Should I bother?

[Cuernos]

This is my first post here, although I have read quite a bit the last few days. Not enough to understand what all the abbreviations mean yet, but enough to know this is a pretty helpful community.

 

I'm afraid my story will be a bit long and rambling because there are lots of details necessary to give proper context to everything. These details will probably also muddy the water for a lot of folks, but this is my situation and I want advice based upon the whole picture.

 

The short version is, my wife has lied to me and cheated me on more occasions than I can recall right now over the course of our 9 year relationship, and I'm wondering why I should give her another chance.

 

The long version... We've been, for lack of a better term, "swingers" for all but the first year of our relationship. This is something that has worked for us well as long as we both adhere to the "rules of engagement". This is something we did together as a couple, and it was a fun way to occasionally spice up our love life. By occasionally, I mean anywhere from two to eight times a year, not every weekend. Over the last year or so we have tried an "open relationship", where we both date independently but with the understanding that our marriage is the priority. This has been much less successful and more stressful and we have jointly decided to end that. Ok, so that's the "lifestyle context".

 

Over the course of our relationship my wife has cheated on me on at least a half-dozen different occasions, maybe even twice that number. Sucks I don't ever remember, right? During that same amount of time, I had two trust-breaking issues, once involving some Bill Clinton type "not sexual relations" with a woman I worked with (around 5 years ago), and once lying about not adhering to the rules of engagement with regards to a woman I was seeing when we were "open". I didn't use protection and then lied about. All that's to say that I'm not a complete angel in this situation either. My wife also did those very things I just mentioned. She also cheated on other occasions because she was angry at me, because she was bored, because she had opportunity, and because she just felt like it. She has lied to me about this type of situation more times than I can count. I have enabled her behavior by forgiving her each time. I recognize that I have responsibility in this situation.

 

Fast forward to a month ago. On the very brink of a mutually agreed split because of the damaging effects of our "open relationship", we decide to leave behind that lifestyle and focus exclusively on each other. We had discussed that in the past, but my take on it had always been, "if we go back to a normal relationship, when you get bored, you'll just cheat anyway. At least in an open relationship I'm getting mine too."

 

Anyway, we are on this trip together a month ago, celebrating our anniversary and we're on the cusp of splitting up. We decide to stay together and make it work. I commit to the decision with my heart and soul, just the way it's recommended by so many who post here, and I give it my 110%. We're back less than two weeks when she makes two more "mistakes" (contacted old BFs, made out w one, slept w other). I tell her I'm over, done with, just simply do not have the will or ability to put myself in that position to be hurt again, and that I want to split up. She becomes hysterical and begins to try to hurt herself. I relent, tell her fine, if she'll agree to go to individual counseling and marriage counseling with me, then we'll take it day by day.

 

That was a week ago now. We have an appointment with a counselor for monday, but meanwhile all I can think about are the logistics of splitting up. I just can't imagine anything a counselor can tell us to try that we haven't tried already. Seeing here in black and white, it's obvious that our relationship is completely dysfunctional and I won't heal or grow while remaining in it. But at the same time I have a sense of responsibility... To my marriage vows (better or worse?) and to her physical safety. And yeah, I feel angry and trapped and resentful as hell that she manipulated the situation by threatening to harm herself.

 

She swears she's sorry and can change, but I just don't believe her anymore. I've heard it too many times. Should I even bother to go to the marriage counseling? Is there any chance she will change, and that I could trust her again?

[lostsunsets]

I think you're right. I don't think she can stop herself. It is to ingrained in her. She is not completely to blame, but the result is the same. She can't stay true.

[Disintegration]

Well seeing as how your relationship began and continued, it seems like it was easy to be able to cheat and get away with it since you were basically sleeping with different people anyways in your "open marriage". That is why I personally do not think those types of relationships can work or last. Jealousy can come into play or one spouse is not agreeing to the rules or abiding by them. Marriage counseling is worth a shot, and at least you know and can say that you've tried every option to repair the damage that has been caused.

[Gabriele]

Marriage counseling is worth a shot, and at least you know and can say that you've tried every option to repair the damage that has been caused.

 

But that doesn't mean you have to pretend, and you could always have time apart and still do this. The fact that you feel trapped by her threats of self harm and the logistics your relationship is based on, I think that it would be a LONG HAUL, and by no means easy.. So it would be a big committed investment from both of you to get to a place of a respectable marriage. Maybe hearing from a professional that you should just part ways may make it easy for you if that is their take on it.

 

But from your fairly brief post.......I don't think (TBH) that there is much hope.

 

Sorry you are in turmoil,

Gabriele

[jnj express]

The lifestyle the 2 of you have lived for your whole married existence is to blame here. I don't think you really have a beef coming----you both agreed it is OK to cheat on each other, you called it swinging, but it is what it is, and it is ingrained in her psyche, that it is OK to have sex with any and all. You unfortunately have to live with it, or move on.

 

This is a product of your lifestyle.

[Cuernos]

Well, I did say it would muddy the waters.

 

I never said it was ok to have sex "with any and all". If you read my post, you'll see that we only "played" a few times a year. We were very selective, and it was a spice to our main dish.

 

"swinging" involved doing sexual things with other people TOGETHER. There was full communication, honesty, and openness. Nothing was hidden or illicit. Everything we did together in that lifestyle was with each others permission.

 

That's in contrast to when we tried an "open relationship", which involved allowing each other to do stuff alone with other people. Again, however, there was (at least an expectation of) honesty, trust and openness about it.

 

The only cheating that took place was when there was lies or betrayal. I don't expect everyone to understand or condone the lifestyle that we chose. But I would hope that people would understand that there's a difference between doing sexual acts with the other's consent, and without it.

 

Look at it this way, if my wife used a sex toy with my permission, is that cheating? If she used a sex doll with my permission, is that cheating? If she played with another guy while I played with his wife in the same room, we didn't consider that cheating. They were our human sex toys, and we were theirs. It was just having fun that we both agreed to. If, however, she made out with another guy without my consent, without my presence, then lied to me about it, then that IS cheating.

 

Many people feel that swinging devalues the act of sex. Fine, I'll accept that view from people not directly involved in the lifestyle. But even if you feel that way, you must understand how honesty and trust must be proportionately increased in value in order to balance the equation.

 

Let's simplify this. Take all of the moral judgment of swinging out of the equation and look at it as a matter of lying and truthtelling.

 

So, looking at it as a matter of having a spouse with a history of lying about important issues... She states she's dedicated to changing for the sake of the relationship, but she has been historically unable or unwilling to do so. Do I keep making the effort? Do I give up? How and when do you make that decision?

Edited February 4, 2010 by Cuernos

[FryFish]

A tone has been set. You forgave her for "lying" too many times and that will color the rest of your relationship with her. Time to break. If you believe she is serious about hurting herself then let the person who cares most about her besides yourself know what is going on... but you have to break.

[Samantha0905]

I knew a couple once who were swingers years ago. It's not a lifestyle I would choose, but it was their business and they are nice people. I liked them both. She eventually called me crying and said her husband had fallen "in love" with the wife of one of the couples with which they swung and had run off with her to Hawaii. They had two children together. Now, I was ill equipped to counsel her other than the usual "I'm so sorry," etc. but I was thinking -- judgmental or not -- that I can't imagine that doesn't eventually happen when one gets used to so much variety while married. I mean I would think eventually new seems much more exciting and the temptations are so readily available.

 

Anyway, I suppose I'm diverting from what you asked. If you love her, yes I think you should at least go to the marriage counseling. Given the past of your relationship it may take a bit of counseling to learn and adapt to a relationship that entails just the two of you sexually. Even if the two of you split, it may very well be difficult for each of you to establish long term monogamous relationships -- so why not give it a go with each other? You two at least understand the lifestyle you both have been living. No secrets there. If it's not worth the fight for you, by all means don't. I'd get her to a counselor first though. It's the least you could do in this situation (she is your wife currently) and she sounds unstable.

[jnj express]

This is all on you----You have to decide what you want to do----Get into counseling----set some boundaries, with deal breaker consequences, that you will follow thru on, and go from there.

 

Either she wants to R. or she doesn't, but if the 2 of you do R., and keep it going---You need to be strictly with each other, and take away any temptation to be with others.

[BlueeyedJonesy]

"But at the same time I have a sense of responsibility... To my marriage vows (better or worse?)"

 

What about forsaking all others? I'm sorry but it seems like you've poisoned your marriage by doing what you guys did. Even if it was only on occasion. I'm sorry that shes not meeting you in the middle..but if I were you I would walk away before you endure even more hurt. I'm not against open marriage if it can actually work..I'm sure its fun. BUT there is always one partner who takes it too far...good luck

[Jeff1962]

To the OP. Let me get this straight, it's ok to screw around as long as the rules are followed, am I right? I don't understand swingers nor do I care to.

 

I see plenty of women that I find attractive. I'm sure my wife sees plenty of men whom she finds attractive. We don't invite then for a go.

 

You have willingly allowed other sexual partners into your relationship. Now the rules are not to your standards? Deal with it.

Edited February 5, 2010 by Jeff1962
spelling

[ladydesigner]

Yes I would have to agree with the above posters. I really believe the "swinging lifestyle" opens the floodgates for either a full blown A or a result in the demise of a marriage. I will never understand this concept of an open marriage or swinging lifestyle and not expect something like what the OP mentioned have happen.

[KikiW]

I would like to offer my two cents here. It seems that many people are jumping on the swinging lifestyle as the cause of this, or are equating swinging with cheating from the get-go.

 

I am not active in the lifestyle, but I know a couple who are currently and one who used to be. Whether you agree with the swinging lifestyle or not, there is a big line between swinging and cheating. Those in the lifestyle will typically have very lengthy discussions before anything is even tried, and after to discuss any issues that may come up.

 

The problems stem from when one or both toss the agreed-on rules out the window, or when one or both refuses to acknowledge or address the other's concerns. Many times it's lack of communication that causes the relationship to fail, and when a successful swinging lifestyle hinges on perhaps even MORE communication than the average relationship, it's pretty much done.

 

OP: You gave it a try and it worked for a while. When it stopped working, you BOTH should have been on board with closing ranks and focusing only on your own relationship. It sounds to me like your wife is not prepared to do that. You could try counseling if you want to ease your mind that you tried everything you could, but honestly it doesn't sound like she's ready to recommit only to you. I'm so sorry.

[Cuernos]

Well, I knew I was opening myself and my relationship up for criticism when I came out with the swinging stuff. Kiki nailed it, and I appreciate the measured and thoughtful advice from those who were able to look at my situation with an open mind.

[fooled once]

I guess I am one that finds it sad that for the majority of your relationship with each other, you two were never enough for each other. You two had to invite others into your marriage/your bed in order to sustain your relationship.

 

I do believe that the lifestyle you two chose to have was the downfall of what you wanted to have -- a trusting, honest marriage. I can't wrap my mind around a swinger and then open marriage and then thinking you two would be content with just each other. It doesn't seem as if you two are enough for each other.

 

And like someone else stated, you have forgiven her too many times for your threats to mean anything anymore. Even you recognize this.

 

IF she chooses to harm herself, that is on her. If she threatens it again, call a suicide hotline and turn her over to them. Maybe inpatient treatment is needed for her. But you can't be her watch dog for the rest of her life and you shouldn't be held hostage to a marriage you aren't happy in anymore.

 

Good luck!

[bentnotbroken]

Sounds like it's harvest season. Sad:(