whichwayisup Posted February 19, 2010 Posted February 19, 2010 But do you see, even though you were looking out for his best interests, what you did to him by giving him that book, is pretty similar to what your so called friend did to you by crossing lines. Ofcourse he didn't take it that way. He was hurt and insulted.. All you can do is sincerely apologize to him, (don't justify what you did or explain yourself, he knows you and knows about your issues) and ask him to forgive you, tell him that you DO care about him and because he is a close friend, from now on you won't do anything like that again. Understand why he is upset, sympathize with him, admit it was a mistake. I'm sure once he sees how upset you are about possibly losing him as a friend, he'll come around again. Sorry that this happened to you Woggle.. I know your heart was in the right place, you didn't mean it cruely or maliciously, you meant it to help him, even though it didn't come off that way.. This is true. When I am in one of my moods I see everything in terms of men vs women. I can't even think clearly when I am like that. So, will you consider CBT to help you change?
carhill Posted February 19, 2010 Posted February 19, 2010 Wogs, I'm sorry to hear your friend disinvited you. That's lousy. I read an overview of that book, along with the reviews, and personally wouldn't find it offensive at all. It's about acceptance, IMO. With therapy, it is that acceptance which has helped me process bitterness in a healthier way. Acceptance that we're all different and that someone's actions or words can affect me if I let them and I can accept that reality and accept that their perspective and path is uniquely theirs; I'm not required to embrace it or validate it and it doesn't define who I am. What do you want to define who you are? Think about that. I hope your friend reads the book again and reconsiders how he reacted to his friend's offer.
sumdude Posted February 19, 2010 Posted February 19, 2010 Wogs, I'm sorry to hear your friend disinvited you. That's lousy. I read an overview of that book, along with the reviews, and personally wouldn't find it offensive at all. It's about acceptance, IMO. With therapy, it is that acceptance which has helped me process bitterness in a healthier way. Acceptance that we're all different and that someone's actions or words can affect me if I let them and I can accept that reality and accept that their perspective and path is uniquely theirs; I'm not required to embrace it or validate it and it doesn't define who I am. What do you want to define who you are? Think about that. I hope your friend reads the book again and reconsiders how he reacted to his friend's offer. In most circumstances the book isn't offensive. However to give it to a friend about to get married? Infidelity isn't a topic a man about to walk down the aisle wants to read about and imagine the bride to be's reaction if she saw it in the house. Time and place were inappropriate, at the least very poor taste timing wise. Every marriage has a 50/50 chance of making it right?
carhill Posted February 19, 2010 Posted February 19, 2010 When commenting, I was imagining my best friend giving me such a book as a reality check. Prior to being married, I likely would have pooh-poohed such 'nonsense', but not reacted with a disinvite, since I trust my male friends have my best interests at heart; after, I see things much more clearly and would embrace the information as one valuable perspective. Wogs comes across as a no-nonsense guy and is likely a straight-shooter with his friends, and vice-versa, so I would presume they're used to his candor. Wogs, if you were to compare this incident to that friend of yours (the divorced guy) who was ragging on your wife, what differences would you note? How would you characterize your approach? Would you say there are any similarities in tone, or not?
Author Woggle Posted February 19, 2010 Author Posted February 19, 2010 Truth be told there is not much difference and I was trying to convince him to not go through with the wedding. It's not just that though. I am just sick and tired of looking at everything involving relationships in such a negative light.
whichwayisup Posted February 19, 2010 Posted February 19, 2010 I really hope you two patch things up.
carhill Posted February 19, 2010 Posted February 19, 2010 This is where I'll align with WWIU and submit that therapy will help you delineate the 'why'. Why you apparently acted in a manner which you found to be unwelcome and unpleasant and uncalled for in one of your friends (doing it to you). It can help you disconnect from that pattern of thinking and follow a different, more autonomous, path. Take a good long look at that snapshot posted in your profile. That's your path.....
paddington bear Posted February 19, 2010 Posted February 19, 2010 Truth be told there is not much difference and I was trying to convince him to not go through with the wedding. It's not just that though. I am just sick and tired of looking at everything involving relationships in such a negative light. Thing is you can try to help others, but unless they want to see it, they will end up simply hating you for interfering. Even if you are proved right in a few years time. A relative of mine did this to his brother told him to 'ditch the bitch' and not to marry her. Didn't work. This woman is a total pain in the ass and I for one wish he had got rid of her. Point is, people outside can see a bit clearer sometimes than people within the relationship. But....you don't cross that line, you know the one between trying to subtly help and out and out saying 'don't marry her', otherwise you do lose friends. In any case, the bitterness seems to be such an issue for you, it could be that your friends see it as part of you now 'oh there goes Woggle again, going on about how not to trust women and what they're like', so don't take you seriously, because it's your issue not theirs.
threebyfate Posted February 19, 2010 Posted February 19, 2010 Try to remember something very important about LS. It's an open forum with total anonymity. Which a lot of people take as carte blanche to say anything. Even put on false persona's and start over the top threads and posts specifically to generate heated responses just for fun and ego. You also tend to get people who have been the most hurt.LS isn't a microcosm of real life. It's full of both obsessives, who destroy their relationships, most often through Cluster B disorders, and also, people at their worst, being their worst, due to pain from all kinds of relationship trauma. Thing about it all is.. a lot of people just suck and it's pretty even between the genders. You just have to be able to accept it. Whatever happened in their lives or growing up that made them that way. At some point as adults everyone has a choice to rise above and make sense of what created them and possibly change. Sounds like you might be at that point in your life. Not that you suck lol but that maybe you want to rise above whatever created your darker side.Yup. Just remember that anyone who enables your dark side, is someone to avoid and ignore, if at all possible.
Author Woggle Posted February 19, 2010 Author Posted February 19, 2010 Thing is you can try to help others, but unless they want to see it, they will end up simply hating you for interfering. Even if you are proved right in a few years time. A relative of mine did this to his brother told him to 'ditch the bitch' and not to marry her. Didn't work. This woman is a total pain in the ass and I for one wish he had got rid of her. Point is, people outside can see a bit clearer sometimes than people within the relationship. But....you don't cross that line, you know the one between trying to subtly help and out and out saying 'don't marry her', otherwise you do lose friends. In any case, the bitterness seems to be such an issue for you, it could be that your friends see it as part of you now 'oh there goes Woggle again, going on about how not to trust women and what they're like', so don't take you seriously, because it's your issue not theirs. The sad thing is that this woman actually seems pretty nice but I encourage my friends to be players. I was banned for almost two weeks from here and without a place to vent my hatred I had to truly look at myself and I need to get past my issues. I read a few posts on here that seemed like the female version of me and if I hate hearing my gender generalized as if we are all bad maybe I should extend the same courtesy.
and.then.some Posted February 19, 2010 Posted February 19, 2010 (edited) To me... this is the easiest and most true answer out there... People of both genders are A-holes. You can't "hate" the men without hating the women too. So why not remove the gender aspect? Personally, I see the world as full of a bunch of large children, most of whom don't know any better. It's not necessarily a bad thing, but life is journey, and also a growing process ideally. I truly believe that everyone does the best they are capable of doing. When they're not doing better it's because they are not emotionally capable at that time. People say ignorant things which they know aren't always true because it is the way they deal with their own frustrations and short comings. Likewise, we hold negative views of others for the same/similar reason. Oddly enough, both situations are one in the same. One way or another, we all manage (though to different degrees) to find some way to protect our egos from a cold and cruel world. See it for what it is, and try not to take it to heart. As well, try to remember that, even though there many screwy people in the world, there are some good ones out there too. Edited February 19, 2010 by and.then.some
txsilkysmoothe Posted February 19, 2010 Posted February 19, 2010 Woggle, Acknowledging the bitterness and recognizing that it’s destructive is a huge step toward overcoming it. For me, I question whether it is bitterness or hurt? I’m not sure of the difference. Many years ago, I was in an abusive marriage. One morning my husband was overcome with self-loathing upon seeing the bruises he had inflicted upon me the night before. He told me that I could hit him. I didn’t want to hit him. He grabbed and held my arm and hit my hand against his head. Something snapped and I decided I had a right to hit him. So I doubled up my fist and I hit him in the face as hard as I could. It hurt him – I could see the pain and confusion in his eyes. I immediately regretted my action and was overcome with shame for thinking I was justified to hurt him because he had hurt me. EMPATHY I believe the ability to feel empathy is what has allowed me to heal and overcome my hurt. I know that we are all born with a purity to be good to one another, to love and be loved. No child dreams of growing up and “using the opposite sex” or “cheating on their partner.” Perhaps parents fail to teach their children empathy. Society certainly lacks examples of it. In terms of my husband, empathy allowed me to see that he didn’t want to be an abuser and he didn’t want to be an alcoholic. I was able to acknowledge his attempts to control his rage, stop drinking, and factor in his upbringing which greatly contributed to his problems. Empathy is not making an excuse for a person’s unacceptable behavior. It is merely the realization that, “There, but for the grace of God, goes I.” Additionally, I don’t allow myself to have pity parties. Yes, the past can unexpectedly rear its ugly head and screw with my present. Yes, my relationships don’t seem to succeed and I don’t know why. Yes, true love eludes me. Yes, I get discouraged. Yes, it hurts. But I am so blessed in so many ways and my problems (past and present) pale in comparison to the daily struggles of millions around the world. The mother who watches her starving child die today, has a right to be bitter. The woman who gets dumped today by a man who obviously wasn’t right for her, does not. Perspective!
espec10001 Posted February 19, 2010 Posted February 19, 2010 Hey man don't turn into what I am. I'm cold and my emotions are slowly dying and my heart is turning black. To me, romantic love is a curse that is nothing but bloody warfare. I come on this site to see how others manage dating and relationships, but I don't do either anymore. To me romantic relationships leave you too vulnerable. Seeing couples together literally is making me sick to my stomach now. I don't hate them for it, neither the man or the woman is to blame for bad things, but I think love itself is a bad thing. Think about it. Why do they call it "falling" in love? Doesn't it sound like you are being duped? At least that's how I see it now. It isn't the woman's fault I'm this way, I don't blame them for anything.
Author Woggle Posted February 19, 2010 Author Posted February 19, 2010 I do agree about the empathy thing. When I think about it it is easy to see why my mother turned out the way she did. My grandfather was a monster who used to threaten his family with guns and sexually abuse his own kids and eventually she snapped and became the same kind of monster herself. I fear I am just repeating the cycle which is why I feel I should never become a father. My ex is another person who obviously has a lot of pain inside and has decided to numb herself with drugs. It doesn't excuse either example but it does show what happens to people who let their issues consume them. I just don't know how to give up this rage without turning into my father who was a complete doormat. He sat there and just took my mother's abuse which is something I refuse to do.
threebyfate Posted February 19, 2010 Posted February 19, 2010 Trust is one of those funny things, not amusing but strange. It's possible to trust to a reasonable way, rather than have a childlike all-encompassing trust. As well, believe in your own strength. You've survived both mother and ex-wife. While you believe that misogyny is your strength, if that's the case, how did you manage to survive your mother and learn to love your ex?
Author Woggle Posted February 19, 2010 Author Posted February 19, 2010 Trust is one of those funny things, not amusing but strange. It's possible to trust to a reasonable way, rather than have a childlike all-encompassing trust. As well, believe in your own strength. You've survived both mother and ex-wife. While you believe that misogyny is your strength, if that's the case, how did you manage to survive your mother and learn to love your ex? I don't think it is my strength but it was sort of a crutch to lean on while I gained back my self respect. The problem now is that it had become an albatross instead of a crutch. My friend asked me how I was any different than the women who encouraged my ex to cheat on me and I had no good answer. He was there for all of it so he knows what he is talking about plus his ex walked out on him leaving him with a daughter to raise on his own yet he is no way a misogynist.
threebyfate Posted February 19, 2010 Posted February 19, 2010 I don't think it is my strength but it was sort of a crutch to lean on while I gained back my self respect. The problem now is that it had become an albatross instead of a crutch. My friend asked me how I was any different than the women who encouraged my ex to cheat on me and I had no good answer. He was there for all of it so he knows what he is talking about plus his ex walked out on him leaving him with a daughter to raise on his own yet he is no way a misogynist.Self-respect doesn't have to be leveraged off someone(s) else. Think of how much you've come through and that now, you've got a wonderful marriage (good people picker for your wife), have paid off your home before age 30, and have friends, as well as a married into family, who love you back. So, what's not to be happy about? Why erode on that happiness with the negativity of misogyny? Life really is too short, Woggle. Enjoy every minute as it's happening, with a view to the long-term, with things you can control, rather than worrying about things you can't control. If shyte happens down the line, you'll handle it. Just know this and have confidence in your abilities. You also have to aware that no matter what you do, you're going to make some judgement errors. That's okay. You're human.
You'reasian Posted February 19, 2010 Posted February 19, 2010 (edited) How do you do it? I know the way I think is not healthy but I keep going back to it because it is the only way I know how to protect myself. Here are some questions. How do see your friends getting used and abused over and over by the opposite sex without it affecting your view? How do you constantly hear members of the opposite sex bragging about mistreating people and not let it affect you? How do you constantly see misery in the relationships around you mostly caused by the opposite sex and not let it affect how you view your relationship? How do resist the urge to throw some dirt right back in the other direction when you see and hear people kicking dirt on your gender and trashing them? How do you avoid getting angry when you are told that everything you gone through at the hands of a member of the opposite sex is deserved because it is time for payback and evening the score? This is not a thread justifying how I feel because I know how unhealthy and wrong it is but it is so hard not to. It is really hard to look at the opposite sex in a positive light when I see these things everyday. For those who manage not to let bitterness consume them how do you do it? This question is for both genders as well. People chose who they will allow to use or abuse them. If they are in a serious relationship, they will not do things that would play with the fidelity of that relationship. Its that simple. Edited February 19, 2010 by You'reasian
Author Woggle Posted February 20, 2010 Author Posted February 20, 2010 Self-respect doesn't have to be leveraged off someone(s) else. Think of how much you've come through and that now, you've got a wonderful marriage (good people picker for your wife), have paid off your home before age 30, and have friends, as well as a married into family, who love you back. So, what's not to be happy about? Why erode on that happiness with the negativity of misogyny? Life really is too short, Woggle. Enjoy every minute as it's happening, with a view to the long-term, with things you can control, rather than worrying about things you can't control. If shyte happens down the line, you'll handle it. Just know this and have confidence in your abilities. You also have to aware that no matter what you do, you're going to make some judgement errors. That's okay. You're human. This is true but every man I know who has had it come crashing down thought they were on top of the world before hand. It almost seems too good. I sometimes feel there has to be some bad fortune just waiting around the corner.
threebyfate Posted February 20, 2010 Posted February 20, 2010 This is true but every man I know who has had it come crashing down thought they were on top of the world before hand. It almost seems too good. I sometimes feel there has to be some bad fortune just waiting around the corner.This happens to both men and women, case in point, myself, when the ex-H cheated on me. What I and everyone else thought was an ideal marriage, turned out not quite so ideal, although if you ask the ex, he was pretty happy with the arrangements, status quo! And yet, if not for him and everything that's happened since, I wouldn't be with my wonderful husband. I CANNOT regret any of it or hold onto the unhappiness, since my life has turned around again. If I should happen to be wrong again, I've been wrong before and each time, my life has greatly improved, through learning more about what makes me tick. Seriously, bitterness does nothing but rot your soul. It's nothing but a useless burden. Get rid of it and you'll feel much better.
Author Woggle Posted February 20, 2010 Author Posted February 20, 2010 This happens to both men and women, case in point, myself, when the ex-H cheated on me. What I and everyone else thought was an ideal marriage, turned out not quite so ideal, although if you ask the ex, he was pretty happy with the arrangements, status quo! And yet, if not for him and everything that's happened since, I wouldn't be with my wonderful husband. I CANNOT regret any of it or hold onto the unhappiness, since my life has turned around again. If I should happen to be wrong again, I've been wrong before and each time, my life has greatly improved, through learning more about what makes me tick. Seriously, bitterness does nothing but rot your soul. It's nothing but a useless burden. Get rid of it and you'll feel much better. I envy you for being able to look at life in such a positive way.
threebyfate Posted February 20, 2010 Posted February 20, 2010 I envy you for being able to look at life in such a positive way.Woggle, don't get me wrong. I'm incredibly cynical about people in general. But... When I find solid, decent people, people who honestly care about others and want to help or be there for you, people who know what a healthy relationship is, be it friendship or romantic relationship, it just makes the world a brighter place for me. And if I'm wrong, I will survive and find someone even better.
New_Life08 Posted February 20, 2010 Posted February 20, 2010 Hi. Not saying you need therapy, not saying you don't. But the person talking about cognitive therapy has a point. Realizing that you do not have to base your life or relationship on the outside world....that you and your wife are what you choose to be together is all that matters. SERIOUSLY....that is all that matters. If others are dissing your gender bc they have been hurt...then oh well..it is temporary. They are hurt and disgruntled. You have to learn to live life by your own evidence....not someone else's. Do you know what I mean? I wish my bf would talk to you about this...he would be the one to answer this as a man who KNOWS! He does...he has been royally screwed by women. He is here next to me...maybe I can get him to comment on this. Hugs friend...
Author Woggle Posted February 20, 2010 Author Posted February 20, 2010 Woggle, don't get me wrong. I'm incredibly cynical about people in general. But... When I find solid, decent people, people who honestly care about others and want to help or be there for you, people who know what a healthy relationship is, be it friendship or romantic relationship, it just makes the world a brighter place for me. And if I'm wrong, I will survive and find someone even better. It brightens me up as well but I know how well people can deceive and I know this is treading into misogynist ground but I know how well a woman can lie to a man. I know so many women who's husbands have no clue how much they really resent and despise and I am afraid of ending up in that position. Your marriage and a few others on here do show me that small but bright window where it is possible to have a happy marriage but most of what I see is something I want no part of whatsoever.
whichwayisup Posted February 20, 2010 Posted February 20, 2010 You keep saying it is possible to have a happy marriage.. So, where does your wife fit into all this now? Are you saying that you're not happy in your marriage? Or are you talking generally speaking believing in marriage period. Sorry I'm abit confused. CBTCBTCBTCBT! You haven't acknowledged this yet..Are you considering it?
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