Greg_1963 Posted February 28, 2010 Posted February 28, 2010 Here's the situation: Been married 22 years. I'm 46, she's 42. Two kids. Its been a fairly decent marriage with its typical ups and downs. However, over the last 5 years, I've noticed a change in the W - more irritable, more confrontational. We went into marriage counseling last year and uncovered some issues, some my fault (very passive, not taking the lead), most her issues (mother issues from her childhood, admittance to being a huge bitch). We'd bring up arguments we had and the therapist would analyze them and our reactions to them - and our therapist would point and show my W where she goes way off track and becomes very confrontational on minor, petty things. One argument was about me and my daughter going to a local expo and hitting McDonalds after...my W went ballistic because she hates the kids eating McDonalds and "I should know better". Every argument winds up in "I should know better", or "after 22 years together, you don't know how I feel about <insert issue here>" The therapist pointed out to her that I really DON'T know better - yes, there are obvious things that I *do* know, like not wearing work shoes in the house, hanging up my coat, etc. But I'm not expected to know every single thing and its ok for me to not know, I'm not a mind reader and she needs to understand that. So after 5 sessions, things got better and we took a year break from therapy. Well, anyway, we had two recent blowouts and I'm really feeling numb and not comfortable in the marriage anymore. First was Valentines Day - we went out to dinner with several other couples, and the next morning we went out to breakfast. She gave me a card and wished me a happy Vday, which was sweet - until 10 minutes later she start crying uncontrollably. The sad thing is I knew what the problem was - I didn't get her a card. Dinner and breakfast wasn't enough, she was upset I didn't get a card. She was upset that "I should know after all these years together that a card means the world to her". I apologized, told her she was right, tried to make light of it, but she went into super serious mode saying that this is obvious that my love for her is fading, this is the sign of complacency and the future looks bleak between us. All this over a card. The next one was this weekend, and I'm still numb from it. My new job, which I'm damn thankful I have in this crappy economy, needed workers for two holiday weekends coming up. I had the choice, too, of which weekend to pick - Memorial Day, July 4th, Labor Day, Fathers Day, Mothers Day, Thanksgiving, Xmas Eve and Day, NYE and Day. I chose New Years Day and Mothers Day - I didn't pick Fathers Day, since we'd be on vacation that week. I didn't pick any of the other days, either, because we're usually spending those days with her family. The lesser evil I figured was Mothers Day - not like I'm going to actually work, either, I just have to be on call. You could've heard a pin drop. She went nuclear on me, accusing me of not caring about her feelings, how I didn't even think to consider her when it came to choosing any of these days. She went back to Valentines Day and how again this is a sure sign of my lack of feeling for her and how we're headed downhill. Only this time, I didn't apologize, I went nuclear back on her. Told her: 1. How sick and tired I am of hearing we're going downhill - when I make every opportunity to stop by her work when I'm working to say hello. 2. How I continually tell her I still find her attractive after 22 years together, yet she says I'm doing nothing but "oogling" her. (That's what she says when I say I still find her good looking - "stop oogling me") 3. She says little things matter - so I do all the laundry, cleaning, take the kids to events while she's stuck at work. The big item was a massive, surprise 40th birthday party I threw for her at a hall, with 100 of our closest friends and family in attendance. 4. All her girlfriends bitch about their husbands, from being unemployed to not doing anything around the house to being alcoholics to being physically abusive to cheating....and here we are, arguing about this stupid ****. I feel completely under appreciated here. She KNOWS I'm pissed and is trying to make communication, but right now, I really have no interest in resolving this, which is sad. I don't care. I have so much resentment towards her right now, the cloud is thick with anger. I feel that we'll talk, clear the air, but in a week or two she'll blow up at another thing that I "should know about but don't think". Maybe I won't wipe the dogs paws when they come in from the snow. Maybe I'll forget to take my shoes off. Maybe I'll have too much stubble. Funny thing is: I could complain back equally, but I don't. She's a total slob, but I suck it up. She has habits I think are disgusting, but I'm sure I'm no saint, either, so I don't nitpick. I look at it as life being too short to be whining over petty stuff. I've been through independent therapy and have learned a lot about myself and have learned to be a more calm, relaxed person. Don't sweat the small stuff as they say. So, does anyone have some advice here?
PWSX3 Posted February 28, 2010 Posted February 28, 2010 I am sorry but I had to laugh at the card example. I am reading a book called Love & Respect. The love she most desires, the respect he desperately needs & they had the same example in the first chapter.... what she is doing is trying to tell you something but men & woman don't speak the same language so you don't hear it & that makes her mad. You get mad because she doesn't respect you..... Have you read the book; The five love languages? To me gifts might be her love language so when you do other things for her she doesn't see the love, you aren't loving her in the right way. I would also suggest that book to read. I know Gunny shares this often that men & woman do not communicate in the same way & that is a big issue in a marriage. I don't think it's time to leave yet.
Angel Pie Posted February 28, 2010 Posted February 28, 2010 You sound like a really good guy. Perhaps her nitpicking is because she is holding in some anger, who knows from what, but because she is holding it in or not dealing with it that she is exploding over small things. You say you are not ready to talk, but clearly this is weighing on your mind and she does want to talk, maybe you could write her a letter. Say all the things you need to say without anger, take your time and choose your words to really express how you feel. You could give it to her and go for a drive utill she has had time to read it. You could bring up some of the things you mentioned here. Maybe you could explain furthur about your logic of not sweating the small things. Explain that you are not oogling but that you find her beautiful. I dunno if writing is your thing...But it could avoid a fight and perhaps give her something to think about and maybe you some time to try and understand why she blows up...She cant just blow up for no reason! There must be some underlying reason...It could be as simple as stress...who knows.
LisaUk Posted February 28, 2010 Posted February 28, 2010 Hi Your not hearing what your wife is saying. I know you are trying, but she's getting mad b/c you aren't HEARING her. Like PW says men and women communicate in different ways. He's my take on it. Your wife feels very put upon, by not wiping the dogs paws, seems trival right? Well it's not to your wife b/c to her it represents you not taking her wishes or needs into account. The mothers day thing. That isn't about which day you chose or even the fact you chose mothers day. That is about the FACT you did not consulte her and ask her opinion, ask what her wishes or needs were before you made the choice. You made that decision alone. To your wife that means you do not value her opinion, do not see her as an equal partner and do not care how she feels about things. The card. Again, seems over the top to you, but if she is feeling neglected in general and by neglected I mean she feels you don't care about her needs and wants, then it's like a big deal. Do you see? She proably feels that she has been with you a long time and that she has expressed what she needs from you for a long time. When you continue not to fulfill and respect these needs the message she recieves is you don't care. It's the small stuff to you, to you wife it represents so much more than that and b/c it does she feels it is the tip of the ice-berg, that what it actually represents and means is your lack of desire and respect for her. Hence the ogling comments, b/c all this is going on in her subconscious she hears you only want her for sex. I am aware that probably all sounds riduculous to you, but this is really how women see things. Please don't leave your marriage over this, this is fixable with some patience, work and communication.
Gunny376 Posted February 28, 2010 Posted February 28, 2010 (edited) Yes you absolutely, positively, without hesitation, without question should leave your wife of 22 years! Only to perhaps eventually find yourself another woman ~ and back in the very same position with her? Your biggest problem is that your a man. You think like a man, you see the world through the eyes of a man. When a man gets into a relationship of any kind with a woman? He gets a sack. Trouble is? The vast majority' of men don't know they even have a sack? Every neglectful thought, word or deed? Goes into the sack. Every time you screw up with her? It goes into the sack. Every time you don't do something that she thinks you should do? It goes into the sack. Basically every word you've spoken or have not spoken that you shouldn't have said or should have said? Every act that you shouldn't have done or should have done? But did or did or should have done? Goes into the sack. And its never ever going to be taken out of the sack. She remembers everything of a negative or hurtful nature of the last 22 years. And it builds one upon another upon another upon another over the course of the years. Along with the "sack" comes the point system. Simple Duties You make the bed.....................................… You make the bed, but forget to add the decorative pillows..........0 You throw the bedspread over rumpled sheets........................-1 You leave the toilet seat up......................................… You replace the toilet-paper roll when it's empty...................0 When the toilet-paper roll is barren, you resort to Kleenex........-1 When the Kleenex runs out you shuffle slowly to the next bathroom..-2 You go out to buy her spring-fresh extra-light pantyliners with wings.......+5 But return with beer....................................…-10 You check out a suspicious noise at night...........................0 You check out a suspicious noise and it's nothing...................0 You check out a suspicious noise and it's something................+5 You pummel it with a six iron....................................…+10 It's her father..................................…-100 Your Physique You develop a noticeable potbelly...........-15 You develop a noticeable potbelly and exercise to get rid of it...+10 You develop a noticeable potbelly and resort to loose jeans and baggy Hawaiian shirts..........-5 You make deposits and withdrawals into her 'love bank' when you make more withdrawals that deposits? You end up with a nagging, bitching, skrew of a woman. LisaUK is right on, especially about the Mother's Day thing. When I read that I pulled into myself and thought, "Ooooooo! No you didn't!" When it comes to women? There's the "Big Five" that no man dare not hold sacred with any woman. Her Birthday Valentines Christmas Mothers Day Thanksgiving The reason she's all over your back is because after 22 years you don't "get her" and what her emotional needs are? The reason you don't "get it" is because you don't "get" women. (Don't feel bad? Most men don't ~ I didn't until I got divorced and got my @zz handed to me. Decided to "not be a fool and get back into school" Not only do you not "get" them, you don't understand them nor have a clue as to how they think, why certain things and events (even what is seemingly trivial to you) are important to them. You don't get that women literally think differently than men, and that their brains are literally hard-wired differently than men's. You don't know these things because you've never been told them, taught them, even knew they existed. So yes! Absolutely leave your wife and family of 22 years only to start all over again. And only to find yourself in the same exact situation with the next woman or women your with. You need to self-educate yourself about women and why they do the things they do, say the things they say, act the way act. If your wife is all over your @zz about any and everything, even little things? She's not bitching just to be complaining? She's attempting to communicate the way that she needs you to interact with her so that she feels wanted, needed, appreciated and love. And you haven't been listening. Or at least your not getting the message (inferring) that she's be saying (implying). Your not getting the message because your 'filtering' through that male brain housing group of yours. A quick, fast, entertaining and informative book you need to read is "Why Men Don't Have A Clue And Women Need Another Pair of Shoes." Until you 'get' women and understand how and why they think and do the way the do? Your destined to be sitting in the nursing home talking about your first, second, third, and fourth XW. Its not just her? For every finger you've got point at her? You've got three pointing back at yourself. Look at those first. Edited February 28, 2010 by Gunny376
Author Greg_1963 Posted February 28, 2010 Author Posted February 28, 2010 Hi Your not hearing what your wife is saying. I know you are trying, but she's getting mad b/c you aren't HEARING her. Like PW says men and women communicate in different ways. This is true. I think what irritates me is that I *do* hear her, but I'm not 100% at it. Take the shoes off before you come in the door - check. I do that. Hang your coat up - check. Don't bother me when General Hospital/Oprah/Ellen is on - check. He's my take on it. Your wife feels very put upon, by not wiping the dogs paws, seems trival right? Well it's not to your wife b/c to her it represents you not taking her wishes or needs into account. Point taken. The mothers day thing. That isn't about which day you chose or even the fact you chose mothers day. That is about the FACT you did not consulte her and ask her opinion, ask what her wishes or needs were before you made the choice. You made that decision alone. To your wife that means you do not value her opinion, do not see her as an equal partner and do not care how she feels about things. I do understand this is a union, but do I need to consult her on every single move that is made? I mean, I don't ask her if I should mow the lawn - I do it. I don't sit her down and say, "ok, what do you think about me doing the laundry?" I just grab the baskets and get busy. She is the same way - she doesn't ask me if she can go for a run, she simply grabs her stuff and tells me she's going for a jog. The card. Again, seems over the top to you, but if she is feeling neglected in general and by neglected I mean she feels you don't care about her needs and wants, then it's like a big deal. Do you see? I see, but I still think its over the top. Because in the past she HAS expressed her needs and wants - this was discussed in therapy. And I have made positive changes to those needs/wants. Small things I do for her. I stop by work to say hi and maybe grab lunch with her. I used to get flowers every time I did the grocery shopping (until she complained that it was a waste of money). It almost seems microscopic for this to annoy her, like, "Well, you do 9 out of 10 things, but you didn't do that one thing, so the whole list is now negated". She proably feels that she has been with you a long time and that she has expressed what she needs from you for a long time. When you continue not to fulfill and respect these needs the message she recieves is you don't care. It's the small stuff to you, to you wife it represents so much more than that and b/c it does she feels it is the tip of the ice-berg, that what it actually represents and means is your lack of desire and respect for her. Hence the ogling comments, b/c all this is going on in her subconscious she hears you only want her for sex. I have to think about this. There are many, MANY things throughout this marriage that I know are irritating to her, so I do NOT do them. Its not like I just keep rudely doing them....there are things that are important to her that I DO as well, such as social networking (she loves dining out with other couples - I really hate it, but do it out of respect for her). If we were to be invited to dinner and I said no, I KNOW her feelings would be hurt. So I go. So, to me, not getting a card would be trivial compared to turning down dinner. And, its not like I don't get her cards yearly - this year was the first time I didn't. As for the ogling comments, thats on her. I've told her such. If she wants to interpret "I still find you attractive after 22 years" as "you're just saying that to have sex with me" or "you mean you like my big chest", then there's not much I can do. I am aware that probably all sounds riduculous to you, but this is really how women see things. Please don't leave your marriage over this, this is fixable with some patience, work and communication. A thing that gets to me is comparisons. Her sisters husband has been physically abusive to her. Another husband of a friend of hers has been unemployed for 6 months and complains non stop about his lack of employment. The stories go on and on, alcohol abuse, drug dependence, yet these women stay. And here I am, thinking, damn, why are you even complaining?
whichwayisup Posted February 28, 2010 Posted February 28, 2010 Mistake was made a year ago.. After 5 sessions you two stopped going? Why? It's time to go back to marriage counselling and stick with it for OVER 6 months, going weekly. Go together and apart as each of you need one on one counselling too, it can only help in the long run.
Gunny376 Posted February 28, 2010 Posted February 28, 2010 A thing that gets to me is comparisons. Her sisters husband has been physically abusive to her. Another husband of a friend of hers has been unemployed for 6 months and complains non stop about his lack of employment. The stories go on and on, alcohol abuse, drug dependence, yet these women stay. And here I am, thinking, damn, why are you even complaining? Because that's more or less the nature of women. Now that's not an absolute. And it varies by degrees given any individual woman. That is to say they're all the same yet they're each and everyone individualistic and different. A paradox. Now get me wrong Greg ~ your not the only one who needs to self educate themselves, and when all is said and done? You may have to leave for your own sanity sake? Its entirely possible that she's one of those individuals (that its to say it has nothing to do with gender) that is simply too hard to please and/or live with?
Gunny376 Posted February 28, 2010 Posted February 28, 2010 Because that's more or less the nature of women. Now that's not an absolute. And it varies by degrees given any individual woman. That is to say they're all the same yet they're each and everyone individualistic and different. A paradox. Now get me wrong Greg ~ your not the only one who needs to self educate themselves, and when all is said and done? You may have to leave for your own sanity sake? Its entirely possible that she's one of those individuals (that its to say it has nothing to do with gender) that is simply too hard to please and/or live with? Agreed and stay there until your marriage is like a highly tuned sports car.
Mrs. Ambivalent Posted February 28, 2010 Posted February 28, 2010 When you're fighting about everything, you're fighting about nothing. Doesn't seem like this is not fixable if you want it to work. The ups and downs are hard, I know, but really it seems like mostly just a communication problem. And when the marriage counseling is just starting to work it's not the time to stop. That's like going off of meds cuz you feel better even though you still need the meds to completely heal. Seems like she's looking for reasons to be angry. To me that means she's just angry. Something deep down. Years of her thinking you don't 'get' her, childhood stuff, is this all there is to life, etc.. She's angry and taking it out on you and picking on the little things. Again, time for therapy. If she's always angry and it really has nothing to do with you, you can't ever do enough to make her happy. She needs to make herself happy. It's like a well that will never be full. No matter what you do. Also you mentioned how her friends are all in bad marriages so she should be happy that yours is not like theirs. To be fair that's not the way to look at it. Just because her marriage is better than her friend's marriages doesn't mean she should settle for less. To me that's like saying 'well at least I don't beat you so be happy, dammit'. Dramatic and not the same but you get my meaning. Good luck. FWIW I also don't think it's time to leave, just think you have work to do. But I know how you feel, living with an angry person. My H is angry at the world and it seems like I'm always at the recieving end of his anger management problem. So I get it. But seems like you have something salvageable.
Author Greg_1963 Posted February 28, 2010 Author Posted February 28, 2010 Mistake was made a year ago.. After 5 sessions you two stopped going? Why? It's time to go back to marriage counselling and stick with it for OVER 6 months, going weekly. Go together and apart as each of you need one on one counselling too, it can only help in the long run. 1. Cost - at $150 a pop, per week, it was getting expensive. Insurance only covered individual, not couples. 2. The first two sessions, I laid it all out on the table about how I felt. There was a lot of back and forth, where the counselor wrote down a TON of notes. The one revelation was when the counselor said to my W, "Do you realize you said you can be a real bitch to your husband?" My W said yes, to where the counselor then said, "Do you realize you said it 15 times?" So from there my W was the primary focus of the counselor - from there, some issues came out about her mother and how she was raised....to which the therapist responded that individual counseling for her would probably be a good idea (I was already in IC myself at the time). But laying it out those weeks did bring a sense of relief, being that we had a neutral referee to monitor the discussions. I'm still a little peeved about the whole thing, jumping the gun about leaving is probably a bit premature, though. I'll give the MC a call tomorrow and set up another appointment.
carhill Posted February 28, 2010 Posted February 28, 2010 So, does anyone have some advice here? Sure.... if you got on well with your past MC, give him or her a call tomorrow and set something up. If other, get a referral and make an appointment for this week. Question: Within or outside of MC, give me an example of your W taking responsibility for her own behaviors where said behaviors have impacted you negatively and you have communicated that dynamic to her. Question: Do you communicate with 'I' and 'feeling' statements? 'I feel unappreciated' is a good example which I think could apply here. If so, response? Question: How do you communicate boundaries? 'This is unacceptable to me' is an example of such verbiage. Fill in the appropriate blanks as to what 'this' is. TBH, what MC provided me was clarity. I was, over time, about 14 months in our case, able to clearly see the unhealthy behaviors on my part, as well as defined incompatibilities. Had we both been willing to work on achieving a balance, the M might have survived. That's the key... 'both'. M is a union. It takes two. Hope it works out for you
Author Greg_1963 Posted February 28, 2010 Author Posted February 28, 2010 Seems like she's looking for reasons to be angry. To me that means she's just angry. Something deep down. Years of her thinking you don't 'get' her, childhood stuff, is this all there is to life, etc.. She's angry and taking it out on you and picking on the little things. Again, time for therapy. If she's always angry and it really has nothing to do with you, you can't ever do enough to make her happy. She needs to make herself happy. It's like a well that will never be full. No matter what you do. You know, its not just me she's angry at. We have a 19 y/o who mentions it to me all the time, how Mom is blasting her for no real reason, picking on little things as you say. Its almost like we're all walking on eggshells around here. You never know which person you're going to get each day. The behavior is odd, being that W is an exercise fanatic, training for her next triathalon - you'd figure all that exercise would burn off some stress and anxiety. I do believe some of it comes from our teenager - not that she's a bad kid, quite the contrary, she's an angel....but very wishy-washy concerning her future. Not sure which major to take in college, not sure where she wants to go her freshman year - I'm very laid back and I don't press her too much, whereas Mom wants to micromanage her collegiate experience. My attitude is that she's an adult now and can make her own choices...so I'm sure thats not helping.
2sunny Posted February 28, 2010 Posted February 28, 2010 1. Cost - at $150 a pop, per week, it was getting expensive. Insurance only covered individual, not couples. 2. The first two sessions, I laid it all out on the table about how I felt. There was a lot of back and forth, where the counselor wrote down a TON of notes. The one revelation was when the counselor said to my W, "Do you realize you said you can be a real bitch to your husband?" My W said yes, to where the counselor then said, "Do you realize you said it 15 times?" So from there my W was the primary focus of the counselor - from there, some issues came out about her mother and how she was raised....to which the therapist responded that individual counseling for her would probably be a good idea (I was already in IC myself at the time). But laying it out those weeks did bring a sense of relief, being that we had a neutral referee to monitor the discussions. I'm still a little peeved about the whole thing, jumping the gun about leaving is probably a bit premature, though. I'll give the MC a call tomorrow and set up another appointment. so what is more expensive - counseling or divorce? i can tell you my divorce cost me much more than the 60K we paid to the attorneys. at the very least - go to individual counseling. go to find what YOU need to CHANGE about yourself. change that whether or not you stay married... find out what happy looks like for YOU.
carhill Posted February 28, 2010 Posted February 28, 2010 Crossing posts....wrt 'bitch to my husband', an excellent example of unacceptable behavior, did W, in MC, give any indication of empathy and/or caring for your feelings wrt such behaviors? If yes, describe. Also, while your W's personal issues might be better addressed in IC, did your MC attempt to achieve balance in the sessions, shifting focus back and forth rather than focusing solely on W's behaviors? To me, this balance is important and a good MC will know how far to push introspection based on the response pattern. Was your MC a psychologist?
Author Greg_1963 Posted February 28, 2010 Author Posted February 28, 2010 Question: Within or outside of MC, give me an example of your W taking responsibility for her own behaviors where said behaviors have impacted you negatively and you have communicated that dynamic to her. I have a great example. A time ago we hadn't had sex in over two months. I was tired of being rejected night after night, no matter what approach I tried. One night she just yelled, "go find it elsewhere and leave me alone". This caught me off guard, and I shut down for the next 4 days. I told her how painful that was, how little she valued the marriage by telling me to screw someone else. She realized how badly she hurt me and we worked through it. Question: Do you communicate with 'I' and 'feeling' statements? 'I feel unappreciated' is a good example which I think could apply here. If so, response? See above - thats when I used "I am hurt by those words. I feel undesirable and rejected when we don't make love". She did get it. Question: How do you communicate boundaries? 'This is unacceptable to me' is an example of such verbiage. Fill in the appropriate blanks as to what 'this' is. One boundary is drinking. There has been a few rare occasions where she became downright ignorant drunk and verbally abused me in the past. That boundary is strictly enforced now and hasn't happened in a long time (10 years or so) TBH, what MC provided me was clarity. I was, over time, about 14 months in our case, able to clearly see the unhealthy behaviors on my part, as well as defined incompatibilities. Had we both been willing to work on achieving a balance, the M might have survived. That's the key... 'both'. M is a union. It takes two. Hope it works out for you So what happened? Did he refuse to go to MC?
carhill Posted February 28, 2010 Posted February 28, 2010 (edited) Cost - at $150 a pop, per week, it was getting expensive. Insurance only covered individual, not couples. Yeah, as 2sunny mentioned, in reality, emotional health and a salvaged M or amicable D are far 'cheaper' than the other path. I valued it so much, I spent some of my retirement on MC. All tolled, MC cost me over 14 months about the same as about 15 hours of my lawyer's time. You do the math Did he refuse to go to MC? No, *she* didn't see the point in continuing MC; I agreed and we agreed to divorce amicably, which is what we are doing. MC did not save the M but did facilitate a healthy D, in our case. YMMV BTW, you mentioned your W responding positively to your boundaries and communication methods. Does that persist? Edited February 28, 2010 by carhill
Author Greg_1963 Posted February 28, 2010 Author Posted February 28, 2010 Crossing posts....wrt 'bitch to my husband', an excellent example of unacceptable behavior, did W, in MC, give any indication of empathy and/or caring for your feelings wrt such behaviors? If yes, describe. What does wrt mean? Yes, she did...she basically acknowledged being bitchy and from what I remember did express some remorse over it. Also, while your W's personal issues might be better addressed in IC, did your MC attempt to achieve balance in the sessions, shifting focus back and forth rather than focusing solely on W's behaviors? To me, this balance is important and a good MC will know how far to push introspection based on the response pattern. Was your MC a psychologist? I'd have to say it was more 25/75 - 15 minutes spent on me, 45 on the W. MC was a psychologist, and a woman.
Author Greg_1963 Posted February 28, 2010 Author Posted February 28, 2010 Yeah, as 2sunny mentioned, in reality, emotional health and a salvaged M or amicable D are far 'cheaper' than the other path. I valued it so much, I spent some of my retirement on MC. All tolled, MC cost me over 14 months about the same as about 15 hours of my lawyer's time. You do the math This is food for thought. No, *she* didn't see the point in continuing MC; I agreed and we agreed to divorce amicably, which is what we are doing. MC did not save the M but did facilitate a healthy D, in our case. YMMV BTW, you mentioned your W responding positively to your boundaries and communication methods. Does that persist? Sorry bout that. As for the boundaries, I have to admit, it does most of the time. When push really came to shove and I refused to be talked to a certain way, she changed her attitude. I saw a different person.
carhill Posted February 28, 2010 Posted February 28, 2010 wrt= with regard to Wrt to showing 'remorse' about 'being bitchy', did such persist outside of MC or was it situational to the MC sessions themselves? YMMV, but IME the process really started 'sticking', meaning that noticeable behavior change was persistent, after about 8 months of sessions. TBH, I think your MC should've been more balanced regarding your respective 'work', especially if your W has a hard time and/or issues with introspection. You can direct tasking within MC. Be assertive.
PWSX3 Posted February 28, 2010 Posted February 28, 2010 I would like to suggest a book called Boundaries by Henry Cloud. might help with the respect you need. Doesn't mean to put down laws, but puts boundaries on what you are willing to do.... Don't know if you are a religious person but lot of churches have counselors that don't charge as much. Maybe your local church could help. I have to agree, spending the money to save a marriage is a lot better then spending it on the aftermath of a divorce.
Mrs. Ambivalent Posted March 1, 2010 Posted March 1, 2010 Your wife sounds like my husband. We have a teenage son who has said to me many times in the past year or so 'Dad gets mad for no reason'. 'Why is dad always so mad?'. We often feel we're walking on eggshells and we don't know what kind of night we'll have until he walks through the door. It's a tough way to live. I think if I confronted my H a few years ago and did some serious counseling I think we might have made it. Or we might have been divorced sooner, not sure. Now I feel it's too late and I'm planning my exit strategy right now. All the while I wish I didn't have to go down that path. For us I just think it's too late. There's too much hurt and pain and too many differences for us to work it out. With the threat of leaving he has been much better, a little more level. But it feels like he's faking it. Just white knuckling his way through. Not sure what else to say. In my experience I know that in the past I thought to myself 'if we had sex more, if I kept the house cleaner, if the kids didn't have friends spend the night on weekends, if I made more money, fill in the blank, fill in the blank....things would be better'. But after much soul searching and much reading on emotional abuse and angry and controlling men, I have realized that it's not me it's him. It doesn't always matter what I do, it won't be enough to not make him an angry person. Last summer there was a minor communication problem with who was going to pick up our son from a friends and he was so mad he followed me out to the car yelling and swearing at me then kicked my new car after I got in to try to leave the situation (he apparently wasn't done verbally attacking me in front of our kids and was mad I was trying to leave). Also last summer he berated me for using the leftover hamburger that was purchased for patties and browning it for my pasta. That lead to a big verbal lesson for me about how I don't know how to handle money, why would I do that when hamburger is more expensive to purchase that way. Just absolute madness. To be yelling at me about hamburger. A year ago he went to pick up my car from the shop and even though I told him where the keys were hidden he couldn't find them (since he forgot what I said) so he called me (I had my phone off since I was with a client) and left me 3 of the nastiest messages on my VM, yelling and swearing at me because he couldn't find the keys. It's not normal behavior. And it leaves you thinking if you could just make sure you don't do anything to make them angry then they won't be angry. But it's not true. They'll still be angry because it's not you. You can read my thread if you want to see the whole story but it's long because I can't tell a short story. Hope you find the answers you're looking for. It helps to talk it out so glad you're here.
mimidarlin Posted March 1, 2010 Posted March 1, 2010 Something is missing in this conversation. Greg doesn't know what to do and communication is the obvious problem in the marriage. He doesn't understand what his wife is trying to say...when they're arguing about trivial matters etc. Does she understand him? Does she see what efforts he is making? I sense an anger in Greg over being unappreciated and no recognition over what he does do. I am a woman and I got caught in the same cycle as his wife. We can be so caught up in what we think we need that we don't appreciate what is given to us. Marriage and Individual counseling is a must. By the way...my psychologist codes our sessions as being individual. My insurance covers it that way. I never asked him to do this or not to do it. Maybe you both can go to individual sessions and have the partner join once in awhile.
Gunny376 Posted March 1, 2010 Posted March 1, 2010 Initially I thought communication was the problem also ~ but in that Greg's wife was trying to communicate and Greg wasn't picking up on the message. And that very well be, but I think less so now that this thread has feed out a little more. Greg I think your hearing her loud and clear, and that you just don't like what your hearing. Clearly your wife has issues. Anger management being one of them. Unresolved issues with her Mother and her childhood, and God only knows what else. It was bad enough that your not to interrupt her while she watches "her shows" but to repeatedly turn you down for sex? There's no fixing this! Not by yourself? And from your posts, it would seem that the wife hasn't any desire to make the necessary changes to meet your needs. Many women don't understand that sex to men is how many men feel wanted, needed, appreciated, desired ~ loved. And that when in a LTR (Long Term Relationship) and we're rejected that it makes us feel like lepers. Relationships, especially marriage can be complicated as you know. Easy to get into, can oftentimes be difficult to maintain, and a real pain in the @ss to get out of. Its the one that cares the least that controls the relationship, and IMHO that would not be you. In speaking of boundaries and comfort zones ~ she's in hers. She's got things just the way she wants them. And it seems you catch a lot of flak when you attempt to assert yourself and re-define them. In comes the anger and communication break-down, a never ending spiral repeated over and over again. And there's no doubt in my military mind that there's an internal power struggle going on. The dynamics of the marriage have to change in order for you to have a minimum of your needs as a man, a husband, an individual and human being meet ~ and she seems not to be giving an inch. And from your posts? Its doesn't seem that your asking for all that much? A little acknowledgement, respect, appreciation, affection? And I really don't belive that's too much for any one person to ask for. The wife doesn't seem to understand that a little means a lot? Her shows? Give me a freaking break! This is 2010! We've got these dirt relatively dirt cheap things called VCR's and DVD-R. I've got to admit I'd be pretty PO if I had to play second fiddle to Oprah myself? Obviously your not a priority to and in your wife's life. Is this marriage 'fixable'? Yes. But you can't do it alone by your lonesome. It may take 'leaving' (using a 2x4 across the forehead ~ figuratively speaking) to get her to wake up?
LisaUk Posted March 1, 2010 Posted March 1, 2010 If your wife is all over your @zz about any and everything, even little things? She's not bitching just to be complaining? She's attempting to communicate the way that she needs you to interact with her so that she feels wanted, needed, appreciated and love. And you haven't been listening. Or at least your not getting the message (inferring) that she's be saying (implying). . Exactly Gunny. I do understand this is a union, but do I need to consult her on every single move that is made? I mean, I don't ask her if I should mow the lawn - I do it. I don't sit her down and say, "ok, what do you think about me doing the laundry?" I just grab the baskets and get busy. She is the same way - she doesn't ask me if she can go for a run, she simply grabs her stuff and tells me she's going for a jog. No of course not, BUT, holidays are important, not like mowing the lawn. It means something to her b/c she wants to know you value her opinion and feelings on how you spend your holidays. A thing that gets to me is comparisons. Her sisters husband has been physically abusive to her. Another husband of a friend of hers has been unemployed for 6 months and complains non stop about his lack of employment. The stories go on and on, alcohol abuse, drug dependence, yet these women stay. And here I am, thinking, damn, why are you even complaining? Ok fair enough she has it better than a lot of people, but doesn't that tell you something? Doesn't that tell you that actually she must be very unhappy and unfilled if these small things are bothering her? It means something to her, that's all that matters and you can address this in counselling, this is workable with some effort on both your parts. Something is missing in this conversation. Greg doesn't know what to do and communication is the obvious problem in the marriage. He doesn't understand what his wife is trying to say...when they're arguing about trivial matters etc. Does she understand him? Does she see what efforts he is making? I sense an anger in Greg over being unappreciated and no recognition over what he does do. All I have said so far is how your wife is probably feeling, I do understand how upsetting and emotionally draining this is for you too Greg.
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