That old chestnut - 'Once a cheater...'

[Hazyhead]

I have read many opinions on this, especially in this forum, but after reading so many stories I am now of the mindset that it's not true. So many WSs seem to be sincerely regretful and reformed and marriages really do seem to recover. One thing I have read is that if they do it twice, then they will surely cheat again. My xAP was warned by his wife after the first infidelity that another would definitely end the marriage but, after knowing how they are coping post DDay (or not really knowing at all, I suppose) and how ill he has made himself with stress this time, I don't even think that one who does it twice will certainly never reform. If she took him back I think he'd be forever grateful. I don't think he'd ever put himself and his family (they now have a son) through this again. I honestly believe that reform is possible even for a serial cheater or repeat offender. There comes a time when heartbreak and trauma can really change someone.

 

I regret my part in the affair - it's almost finished me too and that is something I have to deal with on my own, but I know he does too. And I think despite how she feels right now, there is still hope for their marriage. I know I'm likely to get a bashing here, being a guilty party, but surely I'm not alone with the opinion. Does anybody else feel that repeating the act does not necessarily indicate that that person will never change?

[PhoenixRise]

I don't believe that "once a cheater always a cheater"

 

I think people can change if they want to and if they are willing to put in the work to do so.

 

I think in many cases, the person who cheated doesn't really WANT to change. They want to have all the benefits of the affair without giving up the benefits of the marriage. So what they truly want is not to get caught. This is why you see so many repeat offenders.

 

If the MM you were involved with truly wants to change he will do so whether or not he reconciles with his W. He will be a better man because he WANTS to be a better man independent of the presence of a woman in his life.

[Hazyhead]

I don't believe that "once a cheater always a cheater"

 

I think people can change if they want to and if they are willing to put in the work to do so.

 

I think in many cases, the person who cheated doesn't really WANT to change. They want to have all the benefits of the affair without giving up the benefits of the marriage. So what they truly want is not to get caught. This is why you see so many repeat offenders.

 

If the MM you were involved with truly wants to change he will do so whether or not he reconciles with his W. He will be a better man because he WANTS to be a better man independent of the presence of a woman in his life.

 

That's a good way of looking at it. I see what you mean and I guess if we can't change for the benefit of ourselves then how could we possibly do so for someone else? But, he has to want the marriage for himself too, above everything else, otherwise the change would be insincere and not deep enough within himself, which, despite what he's told me, I think he will. I think it would take nearly losing something that you love more than yourself (his son) to really hammer it home.

 

Thanks Phoenix. You have a wise outlook.

[PhoenixRise]

That's a good way of looking at it. I see what you mean and I guess if we can't change for the benefit of ourselves then how could we possibly do so for someone else? But, he has to want the marriage for himself too, above everything else, otherwise the change would be insincere and not deep enough within himself, which, despite what he's told me, I think he will. I think it would take nearly losing something that you love more than yourself (his son) to really hammer it home.

 

Thanks Phoenix. You have a wise outlook.

 

 

Hazyhead

 

IMO whether or not he wants the marriage enough is a completely separate issue than the issue of what kind of man will he be.

 

We see here all the time WS who hold on to their marriages for dear life. They beg, they plead, they cry, they feel guilt. Do they truly want their marriages....IMO YES. They truly want their marriages and for all the reasons that various BS and AP want to ascribe to them (love, kids, finances, status, etc)

 

However

 

It is a far different thing for a WS to take a look in the mirror and decide to be a better person.

 

I see cheating as the manifestation of a character flaw. For my H, I immediately knew the issues that were at the root of his affair. I lived those issues and events too. I got it. But to me the (valid) issues didn't excuse his deliberately turning away from his own sense of character. Lying, gaslighting, deception, lack of integrity, a WS makes a conscious choice to go down that path. To me a strong character is what makes a man a man and integrity is central to that. My H had to demonstrate to me that he wanted to return to being a MAN regardless of my choice to reconcile or not. I would have had NO chance of regaining any respect for him otherwise.

 

Yes he wanted our marriage. I didn't want him back until after he demonstrated that he wanted to be a MAN more than he wanted anything else.

[Brokenlady]

Hazy,

Never is a strong word. Everyone has the capacity to change but the motivation and ability to do so is different in everyone. Given that change is hard, many avoid it --and serial cheating is a big sign of avoiding the work. Sure they can change, but would I want to bet my health on it with someone I knew had a long history of cheating? Probably not.

 

I guess I have a bit more faith in one-time cheaters. If they've really learned their lesson, it can be an oppurtunity for growth.

[wheelwright]

I guess I have to call myself a serial cheater (yikes!).

 

I had an A 10 years ago, because I wanted out of the relationship - my then partner now H didn't want kids, which was destroying me. I told my partner about the A and that I wanted to leave straight away - so no deceit or gaslighting. Not sure it was really an A in that case.

 

I also kissed another man while drunk just before that A, and had a kind of EA with him, which I attribute to completely different motives. He was a friend, said he had fallen in love me, and I was too weak/immature to turn him away completely. I learnt that lesson. There was a DDay for all concerned.

 

Now I am married to the partner I then wanted to leave - we have kids. That whole thing swung it for him. I remained faithful (didn't even look at another man) for 8 years.

 

Then things started to go wrong in the M, and I tried but failed to fix them. Then boom, I fell in love with xMOM big time. An A ensued (after much soul searching about what to do with this 'love' that was consuming me), and while I did not tell my H, I told him I wanted to split up, that I was not happy etc.

 

Apart from these infidelities, I have been faithful to the same man for 19 years.

 

I feel that the reason for each was different, and the self work I have to do different too.

 

I realise there is a similarity in that I didn't have that 'don't cross the line on any account' mentality. However, I have learnt that the pain involved is not worth having an A. I feel I would not cross that line again, in this or any other R.

 

I wonder if people here think given my history I am a hopeless serial cheater, and if so what I should do to change.

 

ps I am looking for advice/considered opinion rather than unkindness/bashing. If you think I am a hopeless case, please be constructive about it!

Edited February 22, 2010 by wheelwright
ps

[2sure]

Events, circumstance, crisis, all of those things make up who we are and as we learn and grow...of course people change.

 

Some people are capable of cheating and some are not. If someone who is capable of cheating decides not to....it doesnt necessarily mean they have changed. In my H's case, it simply means it is no longer in his best interest. So, although he may never cheat again he is the same person. A cheater. A fool.

[mmlf1988]

What I learned is that people tend to put up a front, a nice appearance, hiding the undesirable. That is nothing wrong with that. However, if I take the mere appearance as true value for the person, after a while the inner side of that person comes out and I will be truly disappointed that everything is not rosy as it seems to be. I could stay and work out the difference, or I could quit the relationship and seek some new adventure. Then the whole cycle will begin all over.

 

I will not call a serial cheater immature emotionally, just say that he/she is always romantic at heart. But the pursuit of individual happiness often waylays other people's lives. Is a serial cheater selfish? Yes. Can it be changed? Yes, it will require effort and new outlook in life. Unfortunately, the new outlook in life often comes in the price of some painful lessons.

[norajane]

Cheaters can make all the promises in the world not to cheat again, but if they 1) don't actually "get it" that what they did (are doing) was majorly f*cked up, and 2) acknowledge and accept that there is something within themselves that needs to change so they are no longer the selfish kind of people who choose to rain destruction down upon other people as a first resort, and 3) then actively DO something to develop a different perspective and behavior....then yes, they will cheat again.

 

And they will not do any of those things unless they actually WANT to. No one can compel them do it.

[wheelwright]

Events, circumstance, crisis, all of those things make up who we are and as we learn and grow...of course people change.

 

Some people are capable of cheating and some are not. If someone who is capable of cheating decides not to....it doesnt necessarily mean they have changed. In my H's case, it simply means it is no longer in his best interest. So, although he may never cheat again he is the same person. A cheater. A fool.

 

I guess this is true for me too. The decision not to cheat is always a decision because I know I am capable of it. It is not in my best interest as a moral being. It is not in my P's interest. It is not in anyone's interest. You make it sound like an xcheater (new term XC?) is in some way different in working out the self interest thing. I think they just do what the rest of us do when faced with temptation. We all choose not to stray through a form of self-interest - unless it is altruistic and that then calls the love into question.

 

Don't think this makes me that different from anyone else, unless we are talking minor %s.

 

I am not a statistic. I am someone who has been willing to cross that line in times of extreme emotional upheaval. But isn't that the case for anyone?

[wheelwright]

What I learned is that people tend to put up a front, a nice appearance, hiding the undesirable. That is nothing wrong with that. However, if I take the mere appearance as true value for the person, after a while the inner side of that person comes out and I will be truly disappointed that everything is not rosy as it seems to be. I could stay and work out the difference, or I could quit the relationship and seek some new adventure. Then the whole cycle will begin all over.

 

I will not call a serial cheater immature emotionally, just say that he/she is always romantic at heart. But the pursuit of individual happiness often waylays other people's lives. Is a serial cheater selfish? Yes. Can it be changed? Yes, it will require effort and new outlook in life. Unfortunately, the new outlook in life often comes in the price of some painful lessons.

 

I like your comments.

And 2Sure's.

 

I am feeling a bit bristly because I feel like I don't know how to work this out.

 

But I am not sure if I want a new adventure when I look outside my R. I just really don't know if that R is right for me, or if I can't leave it through fear.

 

I guess this is why the words coward and cheater are so often equated.

 

And fear can guide us to0 - not to make mistakes.

 

What I take (i know it's not my thread but I've been reflecting on this just now) from this so far is that cheaters can move on if they change.

 

Looking at my history, I have to admit this takes more than seeing the hurt you have done. It's like you said above, I have to be less romantic.

 

Quite possible after the whole heap of **** this last infidelity brought me (and others).

[JaneInVegas]

Hazy, I really hate stereo-types. There are those who make a mistake once and never repeat it again. There are those who make the same mistake multiple times and finally learn their lesson after they (or their spouse) have beat their head against the wall. And of course, there are those who repeat the same mistake over and over and over again and NEVER get it.

 

Myself, I fall into the category of making the same mistake multiple times until finally the light went off inside my head.

 

I get the feeling you're concerned that maybe you'll never change? If so, I think you're already well on your way to getting things fixed inside yourself.

[Hazyhead]

Thanks all for your responses. So interesting to read. I've only ever cheated once (not that I'm excusing it - the word 'only' is probably a bad choice) and I couldn't continue doing it to my partner so I ended that relationship and yet I still continued to be in the affair with a MM, therefore still being compicit in somebody else's betrayal. I never want to do that again and truly hope that I stick to that. Not only for the people that get hurt because of my actions but also for myself; the pain, the self-esteem and the lack of decency.

 

Wheelwright, what I find so curious about your past is that I think you somtimes feel you found 'true love' with your AP, is that right? Do you think you could get that with your husband with work? If not I worry that you shut the door for ever finding it as a constancy in your life.

[Hazyhead]

there is nothing constructive about serial cheaters(cheaters)....yet they expect constructive advise.....

 

you just made a fool out of your H and used him for last 19yrs(still)....

 

why can't you just end your M and set your H free...could be probably your first and final favor towards him

 

you wanted to be faithful for the rest of your life reminds of my friend who quits smoking every day before he goes to sleep..

 

Straight in at the deep end eh, Scorp? I can't speak for WW but I know it is hard to end what could still be a good relationship and only she knows if it still has hope. I like your analogy, but the same applies to your friend, there is still hope.

 

WW, can I ask, how is your husband in all this? I don't mean to be critical, but if you look at him and see forgiveness and love does it give you a stronger incentive to work on it?

[wheelwright]

WW, can I ask, how is your husband in all this? I don't mean to be critical, but if you look at him and see forgiveness and love does it give you a stronger incentive to work on it?

 

Thanks for your replies HH.

 

Yes, his love and forgiveness touch me very deeply. Yes, it gives me incentive to stay and work.

 

And yes, I worry I shut the door on finding real love if I stay in the M. But I am so bruised by the fall out post DDay and xAP'a treatment of me that I don't feel I can trust my assessment of true love anymore.

 

How is my H? Just as bruised, but getting over it and working on the M to make it better. He is amazing. I feel very guilty that I do not find it easy to reconnect.

 

He seems to know what he wants, I am still split. I am thinking of going to counselling to help heal this.

 

I went through a difficult childhood with D parents etc. I have a fear of being alone - not enough to make me stay when I know I shouldn't, but enough to make this such a big step that I find it hard to take.

 

I think that when my love for my H died (2 years prior to the A) I became split at that point -between my dream of the happy ever after M I had thought I would have, and my disturbing thoughts of being intensely unhappy in the M (emotionally and sexually). The way he behaved to me during and subsequent to this time really didn't help. Now he is all passion, respect, support and roses. And forgiveness.

 

And I like and respect him. But I don't love him like I should. Like I wish I did.

 

I don't leave for many reasons, tied up with fears and hopes.

 

I fear I am not sound enough in my own judgement, that I was a fool to fall in love with my xAP, to keep having feelings for him despite him throwing me under the bus - in a particularly nasty way. I fear that I am a fool to not see what a great thing my M is.

 

I also fear that I will stay split for ever and never resolve this problem. That I will go mad from it.

 

I hope I can forget the xAP, that the old feelings I had for my H will return, that we can be happy and keep the family whole.

[FryFish]

Apart from these infidelities, I have been faithful to the same man for 19 years.

Quoted for irony.

[wheelwright]

you said your H does not know about the A...where is this forgiveness part coming from....

 

There was DDay 8 months ago and there has been NC with AP since. He knows.

[wheelwright]

Quoted for irony.

 

Yeah, I get it. But I can tell you he also has infidelity skeletons in his cupboard. This was a R started young, with lots of ups and downs and wavering re commitment on both sides.

 

I should have rephrased that bit though - walked right into it.

[bestplayer]

Thanks for your replies HH.

 

Yes, his love and forgiveness touch me very deeply. Yes, it gives me incentive to stay and work.

 

And yes, I worry I shut the door on finding real love if I stay in the M. But I am so bruised by the fall out post DDay and xAP'a treatment of me that I don't feel I can trust my assessment of true love anymore.

 

How is my H? Just as bruised, but getting over it and working on the M to make it better. He is amazing. I feel very guilty that I do not find it easy to reconnect.

 

He seems to know what he wants, I am still split. I am thinking of going to counselling to help heal this.

 

I went through a difficult childhood with D parents etc. I have a fear of being alone - not enough to make me stay when I know I shouldn't, but enough to make this such a big step that I find it hard to take.

 

I think that when my love for my H died (2 years prior to the A) I became split at that point -between my dream of the happy ever after M I had thought I would have, and my disturbing thoughts of being intensely unhappy in the M (emotionally and sexually). The way he behaved to me during and subsequent to this time really didn't help. Now he is all passion, respect, support and roses. And forgiveness.

 

And I like and respect him. But I don't love him like I should. Like I wish I did.

 

I don't leave for many reasons, tied up with fears and hopes.

 

I fear I am not sound enough in my own judgement, that I was a fool to fall in love with my xAP, to keep having feelings for him despite him throwing me under the bus - in a particularly nasty way. I fear that I am a fool to not see what a great thing my M is.

 

I also fear that I will stay split for ever and never resolve this problem. That I will go mad from it.

 

I hope I can forget the xAP, that the old feelings I had for my H will return, that we can be happy and keep the family whole.

 

can i ask u why the love for husband died & u never wanted to get it back ?

[White Flower]

I regret my part in the affair - it's almost finished me too and that is something I have to deal with on my own, but I know he does too. And I think despite how she feels right now, there is still hope for their marriage. I know I'm likely to get a bashing here, being a guilty party, but surely I'm not alone with the opinion. Does anybody else feel that repeating the act does not necessarily indicate that that person will never change?

It really depends on the cheater and his reasons for cheating. I am sure some cheaters are absolutely remorseful and try their hardest to rebuild their Ms in the sincerest way.

 

And then there are serial cheaters, sex addicts, and otherwise selfish people who have other agendas. For them, 'once a cheater' can definitely be true. Among these, there is even help for them, but they have to want it.

[ladydesigner]

I cheated for the wrong reasons. Mine was a revenge affair, probably the single most biggest mistake I have EVER made in my life. I won't ever cheat again. It was the only time I have cheated in my life, unfortunately it came from a place of darkness that I am just now pulling myself out of.

 

If my husband does cheat again... well at that point I either need to leave knowing that he is a serial cheater or stay with him for better or for worse. Right now I am in the process of repairing our marriage and my husband is as well. I don't think either one of us were communicating effectively enough at the time my husband cheated. We are both to blame for the fallout of our marriage.

[wheelwright]

can i ask u why the love for husband died & u never wanted to get it back ?

 

I don't know why it died. I was horrified and buried my doubts under a house move and fear of losing my happy ending, all the while trying to 'feel right' again. I wanted to get it back, and I did talk to my H about certain things that were bothering me, but he didn't address them. I was terrified of telling him the love had died, as I thought that would ruin everything ( - ???!!!! not thinking straight at all). Every day, every kiss felt like a lie. I walked around, sometimes tears barely at bay, just thinking about it. I think this is one reason the A happened - I had been lying to my H for two years prior about my feelings anyway. Paradoxically, the A felt like I was finally living in the light.

 

Once I had feelings for another man, then I really knew the love had died, and was less split and leaning towards D.

 

I think your question is one of the keys though - I am not sure if the love died because of a realisation he wasn't good for me (this is the feeling I had) or because I had a messed up childhood and didn't know how to live a normal happy life - kind of unconscious self-sabotage). Thinking now, it's probably a combination.

 

Thanks for your question. It felt good to write this.

[ladydesigner]

I don't know why it died. I was horrified and buried my doubts under a house move and fear of losing my happy ending, all the while trying to 'feel right' again. I wanted to get it back, and I did talk to my H about certain things that were bothering me, but he didn't address them. I was terrified of telling him the love had died, as I thought that would ruin everything ( - ???!!!! not thinking straight at all). Every day, every kiss felt like a lie. I walked around, sometimes tears barely at bay, just thinking about it. I think this is one reason the A happened - I had been lying to my H for two years prior about my feelings anyway. Paradoxically, the A felt like I was finally living in the light.

 

Once I had feelings for another man, then I really knew the love had died, and was less split and leaning towards D.

 

I think your question is one of the keys though - I am not sure if the love died because of a realisation he wasn't good for me (this is the feeling I had) or because I had a messed up childhood and didn't know how to live a normal happy life - kind of unconscious self-sabotage). Thinking now, it's probably a combination.

 

Thanks for your question. It felt good to write this.

WW I could really identify with your post about the love dying and the A renewing that feeling in yourself again. I remember before my A that I felt dead inside I kept thinking something hormonal happened to me after the births of my children. I really felt like it was a chore to have sex with my husband and kissing him...forget it. I can understand why my H had his infidelity. I had my infidelity in revenge of his, but did not expect to fall in love...but I did. At this point I too realized my love for my H had died (well the "in love" feeling.)

 

Since the ending of my A I have began to reconnect with my H. I know I love him. The intimacy is getting better. I still do not enjoy kissing him I hope this will change in the future too. Our communication has improved ten fold.

 

I hope one day you can reconnect with your H on a level that is comfortable for you.

[Snowflower]

WW I could really identify with your post about the love dying and the A renewing that feeling in yourself again. I remember before my A that I felt dead inside I kept thinking something hormonal happened to me after the births of my children. I really felt like it was a chore to have sex with my husband and kissing him...forget it. I can understand why my H had his infidelity. I had my infidelity in revenge of his, but did not expect to fall in love...but I did. At this point I too realized my love for my H had died (well the "in love" feeling.)

 

Since the ending of my A I have began to reconnect with my H. I know I love him. The intimacy is getting better. I still do not enjoy kissing him I hope this will change in the future too. Our communication has improved ten fold.

 

I hope one day you can reconnect with your H on a level that is comfortable for you.

 

LD, I have followed a lot of your posts here and it seems like your marriage is improving...that's great!

 

I also really appreciate your honesty about why you had an affair and how you have felt about it afterward.

 

The part I bolded in your post above, what do you mean? What did you understand about your husband's infidelity?

[ladydesigner]

The part I bolded in your post above, what do you mean? What did you understand about your husband's infidelity?

 

I believe my husband had an affair due to me not wanting to have sex which created an emotional disconnect between us. While I do not approve of either of our actions I have come to an understanding as to why he strayed. Maybe I am wrong in thinking this way, but I think if we could have communicated more effectively during that time he would not have had his affair. I kept running from the problem every time he addressed it, I kept thinking there was something wrong with me, why didn't I want to have sex anymore, but I did nothing to help fix the problem.