The fear of saying no to a woman

[shadowplay]

Aligning with the differences in hating styles, men fear saying no to a woman simply because she will hate him, and only him, and f*ck one of his buddies just for sport, because, obviously, she doesn't hate the entire male gender.

 

Got that one from real life, only this past weekend. Women love to talk to me

 

I have no idea what you just wrote, but I'd like to hear it further explained.

[donnamaybe]

Aligning with the differences in hating styles, men fear saying no to a woman simply because she will hate him, and only him, and f*ck one of his buddies just for sport, because, obviously, she doesn't hate the entire male gender.

 

Got that one from real life, only this past weekend. Women love to talk to me

 

Where do these horrible women the men you know are finding come from? And why in the world would they be with them?

[shadowplay]

Aligning with the differences in hating styles, men fear saying no to a woman simply because she will hate him, and only him, and f*ck one of his buddies just for sport, because, obviously, she doesn't hate the entire male gender.

 

Got that one from real life, only this past weekend. Women love to talk to me

 

OK, if I'm reading correctly your post can basically summed up as there are arseholes in the world. What else is new?

[donnamaybe]

OK, if I'm reading correctly your post can basically summed up as there are arseholes in the world. What else is new?

 

And is if there aren't infantile men who do spiteful things as well.

[shadowplay]

And is if there aren't infantile men who do spiteful things as well.

 

Yeah, I could tell you about some woman who was routinely beat up by her boyfriend. What does this prove? Nothing, aside from the fact that one guy is a dick.

[Taramere]

I would be speculating my response to your question because for myself I love women & come here to get both perspectives. Off the top of my head I enjoy female posters such as you (I never see you gender bash & you approach topics with a healthy mix of reason and compassion) and Lizzie60 (I may not like that she relishes being an OW, but that woman tells it like it is and she has a solid grasp on the way the male mind works) just to name a couple.

 

Anyhow, back to your question, I would assume they vent not with the idea that the women will accept their views, but to reach out to other males dealing with the same emotions for acceptance. There may even be an element of enjoyment from evoking the negative responses from the susceptible females as a way of "sticking it to them". But again, that would be speculation on my part, because I love women!

 

Thanks for the compliment. I think it's healthy to communicate with both genders and get a range of responses and perspectives.

 

Re the second paragraph...hopefully a site like this can provide more of a halfway house between "stfu and stop whining" and "preach it brutha." I think that's part of its intention: To provide something that other sites don't or won't provide. That is, a place where men as well as women can discuss emotional matters without being sneered at.

 

It's a tall order, though. Especially as this is a site that frequently attracts invasions from other sites. There are definitely men out there who are threatened by the notion of other men talking to/being on friendly terms with women. I'm not sure why that is, or what they think is liable to happen.

[carhill]

I have no idea what you just wrote, but I'd like to hear it further explained.

Sure.... women hate with specificity, whether it be boyfriends, men who hit on them in public, husbands, whatever. They get together, here and IRL, bitch about those specific guys (which can become quite a large group over time) and that is the extent of it. Men go to war. We hate globally. How do you think we can kill people we don't even know? Our brains just work differently.

 

In example, wife hated husband for his actions in their M. Her hate was manifested in and was the impetus for an extra-marital relationship with a personal friend (not me). She didn't hate globally. She hated with specificity, though I'm still unclear about the true feelings regarding the friend. He may have just been a tool to show the hate for H. Hard to know with women. I've seen multiple occurrences of this with different female friends, both married and unmarried, over the years.

 

For myself, I accept that Wog's life experiences have forged his perspective and I accept it as his perspective and not representative of my own, just as I do when women make horrific statements (specifically or in general) about men. At this point, on this forum, he could modify his posts to limit the 'hate' to specific women and it likely wouldn't affect the perception of others who know him (here) and have formed their opinion of him. I do admire him, even when personally attacked, for not rebutting in kind. He's a better man than I

[shadowplay]

At this point, on this forum, he could modify his posts to limit the 'hate' to specific women and it likely wouldn't affect the perception of others who know him (here) and have formed their opinion of him.

 

I disagree with this. I think most of us would be pleasantly surprised if Woggle changed his attitudes to be more specific.

 

Sure.... women hate with specificity, whether it be boyfriends, men who hit on them in public, husbands, whatever. They get together, here and IRL, bitch about those specific guys (which can become quite a large group over time) and that is the extent of it. Men go to war. We hate globally. How do you think we can kill people we don't even know? Our brains just work differently.

 

Don't you agree that global hatred is often more dangerous than specific hatred?

 

Which is the more destructive approach?

 

Woman has abusive husband which leads to her hating him and retaliating against him. She may also hate other men who show strong signs of abuse toward women.

 

Man has abusive wife which leads to him not only hating his wife but all women and retaliating against the gender as a whole, as he sees it.

 

In one case the hatred and damage is more contained. In the latter case, the man is potentially hurting himself and others (outside of his wife). He is hurting himself by limiting his ability to find a healthy relationship with a woman because of his toxic attitude. He may also be hurting other innocent women by mistreating them to even the score or because he thinks it's what they want.

 

For myself, I accept that Wog's life experiences have forged his perspective and I accept it as his perspective and not representative of my own, just as I do when women make horrific statements (specifically or in general) about men. At this point, on this forum, he could modify his posts to limit the 'hate' to specific women and it likely wouldn't affect the perception of others who know him (here) and have formed their opinion of him. I do admire him, even when personally attacked, for not rebutting in kind. He's a better man than I

Regardless of the life experiences that formed it, I have trouble respecting a perspective when it's damaging and destructive (either to the individual or others, or both). I may understand where it comes from, but that doesn't mean I think it's OK to indulge. Edited March 5, 2010 by shadowplay

[bayouboi]

Yep, these elusive threads seem to be mysteriously viewable to just a few posters and nobody else on LS. I and other posters have asked for links whenever they're mentioned and nobody has ever been able to produce them. The mystery continues.

 

Not at all. I will try and be more clear about the 2nd part of my post that you ignored. What I mean to say is you specifically are not worth my time or effort to do any footwork to convince you of anything. It's not like it would change your mind to see the links, anyway.

[carhill]

Don't you agree that global hatred is often more dangerous than specific hatred?

 

Which is the more destructive approach?

 

The thread is about men having fear of saying no to women, not about specific or global hatred. The example I outlined above, taken from real life (and spoken to my ear) outlines one impetus of a specific fear men can have for saying no. I won't go into more detail in the example since it would be personal and paint the woman in question in less than a flattering light. For men, especially men in a committed marriage, there is a clear and present fear of their wife and mother of their children unilaterally taking up with another man and abandoning the family and devastating his life's work in the process, even as the betrayer of his trust and devotion.

 

I will say that, for myself, it is healthier, if hating, to do it specifically, and you'll see that in my postings here, as well as in real life. I take people to task as individuals. I generalize from experience when offering advice *sometimes*. I think the key is applying that advice with specificity, across gender lines. Perhaps that is some of the frustration which is felt wrt Wog's perspective, in that he rarely takes men to task for their hurtful behaviors. IDK. Regardless, it's off-topic. Fear the 'alert button'

[donnamaybe]

Not at all. I will try and be more clear about the 2nd part of my post that you ignored. What I mean to say is you specifically are not worth my time or effort to do any footwork to convince you of anything. It's not like it would change your mind to see the links, anyway.

 

Oh, just face it. You cannot provide the links to these elusive threads because they just don't exist. If you can't prove it, it just ain't so and we all know it.

[donnamaybe]

Yeah, I could tell you about some woman who was routinely beat up by her boyfriend. What does this prove? Nothing, aside from the fact that one guy is a dick.

 

Well, come on Shadow. You MUST start a thread about how all women need to protect themselves against abusive men by purchasing a gun, some mace, and a set of brass knuckles.

[shadowplay]

Not at all. I will try and be more clear about the 2nd part of my post that you ignored. What I mean to say is you specifically are not worth my time or effort to do any footwork to convince you of anything. It's not like it would change your mind to see the links, anyway.

 

I'll let people draw their own conclusions from your excuse.

 

Until somebody provides a link to any of these rampant misandry threads, there's no reason for any of us to believe that they actually exist (especially in large numbers).

[shadowplay]

The thread is about men having fear of saying no to women, not about specific or global hatred. The example I outlined above, taken from real life (and spoken to my ear) outlines one impetus of a specific fear men can have for saying no. I won't go into more detail in the example since it would be personal and paint the woman in question in less than a flattering light. For men, especially men in a committed marriage, there is a clear and present fear of their wife and mother of their children unilaterally taking up with another man and abandoning the family and devastating his life's work in the process, even as the betrayer of his trust and devotion.

 

I will say that, for myself, it is healthier, if hating, to do it specifically, and you'll see that in my postings here, as well as in real life. I take people to task as individuals. I generalize from experience when offering advice *sometimes*. I think the key is applying that advice with specificity, across gender lines. Perhaps that is some of the frustration which is felt wrt Wog's perspective, in that he rarely takes men to task for their hurtful behaviors. IDK. Regardless, it's off-topic. Fear the 'alert button'

 

I don't think it's actually off-topic. We're discussing the thread's subtext rather than the specific question it poses. In this case I'd argue the subtext is more interesting and relevant, because most of Woggle's threads are interchangeable, thinly veiled gender attacks. He's gotten a bit sneakier since Tony put an end to misogyny threads, but his motivations are still pretty transparent.

Edited March 5, 2010 by shadowplay

[carhill]

I don't think it's actually off-topic. We're discussing the thread's subtext rather than the specific question it poses. In this case I'd argue the subtext is more interesting and relevant, because most of Woggle's threads are interchangeable, thinly veiled gender attacks. He's gotten a bit sneakier since Tony put an end to misogyny threads, but his motivations are still pretty transparent.

Fear is an impetus for hate, not the reverse, so IMO the thread's premise examines in more specificity the causes for fear rather than the manifestations of fear (hate being one) itself. If you keep the discussion within the realm of fear (specific or global or whatever realm is appropriate), then I agree. This was a delineation which we dealt with in MC when working on perception and communication. I personally think exploration of fear is a great topic.

 

Since you know Wog's gender attacks, if that is what they are, don't apply to you, what does it matter? Care less, feel more powerful

 

Here's a quote from the OP:

 

When I stopped being afraid to piss off a woman is when everything changed for me. I can't explain how liberating it is to get over that fear.

 

My perception was that the OP discovered for himself a healthy boundary (or boundaries) and faced his fear and conquered it. I faced similar fears in my marriage. I can identify with his perspective. You may not, and that's OK. That you, or other women, don't does not invalidate that perspective. You own your response. It's your choice

[bayouboi]

Fear is an impetus for hate, not the reverse, so IMO the thread's premise examines in more specificity the causes for fear rather than the manifestations of fear (hate being one) itself. If you keep the discussion within the realm of fear (specific or global or whatever realm is appropriate), then I agree. This was a delineation which we dealt with in MC when working on perception and communication. I personally think exploration of fear is a great topic.

 

Since you know Wog's gender attacks, if that is what they are, don't apply to you, what does it matter? Care less, feel more powerful

 

Here's a quote from the OP:

 

 

 

My perception was that the OP discovered for himself a healthy boundary (or boundaries) and faced his fear and conquered it. I faced similar fears in my marriage. I can identify with his perspective. You may not, and that's OK. That you, or other women, don't does not invalidate that perspective. You own your response. It's your choice

 

Wow, Carhill, that is pretty insightful. What you said caused me to go back and read the OP to determine which part of his post was "anti-woman" as had been labeled on him by posters like shadowplay. You know what? I couldn't find anything that was anti-woman in sentiment. It all appeared to be anti-fear of a woman.

 

So why would these few posters attack that post? Is it a fear of losing some power over would-be women-fearing men? Very strange indeed.

[shadowplay]

Fear is an impetus for hate, not the reverse, so IMO the thread's premise examines in more specificity the causes for fear rather than the manifestations of fear (hate being one) itself. If you keep the discussion within the realm of fear (specific or global or whatever realm is appropriate), then I agree. This was a delineation which we dealt with in MC when working on perception and communication. I personally think exploration of fear is a great topic.

 

Since you know Wog's gender attacks, if that is what they are, don't apply to you, what does it matter? Care less, feel more powerful

 

Here's a quote from the OP:

 

 

 

My perception was that the OP discovered for himself a healthy boundary (or boundaries) and faced his fear and conquered it. I faced similar fears in my marriage. I can identify with his perspective. You may not, and that's OK. That you, or other women, don't does not invalidate that perspective. You own your response. It's your choice

 

I actually agree with Woggle's assertion that men shouldn't fear saying no to women. I'd take it a step further and say that nobody should fear saying no to anybody in a relationship. Gender is beside the point. There are people who struggle with assertiveness in both genders. People shouldn't be doormats.

 

What irritates me is somebody taking an otherwise reasonable argument and then finding a way of sneaking in an insult against a particular group. This makes it seem as if the premise is only a device for group bashing.

Edited March 5, 2010 by shadowplay

[carhill]

I'd take it a step further and say that nobody should fear saying no to anybody in a relationship. Gender is beside the point. There are people who struggle with assertiveness in both genders. People shouldn't be doormats.

 

I agree. In my example prior, the healthy thing for the lady to have done IMO should have been to confront the issues in her M rather than seeking whatever validation she did in an EMA. Fear of confrontation and fear of the effects, both socially and economically, surely paid a large role. I made similar mistakes in my M, though did not have a PA. MC helped me see the clear role of my fear in that dynamic. If Wog's came to that same realization, considering his history and age, especially on his own (no IC), he has my respect.

 

28 years ago, my bf said no to his ex'es coke habit. He ended up poor in an empty house fighting for his daughter's custody with every last cent he possessed and could borrow. That's fear. He faced it.

 

What irritates me is somebody taking an otherwise reasonable argument and then finding a way of sneaking in an insult against a particular group. This makes it seem as if the premise is only a device for group bashing.

 

Thanks. I'll be careful to be more specific when remarking on topics so as not to give that impression. I think we all have it within our power to steer topics into healthy discussions and away from gender-bashing. I'll work on doing my part.

[TheLoneSock]

This is what tends to get men in trouble in their love lives. Most men today have a crippling fear of pissing off a woman and that leads to a man bending over backwards for any crazy whim that they might have. They are afraid to say no to a woman because god forbid a woman disapprove of them. Women then tend to walk all over them and lose respect which causes them to lose attraction.

 

Getting over this fear is what could help men. When I stopped being afraid to piss off a woman is when everything changed for me. I can't explain how liberating it is to get over that fear. The ironic thing is that women were more attracted to me and respected me a whole lot more.

 

Men can turn things around by learning to say no to a woman.

 

I can't really think of a time I've had an issue telling a girl no for something. If there's something I don't want to do/say/feel, I just say no.

 

Maybe some more concrete examples of what you're talking about? I don't really understand.

[sally4sara]

I find it humorous that you accuse him of having a god complex because he purports to know what everyone is thinking & then you go on in the next paragraph to declare for everyone's thoughts that Woggle's posts aren't helpful to anyone.

 

I find his posts to be helpful in that they often express some of my own frustrations in dealing with the opposite sex so speak for yourself, please.

 

He gives you what you feel you already have and you call it help?

 

What has he offered that has helped solve anything? Sounds like you describe throwing gasoline on a fire as help.

[sally4sara]

I think it's simply a result of social conditioning. Most males don't really have an outlet for a release of frustrations. We can't talk to our friends about it because we're just supposed to suck it up and deal with it. Introduce the internet & anonymity & voila!

 

No outlet huh? Boxing, batting cage, hunting, all manner of aggressive sport. Shall we move on to the illegal methods or do you see what I'm getting at?

 

It is on you for not talking to your friends about it and not a lack of outlets. The thread title is just Woggle's latest opener to bash women, but you just made it clear it isn't about fear of pissing off women to you, it is also you being afraid of EVERYONE's reaction to expressing yourself at all.

 

Women experience hurt in their relationships too. If talking about it among friends works for us, why are you whining about having that venue as well as others?

[bayouboi]

No outlet huh? Boxing, batting cage, hunting, all manner of aggressive sport. Shall we move on to the illegal methods or do you see what I'm getting at?

 

It is on you for not talking to your friends about it and not a lack of outlets. The thread title is just Woggle's latest opener to bash women, but you just made it clear it isn't about fear of pissing off women to you, it is also you being afraid of EVERYONE's reaction to expressing yourself at all.

 

Women experience hurt in their relationships too. If talking about it among friends works for us, why are you whining about having that venue as well as others?

 

You've either misunderstood me or are taking me out of context to prove your own point. I was merely speculating (that's what i meant when I said "this is just speculation") on the motives behind such dialogue.

[carhill]

Women experience hurt in their relationships too. If talking about it among friends works for us, why are you whining about having that venue as well as others?

 

I agree with this. As a result, I will continue to seek support and share with all manner of friends, both male and female, regardless of what others might brand as 'inappropriate'. As I outlined above, a woman came to me in confidence, sharing personal things regarding her relationship. I know her husband. She received my support and understanding, both personally and regarding her marriage. I think that's healthy. That's what friends do. I hope more men become open to such support and understanding, something most women take for granted amongst their friends. I'll do my part

[Disillusioned]

I think Woggle is not wholly wrong. If what he says in his posts is based on experience, who can argue against that? Maybe a very bull headed person will try to argue against someone else's experiences, but most of us know better.

 

But to stay on topic, I never had a problem saying no to women. There was one in particular who was after me just so I could be her whipping boy, and then she tried to get me fired from my job when I ignored her advances. I'm not going to whitewash things by lying and saying all women are too respectable to say no to, because they're not. In my book, respect has to be earned; it is not a gift. None of the women in my life have been considerate enough to deserve any respect from me.

[donnamaybe]

How hard can it be to see the implication in this thread?

 

Woggle implies that women, when disagreed with, will become nagging harridans.

 

Yeah. Why should anyone have a problem with that?