Spin-Off From "Thrown Under The Bus"

[pureinheart]

Many interesting topics were brought up in this particular thread...this is a question that I have not settled yet in my own mind and would appreciate greater imput and didnot want to thread jack Jennie's thread.

 

I have always wavered in this area, meaning I've gone back and forth concerning when am I being judgmental (and when are others being judgmental) and when should we judge/make an observation? I am seriously asking this question.

 

OK, I hope I word this right (am learning how to "say it right", so please bare with me).

 

This is concerning various forum topics, BBNB brought up an excellent point and how they will be labeled, I took from her post that they are mainly negative labels.

 

Should we use labels, and if so how can I do this without putting another on the defensive...labels are meant as a description as Just Joe pointed out and this is true.

 

If we are posting in the correct forum, is there a way for the OP, meaning the opposite of our situation, in this case being OM/OW/BS/WS, to not take offense when a particular situation is descriptive of ones own situation?

 

I have been very surprized to learn (and I hope I didn't read anything into certain posts that weren't there) that the BS feel almost the same as the OW do. Some of the BS's feel they are being maligned by the OW. Personally I have not read any maligning, just a description of ones own situation.

 

This may be really bad, although having been on all sides, I can see all sides (to a degree, only based on my experiences)...so there are times that I agree with all of you...I feel very torn at times, almost to the point of feeling like a hypocrit.

 

Does anyone else feel this way?

 

I know there are a lot of topics/questions, although I have been pondering these for quite sometime now and didn't post because I didn't want them worded wrong as to where they would be taken wrong.

Edited March 5, 2010 by pureinheart

[wheelwright]

I have always wavered in this area, meaning I've gone back and forth concerning when am I being judgmental (and when are others being judgmental) and when should we judge/make an observation? I am seriously asking this question.

 

Should we use labels, and if so how can I do this without putting another on the defensive...labels are meant as a description as Just Joe pointed out and this is true.

 

If we are posting in the correct forum, is there a way for the OP, meaning the opposite of our situation, in this case being OM/OW/BS/WS, to not take offense when a particular situation is descriptive of ones own situation?

 

Does anyone else feel this way?

 

/QUOTE]

 

Words carry connotations. These are sometimes widely shared, sometimes less so, so there is always going to be negotiation in communication - especially between people of differing viewpoints. Labels are not just labels, they carry meaning, and that involves values.

 

Some words or labels are more neutral, and can be helpfully employed while not pleasing everyone.

 

Where posters are not being deliberately antagonistic, it is more important to consider the tone of a post - to me, sometimes people are putting out their heartfelt views, and inferences about judgement are inevitably made. Mostly this is done very respectfully, with a genuine interest, albeit sometimes aghast.

 

Others are trolls.

 

Or somewhere between trolls and heartfelt, which is a valuable contribution to discussion.

 

By saying what we ourselves feel, it comes across less as judgement, more as expression.

 

By saying another person is rubbish in some way people judge.

 

The best posters here seem to do the former, IMHO!

Edited March 6, 2010 by wheelwright
grammar!

[jennie-jennie]

I remember when I complained to my best friend about my alcoholic boyfriend. It got her going as well, saying stuff about him. I felt very uncomfortable with this. It was one thing for me to complain about him - I knew I loved him, a completely other thing to hear her do it. It made me go into protective mode, not able to share with her the difficulties I was facing.

[pureinheart]

Words carry connotations. These are sometimes widely shared, sometimes less so, so there is always going to be negotiation in communication - especially between people of differing viewpoints. Labels are not just labels, they carry meaning, and that involves values.

 

Some words or labels are more neutral, and can be helpfully employed while not pleasing everyone.

 

Where posters are not being deliberately antagonistic, it is more important to consider the tone of a post - to me, sometimes people are putting out their heartfelt views, and inferences about judgement are inevitably made. Mostly this is done very respectfully, with a genuine interest, albeit sometimes aghast.

 

Others are trolls.

 

Or somewhere between trolls and heartfelt, which is a valuable contribution to discussion.

 

By saying what we ourselves feel, it comes across less as judgement, more as expression.

 

By saying another person is rubbish in some way people judge.

 

The best posters here seem to do the former, IMHO!

 

I have deleted many of my own posts after reading them, thinking the tone was not cool...this has mostly been in response to someone else.

 

There has always been a freedom to "vent" and it is greatly appreciated as I dealt with some very onery people (exDM and his family). I was validated in this forum when first dealing with exDM in the form of letting me know what the truth really was, this was BS's, OM and OW.

 

This is an excellent reply WW, well organized and well put. You have given me much food for thought...

[pureinheart]

I remember when I complained to my best friend about my alcoholic boyfriend. It got her going as well, saying stuff about him. I felt very uncomfortable with this. It was one thing for me to complain about him - I knew I loved him, a completely other thing to hear her do it. It made me go into protective mode, not able to share with her the difficulties I was facing.

 

It is this very reason that you communicated that causes me to be careful when my friends are upset with their SO's or anyone for that matter.

 

First off I need to know the entire situation so that a reasonable, objective answer, reaction can be given. Now if the individual is extremely abusive I will try to get them to be councelled by a professional.

 

I learned this from my daughter...her H was abusive and they were just not good for each other. I liked him, although not with her, it was difficult to be objective because she is my daughter, you know? So everytime they fought I would communicate my dissatisfaction and sure enough they would be back together...my siding with her threw her right back.

 

I really wish they could have worked because I really did love him and his family...

[Spark1111]

Yes, labels do have connotations, based on value judgements. I too, look to see the tone of the post; is it fair, is it expressed to enlighten, inform; does it ring true from the poster's perception and/or convictions?

 

I also, having been on a two year recovery journey myself, try to percieve the post in the timeframe it is offered.

 

If it is someone who has just discovered a spouse's infidelity, or an OW/OM reeling from a break up, well I will have more patience for the pain of that poster and whatever they hurl onto these boards.

 

Ultimately, it is all about forgiveness and healing, IMHO.

[White Flower]

Yes, labels do have connotations, based on value judgements. I too, look to see the tone of the post; is it fair, is it expressed to enlighten, inform; does it ring true from the poster's perception and/or convictions?

 

I also, having been on a two year recovery journey myself, try to percieve the post in the timeframe it is offered.

 

If it is someone who has just discovered a spouse's infidelity, or an OW/OM reeling from a break up, well I will have more patience for the pain of that poster and whatever they hurl onto these boards.

 

Ultimately, it is all about forgiveness and healing, IMHO.

And I agree that you always seem to be exactly as you describe yourself.

 

The problem I have on this issue is when the OW/OM is reeling from that pain but then get BS (in the OW/OM support forum no less) who tell us we deserve what we get when we're in need of support. If they could truly offer advice, experience, and even solace without judgment I would have no problem with their presence in a support forum for us.

 

I will admit that in the thread of which this one is a spin-off I posted feelings I had while suffering from a fever. After reading my posts later I knew it was my fever that was to blame but I didn't apologize for it because fever or no fever those were my feelings at the time. Some posters even noted that I seemed to have changed my tone (and I did) which makes me a little uncomfortable at this time but again I chose to post while under the influence of antibiotics.

 

So sometimes, however rarely, we can become more passionate in our posts due to other influences. I just don't know what to say about people who have no excuse and continue to judge and post with the intention of hurting people.

[califnan]

Hi Pure .. I think good counseling is when you are trying to push the individual forward or into a diff perspective .. The good ones on here (such as you) - also lend the individual empathy and support .. Hanging out on a relationship forum to act like Judge Judy - is when people try to beat down an individual for their past and present ..

[pureinheart]

And I agree that you always seem to be exactly as you describe yourself.

 

The problem I have on this issue is when the OW/OM is reeling from that pain but then get BS (in the OW/OM support forum no less) who tell us we deserve what we get when we're in need of support. If they could truly offer advice, experience, and even solace without judgment I would have no problem with their presence in a support forum for us.

 

I will admit that in the thread of which this one is a spin-off I posted feelings I had while suffering from a fever. After reading my posts later I knew it was my fever that was to blame but I didn't apologize for it because fever or no fever those were my feelings at the time. Some posters even noted that I seemed to have changed my tone (and I did) which makes me a little uncomfortable at this time but again I chose to post while under the influence of antibiotics.

 

So sometimes, however rarely, we can become more passionate in our posts due to other influences. I just don't know what to say about people who have no excuse and continue to judge and post with the intention of hurting people.

 

It is interesting that you say that about the antibiotics, they cause me to be irritable at times (they hype me up, like a bad caffine high). Being hyperthryroid does it too. Fevers and infections also give me a not so normal attitude also, meaning my thinking is different/altered.

 

The thread that this came from though, at which I followed, stick with the same thought/wording that you (WF) said nothing out of line...I think you are, all of us are allowed (or should be) to say what we need to concerning our own situations. That is what some of the forums are meant for...to vent.

 

I really believe that if we are able to release it "here", when were "there" things come out much better.

[pureinheart]

Yes, labels do have connotations, based on value judgements. I too, look to see the tone of the post; is it fair, is it expressed to enlighten, inform; does it ring true from the poster's perception and/or convictions?

 

I also, having been on a two year recovery journey myself, try to percieve the post in the timeframe it is offered.

 

If it is someone who has just discovered a spouse's infidelity, or an OW/OM reeling from a break up, well I will have more patience for the pain of that poster and whatever they hurl onto these boards.

 

Ultimately, it is all about forgiveness and healing, IMHO.

 

Most definitely Spark . Forgiveness releases the person(s) that wronged us, it is mainly for the forgiver though as all of that negative stuff is running rampant and can cause physical illness.

 

You are so right about the newness of whatever the situation is...at first the anger can be so great that insults whirl everywhere, and I never take any personal situation personal because at that point it's not about me, it's about the hurt.

 

To me, any personal situations are rarely meant for the entire group...and even if there is an underlying subconscience distaste/dislike for a particular party/group, I still am not able to take it personal because most of the time I know who I am...lol...it seems as if I am in a "lifetime recovery program"...so know that you are doing excellent Spark

[pureinheart]

Hi Pure .. I think good counseling is when you are trying to push the individual forward or into a diff perspective .. The good ones on here (such as you) - also lend the individual empathy and support .. Hanging out on a relationship forum to act like Judge Judy - is when people try to beat down an individual for their past and present ..[/QUOTE]

 

LOL...ROFL...Judge Judy is hard core! My mother used to do this to me all of the time, make jokes about my D's, cut me down a lot...I never told her why the D's took place because she lacked understanding. It is such a shame because she had so many good things going for her, she just shut down at some point in her life and was indifferent to most everyone.

 

Concerning my belief "system", I made a conscience decision to break the generational garbage and was angry that this task was passed to me, although one time I asked/yelled to God, "why me????" God said, "why not you." So I shut up and basically laid my life down for my kids so that the next generations would be better.

 

It's interesting, the song "Thank you, for giving to the Lord", I think that's the name, anyway, that song is being sung right now...and that's what it's about IMO. When we are here to "help" someone we are giving life to that person...hope to go on another day...which is what you do "C"...thank you so much for finding LS!

[califnan]

Most definitely Spark . Forgiveness

 

To me, any personal situations are rarely meant for the entire group...and even if there is an underlying subconscience distaste/dislike for a particular party/group, I still am not able to take it personal because most of the time I know who I am...lol...it seems as if I am in a "lifetime recovery program"...so know that you are doing excellent Spark

 

 

-----------------------

 

Yes Pure, Most of us are in a "lifetime recovery program" .. Once when a few of us visited a dear friend who was undergoing phyciatric (she told me her problems were a result of her disfunctional family).. My wise bible study teacher said to me: Many feel that they have come from disfunctional families or childhoods, but God gives us revelations and healing with events that happen in our lives and these revelations and healing can take until the rest of our lives .. I have received many revelations and healing for diff aspects of my life... What the bible study teacher and I are trying to say additionally, is that the natural way may take until the end of one's life, and the radical way of "counseling" may be harder and faster.. But to my mind, paid counseling is unnecessary ..

[califnan]

Hi Pure .. I think

 

LOL...ROFL...Judge Judy is hard core! My mother used to do this to me all of the time, make jokes about my D's, cut me down a lot...I never told her why the D's took place because she lacked understanding. It is such a shame because she had so many good things going for her, she just shut down at some point in her life and was indifferent to most everyone.

 

-----------------

 

When my mother found out that my husband had left me, she called me and with great hurt and sympathy .. I was in bed when, at another time - she started thinking about it and laced into me saying that there were things I did, like spending too much money .. When I finally got fed up from her radical judging, I reminded her of the affairs that she had had during her marriage, and that dad didn't leave her (I had no affairs, ever).... She became very angry and couldn't handle it .. - and angrily felt that I was being disrespectful .. Ten years later, my husband was dying of leukemia, my mother sent him a card telling him how greatful she was that he was being well cared for (by his new wife) - THIS Got me more than anything she ever did .. And completely uncalled for.. I was a stay at home wife, cooked like a fiend - took care of my family, etc .. She had no way of knowing If he was being well cared for .. she just Got Loose with a pen and card and I stupidly had furnished her with the address. . After my husband died, my mother took an Innocent pretty little Hallmark card and told me she had no sympathy for me because I never gave her sympathy when her sister died.. Later that year, Judge Judy's husband died (my father) .. he died six months after my husband ..

[norajane]

I learned this from my daughter...her H was abusive and they were just not good for each other. I liked him, although not with her, it was difficult to be objective because she is my daughter, you know? So everytime they fought I would communicate my dissatisfaction and sure enough they would be back together...my siding with her threw her right back.

 

Many of us see these affairs as being abusive. To the OW/OM and to the BS. So it's hard not to judge the abuser. And sometimes it's hard not to judge the abused for either putting themselves in and keeping themselves in that abusive mess, or for continuing to get deeper into it. None of us are anything but human, so expecting perfect compassion from an internet board is unrealistic.

[OWoman]

Many of us see these affairs as being abusive. To the OW/OM and to the BS. So it's hard not to judge the abuser.

 

Some times the BS is the abuser, and the A is a healthy ego response in recovery from the abuse.

[pureinheart]

Many of us see these affairs as being abusive. To the OW/OM and to the BS. So it's hard not to judge the abuser. And sometimes it's hard not to judge the abused for either putting themselves in and keeping themselves in that abusive mess, or for continuing to get deeper into it. None of us are anything but human, so expecting perfect compassion from an internet board is unrealistic.

 

I laughed, not at your reply, although what is in bold...this is a very "realistic" statement.

 

NJ, you have always, from what I have read, spoken the truth "in love", I have never sensed a slant...you say it straight up.

 

Hey, if a poster is stating that they are in an abusive situation, the reaction/response should be to get out. IMO that's not being judgmental..it is judging/making observations based on what is said.

[pureinheart]

Hi Pure .. I think

 

LOL...ROFL...Judge Judy is hard core! My mother used to do this to me all of the time, make jokes about my D's, cut me down a lot...I never told her why the D's took place because she lacked understanding. It is such a shame because she had so many good things going for her, she just shut down at some point in her life and was indifferent to most everyone.

 

-----------------

 

When my mother found out that my husband had left me, she called me and with great hurt and sympathy .. I was in bed when, at another time - she started thinking about it and laced into me saying that there were things I did, like spending too much money .. When I finally got fed up from her radical judging, I reminded her of the affairs that she had had during her marriage, and that dad didn't leave her (I had no affairs, ever).... She became very angry and couldn't handle it .. - and angrily felt that I was being disrespectful .. Ten years later, my husband was dying of leukemia, my mother sent him a card telling him how greatful she was that he was being well cared for (by his new wife) - THIS Got me more than anything she ever did .. And completely uncalled for.. I was a stay at home wife, cooked like a fiend - took care of my family, etc .. She had no way of knowing If he was being well cared for .. she just Got Loose with a pen and card and I stupidly had furnished her with the address. . After my husband died, my mother took an Innocent pretty little Hallmark card and told me she had no sympathy for me because I never gave her sympathy when her sister died.. Later that year, Judge Judy's husband died (my father) .. he died six months after my husband ..

 

Wow, sounds like deep rooted issues, somewhat like my mother...a tit for tat type deal on your mothers part.

 

Her sending a card to his new W sounds almost like a way to get back at you...that is real weird now that I think about it. I am still in contact with one of my mothers in law, although she is not like what you described, she accepts people for who and what they are and likes most everyone ESPECIALLY her OWN children!

 

I try to be objective where my kids are concerned, although they are MY kids and will always be a priority. Man, I am sooo sorry you had to go through that...first your H, then your own mother turns on you????

 

(((((((huggss)))))) That was just very cruel, the whole thing...

[pureinheart]

Some times the BS is the abuser, and the A is a healthy ego response in recovery from the abuse.

 

Interesting as abuse has no gender, rhyme nor reason. There have been certain profiles/patterns established, although fact is, anyone is capable.

 

In the case of the BS being the abuser I would not refer to him/her as a betrayed spouse, but the one who betrays...this is just my opinion based on abuse being the deal breaker for me.

 

There was an ability to forgive my spouse being with another, I just could never deal with being abused, that is what causes me to be done. Now if the abuse is simultaneous with the A, well .....

[califnan]

 

Wow, sounds like deep rooted issues, somewhat like my mother...a tit for tat type deal on your mothers part.

 

Her sending a card to his new W sounds almost like a way to get back at you...that is real weird now that I think about it. I am still in contact with one of my mothers in law, although she is not like what you described, she accepts people for who and what they are and likes most everyone ESPECIALLY her OWN children!

 

I try to be objective where my kids are concerned, although they are MY kids and will always be a priority. Man, I am sooo sorry you had to go through that...first your H, then your own mother turns on you????

 

(((((((huggss)))))) That was just very cruel, the whole thing...

 

She sent my husband the card as I had told her how sick he was .. After I started thinking about it - I think I realized that she was just trying to makeup to my husband for anything she did during our marriage.. i.e. she would send poisen pen letters to me from time to time when my husband bent her out of shape .. She was very sensitive and he was a teasing fescious .. She threw in the part about him being well cared for for some unknown reason - and not even knowing, maybe it was just something to say, I don't know.. She was telling me about what she had written, after he died - I was terribly upset - it was as if she was telling him, that everything he did - with ending our marriage, was for the best ..

 

I'm not objective when it comes to my sons.. I will advise them when I think they are being unfair to someone .. But if someone is taking advantage of them - I am ferocious ... ha

 

To let you know what page my mother is on: To this day she hates Nancy Reagan .. because she thinks Nancy pushed for the long coast to coast funeral, memorial, remembrance of Ronald when he died - because it disrupted my mother's TV programs for too long ... ha

[pureinheart]

 

She sent my husband the card as I had told her how sick he was .. After I started thinking about it - I think I realized that she was just trying to makeup to my husband for anything she did during our marriage.. i.e. she would send poisen pen letters to me from time to time when my husband bent her out of shape .. She was very sensitive and he was a teasing fescious .. She threw in the part about him being well cared for for some unknown reason - and not even knowing, maybe it was just something to say, I don't know.. She was telling me about what she had written, after he died - I was terribly upset - it was as if she was telling him, that everything he did - with ending our marriage, was for the best ..

 

I'm not objective when it comes to my sons.. I will advise them when I think they are being unfair to someone .. But if someone is taking advantage of them - I am ferocious ... ha

 

To let you know what page my mother is on: To this day she hates Nancy Reagan .. because she thinks Nancy pushed for the long coast to coast funeral, memorial, remembrance of Ronald when he died - because it disrupted my mother's TV programs for too long ... ha

 

 

You have got to be kidding me...very serious question, not sarcastic at all...is she on meds? I ask this because her perception sounds distorted like my mothers was. Also my mother was addicted to the tv and I would have heard the same thing.

 

The doctors were her "gods", in fact it was a big family joke because my stepdads nephew was one of the "heads" of a large HMO facility and we used to call him "doctor god" because my mom practically bowed at his feet and to know my mother, she bowed to no one...lol.

 

Anyway she took every pill she was given, and there were a lot...get this...they had her on Prozac for over 10 yrs and many other meds and just like that decided to change all of her meds including the Prozac...it is a known fact you must ween off of that one, but they stopped her cold turkey, I thought that was rather odd. I didn't understand it at the time, although she must have been going through withdrawls.

[califnan]

 

 

You have got to be kidding me...very serious question, not sarcastic at all...is she on meds? I ask this because her perception sounds distorted like my mothers was. Also my mother was addicted to the tv and I would have heard the same thing.

 

The doctors were her "gods", in fact it was a big family joke because my stepdads nephew was one of the "heads" of a large HMO facility and we used to call him "doctor god" because my mom practically bowed at his feet and to know my mother, she bowed to no one...lol.

 

Anyway she took every pill she was given, and there were a lot...get this...they had her on Prozac for over 10 yrs and many other meds and just like that decided to change all of her meds including the Prozac...it is a known fact you must ween off of that one, but they stopped her cold turkey, I thought that was rather odd. I didn't understand it at the time, although she must have been going through withdrawls.

 

-----------------------

 

No.. I pride myself that I don't even go to the doctor .. or to fall into that Trap of meds .. My mother has also weaned herself of everything doctors have wanted to give her, years ago .. I think one of the reasons why "healthcare" is in the shape that it is in is because of people seeking medical treatment for every little thing, then the irresponsible doctors giving unnecessary prescriptions.. drugs lead to more drugs and more illnesses.. and then doctors & patients also with the "checkups" .. I have known people who are again capped on by their doctors to use the checkup to give out unnecessary meds, etc etc.

 

My parents retired in their early 40's because of their early investing in real estate.. I think it caused my mother to pamper herself, and thinking she was the only person in the world .. and not driving and getting out much ..

[White Flower]

It is interesting that you say that about the antibiotics, they cause me to be irritable at times (they hype me up, like a bad caffine high). Being hyperthryroid does it too. Fevers and infections also give me a not so normal attitude also, meaning my thinking is different/altered.

 

The thread that this came from though, at which I followed, stick with the same thought/wording that you (WF) said nothing out of line...I think you are, all of us are allowed (or should be) to say what we need to concerning our own situations. That is what some of the forums are meant for...to vent.

 

I really believe that if we are able to release it "here", when were "there" things come out much better.

Very true. This should be a place where we can express our frustrations and get support without having every single word be miscontrued or misrepresented. There were several posts I made on that thread that were torn apart sentence by sentence as if I didn't know what I posted in the first place. Every line judged on its own suggestions without looking at the whole post or thread or even subject. Some posters (who aren't even there to support by the way) just feel the need to interject their own ideas as they foreshadow their circumstance onto our experience.

[jennie-jennie]

Very true. This should be a place where we can express our frustrations and get support without having every single word be miscontrued or misrepresented. There were several posts I made on that thread that were torn apart sentence by sentence as if I didn't know what I posted in the first place. Every line judged on its own suggestions without looking at the whole post or thread or even subject. Some posters (who aren't even there to support by the way) just feel the need to interject their own ideas as they foreshadow their circumstance onto our experience.

 

I agree with Pure, WF, you said nothing out of line on that other thread. I even reported some of the posts because I felt like that thread had turned into a "bash-WF-thread". I was saddened to see that.