An open letter on behalf of single mothers...

[Barky]

I've never heard of this happeneing in New York unless you married her & adopted the kids.

 

You are correct. DNA tests are a man's best friend (usually)

 

She could however file for alimoney.

Once NYS finds a guy to pay child support, they will make him pay even if it turns out NOT to be his kid. So make sure any single mother is receiveing child support allready. if so, she can never go after you for it.

 

First statement is false, second statement is only true sometimes. You can't be held to pay for another man's child except in certain circumstances (ie you're married to the woman at the time, if you wait too long to contest the finding of parentage, or if you sign an admission of parentage which you should never do.)

 

You can't get alimony if you weren't married to the person. Years ago there was a case with Lee Marvin where some woman tried (it was called "palimony" in the papers at the time) but it got to (I think) the supreme court which overturned it.

 

What I do see in NYS is when a man paying child support gets married, the ex-wife goes after his new wife's money to try & boost her child support.

 

This may be true, I don't know.

[Trimmer]

My main reason for not dating single moms is that I don't a woman that views men and fathers as disposable and not needed. Too many women have a fatherless kid just to show the world how independent they are and I think that is disgusting.

And here, I would have thought that your "main reason" would have been, uh, because you're married ? ! ? !

[Woggle]

And here, I would have thought that your "main reason" would have been, uh, because you're married ? ! ? !

 

That is the main reason but in my single days this is a reason I would not dated a single mom. It speaks volumnes about how she really feels about men though I admit there situations where good women find themselves raising a child on their own.

[Trimmer]

That is the main reason but in my single days this is a reason I would not dated a single mom. It speaks volumnes about how she really feels about men though I admit there situations where good women find themselves raising a child on their own.

Heh heh... this reminds me so much of an old, disgustingly racist shopowner for whom I worked in my youth. He was convinced that all them "cans..." - the Afri-cans and the Mexi-cans - were worthless good-for-nothings, barely deserving human status.

 

Yet he would deal quite honorably and respectfully with them as individuals, even seeming to hold a genuinely positive opinion about some of them, just like, say, "real people." And he would usually explain this disparity, almost apologetically, with the comment, "Well, he's one of the 'good ones'. "

 

It always interested me that he was never able to take a step back and see that the exposures of his own life-experience were specific and limited, and didn't warrant denigrating a whole class of human beings in this way, nor was he thoughtful enough to consider his experiences with the unique individuals all around him - the 'good ones' - and open his mind to the possibility that, just maybe, his limited life experiences had stamped him with an impression that was not truly accurate across the board.

 

The philosophy he was working from was concrete and unviolable, and anything else that didn't match it, had to be bent and twisted to fit it. There were exceptions all over the place, but no matter what, they didn't induce him to even consider the accuracy of the rule.

 

But I'm sure you're completely different.

Edited February 28, 2010 by Trimmer

[Barky]

he was never able to take a step back and see that the exposures of his own life-experience were specific and limited

 

Nobody really can. Some do to greater or lesser degree, but one can't see the back of one's head.

[EarthSea]

My GF of 6 years is a single mother and I have dated quite a few single moms (both before and after I had 2 kids of my own).

 

I will say on balance, but not always - men that are parents themselves, IMHO, have a better understanding and appreciation for the mother role. We also get that it's a little hard to be romantic when dinner needs to be on the table for the kiddos. Of course, eventually - they go to bed.

 

I'm a dedicated divorced dad, though my kids are older now(late teens) so I have more freedom - but for many years I was a "soccer dad" and I can tell ya, before I had kids - I just did not get what it really took to be a single mom. Though please know that I never saw single moms as some kind of castaways - rather just more busy, but also more of all the points you mentioned.

 

Keep the faith - you sound like a great mom! No need to compromise that for a man; the right guy will get what you need as a mother and as an independent woman.

 

Best wishes!

[nowomanocry]

Dear Potential Date:

 

I am a single mother. While I will never apologize for the existence of my children, I am beginning to feel ashamed of my history. I am feeling ashamed of my eight year marriage during which time I worked/cared for two little children/did a boatload of volunteer work in support of other military spouses (while their father was deployed two times, I might add. I feel that the last ten years of my life have brought me to a place where the only adjectives used to describe me are needy and desperate. I am anything but.

 

I am attractive, fun, educated, financially independent and, yes, a good mother, a mother who goes beyond what is necessary to give her children a happy childhood. Yet, because I bought into the whole "marriage" idea and it did not work out for me, I am a social pariah, having been told that "No good man will ever want you" and that "You should take whatever you can get."

 

Men won't even give me a shot and I think it is unfair. I really do. Consider how a single mother could enhance your life:

 

1) We have experienced emotional highs and lows. We have good coping skills and we are not high maintenance.

 

2) We are not dying to get married unlike my 30something single peers who wanted an engagement ring yesterday.

 

3) We already have childrearing experience. If you do not have a child and we end up having a family, our experience will be invaluable.

 

4) We can be alone if you need to have a guy's weekend or travel a lot for your job. We are used to flying solo and can deal.

 

5) We have been hurt (in most cases) and are sensitive to not hurting you. We don't sweat the small stuff.

 

6) We are organized. If I plan time out of my busy schedule to have coffee with you, I will give you my full attention; it took a lot of work to set aside that time. If we set aside that time for you, be grateful...it means we think a lot of you.

 

I am sure that some incredible single mothers-and dads!-can add to the list.....

 

Thanks for posting this, it is so sincere, so straight from the heart and really touched me because my ex- was a single mother of 4 kids (3 teen boys and 1 toddler) and what you wrote down up there is so true.. She broke up with me and despite all my anger, sadness and frustration, the grief she cause me, I am still thinking about how she's doing

lately because I am still in love with her.

 

It was an LDR and didn't work out because of her being in UK and me being here. We had 3 years of relationship and I mean at short it was excellent! She ended it due to not being able to get together and she could not cope with me not being there with her mostly due to finance reasons and immigration shiat.. She couldn't come here because of the kids I couldn't go because of immigration rules etc. and my dad being very sick trying to get him back on track again

 

Anyways, would love to hear your good news and hopefully you finding the person you deserve (you certainly do deserve a good bloke)

 

I am never a religious person or a believer... but a quote just flashed back into my mind .. Prophet Mohammed said (it is not the exact translation but the closest I can find) "Mums are sacred and for them heaven is just a step away..." I think anyone regarless of their beliefs would agree to that. At least I do.

 

Take great care, good luck

[Barky]

I totally agree. I'm amazed that single parents can take care of a kid/kids, plus go to work, plus take care of the house, plus go to baseball practice... I don't have a kid and I'm amazed that single moms can do all that stuff.

 

But it doesn't make me want them more, you see? Single moms are low on the dating totem pole. No amount of whining will change that.

[silverfish]

I totally agree. I'm amazed that single parents can take care of a kid/kids, plus go to work, plus take care of the house, plus go to baseball practice... I don't have a kid and I'm amazed that single moms can do all that stuff.

 

But it doesn't make me want them more, you see? Single moms are low on the dating totem pole. No amount of whining will change that.

 

I like this post despite your last statement. The comments from men that say 'it's not for me'....I completely understand, because it wouldn't have been for me either before I had my kids.

 

I like that you respect single parents, even if you wouldn't date one. I think it sums up what the problem is....lack of respect on one side and whinging on the other.

[Silver_star]

My main reason for not dating single moms is that I don't a woman that views men and fathers as disposable and not needed. Too many women have a fatherless kid just to show the world how independent they are and I think that is disgusting.

I disagree with this statement because a child simply doesnt become "fatherless" because the mom doesnt want to see the father of her child anymore. The child becomes fatherless if the man isnt being a father and being responsible enough to see his child, and that means taking action and BEING there. Its his right, and if he chooses NOT to be there, well then thats disgusting.

[silverfish]

I disagree with this statement because a child simply doesnt become "fatherless" because the mom doesnt want to see the father of her child anymore. The child becomes fatherless if the man isnt being a father and being responsible enough to see his child, and that means taking action and BEING there. Its his right, and if he chooses NOT to be there, well then thats disgusting.

 

I agree....and no child is fatherless unless there has been some leap in scientific development that I haven't heard about yet. Even if there was, can't think of anyone I know who has kids, who at the point of conception or anytime after thought...'hey who is this bozo, I can do much better on my own!'

 

Something happened with that relationship...someone did something or took actions or not to lead to the parents of the child no longer being capable of having a relationship WITH EACHOTHER....

 

Its a shame that what happens after that decision is made (the relationship is over) that so many men pout and take it out on their children as a way of getting one over on the mother, at the expense of their children. Hindsight is a wonderful thing!

 

I think some men get jealous that their woman hasn't got so much time for them, can't pander to their needs like they used to, and has a new 'love of their life' that they feel replaces them, and they can't handle it...but they never admit it because it would be an afront to their manhood.

 

Bad day...grrrr...but I admire the honestly of those who say it's not for them moreso than the men who do the wife and 2 kids thing because it makes them look good as a man, without accepting the warts and all reality of being a parent.

[marsle85]

What's the point of having kids if they are not your blood? The very point of having children is to pass on your genes to the future generations. A guy who works his ass off to feed to cloth someone else's kids is the ultimate expression of evolutionary failure.

 

Well that's completely true if you're banking your entire case on Evolutionary Theory... a theory which has its own faults. One being that clearly couples that "evolutionarily" cannot have children, still adopt and pursue a life with children. And even if you express this tendency as an emotional evolution that has sparked in humans, it's contradicted by other animals taking in babies that are not their own. While I can understand why many do not target this option, it's not because of fear of evolutionary failure.

[Trimmer]

Well that's completely true if you're banking your entire case on Evolutionary Theory... a theory which has its own faults. One being that clearly couples that "evolutionarily" cannot have children, still adopt and pursue a life with children. And even if you express this tendency as an emotional evolution that has sparked in humans, it's contradicted by other animals taking in babies that are not their own. While I can understand why many do not target this option, it's not because of fear of evolutionary failure.

Indeed - and strict adherence to the "evolutionary benefits" guideline would generally eliminate many of the helping behaviors we take for granted (why have fire departments and paramedics? Isn't having to ask for this kind of help an admission of "evolutionary failure?"), medicine, health care to treat disease or injury, etc. All these things also speak: evolutionary failure.

 

So yeah, why would anyone want to do any of those?

[Barky]

Actually evolutionary theory accounts for those behaviors as well

[Trimmer]

Actually evolutionary theory accounts for those behaviors as well

Care to back that up? And then if you can twist it so far that it supports those, I bet I can use similar twists to explain how and why it supports someone marrying a woman with an existing child, as opposed to considering that path an "evolutionary failure."

[Barky]

I have no desire to explain evolutionary theory to random people on the internet. If you're against it, nothing anyone says will convince you anyway.

[meerkat stew]

Aiee with the evolutionary stuff used to justify anything at all. We have big brains capable of rational thought for a reason, -that- is our primary evolutionary mandate, end of story.

[Tnerforireyeh]

Care to back that up? And then if you can twist it so far that it supports those, I bet I can use similar twists to explain how and why it supports someone marrying a woman with an existing child, as opposed to considering that path an "evolutionary failure."

 

Studies show you're more willing to help people who are genetically closer to you. The closer they are, the more you're willing to "sacrifice" for them. Genetically homogeneous cultures have less social strife and more social welfare than non. See the Asian countries and the Nordic countries.

[Trimmer]

Studies show you're more willing to help people who are genetically closer to you. The closer they are, the more you're willing to "sacrifice" for them. Genetically homogeneous cultures have less social strife and more social welfare than non. See the Asian countries and the Nordic countries.

I hear you and I'm quite familiar with these basics of evolutionary theories, but your comment doesn't address why it's become standard practice for helpers like firefighters, paramedics, and doctors to help those who are not "genetically close" to them. That was my point, and Barky claimed these behaviors could be "accounted for by evolutionary theory." I don't doubt that it can be done - hey college kids use "evolutionary theory" to explain why they have to get drunk, put holes in walls, and act like pigs in their quest to get laid. I'm sure it can explain just about anything.

 

So once he twists it and turns it and gets it all nice and soft and flexible, I'll mold it to fit the case of the man who marries a woman with an existing child, to show that this doesn't represent "evolutionary failure."

[Tnerforireyeh]

Hey, clearly you have some issues with Darwin, and I ain't here to debate it. Assuming you didn't go to school in the midwest you know as much about evolution as you need to to make up your mind. If you don't buy it, you don't buy it; either side can rebut the other side's evidence 'till the cows come home.

[bayouboi]

I hear you and I'm quite familiar with these basics of evolutionary theories, but your comment doesn't address why it's become standard practice for helpers like firefighters, paramedics, and doctors to help those who are not "genetically close" to them.

 

Because they get paid.

[lino]

Wow this is still going?

 

You can't force a childless, single guy into dating a single mum. Simple as that. Those that will be into it will be interested in single mothers, those who aren't into it won't.

[Trimmer]

Hey, clearly you have some issues with Darwin, and I ain't here to debate it. Assuming you didn't go to school in the midwest you know as much about evolution as you need to to make up your mind. If you don't buy it, you don't buy it; either side can rebut the other side's evidence 'till the cows come home.

Actually no, I'm a staunch supporter of evolution and natural selection, etc. and I'm firmly against the idea that you can create a "science" out of the creation story by adding "-ism" to it...

 

I'm just making a very narrow point about the 'evolutionary theory of behavior' that is often co-opted to "explain" an ever wider range of behaviors. My whole point was in response to Johnny M' s assertion that, essentially "why in the world would a man join with a woman who already has a kid that's not his, as that represents evolutionary failure?"

 

My point is not that I have "issues" with evolution, it's that we socially exhibit lots of behaviors that don't adhere to the fundamental concept that we are inherently, instinctively driven to help our own genetic line and to compete for resources with others. Barky claimed evolutionary theory could explain that, without elaborating. This is the point at which evolutionary theorists start broadening their view and talking about helping others "like us" as a genetic benefit - I get that, but the connection with "Darwin" and evolution starts to get a little fuzzy here, the farther afield you take it. Because pretty soon you can pretty much extend it to, well, anything we do that feels good is a "benefit," and that's good for my survival, so I get to stay around long enough and stay healthy enough to reproduce. Hmmm... can't that explain just about anything that "feels good?"

 

Yeah, so then I will explain - a little tongue-in-cheek - that this is how I explain a man marrying a woman who already has a kid, and how that's not "eveolutionary failure." Hey, he's got a warm, safe home and a partner to share his life and who cares about him, and who might reproduce with him in the future. For some men, that's a greater potential for survival and passing on their genes than they might otherwise be able to hope for, therefore grabbing that opportunity is the preferred evolutionary behavior.

 

Again, that's all kinda tongue-in-cheek - my main point is that just jumping to "evolutionary theory" to explain ALL of our behaviors is overly simplistic, in reference to the absolutist stand that "marrying a woman with a kid" is clearly "evolutionary failure" and therefore mystifying and impossible to understand.

Edited March 3, 2010 by Trimmer

[MizzBella]

This thread is really interesting to me - probably because I am a single mom.

 

I know I am going to get smacked for this one, but I also wouldn't consider dating MOST men with children even though I have 2 of my own children. I have dated one guy with a little boy and have watched many of my single friends date guys with kids. And, you know, it isn't the kids that are the problem - it is the crazy ex girlfriend or ex-wife!

 

I have done as much as possible to make my situation as good as possible for myself and whomever I date (great job, my own house - so no need for a man's money, and 50/50 custody - so I have time to date), but I would still never expect a man to take on my 2 kids without putting a lot of thought into it. It is hard for me to believe those women who say they are not looking for a father figure for their children, especially if their kids are young-ish like mine are. Of course my kids have a bio father, but anyone who would ever choose to marry me must also behave like a father-figure (duh).

[Eeyore79]

Firstly I would like to say that I do know single mothers who have found loving partners, and I do know decent men who have chosen to marry a single mother. But I think they're somewhat in the minority, as many people have a preference for someone who has never been married and has no children. I think it's harder for single mothers because they usually have custody; single fathers are more desirable because their kids don't live with them and thus don't affect their girlfriends' lives so much.

 

Personally I have no children, and I don't want to date a man who has children, or who has been married. I guess my reasons for not dating such a man would apply equally to single mothers too, so I'll try to explain:

 

1) Sharing "firsts": I want my marriage and childbirth to be special, a "first" experience that we share together, and I don't feel it will be as special if he's done it all before.

 

2) The ex: I'd be more inclined to date a widowed man with kids as his ex wouldn't be hanging around, because I wouldn't fancy having to interact with his ex, much less pretend to be friends. Call it jealousy if you like; she had my man and had all the firsts with him, he loved her once, she occupies a special place in his life as the mother of his kids, so I immediately hate her. He's my man and I don't want to share him with an ex, I don't want to feel this constant jealousy. Not to mention she could be a right pain in the posterior, and she's never going to go away.

 

3) Time and money: I want to do the adult things that I want to do, when I want to do them; I want to spend money on what I want, and I don't want to spend money on someone else's kids and have to rearrange my schedule to suit them, or take part in "kiddy activities". If they don't live with him, they could be dumped on him at any time and would then impact upon my life and my freedom. If they were my kids it would be different, but they're not; I'm not prepared to make compromises for kids that aren't even mine, and I would be resentful if his ex came after us for increased child support based on my salary.

 

4) Sharing finances: I would always feel resentful of the money that his kids cost, because I want our future kids to have everything we can give them, so I feel like I'd be doing them a disservice by choosing a daddy who has to give part of his income away to someone else's kids. In effect, every penny he spends on his other kids would be a penny taken away from our kids. That's before we even talk about how much our kids' inheritance would be reduced after his other kids wanted a share.

 

5) Sharing time: In a similar way, I want my future kids to have all of their daddy's free time and attention; I don't want them to have to share him with other kids who take him away from them every other weekend.

 

6) I'm not the parent: If the kids are rude or nasty I'm not in a position to deal with it. If I disagree with how they're being raised, or how their mother treats them, I have to bite my lip. I have very little control over parenting but I would still be expected to assume a parenting role of sorts, only without the power.

 

7) Grandchildren: The whole cycle starts all over again when grandchildren arrive, and the kids themselves may need additional financial and emotional support to cope (i.e. more time and money expended). I haven't even raised my own kids yet; I'm certainly not ready to be a step-grandparent.

 

8) Divorce: Second marriages are statistically less likely to last, and if the guy made promises to his ex that he didn't keep, how could I trust him to keep them with me? Marrying a divorced guy just doesn't seem like the best bet, especially when I have other options.

 

The part about having "other options" is key, because as I get older I increasingly find my options dwindling. More guys my age (30) are divorced or have kids, and those who don't have often remained single because they're undesirable. As single mothers get older, they may find that men are more accepting because of the reduction in alternative options. However I tried dating divorced guys with kids and it was just too problematic, so I resorted to dating slightly younger guys who are less likely to have baggage. Once upon a time I thought nothing of a guy being single with no kids, because all of the guys my age were, but as I get older I find myself rating "single, no kids" as a huge plus because of its increasing rarity.

 

I think in general, a person who is themselves divorced with kids is more likely to accept someone else who's in the same boat. They're not bothered about "firsts" and exes, because they've already had both themselves, and they're not bothered about accommodating someone else's kids because someone else has to accommodate their kids too, so it's all equal. The problem often arises when a single person feels resentful about having to accommodate another person's baggage when they have none themselves.

 

Having said that, both the single man and the divorced father are in a better situation than the single mother... the single man is highly desirable as his rarity increases in a particular age group, and the divorced father has the advantage over the mother that he has a job (i.e. money) and no custody (i.e. freedom), so both can usually snag single women if they want them (which many do, for the same reasons as I listed above). This unfortunately makes life difficult for the single mother who's looking for a partner... she often ends up with the guys who can't get a single woman (desperate and/or undesirable), or (if she's extremely lucky) the decent guy who is willing to accommodate her kids and raise them... although she usually has to otherwise be a pretty good catch to attain the latter.

Edited March 10, 2010 by Eeyore79