Did feminism kill off real men?

[Mr White]

Yet that is -exactly- what modern mainstream feminism does by focusing its gender polarization on the lowest common denominator of men. Any time men's issues or complaints about the status quo are brought, the discussion will quickly degenerate into a claim by one side that all the deadbeat dads, sexual predators and greedy old white male businessmen are out there beating and killing women and children, poisoning them with corrupted products, with abandon.

 

The faulty logic goes: There are bad men out there>>> we must vigilantly protect ourselves and our children against the bad men through legislation that just so happens to grow the power of the government.

 

Who are the real "bad men" in this propagandized way of approaching social action?

 

 

That's just the tip of the iceberg. The whole US lifestyle by now is arranged according to women's priorities. Giant, too expensive house (for the kids!), giant gaz-guzling van or SUV (for the kids!), frowning upon all sensible male hobbies (because they can endanger the kids!);

In other words, anything is justified as long it appeases a woman or a kid, and that's one of the reasons we're in such a mess. Most men would be content living in a 1-2 bedroom apt or a house, but noo, we need to get the best of everything (for the kids!).

 

the thing is, kids are just fine. They are safer and most provided for than ever in history, so can we please stop letting intellectually underdeveloped and helpless creatures rule us???

[meerkat stew]

That's just the tip of the iceberg. The whole US lifestyle by now is arranged according to women's priorities. Giant, too expensive house (for the kids!), giant gaz-guzling van or SUV (for the kids!), frowning upon all sensible male hobbies (because they can endanger the kids!);

 

In other words, anything is justified as long it appeases a woman or a kid, and that's one of the reasons we're in such a mess. Most men would be content living in a 1-2 bedroom apt or a house, but noo, we need to get the best of everything (for the kids!).

 

the thing is, kids are just fine. They are safer and most provided for than ever in history, so can we please stop letting intellectually underdeveloped and helpless creatures rule us???

 

Put men in jail, debtor's prison, unconstitutionally and illegitimately... for the children. Surveil the internet, tax it... for the children. Put people in jail for smoking a joint, or even doing meth, in private, create millions of felons out of sick drug addicts... to keep the children safe. Create all manner of abusive and unnecessary regulations and laws... for the children. Force families to undergo massive housing and educational debt, to work like slaves to fuel and keep up with the consumer culture... for the children. Keep us all consuming... for the shareholders of the corporations that buy the government and polarize genders to manipulate, or rather... -ahem-... for the children. Etc., etc.

 

You are exactly right, and who benefits from the marketing messages that lead to the situation you describe? The sellers to wasteful consumer America? the government who manipulates women and men through appeals to feminism, polarizing women against men(and vice versa) and protecting children, to grow its power?

 

Both... and they are in bed together to accomplish their various goals. It has grown past an issue of Republicans or Democrats, past right or left, there is no difference today. The choice of how to approach and answer the question "did feminism kill real men?" is there for all of us individually.

 

Feminism, or rather the powers behind its polarizing, manipulative use, are killing us all, not just real men. And I'm talking about the general concept, not just radically. The feminization of U.S. culture, whether it goes under the guise of softer feminism, or more militant, is strangling us all.

 

Ironically, who gets to pay in the end, who gets to pay the ultimate tithe to the "church of the child" that our culture has become? Who will get the final bill?

 

The children will pay.

[single]

That's just the tip of the iceberg. The whole US lifestyle by now is arranged according to women's priorities. Giant, too expensive house (for the kids!), giant gaz-guzling van or SUV (for the kids!), frowning upon all sensible male hobbies (because they can endanger the kids!);

In other words, anything is justified as long it appeases a woman or a kid, and that's one of the reasons we're in such a mess. Most men would be content living in a 1-2 bedroom apt or a house, but noo, we need to get the best of everything (for the kids!).

 

the thing is, kids are just fine. They are safer and most provided for than ever in history, so can we please stop letting intellectually underdeveloped and helpless creatures rule us???

 

 

Haven't read all this thread but i would say it's us men that killed the real man.

 

Too many guys trying to be something else because they think that's what women want when what I think alot of women want (although not all) is a real man who deep down is a nice guy but has a bit of an edge to him.

[donnamaybe]

what I think alot of women want (although not all) is a real man who deep down is a nice guy but has a bit of an edge to him.

 

BINGO! We HAVE a winnahahahah!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[Mr White]

Haven't read all this thread but i would say it's us men that killed the real man.

 

Too many guys trying to be something else because they think that's what women want when what I think alot of women want (although not all) is a real man who deep down is a nice guy but has a bit of an edge to him.

 

Yup, that's the resentment underlying my post. I, and many others, feel boxed into a narrowly defined role - i.e. if you want to find a girl, you better go through the above motions (the job, the ring, the house in the suburbs). If you want to pursue your dreams, god help you if they don't involve the above. That would not be such a problem if women fulfilled their part of the bargain. But they no longer do - they are encouraged to experiment with all sets of new roles (which is fine), while at the same time, men are expected to be stuck in their old roles X 5 (which is not fine).

 

I fit the description of "what women want" being a decent person and all, having a bit of an edge etc. But that isn't of much help, because although this gets you women, eventually they may begin to resent you for the very same reasons. Having an edge and liking adventure is at odds with tying half your income into a McMansion.

The point being that the pressures are out there, the result of a culture that put women and children on piedestal, and any genuinely male pursuit is automatically seen as "bad" unless it advances the above priorities.

 

So, it's really hard to maintain boundaries and sense of self. More often than not it may aalso involve being ready to tell a woman to walk if she starts giving you **** about things not progressing on HER schedule. And this is where men truly deserve part of the blame - for too easily surrendering, for being too concerned about pissing women off. I say, be as decent as possible, but don't be afraid to piss them off:mad:! They've got nowhere to go! Their othr choices are a) spineless nerdy wimps; or b) extremely rich and unattainable men who don't want anything to do with them.

Edited March 3, 2010 by Mr White

[donnamaybe]

If you guys are choosing women who only want you for the luxuries you can provide, whose fault is that?

 

There really ARE other women out there who don't have dollar signs where their pupils belong.

[Mr White]

If you guys are choosing women who only want you for the luxuries you can provide, whose fault is that?

 

There really ARE other women out there who don't have dollar signs where their pupils belong.

 

We're not talking about gold diggers here. A guy with unconventional career or one who does not prioritize achieving middle class standard of living has NO chance with women (past college age). ALL women will tell you that they're looking for "stability", defined in a very rigid way - nesting , and that's a problem no matter how much or how little you make.

 

So, don't give me this crap that "not all women are gold diggers" . Of course they are. Not in the sense we see in holliwood stories, but in the sense that no woman would ever want you ONLY for who you are, regardless of income. This is only true for very young women (teens/early 20s).

[donnamaybe]

We're not talking about gold diggers here. A guy with unconventional career or one who does not prioritize achieving middle class standard of living has NO chance with women (past college age). ALL women will tell you that they're looking for "stability", defined in a very rigid way - nesting , and that's a problem no matter how much or how little you make.

 

So, don't give me this crap that "not all women are gold diggers" . Of course they are. Not in the sense we see in holliwood stories, but in the sense that no woman would ever want you ONLY for who you are, regardless of income. This is only true for very young women (teens/early 20s).

 

I'm sorry, but I would class a woman as a "gold digger" if her house has GOT to be a certain square footage or her car has to have Lexus or BMW or what have you on it.

 

I prefer to choose a man by how he treats my heart. Yes, I expect that he be able to pay his own way financially, and if we reside together, I would HOPE that he could share in the upkeep and maintenance of our home (which does NOT have to be a 4,000 sq. ft. showcase of Ethan Allen furniture ). I guess for some guys, that's just too much to expect.

[Mr White]

I'm sorry, but I would class a woman as a "gold digger" if her house has GOT to be a certain square footage or her car has to have Lexus or BMW or what have you on it.

 

I prefer to choose a man by how he treats my heart. Yes, I expect that he be able to pay his own way financially, and if we reside together, I would HOPE that he could share in the upkeep and maintenance of our home (which does NOT have to be a 4,000 sq. ft. showcase of Ethan Allen furniture ). I guess for some guys, that's just too much to expect.

 

 

Well, there you go. let me remind you about the housing mess - what do you think was the true underyling reason? the simple, but twisted idea that no matter what, you deserve home ownership, you HAVE to have a home, because THAT's what you do when you meet a girl and start a family . While in reality very few people have the resources to purchase a home on a sound financial basis. I am single (as in 'no dependents' - I have a gf) and I make more than the median FAMILY income in the US, I live in a cheap part of the country, and I still think that purchasing a home would be stupid at this point in my life. Many people in far worse situation than mine are sucked into the idea of getting "the nest", just because that's what's expected of them. Very few men would care about where they live, but for a woman - her life is not "complete" unless there is a nest in the suburbs. Hence, the alignment of "feminist" :rolleyes: values and social pressures, and the resulting resentment.

[Jersey Shortie]

Haven't read all this thread but i would say it's us men that killed the real man.

 

Too many guys trying to be something else because they think that's what women want when what I think alot of women want (although not all) is a real man who deep down is a nice guy but has a bit of an edge to him.

 

Right on Single.

 

That's just the tip of the iceberg. The whole US lifestyle by now is arranged according to women's priorities. Giant, too expensive house (for the kids!), giant gaz-guzling van or SUV (for the kids!).

 

 

Do you have many male friends? I know so many men that buy the huge trucks, hummers and SUVs because they want them. And the huge houses because they want to show off. US lifestyle is not merely a product of opulent desires from women. It's a product of opulent desires from society. And to insinuate that it's merely a problem because of women, is completely atrociously ridiculous. You can’t be that bain.

 

Yup, that's the resentment underlying my post. I, and many others, feel boxed into a narrowly defined role -

 

Do you seriously think women do not get boxed into narrowly defined roles that are just a much of hardship that men contribute to? Or is that just less important compared to *your* needs?

 

 

I fit the description of "what women want" being a decent person and all...

 

You don't even like women! Blaming women for all downfalls and calling them names is being a "decent person"?

 

...having a bit of an edge etc. But that isn't of much help, because although this gets you women, eventually they may begin to resent you for the very same reasons. Having an edge and liking adventure is at odds with tying half your income into a McMansion.

 

Here is a clue about women. We do like men that like adventure and pursue their dreams. But we don't want to be left in the dust and came back to when he needs to scratch an itch. We want to go on the adventure with the man. That doesn't make women evil or selfish in the slightest.

 

 

They've got nowhere to go! Their othr choices are a) spineless nerdy wimps; or b) extremely rich and unattainable men who don't want anything to do with them.[FONT=Times New Roman][sIZE=3]

 

We have lots of places to go. And that's what really sticks in your crawl.

 

So, don't give me this crap that "not all women are gold diggers" . Of course they are. Not in the sense we see in holliwood stories, but in the sense that no woman would ever want you ONLY for who you are, regardless of income. This is only true for very young women (teens/early 20s).

 

So you have no expectation on looks, youth and attraction when you date? You purely want women *only* for who she is. Not for what she looks like? Yeah right! Stop pretending that your so noble and that you only ever want a woma nfor "who she is". Men go on and on all day long about how women need to measure up physically and then get all upset and whiney when women judge them for equally shallow terms.

Edited March 3, 2010 by Jersey Shortie

[donnamaybe]

Well, there you go. let me remind you about the housing mess - what do you think was the true underyling reason? the simple, but twisted idea that no matter what, you deserve home ownership, you HAVE to have a home, because THAT's what you do when you meet a girl and start a family . While in reality very few people have the resources to purchase a home on a sound financial basis. I am single (as in 'no dependents' - I have a gf) and I make more than the median FAMILY income in the US, I live in a cheap part of the country, and I still think that purchasing a home would be stupid at this point in my life. Many people in far worse situation than mine are sucked into the idea of getting "the nest", just because that's what's expected of them. Very few men would care about where they live, but for a woman - her life is not "complete" unless there is a nest in the suburbs. Hence, the alignment of "feminist" :rolleyes: values and social pressures, and the resulting resentment.

 

Ahhh, I get it. You've ruined your credit, thus you can't buy a house (like I did - little old single mom me on a moderate income that I earn all by myself ). And it's a VA loan (yes, I was in the military - me - not a husband) with a fixed rate. Seriously. Why would someone throw money away on a rental when you can purchase for a lower monthly payment? Someone with lousy credit. THAT'S who!

 

Lay the blame where it ought to lie. Yourself. Not on some fabricated idea of a woman you haven't even been able to get a date with yet.

Edited March 3, 2010 by donnamaybe

[Mr White]

Ahhh, I get it. You've ruined your credit, thus you can't buy a house (like I did - little old single mom me on a moderate income that I earn all by myself ). And it's a VA loan (yes, I was in the military - me - not a husband) with a fixed rate. Seriously. Why would someone throw money away on a rental when you can purchase for a lower monthly payment? Someone with lousy credit. THAT'S who!

 

Lay the blame where it ought to lie. Yourself. Not on some fabricated idea of a woman you haven't even been able to get a date with yet.

 

Nice try Last time I checked my score was 725. That's "excellent" credit to your math majors. Let's not forget paid-off car and below-average student loans. So eat it .

Here's who wouldn't buy a house --> somebody who's smart enough to avoid:

1) maintenance costs

2) insurance costs

3) property taxes

4) mortgage insurance costs (if you put less than 20% down)

5) interest costs

6) the hassle of trying to sell the darn thing once your circumstances change (i.e. mobility costs)

7) (maybe) homeowners' association dues, depending on hood

 

Buying a home can make sense only if you stay put for at least about 10 years. Until 5-10 years have elapsed the whole "why rent if you can buy" argument is precisely the brainwashing that I'm talking about. Consider the above costs, plus the ridiculous idea that a depreciating physical asset is a "source of wealth", and there you have it. A generation of losers enslaved to overpriced cardboard boxes.

[Els]

So you have no expectation on looks, youth and attraction when you date? You purely want women *only* for who she is. Not for what she looks like? Yeah right! Stop pretending that your so noble and that you only ever want a woma nfor "who she is".

I agree. I'll only give credibility to a man's whines about gold-diggers if he'd happily marry the 4', 200-lbs woman with half her face scarred and missing one arm as long as she's loving, faithful, caring, etc.

 

If he will, then yes, he has every right to complain about women having 'material' standards.

 

Looks and money are equally superficial. Both are transient and no reflection of who we 'truly are inside'.

[donnamaybe]

Yeah, okay. "Smart" enough.

 

Anyone who would choose to avoid "maintenance costs" at the expense of paying off someone ELSE'S mortgage is anything but "smart."

 

Ahh, I'm going to enjoy going home tonight to my 40 acre spread and cooking on my barbecue, dreaming of allll that equity building, building, building.

Edited March 3, 2010 by donnamaybe

[donnamaybe]

Oh, and I'd like to add, MY "real man" knows how to do plumbing, carpentry, dry wall, electrical...

 

I suspect there are MANY who are envious of his skills they WISH they had.

[Mr White]

Yeah, okay. "Smart" enough.

 

Anyone who would choose to avoid "maintenance costs" at the expense of paying off someone ELSE'S mortgage is anything but "smart."

 

Ahh, I'm going to enjoy going home tonight to my 40 acre spread and cooking on my barbecue, dreaming of allll that equity building, building, building.

 

Peace Also forgot to mention: 8) closing costs/fees and 9) inflation (not a direct cost but part of the housing value increase is simply inflation). to make money on a house, its value needs to increase faster than inflation, which is problematic on many levels, in many regions).

 

Don't get me wrong, I'd like to have my own castle eventually, but getting one just for the sake of it can easily go wrong. All I oppose is the idea that "that's what people your age do", without carefully considering the consequences.

[donnamaybe]

Peace Also forgot to mention: 8) closing costs/fees and 9) inflation (not a direct cost but part of the housing value increase is simply inflation). to make money on a house, its value needs to increase faster than inflation, which is problematic on many levels, in many regions).

 

Don't get me wrong, I'd like to have my own castle eventually, but getting one just for the sake of it can easily go wrong. All I oppose is the idea that "that's what people your age do", without carefully considering the consequences.

 

Peace back atcha!

 

You know, most of the people who created the housing crisis are greedy mortgage investors and consumers who were either stupid or chose to turn a blind eye to reality (can anyone say subprime or adjustable rate mortgage?) You don't sound like someone who would be so ignorant as to take that kind of bait. I know I wasn't. I was offered an ARM, and no freakin' WAY was I going to put my eggs in a basket the bottom could fall out of at any time! It cost me more initially, but I knew what I could afford. However, how can someone know if they can afford a rate that has yet to materialize? That's just foolishness.

 

Now if you wind up with a woman who is hell bent on getting a huge house and is urging you to take that "easy way in" on a gamble that things will pan out in the future, she is my idea of a greedy person with an instant gratification problem. Sorry, but you do what's good for the family (even if your family is just the two of you). You don't jump off a cliff without a parachute because you enjoy the free fall.

[calizaggy]

Mr White is correct..

 

I know several married couples, and the story is almost always the same..(none of the women are "golddiggers")

 

They meet while living in an apartment.. They move out of the city to buy a small home.. After a couple years the woman NEEDS a BIGGER home.. So after constant nagging they either signed up for an interest only loan, or borrowed as much as possible to get that bigger home.. Now I cannot stop laughing seeing how much money they lost..I thought real estate always appreciated??

 

I would rather live in the city around people.. Most women would rather live in some safe little subdivision far away from everyone..That's why men do not prioritize buying a home, along with many other reasons..

[blue.iris]

We're not talking about gold diggers here. A guy with unconventional career or one who does not prioritize achieving middle class standard of living has NO chance with women (past college age). ALL women will tell you that they're looking for "stability", defined in a very rigid way - nesting , and that's a problem no matter how much or how little you make.

 

So, don't give me this crap that "not all women are gold diggers" . Of course they are. Not in the sense we see in holliwood stories, but in the sense that no woman would ever want you ONLY for who you are, regardless of income. This is only true for very young women (teens/early 20s).

 

 

Well then you've got your definitions wrong. Radical feminists are going to be the most anti-nesting women going, they don't want kids, they're even against makeup for god's sake. Feminism is not your enemy if nesting, buying stuff, and giving kids priority are bothering you. Consumerism and the capitalist society on the other hand...

 

As for not wanting 'you' for who 'you are,' You can say that about men and women both. It also depends on the situation. A male doctor is not likely to start a serious relationship with a high school dropout nail salon worker. Neither is a female business analyst likely to start a serious relationship with a dude who works in wallmart. What on earth does this have to do with feminism?

[donnamaybe]

Mr White is correct..

 

I know several married couples, and the story is almost always the same..(none of the women are "golddiggers")

 

They meet while living in an apartment.. They move out of the city to buy a small home.. After a couple years the woman NEEDS a BIGGER home.. So after constant nagging they either signed up for an interest only loan, or borrowed as much as possible to get that bigger home.. Now I cannot stop laughing seeing how much money they lost..I thought real estate always appreciated??

 

I would rather live in the city around people.. Most women would rather live in some safe little subdivision far away from everyone..That's why men do not prioritize buying a home, along with many other reasons..

 

So this is the woman's fault? Was she able to secure the mortgage without her husband's signature? Or is he a milquetoast wimp who caves to his wife's demands at her every whim?

 

Who is REALLY the problem in THAT little scenario?

 

Hence, many women are STILL looking for their "real man."

[calizaggy]

So this is the woman's fault? Was she able to secure the mortgage without her husband's signature? Or is he a milquetoast wimp who caves to his wife's demands at her every whim?

 

Who is REALLY the problem in THAT little scenario?

 

Hence, many women are STILL looking for their "real man."

 

I agree, it is men caving into female pressure/shaming tactics..

 

You just did the same to Mr White. You implied he has horrible credit so he CANT buy a home..Shaming, putting him down etc..

[donnamaybe]

I agree, it is men caving into female pressure/shaming tactics..

 

You just did the same to Mr White. You implied he has horrible credit so he CANT buy a home..Shaming, putting him down etc..

 

Oh, puhLEEEZZZ stop with the pity party!

 

All you guys have done, Mr. White included, is to blame women for EVERYTHING wrong in your pathetic lives. All I did was agree with him that women who expect a huge house and a fancy car are greedy, and he kept hammering at me, spewing negativity about women. So take your "poor me and Mr. White" attitude and put it where no one else has to see it. M-kay?

 

I laid out a perfect example of a hard working woman who bought her own house on her own modest income, 40 acres included, using common sense, and you just can't STAND that! That's the REAL problem here. I don't need some man sucking up to me every time I crook my little finger to get my needs and wants taken care of, and you just can't handle it. Face it. Some of us just DO NOT NEED MEN! We may WANT a man in our lives (and thankfully for me, I HAVE a "real man"), but we certainly DO NOT NEED YOU!

 

How's THAT for a little dose o' feminism for ya?!

[blue.iris]

I agree, it is men caving into female pressure/shaming tactics..

 

You know who wouldn't want a house, kids, expensive 'trendy' clothes and handbags, surburbia? Radical feminists! If you only saw them for who they really were, you'd find that you actually have a lot in common with them! Which might lead to love in the city, in a small apartment (which she won't clutter with expensive shoes because she is sensible and only owns a pair).

 

That was sarcasm. sorry.

 

It's not female pressure/shaming tactics. It's the way society has progressed into this mindless consumerism obsessed culture where people buy things they can't afford.

[donnamaybe]

It's not female pressure/shaming tactics. It's the way society has progressed into this mindless consumerism obsessed culture where people buy things they can't afford.

 

THANK YOU. As if a bunch of women are running out to buy a Hummer.

[Woggle]

Mr White is correct..

 

I know several married couples, and the story is almost always the same..(none of the women are "golddiggers")

 

They meet while living in an apartment.. They move out of the city to buy a small home.. After a couple years the woman NEEDS a BIGGER home.. So after constant nagging they either signed up for an interest only loan, or borrowed as much as possible to get that bigger home.. Now I cannot stop laughing seeing how much money they lost..I thought real estate always appreciated??

 

I would rather live in the city around people.. Most women would rather live in some safe little subdivision far away from everyone..That's why men do not prioritize buying a home, along with many other reasons..

 

Very true. I loved living in New York but my ex wanted a nice house on the Jersey Shore. I made lemons out of lemonade after we divorced because I actually like living by the water but that is besides the point. My house is fully paid off now so if my wife wants a new one she can pay for it. I am 31 and pay no mortgage or rent and I am not giving that up for anything. Men's concern about gold diggers is yet another example of men being called sexist for protecting ourselves.

 

I also agree with the comment about men being afraid to piss off women. Once men stop caring about that it is like a weight is lifted off your shoulders. I get bombs thrown at me all the time on here and I take it as a badge of honor if certain women don't like me.