Dating Questions About Assertive Women

[Calendula]

A recent thread (http://www.loveshack.org/forums/showthread.php?p=2626552#post2626552) got me thinking about why assertive women seem more likely to stay lonely or seem to have trouble finding men who will partner them. Why do we seem to have this problem, and what could possibly be done about it by men or women? The question asked in the thread was “Is an aggressive woman a turn off?” with later discussion substituting the word ‘assertive’ for aggressive.

 

My first question, to build on OceanTropic’s original question, is therefore: Why is it that so many men seem to lack the insight to see that assertive, independent women also want to be taken care of on some level? Do you agree or disagree that it is primarily a lack of self confidence that leads so many men to doubt that they could make an assertive or independent woman happy? (see Point 1 below)

 

A corollary question I have for other independent, assertive women is: How similar are your experiences and/or feelings to mine? Are you also looking for a partner that can pick you up and support you during those rare times when you hit the bottom? Or are you more looking for someone you can control or manipulate, like so many men seem to think is the case? (see Point 2 below)

 

My questions build on the following points below:

 

Point 1

My initial response to OceanTropic’s thread was to think about how often assertiveness, actively taking steps towards achieving your goals and desires, can come across in negative ways (aggression, bossy, pushy, controlling, etc) depending on the approach the woman takes to getting what she wants. While I will admit that much of this depends on how a particular woman handles herself, I think many men often interpret such actions negatively, even when they are not.

 

One of the posters in the thread made the following point, which I agree with:

Because I have to be in charge at work, I quite often want a man to be in charge in the relationship, household, and bedroom. It's quite the turn-on.

 

When a woman has to lead all the time at her job or in other areas of her life, by choice or otherwise, it is nice to come home to someone who can take a turn at leading for a while. As an independent, assertive woman myself, I know I am perfectly capable of taking care of myself and I can do many things that some men don't even know how to do. I also know that I want the type of man I'm looking for to be able to take the lead as well, so I don't HAVE TO BE the one who is in charge all the time, making all the important decisions.

 

I think it comes down to a question of balance between partners. I don't think two leaders together will always butt heads, and those who successfully co-exist have figured out how to compromise and communicate, as well as how to work together and be supportive of each other. I think a good part of this depends on emotional maturity and communication skills, but I also think a lot of what helps keep the balance is the self-confidence level of each partner.

 

Point 2

The problem I see with being able to find the right guy for me is that I want someone who I feel can lead as well as I can and who would make decisions I could agree with and support him on, even if I wasn't around to consult (worst case scenario, I died and he was left to raise our kids without me). Figuring this out about someone while dating is the hard part, and I think it somewhat ties into how comfortable I am with sharing my innermost self (thoughts, feelings, etc) with someone during the early stages of a relationship.

 

Most people who get to know me see only the confident, capable, knowledgeable, and independent side of me. Very few people ever hear the little insecure voice deep inside that doubts my abilities or just wants to be taken care of. That little voice, that other side of my personality, is the part of me that leads me to want a partner who I know without a doubt I can trust to lead me when I'm feeling low or defeated. To get to see that side of me, the side I'm not proud of, the part of me I'm always working to improve on, I really have to trust the person. Such a level of trust requires time and tests (the serious kind that all relationships face), and can only be earned gradually.

 

I would be considered by most people to be an assertive woman, but I'm only human, and finding someone who could be my partner, who can see me beyond my strengths, fully accept my weaknesses and help me work on improving them, is something that often seems to me like an impossible task (I haven't stopped trying, though). Those who I 'scare away' are the ones who I think have trouble acknowledging that there is much more to me than they get to first see, who feel like everything is a competition, or who can’t accept it when I hit a low point and need their support and strength (falling from the pedestal they put me on). I think the ‘intimidation factor’ also kicks in for some men, and they let themselves feel like they can never be good enough or measure up to my standards, and so they quit even trying, forgetting that simply trying and believing in themselves counts for a lot. I’ve personally found that the ‘intimidation factor’ relates to the self-confidence and feelings of personal accomplishment the man has for himself, and no matter how much encouragement or reaffirmation I give, if they decide they don’t feel like they are good enough, it won’t matter what I say or do.

[torranceshipman]

I think the problem may be in how you come across to guys. We all need to act differently in different social situations - and being too aggressive in a dating/relationship situation can come across really badly, even if the guy likes a strong, independent type of woman. Maybe I'm wrong, I don't know you, but that might be the issue.

 

I know that my boyfriend loves strong, intelligent women who have an opinion, but the crucial thing is, not in an 'in your face' way. I.e. shouty women who talk a lot and dominate the conversation would be a turn off to him (I know this as someone we know is like this, and he commented on it).

 

I suppose I'd be the kind of woman you are referencing in your thread, and I've found my match but it took time. It helps that he is very successful but then again if a guy in ANY job has real self assurance he wont be threatened.

 

And my last point - depends how you define success and intelligence. If someone doesnt think you are quite as successful or intelligent as you think you are, then that can also be a huge turn off (i.e. lack of humility). And some men genuinly wont care about whether you're a success or not - but they will care about you having a warm heart, being genuine, feminine (for example) - how do you feel you are doing on those things? You don't need to wear success and intelligence like a badge and it migh tbe coming across a bit like that...

 

Edited to add...you come across in a competitive, slightly in your face way in your thread - I can see how this in real life might be a bit much for a guy! No disrespect meant, it is just how the thread sounds!

Edited February 9, 2010 by torranceshipman

[sullysteve]

OP, this is a great post.

 

My $0.02 re: your first question -

It boils down to two problems in my experience. First, lack of confidence. Yes, many men are intimidated by your success and assertiveness. This usually causes to come across as weak or to try to artificially overcompensate. Neither strategy works.

 

Second, lack of knowledge. Sadly, many men also simply lack the insight to see that even though you are an assertive and independent woman, you want someone to take charge when appropriate and to protect/nurture your vulnerable side. Unfortunately, you telling them isn't the solution as this is unattractive and defeats the whole point; it's something they have to figure out for themselves.

 

The good news is that these barriers can be overcome as the man builds confidence and gains life experience. So, my advice is to relax. The men you're looking for do exist, and they're looking for you too!

[phineas]

I like a woman that can make a decision without hemming & hawing & isn't afraid to voice her opinion.

 

I prefer the directness.

 

But, for the most part i've only met women that were bossy & it was their way or the highway & that's what I imagine when someone says "assertive woman"

 

Can the OP give an exmaple of her being assertive?

[stillafool]

A recent thread (http://www.loveshack.org/forums/showthread.php?p=2626552#post2626552) got me thinking about why assertive women seem more likely to stay lonely or seem to have trouble finding men who will partner them. Why do we seem to have this problem, and what could possibly be done about it by men or women? The question asked in the thread was “Is an aggressive woman a turn off?” with later discussion substituting the word ‘assertive’ for aggressive.

 

My first question, to build on OceanTropic’s original question, is therefore: Why is it that so many men seem to lack the insight to see that assertive, independent women also want to be taken care of on some level? Do you agree or disagree that it is primarily a lack of self confidence that leads so many men to doubt that they could make an assertive or independent woman happy? (see Point 1 below)

 

A corollary question I have for other independent, assertive women is: How similar are your experiences and/or feelings to mine? Are you also looking for a partner that can pick you up and support you during those rare times when you hit the bottom? Or are you more looking for someone you can control or manipulate, like so many men seem to think is the case? (see Point 2 below)

 

My questions build on the following points below:

 

Point 1

My initial response to OceanTropic’s thread was to think about how often assertiveness, actively taking steps towards achieving your goals and desires, can come across in negative ways (aggression, bossy, pushy, controlling, etc) depending on the approach the woman takes to getting what she wants. While I will admit that much of this depends on how a particular woman handles herself, I think many men often interpret such actions negatively, even when they are not.

 

One of the posters in the thread made the following point, which I agree with:

 

When a woman has to lead all the time at her job or in other areas of her life, by choice or otherwise, it is nice to come home to someone who can take a turn at leading for a while. As an independent, assertive woman myself, I know I am perfectly capable of taking care of myself and I can do many things that some men don't even know how to do. I also know that I want the type of man I'm looking for to be able to take the lead as well, so I don't HAVE TO BE the one who is in charge all the time, making all the important decisions.

 

I think it comes down to a question of balance between partners. I don't think two leaders together will always butt heads, and those who successfully co-exist have figured out how to compromise and communicate, as well as how to work together and be supportive of each other. I think a good part of this depends on emotional maturity and communication skills, but I also think a lot of what helps keep the balance is the self-confidence level of each partner.

 

Point 2

The problem I see with being able to find the right guy for me is that I want someone who I feel can lead as well as I can and who would make decisions I could agree with and support him on, even if I wasn't around to consult (worst case scenario, I died and he was left to raise our kids without me). Figuring this out about someone while dating is the hard part, and I think it somewhat ties into how comfortable I am with sharing my innermost self (thoughts, feelings, etc) with someone during the early stages of a relationship.

 

Most people who get to know me see only the confident, capable, knowledgeable, and independent side of me. Very few people ever hear the little insecure voice deep inside that doubts my abilities or just wants to be taken care of. That little voice, that other side of my personality, is the part of me that leads me to want a partner who I know without a doubt I can trust to lead me when I'm feeling low or defeated. To get to see that side of me, the side I'm not proud of, the part of me I'm always working to improve on, I really have to trust the person. Such a level of trust requires time and tests (the serious kind that all relationships face), and can only be earned gradually.

 

I would be considered by most people to be an assertive woman, but I'm only human, and finding someone who could be my partner, who can see me beyond my strengths, fully accept my weaknesses and help me work on improving them, is something that often seems to me like an impossible task (I haven't stopped trying, though). Those who I 'scare away' are the ones who I think have trouble acknowledging that there is much more to me than they get to first see, who feel like everything is a competition, or who can’t accept it when I hit a low point and need their support and strength (falling from the pedestal they put me on). I think the ‘intimidation factor’ also kicks in for some men, and they let themselves feel like they can never be good enough or measure up to my standards, and so they quit even trying, forgetting that simply trying and believing in themselves counts for a lot. I’ve personally found that the ‘intimidation factor’ relates to the self-confidence and feelings of personal accomplishment the man has for himself, and no matter how much encouragement or reaffirmation I give, if they decide they don’t feel like they are good enough, it won’t matter what I say or do.

 

 

You sound like a woman who has a high powered career. Have you tried dating men on your level who won't be intimidated by your success?

[Zeegagge]

 

My $0.02 re: your first question -

It boils down to two problems in my experience. First, lack of confidence. Yes, many men are intimidated by your success and assertiveness. This usually causes to come across as weak or to try to artificially overcompensate. Neither strategy works.

 

So what does work? It's just that I recently met a very confident, assertive woman. I was talking to her and trying to get to know her better, but I admit, I was a little intimidated. My first instinct was to run. My second instinct was damn, this girls fine! I guess the second instinct won because I stayed and talked. So, I may have her mildly interested in me but what the hell do I do now?

[meerkat stew]

Why is it that so many men seem to lack the insight to see that assertive, independent women also want to be taken care of on some level? Do you agree or disagree that it is primarily a lack of self confidence that leads so many men to doubt that they could make an assertive or independent woman happy? (see Point 1 below)

 

Can speak only from my own experience. Women I have dated at my career level have been bossy and materialistic, seeking to change aspects of me and my life very early in a relationship. Only a few datapoints though, for generalizing. I don't respond well to bossing, and am something of an anti-materialistic hippie in certain respects, despite the paper on the wall.

 

When I'm being pushed, I don't tend to show much affection, just keep my guard up and wait for the next salvo. In order to want to take care of someone, I need to feel respected and admired, something I haven't experienced from women on my level, but feel that I give those things to them freely and frequently. I also find problems with equal level career women in cutting loose and hanging out, something I'm -very- good at:laugh: Maybe I've just had bad luck.

 

I think many men often interpret such actions negatively, even when they are not.

 

How are we supposed to take, "Change your hairstyle, here use this face cream, take these vitamins, drink this, I bought you some cologne that I like, etc?" Have had one woman ask me to dress more fashionably, then the next one asks me to dress more preppy (Oh... you are wearing -that- leather jacket again).

 

When a woman has to lead all the time at her job or in other areas of her life, by choice or otherwise, it is nice to come home to someone who can take a turn at leading for a while.

 

Lots of men defer certain details to women as a matter of course. I could care less which party we go to and which we don't, where we eat (most of the time), what movie we watch. Start to talk about buying a computer, a car, or electronic equipment, outdoor activities, and I'm right there in the lead. Is this what you are talking about? or something else? When I'm home, I want to relax and play and have great sex, not worry about minute details of what we wear or what we do. Personally, I am seeking a relationship that is more natural, and doesn't require a leader that frequently.

 

(worst case scenario, I died and he was left to raise our kids without me).

 

Calendula, I mean this as a compliment, you have a very bright future in securities trading or analysis or even actuarial work ahead of you, something heavily analytical, but where relationships are concerned, especially early, this kind of hyper-analyzing will drive both you and him crazy. I realize it's worst case, but early on, you have to turn the analysis off sometimes and just have a flirty, fun attitude. Men are good at noticing when internal wheels are whirring and we are being computed into an actuarial table. It can be disconcerting.

 

That little voice, that other side of my personality, is the part of me that leads me to want a partner who I know without a doubt I can trust to lead me when I'm feeling low or defeated.

 

Sure, we all need support from time to time, only natural for both women and men, but would suggest that with the right partner, only the massive shocks (disease, death, other tragedy) will cause a low feeling, the right partner should keep us high otherwise, at least that's what I'm still striving for.

 

The rest of the post sounds like bad luck in selection, similar to what I have experienced. Few mature men are truly intimidated by women of any level of achievement, at least in my experience. If you are constantly digging up the ones who see everything as competition with you, that's just bad luck and bad apples. Many of us grow past that. Perhaps the answer is to up your contacts with different men and broaden your social circle.

[carhill]

So, I may have her mildly interested in me but what the hell do I do now?

 

Imagine, no matter how confident and assertive she is, she still sits on the toilet and poops, just like you do. If your styles mesh and you have compatibility, these aspects which cause you pause now will be gifts to be thankful for in a healthy LTR. If you see her appearance as 'fine' and confidence and assertiveness as intimidating, you're not there yet; not a good match. Will you be over time? Unknown.

 

Given the verbiage of the OP, I would also opine that she is in a high-powered career and will likely find her appropriate mate at that level of socio-economic success. I date white-collar women because I'm older and quite secure in what and who I am, even if there is dirt under the fingernails from work. I see success as a multi-faceted dynamic and don't look to society to define it for me. Is this woman good for me? If yes, go with that

[sullysteve]

Z: you call her and invite her out. Have a specific plan in mind. On the date, relax and have fun, but this is important: be sure not to agree with everything she says just to please her; she wants to hear your opinions and insights. Basically, be confident in yourself, but don't be an ******* just to make a point. Neither ends of the spectrum (wimp or jerk) is attractive. Have fun and report back!

[Zeegagge]

Imagine, no matter how confident and assertive she is, she still sits on the toilet and poops, just like you do. If your styles mesh and you have compatibility, these aspects which cause you pause now will be gifts to be thankful for in a healthy LTR. If you see her appearance as 'fine' and confidence and assertiveness as intimidating, you're not there yet; not a good match. Will you be over time? Unknown.

 

Given the verbiage of the OP, I would also opine that she is in a high-powered career and will likely find her appropriate mate at that level of socio-economic success. I date white-collar women because I'm older and quite secure in what and who I am, even if there is dirt under the fingernails from work. I see success as a multi-faceted dynamic and don't look to society to define it for me. Is this woman good for me? If yes, go with that

 

Well, when I say fine, I mean more like, OMG, I have to get to know her! She has pink highlights after all! *melts* I suppose it's intimidating because we're at the same sort of career level. I'm used to dating women below mine, and being a little bit of a provider, which I dont mind. It's just a new thing I suppose. She's also a little older than the women I've dated. I live in an interesting place where socio economic factors are waaaay less of a concern than anywhere else I've been. It's kind of nice. To be honest, Im not at all concerned about anything happening over time. Im more worried about right now. Got out of a LTR not too long ago, and not trying to get too serious to soon.

 

I have no lack of confidence in myself. I've pulled off some amazing things before and I can roll with this. It's just very different, I guess is why I'm a little intimidated. I'll work it out, always have Thanks for the response!

[Rulebreaker]

I'm really torn on this one. I'm applying the Rules right now, which aim to temper a woman's "intelligent, vivacious" personality in a way that allows him to take the lead early on in the relationship, setting the tone. You don't have to act unintelligent, just hold a bit back and be mysterious.

 

That said, I think there are guys who aren't threatened by an assertive woman and at the same time can hold their own. My brother grew up with three sisters, and married an incredibly assertive woman and they're a great couple. I like to take partial credit for his ability to handle a smart, independent woman.

[Woggle]

There is a huge difference between assertive and independent and bossy and belligerent. Sadly there are some women who claim to be the former when they are really the latter. What the OP describes as independent is simply being and an adult and taking care of herself which should be a given in any relationship prospect of either gender. What men are turned off by are the women who shout from the rooftop about how independent they are and how they don't need a man.

 

No woman should tone down her strength or intelligence to find a man but just simply show that you actually like men and are willing to be a partner with them.

[Zeegagge]

Z: you call her and invite her out. Have a specific plan in mind. On the date, relax and have fun, but this is important: be sure not to agree with everything she says just to please her; she wants to hear your opinions and insights. Basically, be confident in yourself, but don't be an ******* just to make a point. Neither ends of the spectrum (wimp or jerk) is attractive. Have fun and report back!

 

I'm just going to be myself which is a lot like what you described, fortunately. I've had people tell me I'm the cool confident type. I think it should work well. Thanks for the comeback!

[Calendula]

Thanks for all of the thoughtful responses posted so far! You have all brought out some excellent points. I asked the original questions more in a general sense, not specifically for my situation, but I will be replying to those of you who've inquired based on my personal experiences and observations. It will just take me a bit of time.

 

To anyone who has read the post and has an opinion, but hasn't contributed it yet, please do, even if it is just a question like ZG posted .

[counterman]

First, I would like to say that I have read only the opening post because I did not want what I say to be influenced by other people's words. If I happen to repeat a point already stated by another poster, know that it was unintentional.

 

I have always liked people who are assertive. When it comes to girls that I would date, if they are assertive I take that as a positive. However, assertiveness can quickly turn into aggression and unnecessary aggression, in my opinion, is unattractive. I am an assertive person myself. I'm confident in my ability and when I want to say something I will speak up. In relationships, I like to take the lead and I like to feel that I am needed as well, not all the time but at least some of the time. If there are any issues that I feel we need to discuss, I will bring it up and talk about it.

 

In my most recent relationship, my ex-girlfriend was selectively-assertive. She is a strong girl and will freely voice her opinion. From the start, I knew what I had on my hands and, as I had stated above, I do like assertive girls. However, I soon quickly discovered that this trait could easily have a negative side to it. It was used to hurt me through explosions of aggression. For example, the first time I asked whether I could hang out with her, her response was "if you want to hang out with me, then fine, but if you are not going to have fun, then just go home and please don't suffocate me". Bare in mind, this was the first time. She could have been more blatant. As our relationship developed, every issue I brought up was not met well by her and she would take it as a personal attack and would aggressively respond, often stating how I hurt her deliberately. In another regard, when factual information was shared, at times she would perceive that as me trying to show that I was far more intelligent than her and she would voice that, which we would then argue about. Every point I brought up was turned against me in an aggressive manner. Be assured, that I am a very confident man but my confidence then was just being broken down bit by bit as I tried increasingly harder to please her. I soon believed that she did not need me. I could make her happy but her perception of me, and having not really been into me from the start, just diminished any attempts that I have made.

 

As for initiating physical contact, I would often do that. That was openly welcomed at first and I think she enjoyed be taking charge in that aspect. However, her lack of interest soon showed and her displeasure was made clear whenever I tried to engage in any sexual act; she would say I expected too much from her and want too much. I actually felt guilty for that, when I should have.

 

She never admitted to her part in any issues and never apologised willingly. This conjured up an image of a perfect girl, who was indeed far from perfect. She was taken off her pedestal every time I brought up an issue and she hated that. Because of that, she saw me in a different light.

 

That is my first experience with an assertive woman. I am not saying that is what it will always be like, just merely sharing my personal perspective. Note how assertiveness can be taken the wrong way and note how it can quickly turn ugly. In saying that, I still prefer assertive women.

 

I believe that some men do know that assertive, independent women need to be taken care of in some level, however they have to be self-assured themselves to understand that they can make her happy. It does boil down to self-confidence as well. A man who is not confident in his ability and his own self will more likely be intimidated by an assertive, successful woman. More so, some would not feel like the man in the relationship and does not have the confidence to take charge.

 

Communication, as always, does play a key role in all of this. There has to be an understanding that having a relationship where both parties are assertive does not mean that it is a power struggle. It should not be a battle of who takes charge, but rather a compromise. Maturity should also be taken into against. It takes two people with similar maturity levels and emotional levels for this to work or else it could turn out like my last relationship.

 

As for the the little part inside that wants someone to look after us or to support us and have us lean on him/her, I think some (if not all) have that, whether we would like to admit it or not, or whether some realise it or not. This has to be realised by our partners, rather then told. Only the right person can achieve that all the time, right person for each of that is, fully accepting the flaws we have and our own insecurities. I think that if someone does feel strongly enough for another, then he/she will not be that easily intimidated and they will actually support each other when needed. Only someone we completely trust, can see the ugly side of us and accept it and help us through a tougher time. If there is any doubt in the partner, then reassurance and encouragement from the other is always welcomed and I can't stress that enough. The man does believe in himself sometimes, but just has some niggling doubts. A bit of support, give and take, will both help each other improve on this. I know you can make me happy and take care of me when needed because I trust you but you need to completely believe you can. In saying that, that person must have a certain level of self-confidence already.

 

What I found is, no matter how confident I was, there was always a bit of doubt. However, I am always upbeat, even when it comes to dire situations and this helps me overcome those doubts. In saying that, the support of my partner is needed, she has to accept that I am trying and that I feel that I am good enough to take care of her and she cannot be afraid to let her guard down for me to carry her. Because if she does not let me in or just not let me try or does not want to seem weak, over time (and a lot of time), we do lose confidence.

 

I hope most of that makes sense.

[Mr White]

There is a huge difference between assertive and independent and bossy and belligerent. Sadly there are some women who claim to be the former when they are really the latter. What the OP describes as independent is simply being and an adult and taking care of herself which should be a given in any relationship prospect of either gender. What men are turned off by are the women who shout from the rooftop about how independent they are and how they don't need a man.

 

No woman should tone down her strength or intelligence to find a man but just simply show that you actually like men and are willing to be a partner with them.

 

Yep, a succesful woman cannot intimidate me - she's still just a woman, like any other , her intelligence and success are only a plus.

 

But the problem is that often times success and intelligence are often used as an excuse to behave even worse than the average woman . Hey, just because you have a PhD doesn't mean that you aren't going to do any housework, ever, or that I should put up with more shet than usual .

[pantherj]

Masculine energy - powerful, dominant, attentive, leader, aggressive, observant, problem solver, decider, centered, admired, protective, fearless, strong, wise, assertive, proud, knowledgeable, balanced... ect.

 

Feminine energy - carefree, feeling, off center, funny, expressive, emotional, silly, romantic, fun loving, wild, sensual, unbalanced, in love, submissive, fantasy, nurturing, free, energetic... ect.

 

If you're a girl, and you know that you have mostly masculine energy, then you will most likely attract men with moslty feminine energy. Men, if you have mosly feminine energy, then you will attract women with mostly masculine energy. Masculine energy guy + masculine energy girl = fail. Fem energry guy + fem energy girl = fail.

 

At work, both men and women utilize their masculine energy, unless you have a rare job that requires mostly fem energy. However, in your social life, you are either mostly masculine, or mostly feminine. You prefer one over the other, and need to express that side. By need, I mean this has to be expressed, or you will certainly be unhappy and unfulfilled.

 

Be honest with yourself and who you are as a person. Women who have moslty masculine energy tend to lie to themselves and act as though they have hidden feminine energy. And that if they found the right man, then that energy would come out and be expressed. Hmm, interesting, but why then is she attracting feminine energy guys? Because those guys sense the masculine energy she is putting out, and they're interested. You will attract the opposite energy of what you're putting out. For example, a bunch of girls go out to a club, they drink and start dancing crazy, having a good time, men find out, go to the club and PAY to get into the club to be around them. Their fem energy is attracting masculine energy. When I say energy, I don't mean anything magical, just what we can perceive with our 5 senses.

 

What about feminine energy guys? Never seen a straight one? How about Michael Jackson? Johnny Depp? They're out there. Watch the 'Maury' tv show. Watch the paternity episodes, where Maury yells 'YOU ARE NOT THE FATHER'. Ok, now wait for a bossy, strong, assertive, aggressive woman to come out first. Now, she is clearly a vortex of masculine energy. I want you to guess what type of guy is coming around the corner after the commercial. What type of energy will her bf/husband have?

 

Here is an example of the energy at work in the homosexual community. 2 lesbian women, 1 dresses butch, acts like a guy, and has masculine energy on display. Her gf is the exact opposite. She dresses like a woman, and has feminine energy.

[callingyouuu]

My first question, to build on OceanTropic’s original question, is therefore: Why is it that so many men seem to lack the insight to see that assertive, independent women also want to be taken care of on some level? Do you agree or disagree that it is primarily a lack of self confidence that leads so many men to doubt that they could make an assertive or independent woman happy? (see Point 1 below)

I'm a guy, and to be completely honest, I would have never even thought about the fact that assertive women might need to be taken care of until I saw these posts on LS. Mindblowing.

 

For me, I think it's because assertive women, because of their traits, sometimes just seem like one of the guys. Guys never take care of guys. We talk, make fun of one another, and have great relationships, but we just don't pack lunches or pamper each other with spa treatments.

 

It's also, in some part, lack of self-confidence. It's kind of like being given a chihuahua for a pet vs. a grizzly bear. (a bit extreme, I know, but follow me). For a chihuahua, you feed it, take it for walks, bathe it, etc, and it's pretty happy. For a grizzly bear, you can do the exact same things and still not know if it's enough, just because you know that no matter how well you treat the bear, it's confident and independent enough to rip your head off if you do something wrong.

[meerkat stew]

Masculine energy - powerful, dominant, attentive, leader, aggressive, observant, problem solver, decider, centered, admired, protective, fearless, strong, wise, assertive, proud, knowledgeable, balanced... ect.

 

Feminine energy - carefree, feeling, off center, funny, expressive, emotional, silly, romantic, fun loving, wild, sensual, unbalanced, in love, submissive, fantasy, nurturing, free, energetic... ect.

 

If you're a girl, and you know that you have mostly masculine energy, then you will most likely attract men with moslty feminine energy. Men, if you have mosly feminine energy, then you will attract women with mostly masculine energy. Masculine energy guy + masculine energy girl = fail. Fem energry guy + fem energy girl = fail.

 

At work, both men and women utilize their masculine energy, unless you have a rare job that requires mostly fem energy. However, in your social life, you are either mostly masculine, or mostly feminine. You prefer one over the other, and need to express that side. By need, I mean this has to be expressed, or you will certainly be unhappy and unfulfilled.

 

Be honest with yourself and who you are as a person. Women who have moslty masculine energy tend to lie to themselves and act as though they have hidden feminine energy. And that if they found the right man, then that energy would come out and be expressed. Hmm, interesting, but why then is she attracting feminine energy guys? Because those guys sense the masculine energy she is putting out, and they're interested. You will attract the opposite energy of what you're putting out. For example, a bunch of girls go out to a club, they drink and start dancing crazy, having a good time, men find out, go to the club and PAY to get into the club to be around them. Their fem energy is attracting masculine energy. When I say energy, I don't mean anything magical, just what we can perceive with our 5 senses.

 

What about feminine energy guys? Never seen a straight one? How about Michael Jackson? Johnny Depp? They're out there. Watch the 'Maury' tv show. Watch the paternity episodes, where Maury yells 'YOU ARE NOT THE FATHER'. Ok, now wait for a bossy, strong, assertive, aggressive woman to come out first. Now, she is clearly a vortex of masculine energy. I want you to guess what type of guy is coming around the corner after the commercial. What type of energy will her bf/husband have?

 

Here is an example of the energy at work in the homosexual community. 2 lesbian women, 1 dresses butch, acts like a guy, and has masculine energy on display. Her gf is the exact opposite. She dresses like a woman, and has feminine energy.

 

Is there a source for this analysis? Or something you have come up with? It's not exactly the yin-yang distinction that I have seen in the past is the reason I ask the source. But seems generally valid other than I would use "traits" rather than "energy," and would come up with some other axis than masculine/feminine to differentiate the traits. Not sure that what you describe is a particular kind of energy, but rather ways of human behavior, which of course all require energy, but not sure if the nature of the behavior "is" energy.

 

My social life did not truly mature and get good until I incorporated lots of the traits you list as feminine into my approach to dating, and to life generally. Before that point, my life was mostly a copy of your list of masculine traits. Attraction and seduction for men requires more than just being a solid man these days, unfortunately, hence all the puzzled threads here from guys who are working on building the typical masculine indicia, yet are still not successful in relationships or socially. For women who are seeking to establish themselves in the criteria listed as "masculine," would imagine this is true also. Everyone needs the traits listed as feminine to be successful in relationships over the long term IMO.

[Mr White]

I'm a guy, and to be completely honest, I would have never even thought about the fact that assertive women might need to be taken care of until I saw these posts on LS. Mindblowing.

 

For me, I think it's because assertive women, because of their traits, sometimes just seem like one of the guys. Guys never take care of guys. We talk, make fun of one another, and have great relationships, but we just don't pack lunches or pamper each other with spa treatments.

 

It's also, in some part, lack of self-confidence. It's kind of like being given a chihuahua for a pet vs. a grizzly bear. (a bit extreme, I know, but follow me). For a chihuahua, you feed it, take it for walks, bathe it, etc, and it's pretty happy. For a grizzly bear, you can do the exact same things and still not know if it's enough, just because you know that no matter how well you treat the bear, it's confident and independent enough to rip your head off if you do something wrong.

 

Haha, I like the analogy! Although I wouldn't anchor it along the issue of confidence. For me it's all about comfort and aesthetics. I feel excited to cuddle & pamper my cute, feminine gf. If she were some high-powered professional I'd be thinking "she'd probably growl at me if i try to hug her" .

I've just not seen many (if any) examples of the stereotypical "career woman" (layer, executive, academic, stuff like that) who is also able to also turn that stuff off at home and just be a woman. the grizzly bears are majestic beasts, but they aren't coming anywhere close me an my bollocks .

[mem11363]

She was really smart which I liked a lot

 

She was not as skilled a conversationalist as I expected for someone that smart

 

She had an edge to her - which combined with being smart and driven was a bit tough AND

 

She lacked a sense of humor - deal killer for me

 

She was very limited in bed - did not like to give oral - was fine receiving it

 

Lack of being a giving lover, lack of a sense of humor = no fit

 

 

 

 

 

Haha, I like the analogy! Although I wouldn't anchor it along the issue of confidence. For me it's all about comfort and aesthetics. I feel excited to cuddle & pamper my cute, feminine gf. If she were some high-powered professional I'd be thinking "she'd probably growl at me if i try to hug her" .

I've just not seen many (if any) examples of the stereotypical "career woman" (layer, executive, academic, stuff like that) who is also able to also turn that stuff off at home and just be a woman. the grizzly bears are majestic beasts, but they aren't coming anywhere close me an my bollocks .

[Mr White]

 

My social life did not truly mature and get good until I incorporated lots of the traits you list as feminine into my approach to dating, and to life generally. Before that point, my life was mostly a copy of your list of masculine traits. Attraction and seduction for men requires more than just being a solid man these days, unfortunately, hence all the puzzled threads here from guys who are working on building the typical masculine indicia, yet are still not successful in relationships or socially.

 

They fail because US women, on average, are exceedingly butch and unfeminine. So if the above poster's analogy is adequate, that alone would suffice to explain some dating difficulties.

(the solution, of course, is to focus on asian chicks )

[sally4sara]

Masculine energy - powerful, dominant, attentive, leader, aggressive, observant, problem solver, decider, centered, admired, protective, fearless, strong, wise, assertive, proud, knowledgeable, balanced... ect.

 

Feminine energy - carefree, feeling, off center, funny, expressive, emotional, silly, romantic, fun loving, wild, sensual, unbalanced, in love, submissive, fantasy, nurturing, free, energetic... ect.

 

Textbook definitions are great for a rudimentary explanation and introducing new words.

In life, EVERYONE has the opportunity to be all of the words used in the above definitions. Life will see to that, no matter how feminine or masculine one would wish to project themselves. The fact that we have assigned gender to these traits says more about human's need to catalog all living beings around us than it does anything else. There are no rules in this subject any of us must adhere to; if there were, we would not be able to function in our day to day.

 

We are under almost four feet of snow right now. We had no heat for 4 days and no electricity for most of that. To enact some of my decisions (leader, problem solver, decider, wise, and knowledgeable) of what to do in this situation, I had to use my strength (powerful, fearless). So did my partner. In some situations, he knows a better plan, but other situations I have the better plan. In those situations he doesn't get pissed and tell me I'm taking his job as a man. When I follow his plan, I do not ponder my gender as why I do.

 

Its just life folks. To be a successful team (and this even includes my son as he is part of my team) you have to utilize the traits of all members to ensure the best possible outcomes rather than who has the gender the dictionary tells you would have those traits.

If you find you're constantly having to remind others of their gender assignment and how it infringes on yours, you have not found your ease in life. You are not partner material, you will not be a good team member. And you will keep finding little success in your relationships. The best relationships don't involve hammering people into the catagories you think make you look best or achieve making you look like the definitions above without you actually being like the definitions above. In other words, don't look to one gender to help you be your own gender. Drop the angst and live your life. Let others do the same.

[Calendula]

I like a woman that can make a decision without hemming & hawing & isn't afraid to voice her opinion.

 

I prefer the directness.

 

But, for the most part i've only met women that were bossy & it was their way or the highway & that's what I imagine when someone says "assertive woman"

 

Can the OP give an exmaple of her being assertive?

 

Assertiveness, to me, means standing up for what you believe in and for yourself, which is quite different from trying to force your beliefs or opinions on another individual. I spent some time thinking about what would serve as a single representative example from my experience, but I think the links below to different descriptions are more relevant to your question. I don't think that a single example would do justice to the concept, and I would describe what you term to be assertive as simply being bossy and controlling with none of the compromising and communicative nature that is inherrently required in order to be assertive.

 

An excellent discussion of what is meant by Assertiveness can be found on a BBC link here: http://www.bbc.co.uk/dna/h2g2/A2998551 which includes some excellent examples which I could identify with. I read through this whole thing and thought it did an awesome job of describing the accurate meaning of "assertiveness," starting as follows: "Assertiveness is not about trying to dominate others: it is a more a matter of resisting those who seek to dominate and manipulate you."

 

Wikipedia also does a good job of describing Assertiveness: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Assertiveness, and the following is from the beginning of the Wikipedia entry, but I would suggest reading the entire thing:

 

"As a communication style and strategy, assertiveness is distinguished from [COLOR=#002bb8]aggression[/COLOR] and passivity. How people deal with [COLOR=#002bb8]personal boundaries[/COLOR], their own and those of other people, helps to distinguish between these three concepts. Passive communicators do not defend their own personal boundaries and thus allow aggressive people to [COLOR=#002bb8]abuse[/COLOR] or [COLOR=#002bb8]manipulate[/COLOR] them. Passive communicators are also typically not likely to risk trying to influence anyone else. Aggressive people do not [COLOR=#002bb8]respect[/COLOR] the personal boundaries of others and thus are liable to harm others while trying to influence them. A person communicates assertively by overcoming fear to speak his or her mind or trying to influence others, but doing so in a way that respects the personal boundaries of others. Assertive people are also willing to defend themselves against aggressive incursions."

[carhill]

I recall a marked and memorable example of assertiveness on an EM120 when a man was asked to re-seat himself due to weight and balance issues with the aircraft. He never raised his voice, never used harsh or insulting language and never backed down and, ultimately, was escorted from the aircraft in handcuffs. True story. I did a sit rep on it for the captain to submit to company as I witnessed the entire 'event'. A suit full of assertiveness with a Rolex doesn't always mean success