Do you know you're flashing me when you're trying on shoes?

[silverfish]

But what I was wondering, is oftentimes if the woman is wearing an at all low cut shirt, when she bends over to tie her shoes I've got a birds eye view down her shirt

 

 

Ok. I read the OPs post and dont want to insult the guy here by reading into ridiculous stuff here -- he just looks down womens tops when he gets the chance.

 

TBF you have consistently over many posts BLAMED women for this, fairly normal male phenomena....I find that a little strange.

 

You come across as fairly intelligent so who are you you taking the 'average fat white legal aid jerk lawyer defence of rape victim' approach to this thread of 'she was asking for it'?

 

Again, I don't get it

[threebyfate]

silverfish, how does looking and thinking, leap to rape? I believe that men have the right to look if something's being displayed. They also have the right to think.

 

This discussion has gone way, way, way overboard.

 

I think it's time to agree to disagree.

[silverfish]

This issue is pretty straight-forward to me, in that it doesn't take 13 years of parenting experience to figure out that boys look at girls. The more a girl shows, the more a boy looks and yes, he also, sometimes thinks about stuff.

 

I'm also surprised at how personal our interaction has gotten, as I normally respect your posting style.

 

Yep.... I have 2 boys...who respect girls and also me (as a single parent bringing up 2 boys), it's also not hard for me to see that teenage girls provoke boys and vice versa, but I'm not teaching or preaching anyone how they should dress....nor is any other parent round my way.

 

I think it's horrible that children should grow up to live their life according to the lowest common denomitor in their social group.

[A O]

TBF you have consistently over many posts BLAMED women for this, fairly normal male phenomena....I find that a little strange.

It's standard behavior across the board, men look, women like to be looked at - that's the dance of life. If there's blame to be apportioned then it needs to be apportioned equally. There are consequences to everything we do - unfettered freedom included. Understanding this is paramount here.

 

 

.

[threebyfate]

Straight up, I'm not going to skewer a guy who's looking and thinking sexual thoughts, when sets of breasts are being exposed to him, knowingly or unknowingly. He's just being a guy!

 

He doesn't even flirt with female customers unless they flirt with him first. He's not saying crude things to them. He's not advocating or doing any touching.

 

I don't even skewer the women who do it, knowingly or unknowingly. It's okay to want to wear clothing to feel attractive. It's also okay to not give a crap if he looks. This is your choice. If you don't want men looking, don't expose yourself by wearing something that won't have a wardrobe malfunction.

 

What I'm aghast at, is that women believe this is disrespectful, that men shouldn't be looking or thinking about what's literally been put in front of their faces.

[silverfish]

It's standard behavior across the board, men look, women like to be looked at - that's the dance of life. If there's blame to be apportioned then it needs to be apportioned equally. There are consequences to everything we do - unfettered freedom included. Understanding this is paramount here.

 

 

.

 

Yes and i agree that this is the case, but there should also be consequences on the males (boys) to be able to handle the free exposure of female flesh, which on the whole, they can. They might look, and they also might fantasise, but it doesn't mean they can also judge...

 

What worries me somewhat is the judging of women by other women, therefore imposing restrictions on what women / girls may or may not wear when its clear that its not an intentional 'provocation' in MOST instances.

 

I don't want to be reactionary, but really the only solution to this is that the female covers up.....ie we all wear the burkha, which is also seen as repressive to the female form....which is one of the reasons there are people fighting a war in Afganistan on our behalf......

 

Maybe I am being a little extreme here, but there are good reasons we have the freedoms we have right now as women and men, and we'd do well to acknowledge that's the case rather than some sort of abstract argument....people live and die by their beliefs, and some not so far from home

Edited March 6, 2010 by silverfish

[A O]

Yes and i agree that this is the case, but there should also be consequences on the males (boys) to be able to handle the free exposure of female flesh, which on the whole, they can.

For sure, and there are. Look, to the point of ogling for instance will almost always draw a negative response from a woman, be it a steely glare, a terse comment or a ruined potential opportunity.

 

They might look, and they also might fantasise, but it doesn't mean they can also judge...

No. Guys who look at women the wrong way will elicit a judgment of some sort. Its all about actions and consequences.

 

What worries me somewhat is the judging of women by other women, therefore imposing restrictions on what women / girls may or may not wear when its clear that its not an intentional 'provocation' in MOST instances.

Women have been self-regulating their behavior since lord knows when. The benefits of doing this obviously must outweigh the consequences of this (perceived restrictions and the like) otherwise you'd have stopped doing it eons ago.

 

Maybe I am being a little extreme here, but there are good reasons we have the freedoms we have right now as women and men, and we'd do well to acknowledge that's the case rather than some sort of abstract argument

With freedom comes responsibility, for every action there's a conseqence. Whichever road one chooses to take will bring with it it's own unique circumstances. A responsible person will accept these circumstances. They might not like them, but they won't blame others for whatever befalls them. They understand, first and foremost, that they chose this route. Again, these are the key points and akin to what I believe threebyfate has been trying to say of late.

 

 

.

[OpenBook]

Are you women at all aware you're giving me a show? Do you think some are doing this to flirt a bit, or just completely oblivious? (Of course, I'm very discreet about looking, but it's hard not too).

 

No I'm not always aware that I'm giving you a show. The shoes are Front and Center for me, buddy!! But I do notice your reaction to it afterwards. You guys get that look in your eyes, it's almost like a gooey film spreading down your eyes and you get this slack-jawed look on your face... but I digress. It used to piss me off. But now (with some life experience) I know that most guys "enjoy the show" and wonder if she's deliberately trying to draw their interest. And I think it's OK if you explore that potential interest with her in a respectful manner - i.e., when you flirt with her like you're doing with your customers. I have no problem with that, as long as it stays respectful.

 

What I DO have a problem with is when you automatically assume that I'm hitting on you when I "give you a show" and you start leering at me and everything you say to me has a heavy sexual innuendo to it. When guys do this they're making WAY too many assumptions about me right off the bat, without knowing me at all. And I shut that sh*t down real quick.

 

Unfortunately this behavior is the very reason why we women have to be cognizant about how we dress (how it looks to others) so that we don't appear to desire that kind of attention. One of the unfair but necessary facts of life, to be on guard about this. We don't have any control over how you guys are going to react... so we HAVE to be careful about showing our sexual desirability!

 

Of course, some women aren't that careful and yes, they may deliberately dress provocatively to get ANY male attention. Teenagers do this a lot. They experiment with it. And it's one of the many challenges of being a parent, to help guide them through this difficult learning process - or at least keep them from harm until they reach adulthood and go out on their own.

[georgia girl]

I am literally laughing out loud - this thread is too funny! :lmao:

 

I have to admit, when I put on a lower cut blouse, I do the bend over in the mirror routine to make sure I'm not going to hang out in an awkward moment. Still, I have been known to not notice until much later (when I get home and think, "Hmm... maybe this blouse would be revealing" and check myself in the mirror.) Upon confirming my worst fears, I usually think to myself, "Perhaps no one noticed?"

 

Thanks for pointing out that it does get noticed.

 

I'll be a little more careful in the future.

[Lizzie60]

I've worked in a running store for a number of years. I'm an attractive, friendly guy and its not uncommon for customers to flirt with me (and some of the other male staff) and we flirt along.

 

In fact, this is likely the best place to practice socializing with women because I spend SO MUCH face to face time with them (much longer than normal shoe buying if you've ever been "fitted" for shoes, this can take an hour sometimes).

 

But what I was wondering, is oftentimes if the woman is wearing an at all low cut shirt, when she bends over to tie her shoes I've got a birds eye view down her shirt.

 

Are you women at all aware you're giving me a show? Do you think some are doing this to flirt a bit, or just completely oblivious? (Of course, I'm very discreet about looking, but it's hard not too).

 

 

Humm... you're not doing your job right.. usually the salesman kneel down and put the shoes on and tie them... so there is no show..

[Lizzie60]

I honestly don't see the big deal... it,s not illegal to show the breasts.. if you go on the beach..women go topless if they wish to...

 

what's the big hoola if you see a little bit of cleavage...

 

Do you know how much a cm of cleavage could cost?

 

I have huge breasts.. and yes I like to watch a guy's face when he looks at my 'girls'.. and it's amazing how much 'favours' I get from men... so I'm not only 'showing' them... I use them (men carry stuff... they let you go before them... etc... etc..)

[carhill]

So, what happens when the 'girls' don't elicit the expected response? When the guy engages the human part rather than the mammary part? How is the man's attraction response gauged by the woman? Does she think that he does not find her attractive, given the 'usual' response to cleavage? I'm curious about the psychology, in general, and wish to compare a wider sample to my personal collection.

 

In the shoe salesman sample, if he's ogling and she shuts him down, is his attraction value gauged higher or more highly than the salesman who looks her in the eye and pays no attention to the cleavage? Let's say the salesmen are otherwise equally attractive.... what is her perception?

[Lizzie60]

So, what happens when the 'girls' don't elicit the expected response? When the guy engages the human part rather than the mammary part? How is the man's attraction response gauged by the woman? Does she think that he does not find her attractive, given the 'usual' response to cleavage? I'm curious about the psychology, in general, and wish to compare a wider sample to my personal collection.

 

In the shoe salesman sample, if he's ogling and she shuts him down, is his attraction value gauged higher or more highly than the salesman who looks her in the eye and pays no attention to the cleavage? Let's say the salesmen are otherwise equally attractive.... what is her perception?

 

Nothing really... I know that some men are not attracted to big boobs.. and it's OK.. no big deal.. but I know that most men are attracted to big boobs though... and I also know when the guy is doing 'efforts' not to look..

 

If the guy pays no attention to my girls.. I pay no attention to his 'non-attention'..

[sweetjasmine]

So, what happens when the 'girls' don't elicit the expected response? When the guy engages the human part rather than the mammary part?

 

Personally, I prefer that.

 

Does she think that he does not find her attractive, given the 'usual' response to cleavage?

 

No.

 

In the shoe salesman sample, if he's ogling and she shuts him down, is his attraction value gauged higher or more highly than the salesman who looks her in the eye and pays no attention to the cleavage? Let's say the salesmen are otherwise equally attractive.... what is her perception?

 

I'd probably feel more comfortable with the salesman who didn't ogle me.

[SomewhatExperienced]

Humm... you're not doing your job right.. usually the salesman kneel down and put the shoes on and tie them... so there is no show..

 

I sometimes tie people's shoes for them. It depends on how I feel and how quickly and properly they tie up their own shoes. Definitely older, less mobile customers I always will. Even attractive women who I know I might catch a glimpse at I'll sometimes tie their shoes if they seem like their the type to appreciate the service (some people don't, you try to guage it from the start).

 

Also, believe it or not, when a well-endowed woman comes in with a low cut top I'll often tie her shoes deliberately so that she doesn't have to worry about showing the girls.

 

Response: "I'd probably feel more comfortable with the salesman who didn't ogle me."

 

I don't like the term ogle. I don't ogle, I sneak a peak. Let's say your day job involved regularly assisting fit, male athletes find proper athletic wear, and this involved them getting topless right in front of you to try on on the shirts, would you not "sneak a peak"?

 

I don't feel there's anything crude or predatory about what I do. I'm human. Other than my sneak peaks, I'm nothing but polite, friendly and professional and won't flirt with the customer unless we're clearly connected and she initiates it.

[marsle85]

SomewhatExperienced,

 

I'm on your side. As long as I don't know you're looking- whatev, go riiight ahead. We expect people to be too politically correct/moral/etc.

 

We're human! And they're just BOOBS. Jesus.