meerkat stew Posted February 9, 2010 Posted February 9, 2010 I don't like my wimmen reading romantical novels. They read it, and then it's "Fabio this," and "Fabio that." "Well Mr. Man, Fabio would leave the seat down, and Fabio's bathroom smells like dewy Spring mountaintops, not like a dead possum!" "Fabio doesn't chew his nails, Fabio doesn't drink the milk straight from the jug, Fabio wouldn't put me in the dutch oven." So I went out and bought a Fabio wig, and got heavy into spray-tanning. Only it turned out, the clerk at the costume shop sold me a MULLET wig, and not a beautiful flowing Fabio mane, so she was like "Take that nasty Joe Dirt mullet off, I am not doing -that- while you wear it!" which was quite a blow to my fragile male ego. Hell, I thought it looked great worn "down there" with a jock strap to hold it. Tried to take the wig back, but they said it was used or unsanitary or some scam. Shopping tip: if you are ever trying to return a wig, don't carry it in the store in the same paper bag with the jock strap you used to hold it up. She loves the spray-tan, though, when it doesn't run or streak, then make way for all the snide "Zebra man" comments and her chasing me around with a bic lighter because she knows it's flammable before it dries. Even in a double-double wide, there's only so far you can run from fire, and the fumes can ignite and catch you no matter where you are.
OnlyJake Posted February 9, 2010 Posted February 9, 2010 (edited) I don't like my wimmen reading romantical novels. They read it, and then it's "Fabio this," and "Fabio that." "Well Mr. Man, Fabio would leave the seat down, and Fabio's bathroom smells like dewy Spring mountaintops, not like a dead possum!" "Fabio doesn't chew his nails, Fabio doesn't drink the milk straight from the jug, Fabio wouldn't put me in the dutch oven." So I went out and bought a Fabio wig, and got heavy into spray-tanning. Only it turned out, the clerk at the costume shop sold me a MULLET wig, and not a beautiful flowing Fabio mane, so she was like "Take that nasty Joe Dirt mullet off, I am not doing -that- while you wear it!" which was quite a blow to my fragile male ego. Hell, I thought it looked great worn "down there" with a jock strap to hold it. Tried to take the wig back, but they said it was used or unsanitary or some scam. Shopping tip: if you are ever trying to return a wig, don't carry it in the store in the same paper bag with the jock strap you used to hold it up. She loves the spray-tan, though, when it doesn't run or streak, then make way for all the snide "Zebra man" comments and her chasing me around with a bic lighter because she knows it's flammable before it dries. Even in a double-double wide, there's only so far you can run from fire, and the fumes can ignite and catch you no matter where you are. Not to mention those spray-tan chemicals make your spunk taste pretty nasty. *Sometimes your posts freak me out, because I seriously think, "didn't I date this guy????" Edited February 9, 2010 by OnlyJake
You'reasian Posted February 10, 2010 Posted February 10, 2010 LOL, okay, I'm talking as a 40-something woman .... the only ONLY guy I can recall being so into sex was one from college, a Mexican guy who appreciated the female form and what he could do with it You're dating the wrong guys.
meerkat stew Posted February 10, 2010 Posted February 10, 2010 Not to mention those spray-tan chemicals make your spunk taste pretty nasty. "Spunk?" is that some uppity romance novel word for baby batter? man butter? mamba juice? What does it taste like btw? Be descriptive as my gal don't go there any more since I started doing a full body spray tan to avoid tan lines. I'm vain like that, but doesn't get Mini Meerkat the attention he deserves. *Sometimes your posts freak me out, because I seriously think, "didn't I date this guy????" Well was wondering that, based on your response to my relationship flaws post, was he built like Atlas and hung like a mule? That was me then.... erm Jacquelyn? Jackie? Jacinthe? Count Jakula? Always remember you having such a pretty name...
Twenty-ten Posted February 10, 2010 Posted February 10, 2010 I have to say that I really disagree with your claim that romance novels are to women what porn is to men; that said, I occasionally read romance novels. ). I think some of you women really misunderstood what the opening post meant. they are in fact more alike than we care to understand. He is saying that the fictional escapism that romance in literature, television, film and theater offers women when it comes to casting men in a false light, is very similar to what porn does for women. It's not just Harlequin type novels that he is talking about, I have never read a single one of those, but we have all seen enough cliche portrayals of romance in art that it can't not affect the way we see men and what we expect of them. Much like what porn does for the expectations of men on women.
OnlyJake Posted February 10, 2010 Posted February 10, 2010 I think some of you women really misunderstood what the opening post meant. they are in fact more alike than we care to understand. He is saying that the fictional escapism that romance in literature, television, film and theater offers women when it comes to casting men in a false light, is very similar to what porn does for women. It's not just Harlequin type novels that he is talking about, I have never read a single one of those, but we have all seen enough cliche portrayals of romance in art that it can't not affect the way we see men and what we expect of them. Much like what porn does for the expectations of men on women. I understood very well what the OP was getting at; however, I still disagree. The point of his thread wasn't to support or dispute that particular claim, so I'm not going to get into that issue with you. Start your own thread if you want to get into that particular issue. I answered the OP, but as I disagree with his claim, wanted to clarify that point in my post.
Twenty-ten Posted February 10, 2010 Posted February 10, 2010 (edited) I understood very well what the OP was getting at; however, I still disagree. The point of his thread wasn't to support or dispute that particular claim, so I'm not going to get into that issue with you. Start your own thread if you want to get into that particular issue. I answered the OP, but as I disagree with his claim, wanted to clarify that point in my post. Easy tiger! I am interested in knowing why you disagree that romance novels are to women what porn is to men? You offered no explanation, I thought you didn't get it. And if you want to talk to about your ex-boyfriends with other posters then you should start your own thread too. :-) it has nothing to do with the opening question. My question is relevant. Edited February 10, 2010 by Twenty-ten
OnlyJake Posted February 10, 2010 Posted February 10, 2010 Easy tiger! I am interested in knowing why you disagree that romance novels are to women what porn is to men? You offered no explanation, I thought you didn't get it. LoL I'm not upset or offended or whatever...maybe just blunt? If you want to discuss that issue, I do think you should start your own thread, for the sake of not threadjacking/going off topic in this one; I actually didn't read any of the posts in this thread for the simple reason that a quick scan of the first page seemed as though many posters chose to pick on the topic you've brought up, rather than the OP's actual question, which I did find interesting.
OnlyJake Posted February 10, 2010 Posted February 10, 2010 And if you want to talk to about your ex-boyfriends with other posters then you should start your own thread too. :-) it has nothing to do with the opening question. My question is relevant. So hit the alert button and report me.
meerkat stew Posted February 10, 2010 Posted February 10, 2010 Ironically, way back in the day, talking 70s, before graphic porn was completely socially acceptable, porn novels targetted at men were popular. As more graphical porn became more widespread, these novels faded out of popularity (but I imagine they are still around). Romance novels existed at that time also of course, and were sold side by side at newsstands and in grocery stores. It's interesting that romance novels have basically stayed the same over the last 40 years, whereas porn has transformed and evolved much differently. Join us next week for more "Old Fogie Nostalgia Hour."
Twenty-ten Posted February 10, 2010 Posted February 10, 2010 LoL I'm not upset or offended or whatever...maybe just blunt? If you want to discuss that issue, I do think you should start your own thread, for the sake of not threadjacking/going off topic in this one; I actually didn't read any of the posts in this thread for the simple reason that a quick scan of the first page seemed as though many posters chose to pick on the topic you've brought up, rather than the OP's actual question, which I did find interesting. But you said this: I have to say that I really disagree with your claim that romance novels are to women what porn is to men; that said, I occasionally read romance novels. I was just curious to know why you disagree with his association of the two? Why in the world would I start a thread about that when we are already discussing that in this topic? It's not off topic or thread-jacking he asked that specific question and you said you disagree with it. I just want to see what your line of reasoning is so that I could see another perspective. Usually when someone disagrees with a concept they explain why. Usually. Sorry I asked sheesh! You must be on your "periodical"
OnlyJake Posted February 10, 2010 Posted February 10, 2010 Ironically, way back in the day, talking 70s, before graphic porn was completely socially acceptable, porn novels targetted at men were popular. As more graphical porn became more widespread, these novels faded out of popularity (but I imagine they are still around). Romance novels existed at that time also of course, and were sold side by side at newsstands and in grocery stores. It's interesting that romance novels have basically stayed the same over the last 40 years, whereas porn has transformed and evolved much differently. Join us next week for more "Old Fogie Nostalgia Hour." Oh, very interesting point. I think I remember a movie where one of the characters had a fetish for that kind of porn. These types of novels do still exist (but I believe have evolved a bit), and are now more targeted at women, but more along the lines of, they should share these explicit novels with their husbands/SOs to spice up their sex life....sharing porn that's not visual, basically.
OnlyJake Posted February 10, 2010 Posted February 10, 2010 You must be on your "periodical" Nope, I always act this way. Maybe I should add it to my list in the "what I did wrong" thread. I suppose that, recovering from a vicious cold and having several glasses of wine makes me kinda lazy about discussing and/or supporting assertions. Probably someone on the first and/or second page of this thread already summed up why I disagree with OP's assertion. Another reason I disagree with said assertion is that porn is pretty common with men (ie, generally accepted that huge majority of males [and females] view porn); same is not true of romance novels. Romance novels are the most popular form of fiction, but that is with a much, much smaller group of people (women) than porn is with men. Etc. In other words, one reason I disagree is that OP makes a GROSS generalization in the most flagrant and egregious form of that term, that just shouldn't be a generalization. Others have made arguments that disagree with OP's assertions also.
EnglishMuffin Posted February 10, 2010 Posted February 10, 2010 Easy tiger! I am interested in knowing why you disagree that romance novels are to women what porn is to men? You offered no explanation, I thought you didn't get it. And if you want to talk to about your ex-boyfriends with other posters then you should start your own thread too. :-) it has nothing to do with the opening question. My question is relevant. The OP wrote: "The essential equivalent to porn for men is the tawdry romance novel, TV show or movie for women. How have those fictional portrayals of men, love and sex affected your relationships?" He asked women about their personal relationship experience in relation to fictional representation of romance in media in general, and I don't think anecdotes about how our exs responded to such ideas of romance is irrelevant. If the OP asked about "how media or Hollywood studios reinforce the unrealistic notions of romance to the teens, for instance the recent popularity of Twilight, men and women's self-images, representations, etc," I am sure those posters will happy to oblige without bringing in their relationship history. I acknowledge that romance novel/film is a mass-produced pop culture that would have an undesired impact on persons whose lack of life experience/active analytic reading would result in failing of accepting that as unrealistic portrayal of real relationships. However also keep in mind that subgenre readers tend to have a stigma of being scowled by, and when a man consumes porn and a woman consumes romance novel/film, people tend to accept porn better as a part of a man's life style, when woman watching/reading romance can easily interpreted into "she has such an unrealistic ideas of romance," which in fact leads to a women's common reaction of "oh I don't read such stupid books." Bad books are bad books no matter what. There will always be a formula SF, Fantasy, romance, mystery, etc. Another factor to consider is the publisher/studios' fixed idea of what a representation of romance is supposed to be in terms of making a profit. And sadly a lot of bad books/movies regardless of romantic elements sell well, which does make me wonder why.
Twenty-ten Posted February 10, 2010 Posted February 10, 2010 Nope, I always act this way. Maybe I should add it to my list in the "what I did wrong" thread. I suppose that, recovering from a vicious cold and having several glasses of wine makes me kinda lazy about discussing and/or supporting assertions. Hey I am coming on a viscous cold myself, so it's all good! Mmmm wine!!! Romance novels are the most popular form of fiction, but that is with a much, much smaller group of people (women) than porn is with men. Etc. This is precisely why I explained it and thought you might not have understood the OP correctly, because he didn't just say romance novels, he said tv and film too! So if you think about it the equivalent of fictional romance in art, can be compared to porn in terms of quantity. Maybe even more than porn. Anyway I didn't mean to make you feel like I was picking on what you said I was genuinely interested in seeing what your perspective was for disagreeing.
OnlyJake Posted February 10, 2010 Posted February 10, 2010 This is precisely why I explained it and thought you might not have understood the OP correctly, because he didn't just say romance novels, he said tv and film too! So if you think about it the equivalent of fictional romance in art, can be compared to porn in terms of quantity. Maybe even more than porn. That's true; I know someone acknowledged that point earlier in the thread though. I also think that the unifying theme among romance novels and rom-coms and all that crap is the women in those genres wanting/falling for men who completely understand them. Understand them better than they understand themselves, in fact (P.S. I Love You comes immediately to mind). But doesn't everyone want this, even men? Yes, I think so, and in these genres that topic is really a two-way street. Can't say the same about porn, IMO. That said, I would much rather watch a good porno than a romantic comedy any day of the week. Romantic comedies and romance novels offer an ideal that simply doesn't exist. At least I can watch a porno and get off. Clearly, one is much more satisfying than the other.
EnglishMuffin Posted February 10, 2010 Posted February 10, 2010 (edited) Ironically, way back in the day, talking 70s, before graphic porn was completely socially acceptable, porn novels targetted at men were popular. As more graphical porn became more widespread, these novels faded out of popularity (but I imagine they are still around). Romance novels existed at that time also of course, and were sold side by side at newsstands and in grocery stores. It's interesting that romance novels have basically stayed the same over the last 40 years, whereas porn has transformed and evolved much differently. Join us next week for more "Old Fogie Nostalgia Hour." Actually the so-called bodice-ripper historical romance that was prevalent in the 70-80s became obsolete. Contemporary romance tends to be more about women's achieving life goals, meeting a man of her dreams, and being a sex goddess of some sort. The major criticism of women's empowerment in romance especially in historical settings is the accompanied historical inaccuracy, but contemporary readers do not want to see her heroine being subjected to sexism anymore. I do think in a sense both porn and romance industry were affected by the changed perception of sexuality in culture. If I understand correctly, there was not much of public acknowledge of women's ability to achieve orgasm orally before the 60s. There are scholars who think Deep Throat, despite of its notoriety, actually turned men's attention to clitorial stimulation. Nowadays even medieval romance heroes know how to pleasure women orally, often under the lame disguise of "oh he learned it in the East while being on the Crusade..." But yes it is all fantasy, ahem. Edited February 10, 2010 by EnglishMuffin
silverfish Posted February 10, 2010 Posted February 10, 2010 The essential equivalent to porn for men is the tawdry romance novel, TV show or movie for women. How have those fictional portrayals of men, love and sex affected your relationships? I read a few 'romantic' novels as a teenager, mostly for the sex parts. I think it gave me an insight into the emotional processes that led to sex...or at least an idea, having no clue at the time, as they are mostly based on a 'relationship' scenario, where the heroine gets her man in the end after various trials, and holding out til he tells her *how he feels* When I got a bit older I found these type books to be a bit silly, old fashioned and demeaning, and didn't think they were relevant to modern women. I think a lot of thats to do with the fact they focus on the love interest and very little else. The female leads often have the characteristics that men tend to look for in a female partner though, so who knows..... If any of these really affected my relationships though, they did a pretty poor job. I read Pride & Prejudice nearly 20 years ago now, and I still haven't met a guy who owns a castle who looks good in a wet shirt
Twenty-ten Posted February 10, 2010 Posted February 10, 2010 I also think that the unifying theme among romance novels and rom-coms and all that crap is the women in those genres wanting/falling for men who completely understand them. Understand them better than they understand themselves, in fact (P.S. I Love You comes immediately to mind). But doesn't everyone want this, even men? Yes, I think so, and in these genres that topic is really a two-way street. Can't say the same about porn, IMO. Now that makes sense! Thanks for indulging me and explaining, I like seeing the opposing view because sometimes we see things we missed ourselves. Hope that wasn't a buzz kill, at least you can drink I'm still at work...
Twenty-ten Posted February 10, 2010 Posted February 10, 2010 I read Pride & Prejudice nearly 20 years ago now, and I still haven't met a guy who owns a castle who looks good in a wet shirt Brilliant!
EnglishMuffin Posted February 10, 2010 Posted February 10, 2010 If any of these really affected my relationships though, they did a pretty poor job. I read Pride & Prejudice nearly 20 years ago now, and I still haven't met a guy who owns a castle who looks good in a wet shirt Have you seen Lost in Austen? Our heroine from the contemporary london gets rejected by Darcy because she is not a virgin maiden. I gave up on Darcy (and Colin Firth) a long time ago. My favourite is Persuasion anyway. But I don't think I can wait for 8 years for my Frederick!!
meerkat stew Posted February 10, 2010 Posted February 10, 2010 Actually the so-called bodice-ripper historical romance that was prevalent in the 70-80s became obsolete. Contemporary romance tends to be more about women's achieving life goals, meeting a man of her dreams, and being a sex goddess of some sort. The major criticism of women's empowerment in romance especially in historical settings is the accompanied historical inaccuracy, but contemporary readers do not want to see her heroine being subjected to sexism anymore. I do think in a sense both porn and romance industry were affected by the changed perception of sexuality in culture. If I understand correctly, there was not much of public acknowledge of women's ability to achieve orgasm orally before the 60s. There are scholars who think Deep Throat, despite of its notoriety, actually turned men's attention to clitorial stimulation. Nowadays even medieval romance heroes know how to pleasure women orally, often under the lame disguise of "oh he learned it in the East while being on the Crusade..." But yes it is all fantasy, ahem. Interesting points, am familiar with the bodice ripper, but that wasn't what I was descrbing. These were sexually graphic novels, often with a crime fiction theme, and not talking about the old crime magazines, but there are similarities. Interestingly enough, I myself learned cunnilingus in the Middle East during my travels... as a young boy. Most of the other boys wanted to learn how to be assassins, study with the "Man in the Mountain," and smoke hash all the live long day. Myself and the other more pruriently inclined young men chose to study with his cousin, the lesser known "Man in the Boat," who taught us the 18 vulval cakras, the 42 labial forms, and especially the 17 major and minor clitoral dispositions. We practiced day and night, first by sticking our tongues into hot sand, then pebbles and later gravel. We graduated to living pudenda, first chickens and other fowl, then livestock, and finally hand me downs stoner chicks from the hash-heads up on the mountain. We labored under threat of the rod, until finally we had memorized the Cooter Sutra completely. Alas, there is not as much money in it as in assassinations, Cooch masters lead austere ascetic existences, sometimes performing publically, but mostly just meditating and practicing the forms. Truly a lost art.
silverfish Posted February 10, 2010 Posted February 10, 2010 Have you seen Lost in Austen? Our heroine from the contemporary london gets rejected by Darcy because she is not a virgin maiden. I gave up on Darcy (and Colin Firth) a long time ago. My favourite is Persuasion anyway. But I don't think I can wait for 8 years for my Frederick!! Colin Firth is a bit of a lame romantic hero. I think he was chosen from a poll by gay programme controlllers from a list at the BBC that consisted of him, Jeremy Irons, Ralph Fiennes, Rufus Sewell and Daniel Day Lewis. Obviously everyone else was too busy in Hollywood doing sex scenes with Kate Winslet or something....I always preferred Mr Bennet myself
silverfish Posted February 10, 2010 Posted February 10, 2010 Interesting points, am familiar with the bodice ripper, but that wasn't what I was descrbing. These were sexually graphic novels, often with a crime fiction theme, and not talking about the old crime magazines, but there are similarities. Interestingly enough, I myself learned cunnilingus in the Middle East during my travels... as a young boy. Most of the other boys wanted to learn how to be assassins, study with the "Man in the Mountain," and smoke hash all the live long day. Myself and the other more pruriently inclined young men chose to study with his cousin, the lesser known "Man in the Boat," who taught us the 18 vulval cakras, the 42 labial forms, and especially the 17 major and minor clitoral dispositions. We practiced day and night, first by sticking our tongues into hot sand, then pebbles and later gravel. We graduated to living pudenda, first chickens and other fowl, then livestock, and finally hand me downs stoner chicks from the hash-heads up on the mountain. We labored under threat of the rod, until finally we had memorized the Cooter Sutra completely. Alas, there is not as much money in it as in assassinations, Cooch masters lead austere ascetic existences, sometimes performing publically, but mostly just meditating and practicing the forms. Truly a lost art. Hey! I thought it went sand, gravel, MELON, chicken...
EnglishMuffin Posted February 10, 2010 Posted February 10, 2010 Interesting points, am familiar with the bodice ripper, but that wasn't what I was descrbing. These were sexually graphic novels, often with a crime fiction theme, and not talking about the old crime magazines, but there are similarities. Hmm then isn't it more of erotica than romance? Or would you call it a graphic subgenre of noir fiction? Alas, there is not as much money in it as in assassinations, Cooch masters lead austere ascetic existences, sometimes performing publically, but mostly just meditating and practicing the forms. Truly a lost art. Ahahaha- You are terrible! There are already a plentiful stereotypes of the highly sexualised East! Plus, just like many old western films/novels, Lawrence of Arabia-themed romances in the old times were horrid with its racist descriptions. I'm so glad we are past that.
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