Thinking about leaving

[2sure]

She sounds like one of those women who spend so much time with other women bitc*ing, bitc*ing,bitc*ing about men that its become her nature to do so. Yuck. Nag, nag, nag.

 

As a woman myself, I try to stay away from women that do that, especially in groups - like a work atmosphere. Total downers, and after even one session - I'm irritable with men .

 

My H and I went to MC recently (for a completely different issue that remains unresolved) however - I did learn a great deal about communication that I honestly didnt know or took for granted that I did. I highly recommend it if you can find a MC that has a plan to focus on communication.

 

I would give her two red tickets a day and tell her those are her complaint forms. After she used them up, I'd hand her a shut up card.

I dont how you do it.

[skywriter]

I look at it as life being too short to be whining over petty stuff.

 

 

Greg,

 

From reading your post, you sound like a really level headed person.

 

My thoughts after reading the sentence you wrote about whining over petty stuff and also how accepting you've been about her being a sloppy housekeeper, etc.

 

I thought, you don't know what you've got 'til it's gone. It's such a painful lesson to learn and I hope your W doesn't have to learn the hard way.

[Greg_1963]

An update:

 

I have to admit, the W initiated the conversation. I was set to let this be and just be left alone. But I put it all out on the table, my feelings about the whole argument, her reactions and how I felt, etc - we gave each other time, no interruptions were allowed. I'm actually surprised we were able to stick to that - although she said a few things that had me so outraged, I had to put a stop to it, otherwise I would've stormed out of the bedroom.

 

Her biggest concern is: She has seen other couples over the years deteriorate to basically roomates with marriage licenses. She doesn't want us to become that kind of couple. Within the last couple of years, she has seen a complacency in me that worries her. I'm not talking about any kind of abuse or addictions, but just a mindset of "look, 22 years together, this happens in all relationships". She brought up quite a few instances over the last few years that she didn't like, but kept quiet about it for fear of me getting defensive about it. She brings up my argument that she wants "100% romance 100% of the time".

 

One thing that angered me is, when I would say, "I love you", she would just shake her head no. That led to my outburst of, "why do you keep negating that? I'm telling you how I feel, truly, and you just dismiss it with a nod...like I'm a child or something".

 

She talked about how I would always make weekend getaways to hotels - maybe go out clubbing and being able to return to a hotel afterwards for wild sex, how this kept things alive and fresh. And how we don't do that anymore. Its routine.

 

We brought up needs. I told her that when I tell her I still find her attractive, that when I stop by her work for no other reason than to say hi, that I spend tons of quality time with the kids, doing all the laundry, I'm assuming I'm filling her needs. SHE, on the other hand, figures that cuddling in bed, cleaning the bathrooms, and working, is filling MY needs. Although these things are NICE to do for each other (or for ourselves), they're not filling each others definition of "needs".

 

She would rather me leave the laundry and get her a card or flowers. Skip stopping by work and send her a lovey text. Say "love you" at the end of a phone call.

 

I would rather skip the cuddling and get oral sex. I could care less about her cleaning the bathrooms, its our closet and her millions of articles of clothing that drive me insane.

 

Its easy to fall into that rut of, "why is she cleaning the bathrooms when the closet is horrible?" "Why is he playing games on the laptop instead of checking out weekend getaways?"

 

I asked about her sister, the one who is physically abused by her H. How does that marriage work? In a weird sort of way, although there is NO excuse for the abuse, he fills her needs. Meaning, he provides the huge house with 3 car garage, two brand new cars, hot tub, pool, vacation home in the mountains. To her, as long as all her material needs are filled, the abuse is secondary.

 

I feel as if the air is somewhat cleared. I have an issue about her that really disturbs me, which we still need to talk about - her refusal to apologize to ANYTHING. There's no acceptance of blame, no "oops, I didn't think about that" - she has a habit of always dereflecting the issue back onto you...whether it be me, the kids, or coworkers. This came up in therapy last year, and her response was, "my mother NEVER apologized...", so the therapist knew where she got that from. Like above, when she kept shaking her head no, there was no recognization of how much that bothered me...no "oops, I can see I hit a nerve..." - it was all justified in her mind.

 

We still have some work to do, but I think we're on the right path. I've got a call in to our old MC to see if we can get back into the swing of it. Having a neutral party really helped with the blame acceptance last time.

 

Many thanks for the valuable input

Greg

[mimidarlin]

Oh Greg...that apologizing thing hits a raw nerve for me. I think we should treat our family, spouses, coworkers etc with general respect. Please, thank you, I'm, sorry. If we hurt someones feelings or inconvenience them we should apologize. This was next to impossible for my husband. Was an issue that we would go round and round over.

 

When he started getting annoyed with me apologizing for things I became angry. If I want to apologize because I think I annoyed you or inconvenienced you then f***ing let me.

 

This is a battle of whose fault it is and you can't win. Nobody will win. Your wife has a serious lack of empathy. Maybe there is a part of her emotions that never matured because of her relationship with her mother. I see that in my mother. Your wife's behavior reminds me of my mom...acting like a martyr.

 

I'm brought back to her realizing that your needs aren't being met. She doesn't want to become roomies...so what is she prepared to do to be part of the solution and not the problem? It's about what she wants...100% romance 100% of the time. That would wear me out and eventually it will become the same old same old.

 

Go to counseling

 

It's the only hope you guys have of improving your relationship for both of you.

[Mrs. Ambivalent]

Hi Greg

 

Well I'll start with the positives. Looks like you'll be planning a weekend getaway with some wild, hot sex?! Yay!

 

Buy some stock in Hallmark, then start buying her some cards. Plan the weekend, send her a card describing the weekend. She's already told you what she wants (cards and wild sex) so there ya go. Start there.

 

If there isn't another man involved, you're way ahead of many of the men on this board.

 

So we're back to the communication thing. IMO that's definitely something MC can fix. Sorry you'll have to go through the cost but like others have mentioned it's cheaper than a D atty.

 

So now to the negative. If she is not admitting to contributing to the breakdown of your marriage after her anger management problem, you've got a long row to hoe. You can't change what you don't acknowledge.

 

So again, I would bring that up in MC. She probably needs some IC also to work on herself.

 

It's a start. Not time to give up yet. But definitely still some warning signs for me that there's still work to do and she may be paying you some lip service to keep you happy for a while.

 

Keep us posted. Oh, and send her some darned flowers tomorrow at work!!

[Greg_1963]

Right back in the ****ter.

 

Decided to update this: We DID spend a nice getaway weekend together sans kids. Fun hotel sex, nice dinner, quality time together. She said she felt reconnected, which was a good thing to hear. Small minor argument before we left, to which she apologized, which really made a huge difference.

 

So we're back home - she takes a drive to a park 10 miles away - 12 mile run, she's training for a marathon. I get a phone call - "can you do me a favor and bring me a AAA battery? Mine ran out on the mp3 player". I say, "you're serious? You're not near a store or anything?" She says, "Yes, I am, but I don't have my wallet."

 

So I say no, its kinda silly for me to drive ALL they way out there (drive to the store, get batteries, meet her and give them to her). To which she says, "Its the little things that matter, and the fact is you won't do it for me, knowing that I need to accomplish this run." So, I reply back..."all this over a battery?"

 

Her - "I took a chance asking you knowing this was small - but you really don't do things if YOU don't want to. PERIOD". And that was that. I apologized, but by then she already begged my teenager to help her out.

 

So, now she's home and I sense the "piss mist". One word answers to me, not talking to me at all.

 

Holy crap....what the hell happened?

[carhill]

I look at the thread title. If stbx had gotten pissy about crap like a stupid battery, I'd have left years ago, and I often imagined myself as a doormat.

 

I'd simply say 'I find this behavior unacceptable' and walk away. Bye-bye

[mimidarlin]

She's testing you. It isn't fair and I've been guilty of it myself. Your response to the "test" proves something to her. What that is I couldn't tell you. Should you run out there and give her a battery? Sure it would be nice but come on...can't she run without the music? I still see the me, me, me side of her. If you had been at her beck and call would it have fixed anything? I think it would have set you up for more demands.

[Greg_1963]

She's testing you. It isn't fair and I've been guilty of it myself. Your response to the "test" proves something to her. What that is I couldn't tell you. Should you run out there and give her a battery? Sure it would be nice but come on...can't she run without the music? I still see the me, me, me side of her. If you had been at her beck and call would it have fixed anything? I think it would have set you up for more demands.

 

Yeah, I'm trying to figure this out too. She has an MP3 player AND an Ipod Nano. She's completely computer illiterate, so installing the music is up to me. Which I gladly do. I've found her a huge collection of music specifically focused on running. Not sure what much else I can do.

 

If the run meant that much to her, why didn't SHE make sure the batteries were ok (or stock spares) instead of berating me for not bailing her out?

[Gunny376]

She's testing you. As a general rule? You tell her 'no' for every two or three times you tell her 'yes' ~ just on general principle. Doesn't matter what it is.

 

Its just to show her that you're your own man and that your not going to be a supplicating 'at-your-beck-and-call' ~ "YES MA'AM!" 24/7. She's a big girl and can take care of things herself.

 

If she gets PO'd? Oh well! She needs to grow up. She can run without her music. I know I did it for over thirty years.

 

You just know that you don't have over Marine Recruit series of over 200+ Marines doing a three mile run listening to the iPods.

[Greg_1963]

Some more of an update:

 

She was really chipper and in a good mood yesterday. So, I ask what the difference is between now and when she came home from the run. She said that since I apologized, things were ok.

 

I said, "I apologized?" She said, yeah, you texted it to me. Then I remember at the end of her texting fury to me about the battery situation, I texted back "sorry" and that was the end of it.

 

Next thing I said was probably a mistake, but given the mood I was in at the time (pissed because once again I felt like I capitulated) I said, "Well, I only said that to make the peace. Doesn't make the situation in my mind right".

 

If anyone heard a loud explosion about 6PM yesterday, that was from my area. She went off again, telling me how ****ty she feels AGAIN because I basically "took back the apology". She continually harped on the IMPORTANCE of this little thing, how if I would've simply gotten a battery for her would've made me a hero in her mind. How she would've loved to BRAG about her great husband doing those little things for her. That I SHOULD KNOW how important this is to her.

 

I countered - ok, so where do you draw the line? I mean, come on, whats next, going out to get you a Diet Coke from McDonalds? And, that she's a big girl, she can certainly take care of something as small as a battery. She admitted she screwed up that part, that she's usually prepared with a charged Ipod and spare batteries, water, etc for her runs. But that theme, the "IMPORTANCE OF LITTLE THINGS" kept coming from her mouth. All frikkin' night.

 

I did stand my ground, though, countering with how silly this all is. She kept saying if the roles were reversed, she'd understand how important something is to ME and would get it for me. Thats all well and good, but I've yet to, in 22 years of marriage, ask her for anything like that. Maybe if I'm stranded in the car, rarely, but then I usually call AAA.

 

We were talking about the family event coming up, where the women all bash their husbands for being on drugs, physical abuse, unemployment, philandering - and I mentioned how ridiculous she would sound when this comes up. Her counter was, "if you would've gotten the freakin battery, I'd brag about you and they'd all be jealous.."

 

Things seemed to have cooled off this AM, though. She called and we chatted briefly.

 

Not sure where this will wind up.

[aimchase]

When a man gets into a relationship of any kind with a woman? He gets a sack. Trouble is? The vast majority' of men don't know they even have a sack?

 

Every neglectful thought, word or deed? Goes into the sack.

 

Every time you screw up with her? It goes into the sack.

 

Every time you don't do something that she thinks you should do? It goes into the sack.

 

Basically every word you've spoken or have not spoken that you shouldn't have said or should have said? Every act that you shouldn't have done or should have done? But did or did or should have done?

 

Goes into the sack.

 

And its never ever going to be taken out of the sack.

 

I know this is meant to give a genuine insight, but Gunny, this is one of the funniest threads i've read in years! My stomach is now involuntarily contracting, long after the fits of laughter and tears!

[aimchase]

Some more of an update:

 

She was really chipper and in a good mood yesterday. So, I ask what the difference is between now and when she came home from the run. She said that since I apologized, things were ok.

 

I said, "I apologized?" She said, yeah, you texted it to me. Then I remember at the end of her texting fury to me about the battery situation, I texted back "sorry" and that was the end of it.

 

Next thing I said was probably a mistake, but given the mood I was in at the time (pissed because once again I felt like I capitulated) I said, "Well, I only said that to make the peace. Doesn't make the situation in my mind right".

 

If anyone heard a loud explosion about 6PM yesterday, that was from my area. She went off again, telling me how ****ty she feels AGAIN because I basically "took back the apology". She continually harped on the IMPORTANCE of this little thing, how if I would've simply gotten a battery for her would've made me a hero in her mind. How she would've loved to BRAG about her great husband doing those little things for her. That I SHOULD KNOW how important this is to her.

 

I countered - ok, so where do you draw the line? I mean, come on, whats next, going out to get you a Diet Coke from McDonalds? And, that she's a big girl, she can certainly take care of something as small as a battery. She admitted she screwed up that part, that she's usually prepared with a charged Ipod and spare batteries, water, etc for her runs. But that theme, the "IMPORTANCE OF LITTLE THINGS" kept coming from her mouth. All frikkin' night.

 

I did stand my ground, though, countering with how silly this all is. She kept saying if the roles were reversed, she'd understand how important something is to ME and would get it for me. Thats all well and good, but I've yet to, in 22 years of marriage, ask her for anything like that. Maybe if I'm stranded in the car, rarely, but then I usually call AAA.

 

We were talking about the family event coming up, where the women all bash their husbands for being on drugs, physical abuse, unemployment, philandering - and I mentioned how ridiculous she would sound when this comes up. Her counter was, "if you would've gotten the freakin battery, I'd brag about you and they'd all be jealous.."

 

Things seemed to have cooled off this AM, though. She called and we chatted briefly.

 

Not sure where this will wind up.

 

I can't help but feel that you're both being stubborn, point-scoring, manipulative (more her on that front), and just contantly battling for dominance.

 

Sounds like you're both in a rut. You need to establish the values you both have beyond the pettiness - that make require MC, a new hobby together, or something else. I'm no expert on that, but something needs to break and I don't think it needs to be your 22 year marriage.

[mikeymad]

Sometimes you have to ask yourself "would i rather feel better because I said what I need to, got in the last word, proven i'm right etc...or had peace and been happy"

You said that stuff because of your pride and ego, and your need to counter her every thought and be dominant. Hard to admit, but as men, we tend to do that. We want respect.

Want to confuse the hell out of her? Listen to what she says, and don't be formulating your comeback, waiting for a dead spot in the conversation to throw it in. Then.....here it comes.....Agree with her! Apologize, and ask her for forgiveness. "honey, you were right (key #1 agree).i should've gotten you the batteries and not made such a big deal out of it, and I'm sorry(key #2 apology). How can I make it up to you? (key #3 -actions of remorse). Funny thing is, the more you let go of your ego, the more respect you get! Too many of us (including myself) learn this crap too late.

[carhill]

Nah, because if any of you have divorced and been taken to the cleaners, you'll know that rolling over on your sword only hurts you.

 

BTDT, ate the steel. Not tasty.

 

Set you boundaries. Communicate them. Walk if they are not respected. The OP's wife is clearly being unreasonable and manipulative. Push back. Eat it

[Mrs. Ambivalent]

Hi again Greg

 

So I only have a minute but I wanted to make a quick comment. A quick, inappropriate comment.

 

I'm thinking if she doesn't settle down she's going to need batteries for more than her Ipod soon.

 

Sorry, couldn't help myself, but that's what I kept thinking while I was reading this.

 

I'll be back with a more analytical approach and I'll try to keep my comments on task. And I'll look up capitulated in the dictionary.

 

Ta!

[2sunny]

i see a few key things happening here.

 

she doesn't problem solve for herself and expects you to fix every little thing for her - including her own happiness level.

 

tell her if she hasn't remembered to be responsible enough over something as simple as a battery - that she can figure out a solution for it. why does she expect YOU to find the solution for all her wants/needs.

 

if she wants flowers that badly - SHE should go buy them! simple as that!

 

why does SHE think you are responsible for her happiness level? you will never win! SHE is only as happy as she makes her mind up to be. get it? anything else is just secondary. this is NOT YOUR responsibility to make sure she is happy - it's just not possible. SHE is responsible for that.

 

for her to make silly and insignificant assumptions/demands from/about you is just her way of setting you up to fail. that's not even fair from the start.

 

i'd get tough with her and tell her to stop with the requirements to MAKE her happy. either she's happy or she isn't. it's not your responsibility. we aren't capable of making someone else feel a certain way - they usually feel a certain way because of assigned meaning. you can never control a person's assigned meaning - and you can't really fix it.

 

the battery thing - that was unreasonable. she should figure those things out herself instead of trying to make you fix her problems and them getting mad when you don't.

 

have you both read the Fur Agreements by Ruiz? it's a great book that you both could benefit from. try it.

 

and stop trying to make her happy - she acts like a spoiled brat that always wants you to bow to her every emotion. you will never win. if she doesn't think it's enough for her princessish nature - she should leave and see how many men would do all that for her.

 

ps... not any "real" men i know would ever put their own happiness at stake for demands that unreasonable. she needs to grow up and start figuring things out for herself.

[2sunny]

We were talking about the family event coming up, where the women all bash their husbands for being on drugs, physical abuse, unemployment, philandering - and I mentioned how ridiculous she would sound when this comes up. Her counter was, "if you would've gotten the freakin battery, I'd brag about you and they'd all be jealous.."

 

wow, this is so wrong and hurtful!

 

let's see...

 

IF you do as i say and do it right - i'll be nice and talk nice about you...

 

 

if you don't - i'll talk trash you to all my family...

 

why were they - as a family - raised to believe that this is healthy? there's no respect on her part. she should love and respect you and your position - wants/needs - no matter what you say or do. THAT is part of who YOU are. if she doesn't like you that way - SHE should leave. she is completely unreasonable and out of line.

 

YOU need to always speak YOUR truth - no matter what she feels about it.

[Gunny376]

I'm thinking if she doesn't settle down she's going to need batteries for more than her Ipod soon.

 

Laughing my @zz off! :lmao:

[seibert253]

Greg, I'm not bashing here, actually I'm on your side on this one, but, COME ON DUDE. It's time to let it go. Be the better person here. All this drama over a frickin AAA battery? Sometimes it's about WHAT'S right, not BEING right. Pick and chose your battles.

[carhill]

His W is manipulating him just like my stbx did me. Women are masters at this. Once I went through MC and found LS and wised up, she went for the D because she knew she couldn't get anything more out of me. Once he gets his boundaries up, she'll be gone. Mark my words. She likely already has an exit plan in place, hence her bold demeanor. Classic

[2sunny]

His W is manipulating him just like my stbx did me. Women are masters at this. Once I went through MC and found LS and wised up, she went for the D because she knew she couldn't get anything more out of me. Once he gets his boundaries up, she'll be gone. Mark my words. She likely already has an exit plan in place, hence her bold demeanor. Classic

 

and she may also have a boyfriend too... maybe that's why she's willing to dump on hubby and demean him and try to make him feel badly.

 

we see it all the time - the truth comes out later and then all this nasty behavior starts to make sense after finding out that the cheating spouse had a purpose in picking all these meaningless fights.

 

it's not about the battery - i can tell you that. is she always such a power/control freak? does she always want to call the shots? at the risk of making you miserable? that's not loving and kind behavior at all.

[Greg_1963]

First - if she's got another guy, she's better than Houdini. There's absolutely NO evidence that I can see. At one time did have my suspicions, so I checked her texts, work email, and home email. I couldn't find a single thing. When she's jogging - she's jogging. When she's at work - she's working.

 

There's a story behind me and I think this is where the problem lies. Most of my life I've had a horrible anxiety disorder, through my teens into marriagehood and childraising. I hated social gatherings, family get togethers, trip, stuff like that. I'd rather be home. Eventually this affected my job, so I went into counseling, bought the books, took the medication and its safe to say I'm 90% the way there. I now travel everywhere (except by plane, hence the 10%), go out to clubs, family outings, etc. For many years I was submissive with the W, basically doing what she said and following her lead. Always apologizing to keep things calm. Doing laundry, dishes, cleaning, bill paying, anything to avoid confrontation. Well, with the anxiety dissolving, so did my fears of confrontation. I learned to say no and not worry about her reactions.

 

This, to her, was a sign of disrespect. To me, it was standing my own ground. This is where the disagreements arise. No more apologies for silly things that are, in reality, her issues. Like the battery thing. There's probably something there greater, but I'm not sure.

 

This, however, doesn't diminish my love for her, and I've told her this repeatedly.

 

As for medication, I'm aware that sometimes it can cause agitation and anger. I no longer take it, or barely take it as needed. It was a crutch at a crucial time in my life. Its strictly as needed now, maybe once a week when I have to give a presentation at work or something like that.

 

Last night was a good night, however. She's sick, and in those cases I don't mind waiting on her. Awful bronchitis, its being passed around the house. So she sees that I take care of her in these serious situations. And she called me today, left a message and ended with ILY, which she rarely does.

 

More to come.

[carhill]

The clearest reality I've noted in hindsight, after MC and splitting up, was how much I let my life revolve around stbx's moods, whims, needs, bla, bla. Wow, I can't begin to share how unhealthy that was and how much better I feel now that she's gone. Literally sucked the life out of me. You don't see it now, but the same thing is happening to you. I watch my friends with healthy M's and go 'wow, was I f*cked up or what?' Yeah, I was.

 

Do what you want. I know I did a lot for love. Nearly killed myself. Hope it works out for you

[2sunny]

The clearest reality I've noted in hindsight, after MC and splitting up, was how much I let my life revolve around stbx's moods, whims, needs, bla, bla. Wow, I can't begin to share how unhealthy that was and how much better I feel now that she's gone. Literally sucked the life out of me. You don't see it now, but the same thing is happening to you. I watch my friends with healthy M's and go 'wow, was I f*cked up or what?' Yeah, I was.

 

Do what you want. I know I did a lot for love. Nearly killed myself. Hope it works out for you

 

aw, Carhill - i know it too well.

 

so what i understand now for myself is good balance. OP seems to be working towards this too. good balance means taking care of self and others, but not at the risk of sacrificing all of self in order for others to be happy.

 

if he originally trained his wife to understand that he would serve her in order to avoid a conflict - and now he's changing things, she is likely to give him some backlash about the change.

 

stick to your guns OP, good, healthy balance is key in any relationship. being married doesn't give her a pass to walk all over you and be unreasonably demanding of you. it also doesn't give her the right to try to make you feel a certain way. be in tune with how you feel about certain situations and take a firm stand. IF that causes HER to feel a different way than usual - that's ok... this is called growth and progress.

 

to grow iis uncomfortable and painful - but it des bring change if you are willing to be consistent and strong. that is good and healthy.

 

try not to slip back in to old habits - that takes the growth away in a heartbeat. she will keep trying to get you to play that old familiar role with her. don't go there. remember that the word "no" is a complete sentence... no need to ever justify why you have a boundary.