To tell or not (mainly for WSs)

March 2, 2010

OWoman, if they don't know whether they want to stay or leave, only know that they at some point want to come clean, is it in their best interest to wait to tell until they have chosen a path or should they tell anyway in the hopes that telling might help them sort out what they want?

If "help them sort out what they want" is code for "make the decision for them", then yes, it may certainly do that. By bringing someone else into the knowledge loop who has their own agency and can make their own decision whether to stay or go, the WS who tells would be ceding agency - or at least, sole agency, and hence control over the outcome. This is attractive for many MMs who are paralysed by indecision - but it's short-termism at best, and simply absolves them of ever choosing, consigning them to be passengers in their lives and to be bound by the outcomes of another's choosing. By not actively choosing, the WS will not seize agency and is unlikely to resolve the issues that kept them in the state of indecision.

March 2, 2010

If "help them sort out what they want" is code for "make the decision for them", then yes, it may certainly do that. By bringing someone else into the knowledge loop who has their own agency and can make their own decision whether to stay or go, the WS who tells would be ceding agency - or at least, sole agency, and hence control over the outcome. This is attractive for many MMs who are paralysed by indecision - but it's short-termism at best, and simply absolves them of ever choosing, consigning them to be passengers in their lives and to be bound by the outcomes of another's choosing. By not actively choosing, the WS will not seize agency and is unlikely to resolve the issues that kept them in the state of indecision.

This seems a good analysis especially if the BW chooses not to stay in the marriage. The MM can then go to the OW with the thought that when it came to the crunch the choice to stay married was taken away from him. Sadly it doesn't seem to me that the underlying "split' in him has been miraculously healed. If he truly is a split-self then another person (the BW) taking away one of his options just doesn't heal him any more than if the OW decided to end the A.

OTOH if the BW wants to "work on the marriage" and asks the MM to end the A -what is he to do then? if he decides to end it then he has made a choice but he may then flip-flop (as these split-selfs do) in a manner agonising to all.

It always gets back to the origins of the split-self and what it takes to heal that. Given that the view seems to be that it requires a great deal of therapy, my guess is that some go through life like this - perhaps wreaking havoc in the lives of those they pair up with along the way.

I have said the above on the basis that the split-self is some sort of universally recognised (by experts) condition. My personal view is that these men have a set of other characteristics that makes them behave that way - a tendency to "cake-eat", rationalise and manipulate being among them.

March 2, 2010

If "help them sort out what they want" is code for "make the decision for them", then yes, it may certainly do that. By bringing someone else into the knowledge loop who has their own agency and can make their own decision whether to stay or go, the WS who tells would be ceding agency - or at least, sole agency, and hence control over the outcome. This is attractive for many MMs who are paralysed by indecision - but it's short-termism at best, and simply absolves them of ever choosing, consigning them to be passengers in their lives and to be bound by the outcomes of another's choosing. By not actively choosing, the WS will not seize agency and is unlikely to resolve the issues that kept them in the state of indecision.

Very interesting, thank you, OWoman. That explains my MM's apparent lack of considering what comes after telling. It is just another way of letting the decision be made for him, something he has been desiring all along.

Edited March 2, 2010 by jennie-jennie

March 2, 2010

This seems a good analysis especially if the BW chooses not to stay in the marriage. The MM can then go to the OW with the thought that when it came to the crunch the choice to stay married was taken away from him. Sadly it doesn't seem to me that the underlying "split' in him has been miraculously healed. If he truly is a split-self then another person (the BW) taking away one of his options just doesn't heal him any more than if the OW decided to end the A.

OTOH if the BW wants to "work on the marriage" and asks the MM to end the A -what is he to do then? if he decides to end it then he has made a choice but he may then flip-flop (as these split-selfs do) in a manner agonising to all.

It always gets back to the origins of the split-self and what it takes to heal that. Given that the view seems to be that it requires a great deal of therapy, my guess is that some go through life like this - perhaps wreaking havoc in the lives of those they pair up with along the way.

I have said the above on the basis that the split-self is some sort of universally recognised (by experts) condition. My personal view is that these men have a set of other characteristics that makes them behave that way - a tendency to "cake-eat", rationalise and manipulate being among them.

I want to comment on this as well, but just got a phone call.

March 2, 2010

It is just another way of letting the decision be made for him, something he has been desiring all along.

... which isn't deciding. As Myrtle said, it's not going to resolve the split self. He will simply carry that unresolved split into his next R - whether the M, the A-become-R or some other R. Until he's able to face his issues and do the work, he's going to remain high-risk on the R front.

March 2, 2010

This seems a good analysis especially if the BW chooses not to stay in the marriage. The MM can then go to the OW with the thought that when it came to the crunch the choice to stay married was taken away from him. Sadly it doesn't seem to me that the underlying "split' in him has been miraculously healed. If he truly is a split-self then another person (the BW) taking away one of his options just doesn't heal him any more than if the OW decided to end the A.

OTOH if the BW wants to "work on the marriage" and asks the MM to end the A -what is he to do then? if he decides to end it then he has made a choice but he may then flip-flop (as these split-selfs do) in a manner agonising to all.

It always gets back to the origins of the split-self and what it takes to heal that. Given that the view seems to be that it requires a great deal of therapy, my guess is that some go through life like this - perhaps wreaking havoc in the lives of those they pair up with along the way.

I have said the above on the basis that the split-self is some sort of universally recognised (by experts) condition. My personal view is that these men have a set of other characteristics that makes them behave that way - a tendency to "cake-eat", rationalise and manipulate being among them.

... which isn't deciding. As Myrtle said, it's not going to resolve the split self. He will simply carry that unresolved split into his next R - whether the M, the A-become-R or some other R. Until he's able to face his issues and do the work, he's going to remain high-risk on the R front.

I believe you guys are hitting the nail on the head here. Myrtle, I love of course that you are putting it all in a split-self perspective.

My MM has said that much depends on his wife's reaction to the confession.

If she would use the affair to impose guilt upon him and in the long run change the marriage dynamics in a negative way, that would make his mind up to end the marriage.

If she on the other hand would show willingness to work on turning the marriage into a more intimate relationship, more like the relationship he and I have, that might very well make his mind up in favor of the marriage, which could very well be the start of flip-flopping just like you guys are saying.

Thanks for helping me sort this out. It really is so helpful to have the input from both BS and OW.

So going into therapy whilst continuing both the marriage and the extramarital relationship might not be such a bad idea after all then?

March 2, 2010

I believe you guys are hitting the nail on the head here. Myrtle, I love of course that you are putting it all in a split-self perspective.

My MM has said that much depends on his wife's reaction to the confession.

If she would use the affair to impose guilt upon him and in the long run change the marriage dynamics in a negative way, that would make his mind up to end the marriage.

If she on the other hand would show willingness to work on turning the marriage into a more intimate relationship, more like the relationship he and I have, that might very well make his mind up in favor of the marriage, which could very well be the start of flip-flopping just like you guys are saying.

He's being very limited in his view, allowing only two possible outcomes: - she guilt-trips him, or she catches a wake-up from the news. In reality, there are many many more possibilities, including ones that involve measures of both of those he's considered. It's also very naive of him to think that she would leave the agency in his hands - both of those scenarios assume that the M continues - just with her either grumpy or accommodating. He's made no conceptual provision for her dumping him, without him having chosen to end things with her - leaving him to mourn the loss of a R he still valued enough not to want to end - leaving him bereft, deprived of agency, with unfinished business - and liable to "flip-flopping" (sorry, that term makes me think of those beach thongs Ozzies wear. In the UK they call them flip-flops...)

OTOH if she takes the agency in another way - by, say, fighting for the M, meeting all his needs but setting her own agenda (like, NC with Jen) he's still going to feel torn. On paper, all of his needs are being met - but still, he didn't do the choosing... and the chances of him sticking to such an agreement will be low. He will feel split - because it's not just the emotional closeness, honesty etc that will be the issue, it's also the person behind those (Jen) and a whole package that comes along with that, that he would be losing.

Or, she could put the ball in his court - and refuse to make a call and risk being his "soft option", obliging him to choose one way or another. Will he be any more able to make the call, simply because she knows?

If it really is as algorithmic as he's presenting it (if she does A, I'll choose B; if she does X, I'll choose Y) then he needs a full set of every possible option, and his intended response - otherwise it's just another cop-out. It will be an easy excuse if she does something "unexpected", leaving him without a plan of action, to carry on as before... as undecided as ever.

Thanks for helping me sort this out. It really is so helpful to have the input from both BS and OW.

So going into therapy whilst continuing both the marriage and the extramarital relationship might not be such a bad idea after all then?

The therapy is a good idea - but whether or not he chooses to sustain one or both Rs during therapy he'd need to review once he knew how much, and what, therapy would demand of him. For some, continuing the Rs helps (as a support); for others, NC or LC is better, as it allows them to focus on the issues of the therapy without the distractions that Rs bring / allow. I don't think one size fits all on this.

March 2, 2010

The therapy is a good idea - but whether or not he chooses to sustain one or both Rs during therapy he'd need to review once he knew how much, and what, therapy would demand of him. For some, continuing the Rs helps (as a support); for others, NC or LC is better, as it allows them to focus on the issues of the therapy without the distractions that Rs bring / allow. I don't think one size fits all on this.

I should refine that question:

So going into therapy whilst continuing both the marriage and the extramarital relationship and putting off confessing might not be such a bad idea after all then?

I hear what you are saying about NC (although I would prefer to call it "putting the EMR on hold") and LC, just wondering about the confessing part.

He's being very limited in his view, allowing only two possible outcomes: - she guilt-trips him, or she catches a wake-up from the news. In reality, there are many many more possibilities, including ones that involve measures of both of those he's considered. It's also very naive of him to think that she would leave the agency in his hands - both of those scenarios assume that the M continues - just with her either grumpy or accommodating. He's made no conceptual provision for her dumping him, without him having chosen to end things with her - leaving him to mourn the loss of a R he still valued enough not to want to end - leaving him bereft, deprived of agency, with unfinished business - and liable to "flip-flopping" (sorry, that term makes me think of those beach thongs Ozzies wear. In the UK they call them flip-flops...)

OTOH if she takes the agency in another way - by, say, fighting for the M, meeting all his needs but setting her own agenda (like, NC with Jen) he's still going to feel torn. On paper, all of his needs are being met - but still, he didn't do the choosing... and the chances of him sticking to such an agreement will be low. He will feel split - because it's not just the emotional closeness, honesty etc that will be the issue, it's also the person behind those (Jen) and a whole package that comes along with that, that he would be losing.

Or, she could put the ball in his court - and refuse to make a call and risk being his "soft option", obliging him to choose one way or another. Will he be any more able to make the call, simply because she knows?

If it really is as algorithmic as he's presenting it (if she does A, I'll choose B; if she does X, I'll choose Y) then he needs a full set of every possible option, and his intended response - otherwise it's just another cop-out. It will be an easy excuse if she does something "unexpected", leaving him without a plan of action, to carry on as before... as undecided as ever.

Very valid and thought-provoking input. I will contemplate on this for a bit and bring it up to discussion with my MM. I just want to add that of course he has realized that his wife might choose to end the marriage, which would in a sense be a relief to him as it would relieve him of the decision-making.

March 2, 2010

It's the pain you see them in that's the worst. The mistrust I deserve. But they don't deserve the pain of betrayal or mistrust.

Some would say you have to see the pain to feel true remorse. Don't know if that's true though.

I think those who say that may be BS who simply want the WS to suffer every consequence possible for their actions. I'm not saying that's a bad thing. It's just my thoughts on where that thought process originates.

My MM has said that much depends on his wife's reaction to the confession.

If she would use the affair to impose guilt upon him and in the long run change the marriage dynamics in a negative way, that would make his mind up to end the marriage.

If she on the other hand would show willingness to work on turning the marriage into a more intimate relationship, more like the relationship he and I have, that might very well make his mind up in favor of the marriage, which could very well be the start of flip-flopping just like you guys are saying.

So, he says that to you jennie? It really seems to leave you out of the long-term equation if she chooses to work on the marriage. It's almost like saying he would prefer to have the type of relationship he has with you with his wife. Do you hear that in what he's saying? I would not like someone leaving me on pins and needles like that. I know you may think what will be, will be -- but does it bother you any to hear him say it?

I've not said that to my XAP, but I have thought before if I could only have the sexual passion and intimacy I had in my affair relationship with my husband -- our relationship would be perfect. That's what I meant when I said it would be nice to combine the two men. My husband has all the other nice qualities a woman would look for in a man.

So going into therapy whilst continuing both the marriage and the extramarital relationship might not be such a bad idea after all then?

I know you're not asking me, but it would be very difficult to work on me while still carrying on both relationships. I have to be honest -- I would prefer to be alone while getting this therapy, but it's not like I can put my husband on a shelf and tell him to stay there while I sort myself out.

March 2, 2010

So, he says that to you jennie? It really seems to leave you out of the long-term equation if she chooses to work on the marriage. It's almost like saying he would prefer to have the type of relationship he has with you with his wife. Do you hear that in what he's saying? I would not like someone leaving me on pins and needles like that. I know you may think what will be, will be -- but does it bother you any to hear him say it?

I've not said that to my XAP, but I have thought before if I could only have the sexual passion and intimacy I had in my affair relationship with my husband -- our relationship would be perfect. That's what I meant when I said it would be nice to combine the two men. My husband has all the other nice qualities a woman would look for in a man.

I know you're not asking me, but it would be very difficult to work on me while still carrying on both relationships. I have to be honest -- I would prefer to be alone while getting this therapy, but it's not like I can put my husband on a shelf and tell him to stay there while I sort myself out.

I am always interested in your opinions, Samantha!

It is as I have said before, a catch 22. My MM wishes he had had the knowledge he has gained through our relationship before entering our relationship, so he could have given his marriage a proper chance before getting involved with someone else.

I have asked him that very question: If he could have the type of relationship with his wife that he has with me, would he prefer that? I think the answer is that if he had had that to begin with, he would never have looked outside his marriage. But now that he has looked outside, it is not easy to take me out of the equation.

I think it boils down to what OWoman said above:

On paper, all of his needs are being met. ... He will feel split - because it's not just the emotional closeness, honesty etc that will be the issue, it's also the person behind those (Jen) and a whole package that comes along with that, that he would be losing.

March 2, 2010

That's a very good point. It is very difficult to give up the person. He will never have exactly what he has with you with his wife. I agree with what OWoman said about him being at high risk also. I worry about that with myself. If the problems in my marriage relationship are not (or cannot be) resolved, won't I always be looking for something else? My sister told me she thinks I have always felt like I missed out on something by getting married so early.

March 2, 2010

Jennie

You are the only one (I think) posting in this thread with a MP thinking about telling and it seems that you are trying to decide if it would be best for him to tell (on his timetable) or not. So....

Do you ever wonder if encouraging him to continue the deception would set a bad precedent for acceptable behavior in the event that he did divorce and pursue an exclusive R with you?

Do you think that you have moved his "moral" barometer in terms of his treatment of women and his notions of what should happen if the dynamics of a committed relationship change in a way that is no longer fulfilling to him?

Do you ever worry about the fact that cheating is more acceptable to him now? (Or do you think this is even the case?) If you do think this is the case do you think this has any implications for you if he does divorce and pursue a committed R with you?

To the OP sorry if this is a t/j. It came from Jennies questions regarding the timing and circumstances of her MM possibly telling his wife.

Jennie I hope you know I am not trying to be offensive. Really interested in your thoughts on my questions but I understand if you don't want to answer.

March 2, 2010

Jennie

You are the only one (I think) posting in this thread with a MP thinking about telling and it seems that you are trying to decide if it would be best for him to tell (on his timetable) or not. So....

Do you ever wonder if encouraging him to continue the deception would set a bad precedent for acceptable behavior in the event that he did divorce and pursue an exclusive R with you?

Do you think that you have moved his "moral" barometer in terms of his treatment of women and his notions of what should happen if the dynamics of a committed relationship change in a way that is no longer fulfilling to him?

Do you ever worry about the fact that cheating is more acceptable to him now? (Or do you think this is even the case?) If you do think this is the case do you think this has any implications for you if he does divorce and pursue a committed R with you?

To the OP sorry if this is a t/j. It came from Jennies questions regarding the timing and circumstances of her MM possibly telling his wife.

Jennie I hope you know I am not trying to be offensive. Really interested in your thoughts on my questions but I understand if you don't want to answer.

Phoenix, no worry, I know you have a kind heart.

How do I make a long story short? You ask very interesting questions here.

I will need to start at the beginning. One reason my MM contacted me after all those years was because he had started to doubt that there was a God. He had unfinished business with me since our youth. If there exists a god, my MM could meet me in heaven. If no god exists, he had one lifetime only to set things right.

So this is where my MM was at when we reconnected. The foundation of his life was already shaking.

My MM has told me that being with me was like watching his personality burn up. I would say in many ways he is a different person today than he was before our relationship. Or is he? Has he just shedded layers that were not his own but were there through upbringing and societal rules?

My morals are based on what I consider morally correct. His morals were based on what society considers correct. I believe he has moved closer and closer to me throughout these years. Yet, he has not changed his outer world in accordance to this, just his inner world and his life with me.

Our relationship is very much based on honesty and revealing what is going on deep inside us. So no, I am not afraid that he will lie to me. I sincerely hope and believe that if he falls in love with another woman while in an exclusive relationship with me, he will not stay with us both, but move on to her. He will never again marry anyone. He has understood that he feels too obliged by such a vow, and would not make it once again. He knows too that I am only committed to him as long as I love him and only him, and thus he knows I ask no more of him.

Is cheating more acceptable to him now? I asked him yesterday why he is not having sex with his wife since I at present (long distance relationship) am out of his reach and he of course has sexual needs and she is laying there right next to him in bed available to him. Yes, why? he said, I thought I was a cheating bast@rd, but it seems I am more faithful than one would suspect.

March 2, 2010

Phoenix, no worry, I know you have a kind heart.

How do I make a long story short? You ask very interesting questions here.

I will need to start at the beginning. One reason my MM contacted me after all those years was because he had started to doubt that there was a God. He had unfinished business with me since our youth. If there exists a god, my MM could meet me in heaven. If no god exists, he had one lifetime only to set things right.

So this is where my MM was at when we reconnected. The foundation of his life was already shaking.

My MM has told me that being with me was like watching his personality burn up. I would say in many ways he is a different person today than he was before our relationship. Or is he? Has he just shedded layers that were not his own but were there through upbringing and societal rules?

My morals are based on what I consider morally correct. His morals were based on what society considers correct. I believe he has moved closer and closer to me throughout these years. Yet, he has not changed his outer world in accordance to this, just his inner world and his life with me.

Our relationship is very much based on honesty and revealing what is going on deep inside us. So no, I am not afraid that he will lie to me. I sincerely hope and believe that if he falls in love with another woman while in an exclusive relationship with me, he will not stay with us both, but move on to her. He will never again marry anyone. He has understood that he feels too obliged by such a vow, and would not make it once again. He knows too that I am only committed to him as long as I love him and only him, and thus he knows I ask no more of him.

Is cheating more acceptable to him now? I asked him yesterday why he is not having sex with his wife since I at present (long distance relationship) am out of his reach and he of course has sexual needs and she is laying there right next to him in bed available to him. Yes, why? he said, I thought I was a cheating bast@rd, but it seems I am more faithful than one would suspect.

Thank you for answering my questions Jennie. You have given me food for thought. I'm going to give this some thought and possibly start a new thread so as not to t/j this one.

I will say though, I think you and I know (and possibly your MM knows as well) that cheating entails far more that just who you are having sex with.

March 2, 2010

Thank you for answering my questions Jennie. You have given me food for thought. I'm going to give this some thought and possibly start a new thread so as not to t/j this one.

I will say though, I think you and I know (and possibly your MM knows as well) that cheating entails far more that just who you are having sex with.

Just to make clear, you did understand I meant that he is faithful to me? So are you saying then that he is cheating on me by staying married? I see it more as he is carrying bagage.

Edited March 2, 2010 by jennie-jennie

March 2, 2010

Just to make clear, you did understand I meant that he is faithful to me? So are you saying then that he is cheating on me by staying married? I see it more as he is carrying bagage.

I understood that you meant he was being faithful to you and not having sex with his wife.

You and I may disagree on this (I know you are relatively happy with your R) but I think your MM is cheating on both you and his wife in different ways. You want more and I would bet his wife wants more than she is getting too.

AND Jennie...his wife is not baggage. She is a woman just like you and me. She has emotional needs, needs affection, needs love just like you and I do. She is no less deserving.

AND no you are not the one who promised her those things. But your MM did. Just because MM has decided he can not or will not fulfill her need for those things anymore that does not make her baggage.

March 2, 2010

I understood that you meant he was being faithful to you and not having sex with his wife.

You and I may disagree on this (I know you are relatively happy with your R) but I think your MM is cheating on both you and his wife in different ways. You want more and I would bet his wife wants more than she is getting too.

AND Jennie...his wife is not baggage. She is a woman just like you and me. She has emotional needs, needs affection, needs love just like you and I do. She is no less deserving.

AND no you are not the one who promised her those things. But your MM did. Just because MM has decided he can not or will not fulfill her need for those things anymore that does not make her baggage.

Oh, Phoenix, I did not mean it in a rude way. Sorry if it sounded like that. I just meant that I did not consider it cheating that he is not done with his past. And of course he may never be, he might decide that the extramarital relationship is his past and not his marriage.

Edited March 2, 2010 by jennie-jennie

March 3, 2010

Oh, Phoenix, I did not mean it in a rude way. Sorry if it sounded like that. I just meant that I did not consider it cheating that he is not done with his past. And of course he may never be, he might decide that the extramarital relationship is his past and not his marriage.

No problem Jennie. Thank you for clarifying your comments.

March 3, 2010

I believe you guys are hitting the nail on the head here. Myrtle, I love of course that you are putting it all in a split-self perspective.

...

Just remember that one woman's split-self guy is another woman's cake-eater.

Seriously I believe that "split-self" is just a technical term to describe a "selfish, dishonest cake-eater". Just as "selfish, dishonest cake-eater" can be the slang term for a "split-self".

Not every split-self has an extra-marital affair and not every cake-eater is a split-self.

I believe that my H is one of these. Like your MM he doesn't want to exist in an empty-shell marriage and has sought fulfillment outside the marriage.

But our marriage clearly met many, maybe even most of his needs and to be honest, most of mine were met too. So we have decided together to go "all-out" for the relationship we both want. Time will tell if we succeed.

One thing I note though, is that if he is a "split-self" then I'm not sure that a rebuilding/recovery of our M, will heal the split, if ever. Just as your MM leaving his wife for you, does not guarantee any split will be healed.

What if anything can be done about that? Is it just something the man has to work on by himself? Must it be with therapy? Can a partner help?

March 3, 2010

Just remember that one woman's split-self guy is another woman's cake-eater.

Seriously I believe that "split-self" is just a technical term to describe a "selfish, dishonest cake-eater". Just as "selfish, dishonest cake-eater" can be the slang term for a "split-self".

Not every split-self has an extra-marital affair and not every cake-eater is a split-self.

I believe that my H is one of these. Like your MM he doesn't want to exist in an empty-shell marriage and has sought fulfillment outside the marriage.

But our marriage clearly met many, maybe even most of his needs and to be honest, most of mine were met too. So we have decided together to go "all-out" for the relationship we both want. Time will tell if we succeed.

One thing I note though, is that if he is a "split-self" then I'm not sure that a rebuilding/recovery of our M, will heal the split, if ever. Just as your MM leaving his wife for you, does not guarantee any split will be healed.

What if anything can be done about that? Is it just something the man has to work on by himself? Must it be with therapy? Can a partner help?

Myrtle, according to the split self theory the BS is also a split self. Is that true for you? Have you gone to IC?

March 3, 2010

Myrtle, according to the split self theory the BS is also a split self. Is that true for you? Have you gone to IC?

Theory....I understand better.

March 3, 2010

Some would say you have to see the pain to feel true remorse. Don't know if that's true though.

I think that's the one of the few honest statements in this entire thread. Why do you think that almost every recovery program involves honest communication and an effort to make amends to those we've wronged? A WS that doesn't tell deprives themself of the only true chance to understand what they've done and the only real opportunity to fix it.

I'm happy for you -- honestly. I just don't think your husband's reaction would be the norm.

Anne wasn't "lucky" or "fortunate" in her husband's reaction, she was fearless and brave. Pretty different approach from "I hope he doesn't find out"...

Mr. Lucky

March 3, 2010

Myrtle, according to the split self theory the BS is also a split self. Is that true for you? Have you gone to IC?

I have never had an EMR, nor ever been or will be an OW. I have had several previous relationships though (I was mid-thirties when we married) so have been serially monogamous I guess.

I went to IC to deal with the aftermath of d-day as I literally felt I was falling to pieces (like my sense of self was disintegrating). It was never suggested to me that I was "split-self", and my own subjective view of myself is that I'm not.

It's not clear to me anyway why it would be the case that the BW is a split-self but not the OW.

One thing you said is:

If she on the other hand would show willingness to work on turning the marriage into a more intimate relationship, more like the relationship he and I have, that might very well make his mind up in favor of the marriage, which could very well be the start of flip-flopping just like you guys are saying.

I interpreted this as you saying your MM might genuinely decide to try to rebuild the marriage. If he loves his wife and tells her he chooses her, and becomes fully honest and intimate with her again (which is what he would need to do to be genuine, rather than just paying lips-service to staying in the marriage) then I can't see why that should start the "flip-flopping". It should only be if he was not sincere with her that the flip flopping would occur.

March 3, 2010

I have never had an EMR, nor ever been or will be an OW. I have had several previous relationships though (I was mid-thirties when we married) so have been serially monogamous I guess.

I went to IC to deal with the aftermath of d-day as I literally felt I was falling to pieces (like my sense of self was disintegrating). It was never suggested to me that I was "split-self", and my own subjective view of myself is that I'm not.

It's not clear to me anyway why it would be the case that the BW is a split-self but not the OW.

One thing you said is:

If she on the other hand would show willingness to work on turning the marriage into a more intimate relationship, more like the relationship he and I have, that might very well make his mind up in favor of the marriage, which could very well be the start of flip-flopping just like you guys are saying.

I interpreted this as you saying your MM might genuinely decide to try to rebuild the marriage. If he loves his wife and tells her he chooses her, and becomes fully honest and intimate with her again (which is what he would need to do to be genuine, rather than just paying lips-service to staying in the marriage) then I can't see why that should start the "flip-flopping". It should only be if he was not sincere with her that the flip flopping would occur.

Myrtle, first I want to assure you that I am in no way "out to get you", but in fact truly interested about your thoughts since it is strongly claimed that both spouses in a split self family are split selves.

I understand it to be that one spouse might seek relief through an affair, while the other spouse for example turns to communication with one of the children instead of the partner.

It is said that in contrast to the bulimic family where the child is the carrier of the symptom of the dysfunctional family, one of the spouses carry the symptom in the split self family, in the cases we are talking about by having an affair.

Thus it is no surprise to me that you have not had any EMRs.

For the marriage to become intimate and whole both spouses need to work on their inner split. What I meant about flip-flopping is that it is said that until the WS has healed his inner split he needs the OW to be in contact with his emotional self. Thus prematurely letting go of her will lead to flip-flopping, even when the intention is good of wanting the marriage to work.

I too have wondered whether the OW is also a split self. It does not seem to be the case, if it is not just that it is not mentioned because of disinterest. (The OW gets one chapter, while the spouses get the rest of the book.) I presume since the OW is a tool for the WS to come in contact with his emotional self, she must herself be in contact with her emotional self, or what do you think?

March 3, 2010

Myrtle, first I want to assure you that I am in no way "out to get you", but in fact truly interested about your thoughts since it is strongly claimed that both spouses in a split self family are split selves.

I really do think it unlikely that I am. My previous long-term relationships (of 8 years, not marriages) were ended by me with no flip-flopping. If I don't/didn't want to be in them then I'm not; it's that simple. We had shared assets (houses, cars etc) and pets (no children) and sorted everything out together.

I understand it to be that one spouse might seek relief through an affair, while the other spouse for example turns to communication with one of the children instead of the partner.

No neither my H nor I did this. Our children are both boys and not the sort of boys who would even want to be their parents' emotional support. I must admit I do know some mothers and daughters who are like this, but not me and my kids.

It is said that in contrast to the bulimic family where the child is the carrier of the symptom of the dysfunctional family, one of the spouses carry the symptom in the split self family, in the cases we are talking about by having an affair.

Not sure that I understand this - but it's probably not relevant to me anyway.

Thus it is no surprise to me that you have not had any EMRs.

This conclusion is probably based on the false premises above.

For the marriage to become intimate and whole both spouses need to work on their inner split. What I meant about flip-flopping is that it is said that until the WS has healed his inner split he needs the OW to be in contact with his emotional self. Thus prematurely letting go of her will lead to flip-flopping, even when the intention is good of wanting the marriage to work.

Ah but if he decides to get in contact with his emotional self in conjunction with, and with the support of his wife (whom he genuinely loves), then the OW becomes redundant for that particular purpose. It all depends I think, on how sincere/genuine he is in his love for his wife (and vice versa). If he's just "pretending", or giving it a go to satisfy society's expectations of him to at least attempt to save the marriage, then he may well do as you say.

I too have wondered whether the OW is also a split self. It does not seem to be the case, if it is not just that it is not mentioned because of disinterest. (The OW gets one chapter, while the spouses get the rest of the book.) I presume since the OW is a tool for the WS to come in contact with his emotional self, she must herself be in contact with her emotional self, or what do you think?

Maybe it is usual that the BW is a split self and the OW not - I simply don't know. I really doubt that I am, for a number of reasons. Maybe this means that my H and I will have a better than average chance of getting what we both definitely want - but I don't yet know this either. It's my belief that he is genuine in saying he wants to stay with me and has cut off all contact with the OW a long time ago now. To me he is clearly making an effort (and succeeding) to communicate more openly with me and be intimate with me (I mean in the sense of conveying his feelings and thoughts). It helps that we have a close physical connection too.

I guess you are trying to get some insight into your own MM and perhaps his wife -in the sense that you wonder/worry how she will react and whether they will be able to re-establish true intimacy and affection. I guess also that that possibility would leave you in a lonely and unhappy position. It is a big risk for you.

It's probably not worth trying to translate my situation to your MM's.

Edited March 3, 2010 by moaningmyrtle

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