That old chestnut - 'Once a cheater...'

[Snowflower]

I believe my husband had an affair due to me not wanting to have sex which created an emotional disconnect between us. While I do not approve of either of our actions I have come to an understanding as to why he strayed. Maybe I am wrong in thinking this way, but I think if we could have communicated more effectively during that time he would not have had his affair. I kept running from the problem every time he addressed it, I kept thinking there was something wrong with me, why didn't I want to have sex anymore, but I did nothing to help fix the problem.

 

Oh LD, been there, done that. I can understand what you are saying here. You describe a lot of similarities to my situation.

 

I too, had to understand why my husband strayed. It had to do with a serious disconnect between us. One that he tried to voice to me on several occasions but that I just (mostly) ignored. Some of it was about sex--he wanted it, me not so much. Eventually, he got quiet about it--didn't 'bother' me with it. A few months later he had an affair. It was 100% his decision but it makes me ill (and SO angry at myself) to think I likely could have prevented it. I don't take the blame for what he did but I take a lot of the blame for the problems leading up to his A--I realized recently I still haven't forgiven myself for that. I'm still angry at myself for being so clueless and self-absorbed.

 

Is your marriage better now? Do you think your H will stray again? I don't think mine will--we're still working on our relationship, apart from issues surrounding the A, but relationships are always a work in progress.

[wheelwright]

WW I could really identify with your post about the love dying and the A renewing that feeling in yourself again. I remember before my A that I felt dead inside I kept thinking something hormonal happened to me after the births of my children. I really felt like it was a chore to have sex with my husband and kissing him...forget it. I can understand why my H had his infidelity. I had my infidelity in revenge of his, but did not expect to fall in love...but I did. At this point I too realized my love for my H had died (well the "in love" feeling.)

 

Since the ending of my A I have began to reconnect with my H. I know I love him. The intimacy is getting better. I still do not enjoy kissing him I hope this will change in the future too. Our communication has improved ten fold.

 

I hope one day you can reconnect with your H on a level that is comfortable for you.

 

 

I am happy for you in your reconnection - I just posted a response to you on another thread in OW/OM on a different subject though.

 

What you wrote above speaks volumes to me, because my disconnect happened about a year after the birth of our first child. I remember he wanted sex one week after the birth - the stitches were barely out! - I should take it as a compliment. But TBH, we still had sex regularly even in this first year - once/twice a week as opposed to three/four times. We were exhausted by our baby.

 

But I am also wondering if the incredible love I felt for my first born had a bearing - like I finally knew what it was to love another human being. And subconsciously (rightly? wrongly?) looked for this in my R and didn't find it.

 

I fell in love with xAP like that though - blissful, ecstatic etc.

 

Perhaps having kids later in life has a bearing on this - if we had had kids when we first met 19 years ago, perhaps we'd have all been loved up together?

 

I just find it interesting - exactly how the kids have a bearing on it all. Would love to hear thoughts.

[Dexter Morgan]

Does anybody else feel that repeating the act does not necessarily indicate that that person will never change?

 

Its not whether or not a person cheats again that brings the "once a cheater always a cheater". There are people that won't cheat again out of fear of losing their life, money, children, house....whatever.

Yes, marriage can appear to recover and someone can actually take steps to make sure they never cheat again.....but they are still cheaters.

 

I don't believe that someone that has decided to never actually, physically cheat again has all of a sudden dropped the desire to mess around with new people and I don't believe they don't miss the excitement they had while cheating.

 

Its like an alcoholic. they can vow and make good on never ever taking a drink of liquor again....but they are still weak and that bottle will call their name. and even a recovering alcoholic will still consider themselves an alcoholic. Because its something in THEM that allows them to be consumed by alcohol...call it a disease or a weakness. but its IN THEM.

 

just like I could never be an alcoholic because I can't stand the taste of liquor. So its not in me to be one.

 

Just like cheaters...its a character flaw that doesn't go away. Sure, they can make good on the promise to never cheat again....but its still IN THEM.

[ladydesigner]

Is your marriage better now? Do you think your H will stray again? I don't think mine will--we're still working on our relationship, apart from issues surrounding the A, but relationships are always a work in progress.

 

Yes our marriage is much better now. I don't think my H will stray again. We have discussed our feelings (both sides) about the why it happened how it made each of us feel. How we feel now. I can see now we both address issues immediately and do not let them fester. We were on the brink of separation/divorce and realized that we want to make the marriage work and start to let go of the past and move forward. Baby steps, but we are getting there. We have been getting the emotional connection back that had been missing for years. I think we have both come to realize that even the best and easiest relationships (which we both thought ours was at one time) can be tested at times and it does take work from both sides to keep it going. I think in the end we will be happy that we made the decision to stay married. I hope that we grow old together and one day look back at this time in our life and just think thank god we stayed together and didn't lose focus on what was important and meaningful in our marriage.

[wheelwright]

Its not whether or not a person cheats again that brings the "once a cheater always a cheater". There are people that won't cheat again out of fear of losing their life, money, children, house....whatever.

Yes, marriage can appear to recover and someone can actually take steps to make sure they never cheat again.....but they are still cheaters.

 

I don't believe that someone that has decided to never actually, physically cheat again has all of a sudden dropped the desire to mess around with new people and I don't believe they don't miss the excitement they had while cheating.

 

Its like an alcoholic. they can vow and make good on never ever taking a drink of liquor again....but they are still weak and that bottle will call their name. and even a recovering alcoholic will still consider themselves an alcoholic. Because its something in THEM that allows them to be consumed by alcohol...call it a disease or a weakness. but its IN THEM.

 

just like I could never be an alcoholic because I can't stand the taste of liquor. So its not in me to be one.

 

Just like cheaters...its a character flaw that doesn't go away. Sure, they can make good on the promise to never cheat again....but its still IN THEM.

 

You are hard line dexter.

 

Does porn count? fantasies? touching someone by accident and wondering? Are we allowed to be human? Or should the all encompassing love of our MPs prevent such thoughts (it did for me for many years)? Are we cheating if we have thoughts of straying? Do we then leave our R's immediately?

 

If we have a conversation that we see is the beginning of an EA and then walk away, have we already strayed? (This happened to me).

 

I know someone who is a hard liner like you - he doesn't do porn.

 

As for the alcoholic simile:

 

Cheating is not physically addictive

 

Alcohol is something we can all enjoy if we don't step over the line (is this porn for you? An EA for others? Who draws the line?)

 

What is your moral basis for denouncing all cheaters? Is it their cruelty? Betrayal?

 

But there are clearly moral quandaries where we would betray one person by doing X, and another by doing Y. Yet we must choose one (whistle blowing for example).

 

Do you think sexual infidelity wins over all other forms of betrayal as the worst form? What about being split? What about feelings versus morals? Do you never consider the complexity of the human heart?

 

I know it's a cliche, but does the saying 'let he who is without sin cast the first stone' mean anything to you? Are you without sin? Perhaps we should all take our hats off to you if so.

 

Have you grounded yourself in a coherent philosophy which covers all of the above?

 

Because if not, maybe you should prefix your posts with - well - maybe!

[Spark1111]

WW, I personally find Dexter's hard line refreshing. Like Bent, OW, and WF, Snowflower, Pheonix Rising, and Lizzie, (yes, Lizzie!) they own their convictions and you ALWAYS know where you stand with them.

 

Unlike so much of the emotional and ethical waffling under the name of love and romanticism one reads here on a daily basis.

 

Don't misunderstand me, I get the complexities of the heart and how painful it can all be trying to figure it out. I have lived it.

 

But Dex, does make some valid points: There are many people in unfulfilling relationships that would NEVER consider cheating an option.

 

Why is that?

 

Also, the rush of endorphins when sexually and emotionally involved with a new person is very, very addictive. Read up on it.

 

Love is a verb, a choice, a proactive action.

 

Love, should not hurt others, IMHO.

 

The rest of the scripture, after Jesus makes his point to stop the stoning of the two prostitutes, is he admonishes them "to go and sin no more."

 

And on the last point: Mental health experts believe the greatest indicator of future behavior is PAST behavior, unless a person makes a very difficult and arduous choice (accompanied by a lot of hard work) to change oneself and examine why they made the painful choices they did.

 

Once a cheater, always a cheater? Could be, unless they decide to change their behavior.

[OWoman]

As for the alcoholic simile:

 

Cheating is not physically addictive

 

... but sex can be. That physical rush, the high, the sensations and thrills. And, like any other pleasures, I imagine that for some the need to have it - enough of it - starts to outweigh the moral considerations about where and how they get it.

[White Flower]

... but sex can be [addictive]. That physical rush, the high, the sensations and thrills. And, like any other pleasures, I imagine that for some the need to have it - enough of it - starts to outweigh the moral considerations about where and how they get it.

Very true. And sex addiction is one the most difficult to overcome because it is hard to diagnose. Oftentimes it is not even taken seriously. The addict has a hard time overcoming the addiction because sex is a natural need. He/she doesn't usually know that they are looking for intimacy and love rather than a quick thrill.

[Hazyhead]

Regarding sex being addictive, if you were married to a repeat offender whom had strayed for the sex, how could you ever trust them again? Would you not forever live it doubt? That would drive me insane, constantly questioning. Could a repeat offender drawn to the sex even trust themselves?

[White Flower]

Regarding sex being addictive, if you were married to a repeat offender whom had strayed for the sex, how could you ever trust them again? Would you not forever live it doubt? That would drive me insane, constantly questioning. Could a repeat offender drawn to the sex even trust themselves?

He can't trust himself nor be trusted until he admits he is a SA (sex addict). I've been reading up on this and have discovered that intimacy is the key to overcoming SA. Once the addict feels accepted enough to reach true intimacy, he understand that he is getting what he needs and not just a cheap thrill. Intimacy disrupts the addictive cycle. Once intimacy is established, trust can be established.

[Dexter Morgan]

You are hard line dexter.

 

Does porn count? fantasies? touching someone by accident and wondering? Are we allowed to be human? Or should the all encompassing love of our MPs prevent such thoughts (it did for me for many years)? Are we cheating if we have thoughts of straying? Do we then leave our R's immediately?

 

If we have a conversation that we see is the beginning of an EA and then walk away, have we already strayed? (This happened to me).

 

everyone is going to be attracted so someone else in some way. Its natural, yes, it is human.

 

It is how we conduct ourselves that is the difference between having simple human feelings and that with the makings of a cheater.

 

does porn count? hmmm, dunno. I think to me it would. Because why would someone go to porn if I was good enough for them? they wouldn't in my view.

 

as far as seeing what is the beginning of an EA and walking away. You did walk away before it became an EA right? In some way yes, you have already strayed.

 

But lets try to stick with the absolutes here. You can bring up all the gray areas you like, but we are talking about tangible cheating whether physical or not.

 

 

I know someone who is a hard liner like you - he doesn't do porn.

 

As for the alcoholic simile:

 

Cheating is not physically addictive

 

then why is it so irressistible to some?

 

 

What is your moral basis for denouncing all cheaters? Is it their cruelty? Betrayal?

 

one both or a combination. but more to the point, I simply won't waste my time if I know someone to be a cheater. If they say they can change, hey, good for them...all well and fine. but i'm not going to take a chance on them. someone else can be the guinea pig.

 

 

Do you think sexual infidelity wins over all other forms of betrayal as the worst form?

 

to me....it ranks right up there, to me, as one of the biggest.

 

is it #1? maybe...maybe not. But off the top of my head I can't think of anything.

 

 

What about being split? What about feelings versus morals? Do you never consider the complexity of the human heart?

 

it has absolutely nothing to do with morals and everything about not wanting to waste my time on someone that more than has it in them to cheat.

 

Nope, never consider the complexity of the human heart. If someones heart tells them they want to screw someone other than the one they "claim to love", then they aint someone I'm going to want to waste any time on.

 

they can have complexities of the heart with some other poor sap.

 

 

I know it's a cliche, but does the saying 'let he who is without sin cast the first stone' mean anything to you? Are you without sin? Perhaps we should all take our hats off to you if so.

 

when it comes to the sin of cheating, yup....I am without that sin.

 

have I stole bubblegum when I was a kid, sure. have I said the Lord's name in vane, sure.

 

have I ever cheated or slept with someone elses wife? nope.

[wheelwright]

everyone is going to be attracted so someone else in some way. Its natural, yes, it is human.

 

It is how we conduct ourselves that is the difference between having simple human feelings and that with the makings of a cheater.

 

does porn count? hmmm, dunno. I think to me it would. Because why would someone go to porn if I was good enough for them? they wouldn't in my view.

 

as far as seeing what is the beginning of an EA and walking away. You did walk away before it became an EA right? In some way yes, you have already strayed.

 

But lets try to stick with the absolutes here. You can bring up all the gray areas you like, but we are talking about tangible cheating whether physical or not.

 

 

 

 

then why is it so irressistible to some?

 

 

 

 

one both or a combination. but more to the point, I simply won't waste my time if I know someone to be a cheater. If they say they can change, hey, good for them...all well and fine. but i'm not going to take a chance on them. someone else can be the guinea pig.

 

 

 

 

to me....it ranks right up there, to me, as one of the biggest.

 

is it #1? maybe...maybe not. But off the top of my head I can't think of anything.

 

 

 

 

it has absolutely nothing to do with morals and everything about not wanting to waste my time on someone that more than has it in them to cheat.

 

Nope, never consider the complexity of the human heart. If someones heart tells them they want to screw someone other than the one they "claim to love", then they aint someone I'm going to want to waste any time on.

 

they can have complexities of the heart with some other poor sap.

 

 

 

 

when it comes to the sin of cheating, yup....I am without that sin.

 

have I stole bubblegum when I was a kid, sure. have I said the Lord's name in vane, sure.

 

have I ever cheated or slept with someone elses wife? nope.

 

Great reply. I get every point. And I understand better now you say it's not about morals, but about who you want to be with. Makes sense to me better.

 

Only one point I would consider questionable. For me the greater betrayal is made by one who inflicts it with no mitigation - being messed up counts, as does confusion about love.

 

So while I could not forgive someone who had bad intent (they didn't give a **** about their SO), I would find it easier for one who just strayed (but was torn inside about their behaviour).

 

However, I see for you there may not be such a line!

[bentnotbroken]

... but sex can be. That physical rush, the high, the sensations and thrills. And, like any other pleasures, I imagine that for some the need to have it - enough of it - starts to outweigh the moral considerations about where and how they get it.

 

 

I agree. Hence the sexual addict.

[bentnotbroken]

everyone is going to be attracted so someone else in some way. Its natural, yes, it is human.

 

It is how we conduct ourselves that is the difference between having simple human feelings and that with the makings of a cheater.

 

does porn count? hmmm, dunno. I think to me it would. Because why would someone go to porn if I was good enough for them? they wouldn't in my view.

 

as far as seeing what is the beginning of an EA and walking away. You did walk away before it became an EA right? In some way yes, you have already strayed.

 

But lets try to stick with the absolutes here. You can bring up all the gray areas you like, but we are talking about tangible cheating whether physical or not.

 

 

 

 

then why is it so irressistible to some?

 

 

 

 

one both or a combination. but more to the point, I simply won't waste my time if I know someone to be a cheater. If they say they can change, hey, good for them...all well and fine. but i'm not going to take a chance on them. someone else can be the guinea pig.

 

 

 

 

to me....it ranks right up there, to me, as one of the biggest.

 

is it #1? maybe...maybe not. But off the top of my head I can't think of anything.

 

 

 

 

it has absolutely nothing to do with morals and everything about not wanting to waste my time on someone that more than has it in them to cheat.

 

Nope, never consider the complexity of the human heart. If someones heart tells them they want to screw someone other than the one they "claim to love", then they aint someone I'm going to want to waste any time on.

 

they can have complexities of the heart with some other poor sap.

 

 

 

 

when it comes to the sin of cheating, yup....I am without that sin.

 

have I stole bubblegum when I was a kid, sure. have I said the Lord's name in vane, sure.

 

have I ever cheated or slept with someone elses wife? nope.

 

 

 

Great post! I would just add, with my own values the Lord says the heart is wicked. We are flesh, the flesh wants what the flesh wants. I truly understand the argument that the heart is complex, but honestly what part of the human isn't complex. The mind, the heart, the emotions...all complex. The one thing that I hear "the heart wants what the heart wants or you can't control who you love"...(translation) I don't want to use the ability to reason rationally. I don't want to think of others, of the consequences, of the boundaries that I will cross.

[on1wheel]

Wheelright,

Yes I would consider you both a serial cheater & someone that will probably always be so.

Not to be cruel, but in my experience there are 2 types:

- thoses that have the strength/integrity to not cheat, regardless of whether there are so many things wrong in the R that it isn't much of a R at all

- those that will justify an A because of whatever they feel is lacking in their R or M. They are much more selfish.

I say this because cheating begins in your head, not in your pants...you mentally make a choice to walk down that path. You may think that you won't go all the way, but once that journey has begun I doubt anyone will stop.

Now I personally believe that a 1 time cheater can reform, if THEY WANT TO. No one can force them to change the way they think; that's where the problem lies.

But I believe that if you have cheated twice or more, well you just aren't concerned with others feelings...certainly not more than your own.

Now I know you said it's been a long time since your last A, (& I hope I am wrong for your H's sake) but I think it's just taking you longer to have the "Pro's vs Con's" scale to tip & for you to be able to justify the A in your mind.

That is just my experience that I have both seen & sadly had to be the victim of.

I wish you well & hope that you truly have seen the damage your choices cause. Cheers.

[Woggle]

A cheater can change but they have to do some serious self examination and do some serious work on themselves. They need to stop the blaming and justification for their actions and take full responsibility for what they have done. I don't see too many cheaters doing that and unless they do they will repeat the same action over and over again. That selfishness and lack of accountability that drives a person to cheat is usually an ingrained part of a person's personality.

 

Also the unfulfilling relationship excuse is bs because there are people who will always get bored with a healthy relationship with minimal drama.

[RedDevil66]

I was always adamant about not cheating and was disgusted by cheaters, then I met a married guy who took me away from my pain and I became one of the cheaters I hated.

But I was different cause I did it for love and I was better than the other cheaters.........

 

 

or so I thought. I became a person I hated. I was tortured and disgusted with myself.

I felt the "karma" from these mistakes and have seen what cheating has done to my spirit and how it's hurt myself and others.

And I'm just not that kind of person. I'm kind, caring and loving, but my actions as a cheater were unkind, sick and mean.

 

I cheated A LONG time ago and never have again, nor will I ever, not for any reasons.

It's not even so much about cheating another person, it's about cheating me

 

Not once a cheater and I think people can change but ONLY when they find thier spirits and go deeper.

Some people just get off on this pain, so they can never change.

 

Dexter, I totally disagree with your analogy as well.

Cheaters are not like addicts, unless they are serial cheaters, which in that case, they also have an addiction.

But not everyone who has a "drink" is an addict right?!

[Hazyhead]

I was always adamant about not cheating and was disgusted by cheaters, then I met a married guy who took me away from my pain and I became one of the cheaters I hated.

But I was different cause I did it for love and I was better than the other cheaters.........

 

 

or so I thought. I became a person I hated. I was tortured and disgusted with myself.

I felt the "karma" from these mistakes and have seen what cheating has done to my spirit and how it's hurt myself and others.

And I'm just not that kind of person. I'm kind, caring and loving, but my actions as a cheater were unkind, sick and mean.

 

I cheated A LONG time ago and never have again, nor will I ever, not for any reasons.

It's not even so much about cheating another person, it's about cheating me

 

Not once a cheater and I think people can change but ONLY when they find thier spirits and go deeper.

Some people just get off on this pain, so they can never change.

 

Dexter, I totally disagree with your analogy as well.

Cheaters are not like addicts, unless they are serial cheaters, which in that case, they also have an addiction.

But not everyone who has a "drink" is an addict right?!

 

A really insightful post Red Devil. I agree with you that as a cheater the person you harm more than anyone else is yourself. I too felt disgusted with my level of behaviour; I became sneaky and deceptive, stuck in my selfish warped sense of reality. And I doubt I would do it again. It's a horrible place to be.

[jennie-jennie]

A really insightful post Red Devil. I agree with you that as a cheater the person you harm more than anyone else is yourself. I too felt disgusted with my level of behaviour; I became sneaky and deceptive, stuck in my selfish warped sense of reality. And I doubt I would do it again. It's a horrible place to be.

 

This might be true for some people involved in affairs, but this description sure does not describe me. I am no different from how I have been in any other relationship, except happier perhaps.

[Hazyhead]

This might be true for some people involved in affairs, but this description sure does not describe me. I am no different from how I have been in any other relationship, except happier perhaps.

 

Thats what I admire about you though, JJ; you don't comprimise your own desires for anybody. Happiness is wonderful and so if that's how you feel then you should hang on to it. You have the past experience of other relationships to compare it to and you do truly seem content that he is the right man for you. The behaviour I talk about in myself refers to when I was seeing xMM and still with my previous partner. I hated the lies and sneaking around I had to do behind his back. He deserved better.

[jennie-jennie]

Thats what I admire about you though, JJ; you don't comprimise your own desires for anybody. Happiness is wonderful and so if that's how you feel then you should hang on to it. You have the past experience of other relationships to compare it to and you do truly seem content that he is the right man for you. The behaviour I talk about in myself refers to when I was seeing xMM and still with my previous partner. I hated the lies and sneaking around I had to do behind his back. He deserved better.

 

Got it, Hazy, I can understand that. I actually was in a relationship when MM contacted me and we began our EA/PA, but I was up front with my SO and did not hide anything from him. Well, I didn't rub it in his face either of course, but I told him the basics of my relationship with MM. Eventually I ended my relationship with my SO, just like I believe you did with your husband.

 

Thanks for the encouraging words.

Edited February 27, 2010 by jennie-jennie

[Dexter Morgan]

Dexter, I totally disagree with your analogy as well.

Cheaters are not like addicts, unless they are serial cheaters, which in that case, they also have an addiction.

 

 

 

Alcoholics can kick the addiction, but it would be all too easy for them to slip back in with the right set of circumstances.

 

Cheaters may not exactly be like addicts, whether once, twice, or serial.

But I don't believe for one minute that someone that is more than capable of cheating, and has, never sits and thinks to themselves how they wouldn't like to partake in messing around with someone else.....they just choose not to actually do it.

 

Therefore, if I know someone to have cheated, I won't waste my time with them.

 

And before anyone says anything, yes, I know I may not necessarily know if someone has cheated before....I guess thats just the chance we all will have to take. But if it was declared ahead of time, or I knew in advance, then that person isn't worth my time.

 

But not everyone who has a "drink" is an addict right?!

 

people that aren't alcoholics simply having a drink would be analogous to people who are dating, married, and being able to handle the committment or responsibility that has been put in front of them.

 

the alcoholic/addict would be analogous to cheaters...but if you prefer, serial or multiple cheaters. But I still don't have any respect for anyone that did it even once.

Edited March 1, 2010 by Dexter Morgan

[wheelwright]

If cheating didn't hurt people, would it be OK?

 

Or

 

If monogamy didn't hurt people, would it be OK?

[bentnotbroken]

If cheating didn't hurt people, would it be OK?

 

Or

 

If monogamy didn't hurt people, would it be OK?

 

 

Would what be okay?

[OWoman]

A cheater can change but they have to do some serious self examination and do some serious work on themselves. They need to stop the blaming and justification for their actions and take full responsibility for what they have done.

 

This is an interesting issue. While I'm sure it's true for many WSs, I've also seen the polar opposite - the WS who blames THEMSELF for everything, even things that cannot remotely be their fault, as a result of a role that's been ascribed to them in a R that they've progressively come to accept over time. I've known a couple of these - most recently my H. One of the things he had to learn in IC was to stop being / saying sorry. To learn the limits of his "culpability" and not to step beyond them, not to accept blame for something in order to keep the peace. He found it very difficult, and sometimes still slips into apologising for bad weather or a delayed train or a film that I'd chosen turning out to be a lemon!

 

Avoiding responsibility, and accepting inappropriate blame, are one as bad as the other, and neither is conducive to a mature R between equals.