MM flip-floppers

[Brokenlady]

WF,

Thank you. I am really hurting today. I am starting to truly believe I may never find the love I want. I may love many people, but I am not sure anyone will ever love me back, fully. I guess that is my lot in life. But being alone and unloved must be easier than being with someone and feeling unloved, and scared all the time because of the love/dependency/guilt/whatever he has for another woman, strong enough to throw me away at times.

[Fallen Angel]

I disagree. The betrayal involved when one MP betrays another, after there is an understanding that at least on one side the love has died in the M, is quite different from a betrayal where an intimate and acknowledged love was part of the equation.

 

One is the betrayal of commitment, of losing what you 'own', the other a love betrayal quite plain and simple. For me the latter would be harder to overcome.

 

It takes one kind of person to betray the life they have built, but another to betray their own heart. I know who I would see as more lost.

 

There is not a BS/OW theme here - it cuts both ways. Some MM/MW betray their hearts in an A. Some by staying in their M.

 

We can act badly on all these different levels - it's hard to deal with.

 

Well said. Worthy of reading again...

[anne1707]

I disagree. The betrayal involved when one MP betrays another, after there is an understanding that at least on one side the love has died in the M, is quite different from a betrayal where an intimate and acknowledged love was part of the equation.

 

One is the betrayal of commitment, of losing what you 'own', the other a love betrayal quite plain and simple. For me the latter would be harder to overcome.

 

It takes one kind of person to betray the life they have built, but another to betray their own heart. I know who I would see as more lost.

 

There is not a BS/OW theme here - it cuts both ways.

 

The love the WS has for the BS may have died however the BS may still love and feel there is genuine intimacy (due to the WS covering their tracks). In that case the betrayal is as bad as it gets. To suggest that if the WS's love for the BS has died means the betrayal as far as the BS is concerned is not as great as it may be for the OW is very unfair. To the BS, it is a betrayal of the life they have built AND of their own heart.

[Fallen Angel]

The love the WS has for the BS may have died however the BS may still love and feel there is genuine intimacy (due to the WS covering their tracks). In that case the betrayal is as bad as it gets. To suggest that if the WS's love for the BS has died means the betrayal as far as the BS is concerned is not as great as it may be for the OW is very unfair. To the BS, it is a betrayal of the life they have built AND of their own heart.

 

But WW clearly stated that this is not the kind of relationship being discussed. It was clearly stated that the relationship being described here is one in which there "is an understanding that at least on one side the love has died in the M". I understand that to mean that both spouses have acknowledged that the love has died, for at least one of the spouses. Even if the love is still strong coming FROM the BS, at least they knew already that their spouse no longer felt the same way. That is very different from what you are describing.

[anne1707]

I have not read the whole thread so apologies if any misunderstanding.

 

However I read "understanding on one side" as being the WS's understanding. If the BS does not share that understanding then the betrayal is as bad as it gets for them.

 

Even if the BS knows the WS no longer loves them, is that really supposed to make things any easier for them? I think not.

[Fallen Angel]

I have not read the whole thread so apologies if any misunderstanding.

 

However I read "understanding on one side" as being the WS's understanding. If the BS does not share that understanding then the betrayal is as bad as it gets for them.

 

Even if the BS knows the WS no longer loves them, is that really supposed to make things any easier for them? I think not.

 

I do not think it would make it easier. However, if they have been told that the love is not there anymore from their spouse, and they continue to stay in a marriage after they have been told the love is dead.. .. I guess it wouldn't hurt less, but it should not come as wholely unexpected, right?

 

I gather from WWs mention of "on one side" that it is the loss of love that she is talking about being "on one side" meaning one spouse is no longer in love, but the other still is.. but the understanding is out in the opening between the spouses of the reality of the situation.

[anne1707]

It just seems to me that someone has their head well and truly in the clouds if they think the BS is betrayed less than the OW. Just because the WS does not love, doesn't mean the BS does not either. Just because it may be expected, does not also make it less of a betrayal to the BS.

[fooled once]

I can only speak for myself, but I was prepared to deal with the fact that he still had to have a relationship with his xW. That was totally fine. Being divorced with kids myself, I get it. The problem was he and I had different ideas in mind of what that relationship between him and her should look like. I believed it should have firm boundaries - be a warm coparenting relationship, and xDM wanted to still act like pseudo-H to her.

 

 

 

It happens this way, but it doesn't have to. (Boundaries for Goodness sakes!) When I Divorced, my xH didn't hang around my house, nor did I hang around his place (also a former residence of ours). Whether or not xW wanted me around the kids or not was irrelevant. I don't get to pick my xH's gf's or who he brings around them, it's something xDM's xW will have to accept as well. It was a decision about what his kids were and were not emotionally ready for - his xW's feelings were not part of that equation.

 

 

 

On what basis do you have this idea? For the OW here involved with MM who have kids, I haven't seen much to support the idea that they think the relationship between the parents can or should be severed.

 

BL, I belong to 2 step-parenting boards and I can tell you without a doubt, MANY new wives/girflfriends DO believe the parents should NEVER interact again -- especially since there is a NEW girl in the relationship.

 

I have seen so many stepmothers (SM) believe that their H, the father, should never speak to his former wife. They believe any communication should be between the NEW wife and the former wife. Seriously. These women are DELUSIONAL. They don't want the former wife calling for any reason, yet they get pissed if the former wife doesn't ask the father of the kids views on things regarding the kids.

 

As a divorced mom, I DO feel the parents should communicate -- me and him. NOT me and her, not him and my H. Him and I. Thankfully, my H and I were both "married with kids" before we met so we got it. So many new wives who had never been married and/or never had kids in a former relationship just DO NOT GET IT.

 

Yes, boundaries need to be in place. My ex would never think he could come to my home with my H and "hang out" yet my H's ex felt she could

No worries, we fixed that not long after we were married. IF handled correctly, the parents CAN co-exist and co-parent well, but like I said, I belong to 2 step-parenting boards and I can easily say that 90% of these new wives cannot, CANNOT deal and want the parents to never speak again, want the children to go away and want to pretend like the H was a virgin who never dated prior to them meeting. There is so much whining about "not getting first" and competition between the new wife and the former wife. It is really sad and pathetic, to be honest, to read so many of the stories.

 

Sorry for the T/J, but I just wanted to comment on this part of your post!

[fooled once]

Wow, that's completely an unfair generalization. It sounds like you have specific people in mind. The W wants him to not only stop cheating and recommit, she wants access to all his stuff so she can verify all this, she wants him to spend the rest of his life making it up to her, and to constantly reassure her so she never has to worry about it happening again. She wants him to go to MC, to be even better as an H than before.

 

The OW? She just wants to be part of his life. She wants the kind of relationship any woman wants - an exclusive one, and one where they can share their lives with each other. It sounds as if you think this is an ureasonable request!

 

 

NID said:

 

Quote:

The W just wants them to stop cheating on her and recommit to the marriage. The OW? Well, she wants him to divorce, show his commitment to her by doing what she tells him to in regards to how she views his life prior to her, see his kids on a schedule acceptable to her, include her in things that she might not ever be included in because of the situation (he may be close to his former in-laws still), tell him how to parent his kids or tell his exW how she will be involved in the kids' lives whether she likes it or not (I've had a friend go through this, it was ridiculous!), posit herself into the divorce and tell him how she feels about his divorce settlement, you name it.

BL said

Wow, that's completely an unfair generalization. It sounds like you have specific people in mind. The W wants him to not only stop cheating and recommit, she wants access to all his stuff so she can verify all this, she wants him to spend the rest of his life making it up to her, and to constantly reassure her so she never has to worry about it happening again. She wants him to go to MC, to be even better as an H than before.

 

I have read again on the 2 step sites I belong to EXACTLY what NID wrote -- the new wife wants to have TOTAL and COMPLETE control over how often the dad sees his kids (preferably not even e/o/w visitation), to never speak to her, to NOT have to pay child support and quite honestly, for the first family to move far away or just GO away. I am dead serious -- I have seen it soo many times. It is really sad. What is even sadder is there are men who DO allow his new wife to control how often he sees his kids, the exact words he is to say to his ex wife and how he is to treat and behave around his kids. These are weak, pathetic, emasculated men. their children will probably grow up to hate him; and it is a given they will hate their stepmom. I have read some of the gruelest things a stepmom has done to her stepkids.

[Fallen Angel]

BL, I belong to 2 step-parenting boards and I can tell you without a doubt, MANY new wives/girflfriends DO believe the parents should NEVER interact again -- especially since there is a NEW girl in the relationship.

 

I have seen so many stepmothers (SM) believe that their H, the father, should never speak to his former wife. They believe any communication should be between the NEW wife and the former wife. Seriously. These women are DELUSIONAL. They don't want the former wife calling for any reason, yet they get pissed if the former wife doesn't ask the father of the kids views on things regarding the kids.

 

As a divorced mom, I DO feel the parents should communicate -- me and him. NOT me and her, not him and my H. Him and I. Thankfully, my H and I were both "married with kids" before we met so we got it. So many new wives who had never been married and/or never had kids in a former relationship just DO NOT GET IT.

 

Yes, boundaries need to be in place. My ex would never think he could come to my home with my H and "hang out" yet my H's ex felt she could

No worries, we fixed that not long after we were married. IF handled correctly, the parents CAN co-exist and co-parent well, but like I said, I belong to 2 step-parenting boards and I can easily say that 90% of these new wives cannot, CANNOT deal and want the parents to never speak again, want the children to go away and want to pretend like the H was a virgin who never dated prior to them meeting. There is so much whining about "not getting first" and competition between the new wife and the former wife. It is really sad and pathetic, to be honest, to read so many of the stories.

 

Sorry for the T/J, but I just wanted to comment on this part of your post!

 

I too have seen women/men who think their new partner/spouse should have no contact with the other parent after the new relationship starts.

 

I agree they are delusional. When I was married at the age of 21 I became a step-mother, and I even at that young age knew better. However, left to his own devices, my now xH let contact between himself and his daughters fall to the way-side. I made contact with his xW and suggested that it was unfair of us to allow his apathy to come between her daughters and my son (and future children) knowing each other as the siblings they were.

 

I invited her for coffee, come to find out we had much in common, and we in time became good friends. My children call her "aunt", and her mother became very much an "adoptive" mother towards me. Our families became intertwined, and we spent many holidays as one family unit. (to include her extended family and new husband, and myself and my children, even if my now xH chose not to be involved.) Through her and my combined effort, all the children had a relationship of sorts with their father. he wasn't much of a dad, but it is not for our lack of maturity about the matter.

 

To get back to the thread.. Broken, the love you seek is out there. You will find it, most likely when you least expect it. ((hugs to you hun))

[Fallen Angel]

Wow, that's completely an unfair generalization. It sounds like you have specific people in mind. The W wants him to not only stop cheating and recommit, she wants access to all his stuff so she can verify all this, she wants him to spend the rest of his life making it up to her, and to constantly reassure her so she never has to worry about it happening again. She wants him to go to MC, to be even better as an H than before.

 

The OW? She just wants to be part of his life. She wants the kind of relationship any woman wants - an exclusive one, and one where they can share their lives with each other. It sounds as if you think this is an ureasonable request!

 

 

NID said:

 

Quote:

The W just wants them to stop cheating on her and recommit to the marriage. The OW? Well, she wants him to divorce, show his commitment to her by doing what she tells him to in regards to how she views his life prior to her, see his kids on a schedule acceptable to her, include her in things that she might not ever be included in because of the situation (he may be close to his former in-laws still), tell him how to parent his kids or tell his exW how she will be involved in the kids' lives whether she likes it or not (I've had a friend go through this, it was ridiculous!), posit herself into the divorce and tell him how she feels about his divorce settlement, you name it.

BL said

 

I have read again on the 2 step sites I belong to EXACTLY what NID wrote -- the new wife wants to have TOTAL and COMPLETE control over how often the dad sees his kids (preferably not even e/o/w visitation), to never speak to her, to NOT have to pay child support and quite honestly, for the first family to move far away or just GO away. I am dead serious -- I have seen it soo many times. It is really sad. What is even sadder is there are men who DO allow his new wife to control how often he sees his kids, the exact words he is to say to his ex wife and how he is to treat and behave around his kids. These are weak, pathetic, emasculated men. their children will probably grow up to hate him; and it is a given they will hate their stepmom. I have read some of the gruelest things a stepmom has done to her stepkids.

 

But this is not limited to affairs situations, but just something that happens with relationships after divorce with kids. I am willing to bet that the demographics of cases in which this kind of manipulation occurs is not any higher in a relationship as a result of an affair than they are in the general population.

[fooled once]

Wow, that's completely an unfair generalization. It sounds like you have specific people in mind. The W wants him to not only stop cheating and recommit, she wants access to all his stuff so she can verify all this, she wants him to spend the rest of his life making it up to her, and to constantly reassure her so she never has to worry about it happening again. She wants him to go to MC, to be even better as an H than before.

 

The OW? She just wants to be part of his life. She wants the kind of relationship any woman wants - an exclusive one, and one where they can share their lives with each other. It sounds as if you think this is an ureasonable request!

 

 

NID said:

 

 

 

But this is not limited to affairs situations, but just something that happens with relationships after divorce with kids. I am willing to bet that the demographics of cases in which this kind of manipulation occurs is not any higher in a relationship as a result of an affair than they are in the general population.

 

FA, I didn't mean to imply (if I did) that this type of scenario is only in affair situations. It isn't, from what I have seen/read. In the affair situations, it has its own issues as in many more cases of "no overnight of the opposite sex" clauses as in the former wife is trying to limit what she now knows was occurring during her marriage. That is definitely a case of trying to close the barn door after the horses are out.

[Tashcw]

Hi guys,

 

Reading this post has really helped. Have recently posted this in 'break ups' but is probably more relevant here:

 

Am feeling absolutely and utterly desperate today. I think I know what your answers will be, but think I need to hear them anyway as I am at the lowest point I have ever been.

 

I started an affair with my DP about 20 months ago (again, I realise some of you will say this is karma, but I had never, ever felt this way about someone before. Ever. Thinking of him made me feel dizzy and although I broke it off twice during this time, I just couldn't cope without him). He had also had 2 other (short term) affairs before me so I managed to convince myself that their marriage failing was not my fault - whether it was or not I now don't know.

 

His wife found out last July and when she confronted him, he admitted it and left her, moving into rented accommodation immediately and saying we could finally be together. Since then we had a couple of 'wobbles' (never going back to her, but just hard points where he was quite down), as he desperately missed having his boys around permanently, but around October time it all settled down and he seemed continually happy (and more importantly, so did his 2 boys, who I have not yet met). We talked about moving forward, marriage, meeting his children, becoming a stepmom, he spent Christmas at mine, we spent time with each others friends and families, were due to go on holiday in 2 weeks etc etc.

 

Then last weekend his ex and 2 boys went skiing for the first time without him. He was very quiet for a couple of days, and then Tuesday morning told me that he didn't know what he wanted anymore, broke down and said he just didn't know what to do. He said he needed Tuesday night to think, then texted me Wednesday morning to say he wanted a separation and needed to be alone to give his family a chance.

 

He'd said on Tuesday morning he felt he needed someone to talk to, so I sent him therapist details, told him that I honestly believe his boys would be happier seeing their dad with someone who he loves and who loves him (his ex was very, very cold to him - I know this from hearing them both talk about their break up and the effect her actions had on the children etc).

 

I haven't heard anything since then and am an absolute mess. I have had bad relationships before and finally felt this was going to be a happy future and honestly thought he did too.

 

So, I know the general advice will be to break away, grow strong etc etc but I think I just need to hear it from you all as you have all helped me before.

 

I'd also love to know stories, good and bad, of DPs that have wavered and how people coped.

 

Thank you all,

 

T

xx

[NoIDidn't]

BTW, NID I responded to the first part of that post at the bottom of page 3 of this thread.

 

 

 

I'm not implying I'm not responsible for making a bad choice. I took a risk. He betrayed his W and I took a chance that he wouldn't betray me in our committed relationship. (We were supposed to get married afterall). In a way, it put me in the role of a BW who chooses to take their WS back. You KNOW you're taking a risk. Sometimes, often even, you get burned when you take a risk. I got burned. Had I the chance to do it over, I wouldn't do it again. I'd walk away and leave him to his quiet misery in his M. But I don't have that option.

 

I unfortunately got my self-worth all wrapped up in how he behaved. And he wasn't doing much to help me feel secure, which made it worse. Even he said recently: "I guess the guilt kicked in after I moved out and then I spent so much energy trying to alleviate it that you were getting trampled. I do apologize and hope you will both understand and forgive me"

 

When I really sit back and realize it was all this pain for nothing, I get really really sad. I sacrificed my better judgement, my morals, my character, my reputation for a horrificly bad decision. All that is left now is me, and I can't run from what I did like I could when i was with him. At least when with him I could say I did all that for love, and maybe I wasn't so awful. It bothers me, makes me feel broken, like I may never be right again. All that in addition to the fact that now I trust NO ONE. But in the end, I have no one else to blame for not enforcing my own boundaries than me.

 

I know you posted this yesterday, but I wanted to send you a cyber hug. I echo WF in what she posted.

 

Having yourself left is actually a lot more than you think it is!

 

(((((BrokenLady)))))

[NoIDidn't]

I disagree. The betrayal involved when one MP betrays another, after there is an understanding that at least on one side the love has died in the M, is quite different from a betrayal where an intimate and acknowledged love was part of the equation.

 

One is the betrayal of commitment, of losing what you 'own', the other a love betrayal quite plain and simple. For me the latter would be harder to overcome.

 

It takes one kind of person to betray the life they have built, but another to betray their own heart. I know who I would see as more lost.

 

There is not a BS/OW theme here - it cuts both ways. Some MM/MW betray their hearts in an A. Some by staying in their M.

 

We can act badly on all these different levels - it's hard to deal with.

 

Wheelwright, we will have to agree to disagree. Even with all you said, it makes no difference, betrayal is betrayal. An OW is not anymore betrayed than the woman the MM is married to. I can agree that they are both betrayed, but saying that one loves more than the other changes nothing.

[NoIDidn't]

 

I have read again on the 2 step sites I belong to EXACTLY what NID wrote -- the new wife wants to have TOTAL and COMPLETE control over how often the dad sees his kids (preferably not even e/o/w visitation), to never speak to her, to NOT have to pay child support and quite honestly, for the first family to move far away or just GO away. I am dead serious -- I have seen it soo many times. It is really sad. What is even sadder is there are men who DO allow his new wife to control how often he sees his kids, the exact words he is to say to his ex wife and how he is to treat and behave around his kids. These are weak, pathetic, emasculated men. their children will probably grow up to hate him; and it is a given they will hate their stepmom. I have read some of the gruelest things a stepmom has done to her stepkids.

 

Continuing the TJ. I know. I know many stepmoms. I've HAD many stepmoms. I've been there, done that. Too many times.

 

This is certainly not unique to situations involving Infidelity.

[Brokenlady]

Hi guys,

 

Reading this post has really helped. Have recently posted this in 'break ups' but is probably more relevant here:

 

Am feeling absolutely and utterly desperate today. I think I know what your answers will be, but think I need to hear them anyway as I am at the lowest point I have ever been.

 

---snip---

 

So, I know the general advice will be to break away, grow strong etc etc but I think I just need to hear it from you all as you have all helped me before.

 

I'd also love to know stories, good and bad, of DPs that have wavered and how people coped.

 

Tasha,

I'm so sorry this happened to you. There's several OW's here that have had the same thing happen. If you search around, you can find the more detailed version of my story, but the short version is this. MM and I were together for several years and then he finally decided he wanted to be with me. He promised he'd move out and divorce and in the meantime, his wife found out what was going on. He gaslighted and denied everything. But, about a year later, he finally moved out. He'd started in individual therapy, and had lots of ups and downs. Every other month he'd break down and tell me he had to go back to his W. His W filed for divorce and it was finalized, but that seemed to change nothing. He'd still sleep over at her house sometimes and refused to have his weekend and other visits with his kids at his own house. He said he was drowning in guilt.

 

We got engaged, and still no changes. And then I discovered thru talking with his xW all the lies he'd been telling me. He took her on vacation behind my back last summer and lied to her about our engagement. He told her I was crazy and misinterpreted a "friendship ring". I read her the card he gave me with it and offered to show her the appraisal which showed it was very excessive for a friendship ring. There are other things, but these two hurt the most. He admitted to these.

 

I couldn't trust him anymore - and my trust was shaky already because of many years of broken promises, so I left. Then he started getting mean and demanding the ring back. (I wasn't inclined to give it because of his lies and deception. I'd rather have thrown it in the garbage than have him benefit from it. And he can make that money in a week, not like he'll miss it. ) Anyway, I've felt gutted. Devastated beyond belief.

 

The only way to go is out. Even if he surfaces again, how will you trust him not to do this to you again? And it sounds like this was sort of out of the blue - makes me think he was talking with the W about reconciliation behind your back.

 

Take care.

[wheelwright]

It just seems to me that someone has their head well and truly in the clouds if they think the BS is betrayed less than the OW. Just because the WS does not love, doesn't mean the BS does not either. Just because it may be expected, does not also make it less of a betrayal to the BS.

 

I agree that if the BS is still all heart invested in the M, then of course the betrayal is a deep one.

 

I guess what I said above only holds true if the love in the M has greatly diminished or disappeared on both sides.

 

I think this can be true, and I also said that if the WS's heart is still really in the M, then it would be a terrible self betrayal to walk away from the M. I did not mean to raise hackles - just wanted to pull out the different kinds of betrayal which might be involved. And that the attendant hurt might be worse for an OW in some circumstances.

Edited February 21, 2010 by wheelwright
changed something

[anne1707]

I did not mean to raise hackles - just wanted to pull out the different kinds of betrayal which might be involved. And that the attendant hurt might be worse for an OW in some circumstances.

 

I can get that

 

I am coming from the postion of former WS so I was the one who betrayed both my H and the ex-OM and I know which one was hurt the most in my case.

 

I can assure you that I do not consider the OW/OM to be a completely heartless bi***/ba***** from h*** or the WS to be a faultless saint. The WS hurts them both and I would never want to categorically state that this one always hurts more than the other - it all depends on the very personal circumstances of that triangle.

[pureinheart]

Hi guys,

 

Reading this post has really helped. Have recently posted this in 'break ups' but is probably more relevant here:

 

Am feeling absolutely and utterly desperate today. I think I know what your answers will be, but think I need to hear them anyway as I am at the lowest point I have ever been.

 

I started an affair with my DP about 20 months ago (again, I realise some of you will say this is karma, but I had never, ever felt this way about someone before. Ever. Thinking of him made me feel dizzy and although I broke it off twice during this time, I just couldn't cope without him). He had also had 2 other (short term) affairs before me so I managed to convince myself that their marriage failing was not my fault - whether it was or not I now don't know.

 

His wife found out last July and when she confronted him, he admitted it and left her, moving into rented accommodation immediately and saying we could finally be together. Since then we had a couple of 'wobbles' (never going back to her, but just hard points where he was quite down), as he desperately missed having his boys around permanently, but around October time it all settled down and he seemed continually happy (and more importantly, so did his 2 boys, who I have not yet met). We talked about moving forward, marriage, meeting his children, becoming a stepmom, he spent Christmas at mine, we spent time with each others friends and families, were due to go on holiday in 2 weeks etc etc.

 

Then last weekend his ex and 2 boys went skiing for the first time without him. He was very quiet for a couple of days, and then Tuesday morning told me that he didn't know what he wanted anymore, broke down and said he just didn't know what to do. He said he needed Tuesday night to think, then texted me Wednesday morning to say he wanted a separation and needed to be alone to give his family a chance.

 

He'd said on Tuesday morning he felt he needed someone to talk to, so I sent him therapist details, told him that I honestly believe his boys would be happier seeing their dad with someone who he loves and who loves him (his ex was very, very cold to him - I know this from hearing them both talk about their break up and the effect her actions had on the children etc).

 

I haven't heard anything since then and am an absolute mess. I have had bad relationships before and finally felt this was going to be a happy future and honestly thought he did too.

 

So, I know the general advice will be to break away, grow strong etc etc but I think I just need to hear it from you all as you have all helped me before.

 

I'd also love to know stories, good and bad, of DPs that have wavered and how people coped.

 

Thank you all,

 

T

xx

 

Hi T

 

BTW, it's really jacked up what happened to you....((((((((huggggs)))))

Edited February 22, 2010 by pureinheart

[OWoman]

But here is the problem. The fact that you once accepted just what you are now laying down the law about not accepting. You once accepted the A and all that came with it. I truly believe that the MM has to adjust to the expectation of fidelity in some cases. Some never can see that the OW never intended to share them with their BW forever.

 

 

 

 

This is funny. You are so right that it isn't always the OW that wants the man to change. And in these cases, there usually is a D.

 

 

 

You are right. It IS an unfair generalization, but its the one I know and have lived. Both women want him to be a better man, but one seemed to demand that he turn his back on all that he knew before. It IS unfair to the OW to want normalcy and want him to be loyal according to her needs. But A aren't set up that way, and in them the OW teaches the MM how to treat her. Everytime she holds her tongue when she should have stood up for herself, she sets a standard that she knows she doesn't want, but he gets used to having.

 

And as for all that the W wants, that's true. I include all that generally under "stop cheating, and recommit". LOL. For simplicity.

 

 

 

Again, I don't think its unreasonable. Its what any woman would want. But we are talking about a MM here. A man who got used to being catered to by the OW, accommodated, and the like. He is going to push back again these demands. Then starts the flip-flopping. He may very well want to get out of his M. That's not the issue. There is a reason that so few actually get into a R with the OW they cheated with. It seems to me that they can't get around the paramaters they put on the AR, and want something/someone not "tainted" by those unfair expectations/limitations in there thinking.

 

NID I think your points are very salient, which I why I bang on and on and on about OW needing to set the terms of the A upfront, to demand to be treated in the A as they would in any other R - so that the tone for the future as well as for the present is set, and so the OW does not have to be "second best". It's not unrealistic - I've had many As, that has been my ground rule in all of them, and not once has an MM ever walked away from the negotiating table saying it was too much to deliver on. They delivered on it. And, even if they couldn't, it would have been their loss and not mine - if they admitted that they were unwilling / "unable" to meet my terms, I'd have had a heads-up that they weren't that into the idea, that the A / I wasn't important enough to them to warrant the kind of treatment I wanted, and I'd have known I was wasting my time.

 

It is really difficult to change the dynamics of a R once they are ingrained. Not impossible - as those who've reconciled Ms after As, or have undergone MC to address other problems, can attest. But very difficult not to slip back into easy, comfortable, established patterns - particularly for the one who is most benefitted by those. If a MM is used to have an OW wrap herself into a pretzel to meet his needs, he's not easily going to cede that expectation just because he's shuffled the BW off the scene. He's fallen for the pretzel woman, and it's her he wants to be with, not the dominatrix who was lurking inside the pretzel all the time. And, if his pretzel suddenly turns into a dominatrix, the blinkers fall from his eyes and he suddenly starts looking at his bitchwife more favourably, because.... at least she's a known quantity. She's not about to morph into some hellbeast at full-moon and want him to become the pretzel - unlike the OW who's suddenly grown teeth and claws and found her voice!

[Hazyhead]

Hi guys,

 

Reading this post has really helped. Have recently posted this in 'break ups' but is probably more relevant here:

 

Am feeling absolutely and utterly desperate today. I think I know what your answers will be, but think I need to hear them anyway as I am at the lowest point I have ever been.

 

I started an affair with my DP about 20 months ago (again, I realise some of you will say this is karma, but I had never, ever felt this way about someone before. Ever. Thinking of him made me feel dizzy and although I broke it off twice during this time, I just couldn't cope without him). He had also had 2 other (short term) affairs before me so I managed to convince myself that their marriage failing was not my fault - whether it was or not I now don't know.

 

His wife found out last July and when she confronted him, he admitted it and left her, moving into rented accommodation immediately and saying we could finally be together. Since then we had a couple of 'wobbles' (never going back to her, but just hard points where he was quite down), as he desperately missed having his boys around permanently, but around October time it all settled down and he seemed continually happy (and more importantly, so did his 2 boys, who I have not yet met). We talked about moving forward, marriage, meeting his children, becoming a stepmom, he spent Christmas at mine, we spent time with each others friends and families, were due to go on holiday in 2 weeks etc etc.

 

Then last weekend his ex and 2 boys went skiing for the first time without him. He was very quiet for a couple of days, and then Tuesday morning told me that he didn't know what he wanted anymore, broke down and said he just didn't know what to do. He said he needed Tuesday night to think, then texted me Wednesday morning to say he wanted a separation and needed to be alone to give his family a chance.

 

He'd said on Tuesday morning he felt he needed someone to talk to, so I sent him therapist details, told him that I honestly believe his boys would be happier seeing their dad with someone who he loves and who loves him (his ex was very, very cold to him - I know this from hearing them both talk about their break up and the effect her actions had on the children etc).

 

I haven't heard anything since then and am an absolute mess. I have had bad relationships before and finally felt this was going to be a happy future and honestly thought he did too.

 

So, I know the general advice will be to break away, grow strong etc etc but I think I just need to hear it from you all as you have all helped me before.

 

I'd also love to know stories, good and bad, of DPs that have wavered and how people coped.

 

Thank you all,

 

T

xx

 

T, I'm so sorry - what a horrible thing to happen to you. I'm guessing there there is not a lot right now that anyone can say to make you feel better, but if he can't put you first - not before his kids but before himself, which regardless of his children he didn't do which is evident even in the way he just took off, you are better off without him. Time is a healer and you will rise from this.

 

(((hugs)))

[Brokenlady]

BL, I belong to 2 step-parenting boards and I can tell you without a doubt, MANY new wives/girflfriends DO believe the parents should NEVER interact again -- especially since there is a NEW girl in the relationship.

 

I have seen so many stepmothers (SM) believe that their H, the father, should never speak to his former wife. They believe any communication should be between the NEW wife and the former wife. Seriously. These women are DELUSIONAL. They don't want the former wife calling for any reason, yet they get pissed if the former wife doesn't ask the father of the kids views on things regarding the kids.

 

Yeah, that is total crap for any person to do to their partner who has kids. I wouldn't tolerate any bf of mine telling me I could not cooperate with my xH as a coparent, nor would I ever expect or even want a bf of mine to not cooperate with the mother of his children. (With the understanding that the coparenting relationship is platonic and in no way a way to keep romantic nostalgia alive - there should be normal boundaries).

 

FO, I suspect this is really more of a problem with women who don't have kids of their own from someone else. It's hard to understand the neccessities of the relationship unless you've been through it. It's definitely not specific to fOW-fMM relationships.

 

As a divorced mom, I DO feel the parents should communicate -- me and him. NOT me and her, not him and my H. Him and I. Thankfully, my H and I were both "married with kids" before we met so we got it. So many new wives who had never been married and/or never had kids in a former relationship just DO NOT GET IT.

 

So right. And that is exactly why I would not date someone who doesn't already have kids of their own. (That, and I don't want to have any more children or hear whining about depriving said bf of the opportunity to be a father.)

 

Yes, boundaries need to be in place. My ex would never think he could come to my home with my H and "hang out" yet my H's ex felt she could

No worries, we fixed that not long after we were married. IF handled correctly, the parents CAN co-exist and co-parent well,

 

Boundaries are a good thing, and absolutely neccessary.

 

but like I said, I belong to 2 step-parenting boards and I can easily say that 90% of these new wives cannot, CANNOT deal and want the parents to never speak again, want the children to go away and want to pretend like the H was a virgin who never dated prior to them meeting. There is so much whining about "not getting first" and competition between the new wife and the former wife. It is really sad and pathetic, to be honest, to read so many of the stories.

 

Very sad if true. But I do want to point out that men are just as likely to want to pretend their gf's/wives were virgins before them. It's lame all the way around, and no one should take out on the children the fact that they are so insecure as to want to pretend their SO had no sexual life before them.