless to do anything." If someone is being regularly beaten by their spouse, they're still a victim of domestic abuse whether they leave or stay. So, yes, she's a victim of your brother's deceit in that he's using her even though he knows he won't ever want to marry her, even though it's up to her to grow a spine and leave.
ADF Posted March 7, 2010 Posted March 7, 2010 Sidenote: Nobody is ever a victim of anything as long as there is freedom of choice. Women that are stuck in relationships where they are treated badly by men, simply lack the guts to walk away. That's not true. It might be a comforting thought, especially for people who have never been in an abusive relationships. It might make them feel superior to those pathetic wretches who get beat up, robbed blind, or repeatedly cheated on by bad men. But the reality is more complicated than that. Men who chronically abuse women are smart. They know how to play mind games. Most importantly, they are good a spotting women with low self-esteem and use that to their advantage. If were as simple as having guts, it wouldn't be such a problem.
Author SadandConfusedWA Posted March 7, 2010 Author Posted March 7, 2010 Do you believe the woman knows how your brother feels? She sounds like some of the female posters on LS who think they have a good start with a guy but wonder why things aren't progressing, think he is just not ready for a relationship, etc. In reality, he's exactly where he wants to be. It sounds like your brother has indicated through behavior that he isn't that interested in the woman and she refuses to accept that. Yes, useful information. I believe that she has been given enough clues (especially the fact that he doesn't want to call her his gf and hasn't introduced her to his friends or family even though she asked plus his lack of keeping in contact). This did remind me of lots of female posters who seem to be on the other side of the similar situation and they keep making excuses for the men.
xpaperxcutx Posted March 7, 2010 Posted March 7, 2010 Would you bother to point out your brother's fault or just sit there idly and watch? I know it's probably none of your business since it's your brother's private life, but being a woman, I can't help but think that if he were my brother I make it a point to call out his behaviour. I'm just afraid karma's going to bite him.
TouchedByViolet Posted March 7, 2010 Posted March 7, 2010 Sounds like your brother has the power in the relationship and is using it for his personal benefit. This issue is not gender specific.
Author SadandConfusedWA Posted March 7, 2010 Author Posted March 7, 2010 That's not true. It might be a comforting thought, especially for people who have never been in an abusive relationships. It might make them feel superior to those pathetic wretches who get beat up, robbed blind, or repeatedly cheated on by bad men. But the reality is more complicated than that. Men who chronically abuse women are smart. They know how to play mind games. Most importantly, they are good a spotting women with low self-esteem and use that to their advantage. If were as simple as having guts, it wouldn't be such a problem. I am not talking about physical abuse. That is different and not a subject I know much about so I would like to leave it out. You can say that if a woman has a low self-esteem and is being treated badly by men, then it's up to her to fix her self-esteem. As for cheating, if a woman stays after discovering infidelity, she is no longer a victim if it happens again.
sweetjasmine Posted March 7, 2010 Posted March 7, 2010 I am not talking about physical abuse. That is different and not a subject I know much about so I would like to leave it out. You can say that if a woman has a low self-esteem and is being treated badly by men, then it's up to her to fix her self-esteem. As for cheating, if a woman stays after discovering infidelity, she is no longer a victim if it happens again. No, she's still a victim, even if she refuses to do anything about it. Victim doesn't mean "I can't do anything at all about this situation and have no power to fix it."
carhill Posted March 7, 2010 Posted March 7, 2010 A relationship of convenience, within which there are no victims and no perpetrators. It would be interesting to be his 'girl's' girlfriend and hear what she says about him. He might be surprised. OP, the men I spoke of earlier started out at ages as young or younger than your brother, found 'equals' because of their confidence in themselves, even if only starting out, and most (not all) have been married for 20-30 years. The overriding commonality in those marriages is that the couple is a true team, each with their own personal strengths, combining to make the team stronger than any of its parts. Some women are actively involved in the businesses, others are not. I hope your brother parlays his skill and luck into such a life dynamic.
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