Lost

[Angel1111]

I can't but notice that from the moment Ann09 first posted about wanting out of her M, the heat she received from the majority of the posters

 

If the same posters are saying one thing to Ann09 than they are to WY, then I'd say there's a double-standard. I doubt that's what's happening. We're not all one unit here - we're individuals with individual opinions; and those opinions are going to be extremely varied. I doubt that everyone who has read WY's thread has even read Ann's. As WY said, you're going to see what you want to see.

[You Go Girl]

There are a few very bitter people in here that might have attacked Ann09, I didn't read the post. But we all know to take those critics with the knowledge that they need to act out negatively because they're hurting.

But let's just throw all gender-based ideas out the window entirely. I find them not true when I finally get to the truth--even sexuality. Can't say that we are wired differently. Can only say that we are definitely culturally-influenced differently.

For example--women--nurturing and monogamous.

Well I sure don't see that in a lot of posts from men whose wives are cheating.

and men--wired to plant their seed as many places as possible.

Don't always see that either--and what a relief as a woman--to see those men that seem wired to keep their eyes on the prize.

 

I believe every person unique, every marriage and situation unique. And for every person we support or don't--truth still is only half the story, and half of the unique and very complex personalities of the marriage that is disolving.

How many of us interview our partner's ex's before becoming involved? What if we could hear their story?

We don't want to know!

Very real possibility is--if we could hear all the grim details from the other party of all threads in here, we might support everyone in here a lot less.

Can't help it. I'm a realist.

All we can do is try to uplift people who are depressed and feel defeated, for whatever reason, without ever knowing where what percentage of blame might lie. It really doesn't matter. They came here seeking help.

[wasted-years]

I have no idea how long it's considered "proper" to keep writing in a thread you started yourself, but I'll just write and if nothing else it will help make me feel better. 3 weeks now. I still get pretty depressed at certain moments, but for the most part it's definitely not as often. Now I'm just starting to feel sort of numb. I have no idea if that's a good thing or a bad thing. I've definitely started a trend of pushing people away though, even my daughter. I don't even know why, I guess I feel bad and guilty and I just want to suffer by myself. Does anybody else ever get tired of the "look" you get when you tell someone at work or a very casual friend that you're going through a divorce. I know people mean well and I appreciate their well wishes, but when I'm telling this to casual acquaintances it's mostly so they stop asking how the wife and family are, not to draw their sympathies. I would like some advice on something. Before I left, our best friends lived next door and we did a lot of things together. However, it was always as couples, I didn't really hang out with just him and my wife didn't really hang out with just her. I'm sure my wife has told them what's happened by now and I'm also sure she didn't say a whole lot of nice things about me. I don't know what to do now. Do I send them a card or something? How much do I try to explain? Or should I just let it go?

[Angel1111]

Hey, WY. You can keep threads going for as long as you like. Some of them are 30 - 100 pgs. I think I can totally relate to wanting to be alone. You have a lot to process - emotionally and mentally. Just give yourself time. As far as your friends are concerned, you might want to call the guy and just let him know what you're doing and that if he ever wants to get together, you'd like to see him. Let him know that you valued the friendship with him and his wife and that you'll be thinking of them. Who knows? He might become an even better friend because you can have a different level of honesty with him. If he doesn't take the initiative to see you, then at least you let them know how you feel.

 

It would be better to not let yourself worry about what other people think or say. Just let them say whatever they want and then get out of the conversation if you don't like where it's going. You're going to get mixed responses. Once, when I was going through a divorce, someone at work asked me something about my husband and my friend who was standing next to me said, "They're getting a divorce." The guy smiled and said, "Well, congratulations!" That was the most original response I ever got and I never forgot it. Try to take things with a grain of salt. You know why you did what you did. That's good enough. Everyone else will learn to deal with it.

[wasted-years]

There's really no happy ending in any of this, is there? At least before I was the only one miserable, now everyone is miserable. I had to do what I did, but the guilt is so overwhelming sometimes. I asked both kids where they wanted to go, and my daughter, who just turned 18, wanted to stay with her mother and my son, who is 16, wanted to go with me. They're both old enough to make up their minds about such things, and I certainly saw no point in trying to convince my daughter to go with me also if she wasn't comfortable doing that. I certainly have my faults, but I honestly put my kids first and if they both decided to stay with their mother, then so be it. I wouldn't be bitter or anything, I'd want them to be happy. Well, my soon to be ex-wife doesn't share that philosophy. She's fighting to get custody of my 16 year old son, who told her directly he didn't want to live with her. Now she is claiming I'm an unfit parent because it's the only way she'll get custody of my son. 50 pages of accusations. 50 pages! My lawyer wants me to have him write a letter saying why he wants to stay with me and why he doesn't want to stay with her. So now I either voluntarily give up my son, which won't happen, or I fight back with everything I can. She dug up and listed every piece of dirt she could find. Now of course I'll have to do the same to her. I'd love to take the high road here, but what options do I have? If I don't fight my son has to go and he would be miserable. So now we'll drag each other through the dirt, and of course both kids will have to be involved so they can see Mom and Dad wallowing in the dirt and fighting for custody. This sucks. I didn't want it to come to this. This is all about her getting back at me for leaving, even though she knew it was coming sooner or later. I don't want my son to hate her, I really don't, but he is getting pretty upset by this and doesn't understand why she's doing this, and he's starting to really resent her. I've tried to keep him out of everything as much as possible, but she's been calling and texting him constantly, mostly trying to dig up any dirt on me she can get. I don't want my son to go, we've grown so close through all this. And so this divorce will just drag on and on and on, our bank accounts will get drained paying lawyers to fight for us, and the bitter feelings will just intensify. I've tried appealing to my wife directly and that didn't go very well at all. I understand she's angry, but take it out on me then. Trash me to friends, make up lies on Facebook, do whatever but keep the kids out of it. Anyone have any advice on bitter custody battles? Does the misery ever end?

[Gunny376]

As if you could ~ you can tote the note on Ten more years of this of the last twenty-two years?

 

Its like the old boy that climbed up a a tree and thought he was dealing with a raccoon, to only find out he was dealing with lynx ~ a supped-up wildcat.

 

He told his buddies to shoot!

 

They told him, "We can't shoot! We might hit you!'

 

He told them! "Shoot anyway! One of us have GOT to have us some RELIEF!

Edited March 6, 2010 by Gunny376

[Angel1111]

As I often say, 'You don't know someone until you marry them, but you don't really know them until you divorce them.'

 

Divorce shows people's true colors in ways that nothing else can.

 

There is a happy ending - you got out of there. And once all this stuff dies away, you won't have to deal with her anymore. As some people say, 'divorce is expensive because it's worth it'. Everything your ex-wife is doing now is just showing you what she's made of. If anything, it should re-affirm why you made the decision to leave. It's the exact reason why you left - that things have to be her way, she's controlling, and she's self-centerd. No wonder you couldn't take another minute of it. She's just pissed off that she has lost control of you and of everything else.

 

Her dragging the kids into this tells me that she is selfish and immature, just to name a few things. You and your son can go through this without letting it effect you so much that it consumes you. Just do what your attorney suggested, let your son know that you're sorry he's having to do it, but once he does it, let it be done. And it doesn't have to be about trashing his mother; it can just be about why he wants to be with his dad. He's a young man, he needs to be with his dad. If my son had wanted to go live with his dad at any point, I would've let him. No questions asked.

 

Try not to drag this out or let it effect your day-to-day life too much. Honestly, I don't think the courts care all that much about the dirt. You can list your ex's dirt, but I would be matter-of-fact about it. The courts really frown on the attack-and-anger method that your ex is using. Let her get pissed, let her get angry - whatever. It's her problem and it'll come across in court and truly work against her. She'll may even end up paying child support and that's what she's really pissed about. And, btw, don't be a good-two-shoes and tell her or the courts that you don't want child support. If they tell her to pay, then let her pay.

 

As far as I'm concerned - and probably as far as the court is concerned - your kids are old enough to make up their minds about who they want to live with. Past history really isn't relevant. Basically, your son has 2 yrs to go before he's out of school. Seriously, you could drag this out in court that long and then it becomes moot point. But I don't recommend doing that. My ex did it, and part of the reason for that was my fault because I felt guilty (sound familiar?) and because I continued to believe that I could reason with him. I hope you don't make that same mistake. Judging by the way your ex is acting, she isn't reasonable, so don't waste too much time trying to come to a compromise with her. She doesn't want compromise. It's her way or the highway. You can't reason with people like this.

 

Look, there's a reason why you left her. Do yourself a favor and stop beating yourself up about it. I know this is hard. I know you were connected to her, through good and bad, but it was killing you. This was very toxic relationship for you and your children will understand that someday. Please don't lose sight of that. You alone didn't cause your marriage to fail. She knows that. Everybody knows that. She needs to grow up and get over it. I know it's a hard process but, in the end, it will be worth it.

[Angel1111]

He told them! "Shoot anyway! One of us have GOT to have us some RELIEF!

 

Hysterical!

[wasted-years]

Wow, thanks Angel, that really does make me feel better. Yeah, the guilt didn't help before. When I left I took my dresser and a loveseat and a small TV, and took just enough money from the joint checking account to pay the first months rent and basic supplies. I guess I thought that would show that I wasn't trying to take advantage of anyone. What a sucker I was. I still have the same loveseat and TV, the TV is sitting atop a plastic bin from Walmart and I'm sleeping on an air mattress. What a sucker I was. Speaking of which, do I have the right to go back to our house and get the stuff that's mine? This whole thing is giving me some perspective now, I don't care nearly as much about possessions or money issues, I just want to come out of this and not have my daughter hate me or my son hate her. My lawyer doesn't understand why she's even trying for custody when my son has told her directly that he doesn't want to live with her. Funny, her motion was about having custody of him and asking for child support. Guess I know where her priorities are. My son told her that he would never forgive her if she tried to sue for custody, and she did it anyway. It's just all such an ugly business. I talked to my lawyer and another lawyer and they both said this case is about as "cut and dry" of a divorce as you will ever find, there's nothing to really even argue about. Angel, if you don't mind me asking, what happened with your divorce and how long has it been? Thanks for caring enough to keep responding to my posts.

[2sunny]

whatever you want - you should be asking for. most states say half is yours.

 

if you don't ask - you don't have a chance to get it... so start asking - or demanding what you want.

[Mrs. Ambivalent]

Hi there

 

I just started reading this thread. I know the conversation now is about the custody issue, and I don't have too much experience or advice there, but I did want to comment about the relationship with your daughter and step daughter.

 

My parents divorced after 37 years of marriage. My sister and I were in our early 30's. Long out of the house, had our own families. My father apparently was very unhappy and my mother (and everyone else for that matter) had no idea and was shocked and devistated.

 

My mother came to live with me and she was a total mess. I had to nurse her back into being a normal human being. I cried myself to sleep for 2 - 3 months because after 37 years of marriage, after being with this man (my father) since they went on a blind date when she was 14, this is how it all ended. With her in a fetal position on my guest bed. It was a nightmare.

 

Needless to say at that time I wasn't talking to my father. He would e-mail occassionally and I might respond 1/2 the time. But my focus was on my mother.

 

My father went to live with my sister after the house sold until he purchased a small place for himself and his new girlfriend. They had a pretty good relationship at that time (my dad and sister).

 

So as time goes by and my mom gets better I start talking to my father a little more, but still not ready to see him. Finally one father's day I invited him and his now wife over for dinner. I realized that day that I would be missing a ton if I didn't have him in my life. My dad is a fun guy to be around. Knows everything about everything (not in a know it all kind of way but just in a 'I'm 60 and done so much in my life' kind of way), he picked up my son's guitar and played a tune and we all ate and had a good time.

 

At first we would only see each other a few times a year because I always felt like I was betraying my mother by doing it. But I had small kids that loved their grampa and I needed him in my life.

 

Now as far as my sister goes. He moved out of her house and promised her he would take her and her family out to dinner as a big thank you for all of her help (she packed up the martial home when it sold and moved him into her place for a few months). But he never did. And that ate at my sister. So he would contact her just to say hi and she would ignore him because she was angry.

 

So flash forward many years (they've been divorced now about 8 or 9 years) and my dad and I have a good relationship but my dad and my sister don't talk at all.

 

I think my sister is waiting for my dad to contact her and take her out for that dinner he promised (I'm being dramatic, I'm not sure what in the world she's waiting for) and my dad is waiting for her to contact him because he won't make the first move. He feels like she's an adult and she could call him also. He said to me last week "I didn't raise her to be this way, she's an adult and can make her own decisions and I guess that's her decision".

 

Both of them are missing out on a ton by not having each other in their lives.

 

So this is my point. You're the dad. I feel like it's your job and will always be your job to make the first move. To make that call, that text, that e-mail. Just to say 'I'm thinking about you', to invite her out to dinner, to see what grades she earned on her report card, etc.

 

Even when she's in her 30's and she's an adult, you need to keep the lines of communication open.

 

I think this is true also of your step daughter. She's upset now (like I was at first), but the longer you go w/o contacting her the harder it will become. And then she'll look back and think 'gee, it's been a year and he hasn't even tried to contact me, he must not want to see me'.

 

So even if she resists it, contact her. Because then she'll remember that you were never out of her life. You never left her, you left her mom. Things like that. She's probably more protective of her mom right now.

 

As far as the custody thing goes. I don't have too much experience (I have picked the date to leave my H, as you mentioned earlier, and that date is this summer so I'm holding tight), but I say don't dig up dirt on her and display it for all to see. Especially if it's not good dirt (like drug use or something like that). I think your biggest wild card is that your son wants to live with you. At his age he might be able to choose. So I would go with that instead of going with playing her game.

 

But again I have no experience.

 

Good luck!

[sistergldnhair66]

I also agree with the poster who said to keep contacting your daughter. Don't give up. I am also going through a divorce after a 23 year marriage. It was my decision to do this, my husband subsequently moved out. It's been a few months now, since he left. We have three children. My son is 24, another son 21, and daughter is 18. He basically had no relationship with the boys, but he and my daughter had a good relationship. I just noticed the other day my daughter brought up how she never sees him. She was down at my office which is a few minutes from his house. She mentioned maybe calling him, and seeing if she could stop by and see his place, or maybe go out to dinner, but after all these months of her calling him to "chat" about something, he's never reached out to her, persued her, so I think she is left with the same question..does he even care about me?

 

I see now, that she will take the hardest hit from this thing. My boys are fine with the fact that we are splitting. I'm going to say even glad that I took a step to remove myself from a miserable situation.

 

Hang in there. I also posted a thread about even though I'm the one who wanted the divorce, I find myself going through the weird emotions, unhappiness, lonliness. I think I'm just sad with how things ended up after all these years. I thought I had a life long partner, but didn't. I also wanted to stay until the kids were grown, and they basically are. Good Luck!

[Angel1111]

Hey, I'm glad it made you feel better. I know how this stuff can get a person down. I wish I had understood how powerful my guilt was and how it dictated my actions, with the worst results.

 

My divorce was about 16 yrs ago - my son was 3. My ex has huge issues about money so he fought like crazy to not have to pay child support. My lawyer even got sick of dealing with him so she suggested that I agree to him paying half of the expenses in child care and then when it went to court, she said we could change it. Well, it didn't work that way - the court went with what I had agreed to, partly because we had set a precident.

 

It took 2 yrs for the divorce to go to court, because I kept thinking I could reason with my ex and be 'nice', and then it took another 4 yrs to appeal the case. The only reason I even bothered to appeal was because my son was so young and because I had an appeals attorney who was so pissed off about my case when he read it, that he agreed that I pay a small amount of money - around $2,000 - when all other attorneys wanted to charge me about $18,000 to appeal. Then my attorney made a deal with me - that I only pay another $2,000 if he actually won the appeal. Thank God for this man. Every attorney I spoke to about appealing my case said that I must be mistaken; that the court didn't rule the way it did. They all said that they had never heard of such a thing happening. Yes, it was my own personal nightmare.

 

After my appeals attorney fought for me for 4 yrs, with a few disappointments in between, we won and my ex ended up paying child support, plus my attorney fees. I have never seen my ex as angry as he was that day. He walked into that courtroom acting really cocky, and walked out in shock. He later told our son that paying child support would ruin him, that I had ruined his life. My son was angry and confronted me about it. It was only then that I talked to him about it. My ex should've never involved our son in this discussion.

 

My ex spent about $30,000 fighting with me in court. It was a major dumb decision. I think he's probably still paying that bill. But it was his choice to do that, and it just shows how much 'controlling people' are motivated to control. As much as my ex clings to money, he was willing to spend a huge sum just to lash out at me. Do not underestimate these people.

 

I sent flowers to my attorney the day after the appeal was won. He told me once that our case was in the top 10 most reviewed cases in the legal journals for about 2 yrs. The judge's decision to give me custody without child support, and without the right to chose my son's school (yes, you read that correctly) was unprecidented. I have no idea why the judge made this decision, but I do think she regretted it as the years went by because the case got so much attention - negative attention for her. I keep hoping that it ruined her in some small way.

 

What I learned from that was that when dealing with people who only want their way, there is no reasoning with them. What I should've done was just go to court right away, without all the attempts to negotiate. I had left him with the house and most of the furnishings. All other finances were split in half. Still, that wasn't enough for him. Nothing would've been enough for him unless I had just relinquished it all to him and walked away.

 

I don't know if there's anything you can do at this point about the furniture because you left it. What I think needs to happen now is that it has to be addressed in the divorce decree. If she insists on keeping all the furniture, then make sure that you're compensated for it financially so that you can get new furniture. Like in the case with my ex keeping the house, he had to pay me half of the equity in the house. So, even if you leave her with things, you should be compensated for them. You should've taken half the money that was in your checking and savings accounts, too. If you can still do that, I would, and then open a new checking account in your name - if you haven't already done that. If there is furniture or anything in the house that you value, request those things.

 

If I were you, I wouldn't concern myself too much over what your son may or may not end up thinking about his mother. What I did all through the years with my son is that I never trashed his father in front of him. I let his dad's behavior speak for itself. Even today, with my son being nearly 20 yrs old, he has constant conflicts with his dad because his dad tries to control him. That isn't anything I can fix. His dad created that relationship and, the way I see it, their relationship is between them. The only thing I made sure that I didn't do was deliberately create that rift between them by talking negatively about his dad in front of him. Even though my ex is remarried, my son said that his dad stills talks about our divorce. He told him once, 'Get over it, dad. It was 15 yrs ago.' My son never wanted us to get back together, which says a lot right there.

 

I agree that your case seems pretty cut-and-dried but, believe me, your ex can complicate things, and drag them out, if you let her. I fired my first attorney and then got another. They were both very casual about my case because they felt it was cut-and-dried. They were certain that I'd get custody of my son so they figured everything else would fall into place. Well, it didn't work that way. As my appeal attorney said, "You're basically your ex-husband's backyard nanny." All because my other attorneys were asleep at the wheel. This ended up costing me yrs of aggrevation. I doubt that you'll have the same problem but be careful that things don't go downhill just because everything should be cut-and-dried. Once the divorce is final and all the dust has cleared, you can end up feeling screwed if things aren't split up pretty much equally.

 

I say, if there are things you want to negotiate on, do that. But if you can't come to an agreement pretty quickly, then drop it. The bad thing was, my ex would agree to something and then change his mind a week later. Unfortunately, your ex's main goal is going to be to engage you in a battle, and to lash out at you. Controlling people absolutely hate losing control. And when you left, she lost control over you. The less you let her act out, the less you let her suck you into the battle, the better off you'll be. Just remember that your ex is going to be counting on your niceness because she knows you're going to feel guilty and want to be fair. Surprise her by remaining firm. For everything the two of you can't agree on, the court will do it for you.

Edited March 7, 2010 by Angel1111

[wasted-years]

Thank you all for your advice. My relationship with my daughter is strained at best. We are still talking, but barely. She absolutely attacked me last week. Just lit into me with both barrels. I know she's angry, I know she's upset, and I know she blames me. Unfortunately, it's really easy to forget that and the advice I get when I was suddenly faced with this unexpected assault. Luckily I didn't say anything too horrible back, but I did say that maybe it would be better if we waited until after the divorce is final to talk. She has clearly taken her mothers side, which confounds me to this day because I always had to be the peace-maker between her and her mother. Reading the part about Mrs Ambivalent's mother in the fetal position kind of hit me, because I realize that more than likely that is what's happening with my daughter. I'm sure she sees her mother who is really hurting and feels she needs to take care of her. I recanted on what I said to my daughter and I apologized and said that I was really upset when I said it. Unfortunately, I'm one of those people who forgets nice things that people say but always remember negative things that people say. I will take what she said about me to my grave and I will never forget it. That doesn't mean I don't forgive her, it just hurts. It was her 18th birthday on Feb 28 and it was really hard to think where we are compared to how close we used to be. I gave her her present the day after her birthday, and my son was quite upset. He doesn't understand how I can give her a present after everything that's happened. I tried to explain to him that I will love her no matter what, just like I will love him no matter what. I really, really hope that one day she will forgive me and we can be close again. I don't what my son hating his mother, but it's really hard right now to feel bad for her. I have to go to my lawyers tomorrow and finish reading all the crap she is alleging as to why I'm an unfit parent. Won't that be fun. The nice guy is gone now, at least as far as she's concerned. The only consolation I have is that I know my kids will see her for what she is once this is through. I'm thoroughly convinced my daughter is only staying because she feels sorry for her. Angel makes an outstanding observation about controlling people, and my soon to be ex loves to control people. And I know she's right about my ex being ticked off because she no longer controls me. I do think the best thing to do is be happy because that will kill her. She will continue to live the rest of her life being bitter and hateful and not enjoying life. I was her second husband, and even though she divorced her first husband 25 years ago she still hates and resents him. I know how she is and there really is no level to which she won't sink. I will try to be as fair as I can with my responses to her accusations, but if I have to I won't hesitate to use dirt to keep my son. My wife was a drinker, and she drank most every night. This left me to be the sober and responsible one so the kids and their friends always had a way to get home or wherever. My kids obviously know this as well. I don't want to drag that up, but I will if it means the difference between keeping custody of my son or losing custody. I continue to try and get my step-daughter to talk to me, but that's even more of an uphill battle as she's older and I'm not her biological father. I continue to tell my daughter that I love her and will always love her no matter what happens.

[Gunny376]

Google 'parential alienation' its really quite common particuarly coming from women side (I didn't say any and all! )

 

But with someone such as you've described your STBXW you can bet the house, barn and the farm that's she's planting a 'bumper crop' worth in the DD and DS's ears on a daily basis.

 

I've got a DD29 and DS26 that I never hear from, never receive an XMAS card, Father's Day Card, nor B'Day Card from, yet I keep sending them.

 

My XHEX is one of those that not only wanted to divorce me as her husband but wanted me out of her happy little life altogether. At age 10 and 6, she told them that "You've got two daddies now, and got my children to call DHX3 'Daddy"

 

I was still in the Corps at the time, and deployed more in my last four years than all the other sixteen combined. I literally would get back from one deployment and go back out on another two week later.

 

At first it was an attitude of "Send Gunny376, he's single without any children." Then after I did a 'bang-up' job of making things 'click' and happen logistically I got the attention of the higher ups at Group Headquarters (For you military types ~ this is the equivalent of an Army Regiment)

 

Finally I had one senior Master Gunnery Sergeant who deployed as much if not more than I did, tell me ~ "Where I go ~ YOU GO!"

 

My point here is not to spin you a tale of woe, but to tell you to do what is every necessary to stay fully engaged in and with your children.

 

 

If that means forgoing getting into another relationship until they're 'grown and gone' then so be it. Its very much a case of an ounce of prevention being worth more than a pound of cure!

[wasted-years]

I love my daughter so much and I'm trying my best not to feel totally rejected in all this and to keep communicating with her. I love my son also, but he doesn't blame me for leaving so we're getting along great. But I swear something has to happen every week to drag me down and feel dejected again. I've spent the last 2 nights responding to 50 pages worth of slander and BS from my STBXW because she's trying to get custody of my son. I was mad at first, but once I saw how weak her claims were, not to mention there wasn't a whole lot of facts to go with it, I almost felt sorry for her. Almost. What's got me down though is that there were 3 texts in there, verbatim, that were texts between my daughter and me. Clearly she has completely sided with her mother on this. I know she's hurt and I know she blames me and I've accepted that, but to see the words I shared with my daughter being used against me, that was tough. How do I communicate with her now? I would have to watch every word I say because I know she's been brainwashed or has chosen to dig up any possible negative things that she can. One of the things was my own stupid fault. I found out her mother was suing for custody one morning, and 2 hours later I found out she showed up and took my son out of school at lunch. I had been texting with my daughter about going out to dinner that night, and I was livid, and in my bad judgment and emotional state I sent a text asking if we could do dinner a different night because her mother was suing for F***ing custody when he clearly wants to live with me. Not smart, and there it was word for word in the summons. Of course, the 3 times I apologized and the 10 times I told her I loved her seemed to missing from there. Even though what I did was stupid, I can't help but feel betrayed. This girl and I had a super close relationship and we always felt safe telling the other person something. I don't know what to do. I think it's clear that I need to avoid communication with my daughter for a while. Hopefully this divorce will go faster, but I've got a better chance of winning the lottery. I wonder how many times the boys side with the Dad and the girls side with the mother, at least the older ones. Is there something that bonds women together and men together in situations like this? Quite honestly I thought it would happen the exact opposite way, or both kids would come with me.

I wish we could just go before Judge Judy and get this over with

[unsureLP]

WY,

 

The situations are quite different and the personalities as well probably, but I wanted to offer you another perspective from a daughter's point of view.

 

My parents separated (they later "successfully" reconciled) when I was 15. My dad moved out and I stayed with my mom almost as a default since she stayed in the house and there was a lot of other stuff going on. My mother was devastated, and because I was the oldest girl (I have two little sisters) and she had nobody else to talk to, she felt she could talk to me about the whole thing. It was awful. I was so angry at my dad, but I was disgusted with my mom. My dad eventually started trying to defend himself to me. Bad mistake, since it just brought him down to my mom's level. I was so angry with them that eventually I left the house and moved by myself (at 16 y/o) thousands of miles away.

 

I've talked to my youngest sister about what happened at the time, and she has a completely different perspective. She was much younger and they tried to keep her out of things. She came out being able to forgive mom and dad (especially dad) whereas I didn't. I still have issues with my mom, even though I love her and as an adult I am trying to understand her choices back then. My father has since passed away and unfortunately we never again had what we used to.

 

So, my advice to you is to try and keep your anger at your wife out of your relationship with your kids. If she's doing it, even if it makes your daughter mad at you now or even sort of take her mom's side, it will backfire.

 

Good luck and I hope you and your kids retain a good relationship.

[wasted-years]

Thanks Unsure, it helps me to try and understand things from her point of view. The situations actually sound pretty similar, because I was the one who left and it hurt my daughter that I "broke up the family", even though I had some pretty justifiable reasons. Still, from a teenagers point of view I'm sure she's not looking at why this happened, but rather that it did and I'm the one who caused it. I think her mother is fairly devastated at this point just like yours, and I'm sure that's a big reason she stayed there. I think she will eventually understand and accept why I did this, because she knows who I am deep down. I don't want to do anything stupid that would permanently jeopardize my relationship with her, but I don't seem to know what's stupid and what's smart at this point. I sooo want to defend myself to her and explain why I did things the way I did. And I have to think of my son also, who will be forced to live somewhere he doesn't want to live if I don't take protect myself from my STBXW outrageous claims. Speaking of which, my lawyer and I just finished our response. It's awful, just awful. I don't take any pleasure in making her look like a horrible person so I can keep my son. What I terribly sad business this all is. But I suppose that's why this forum is here. So did your dad keep in contact with you the whole time after he moved out?

[Gunny376]

When going through a divorce/separation its very much a case of the "less said being the best said to any and all parties involved. Most especially when it comes to children.

 

Even more so when it comes to teenage DD's. I mean come on my Man! They're still children. A teenage child cognitive and reasoning abilities are even fully developed until their late teens to early twenties.

 

That's the reason so many teens and young twenty somethings make such bad decisions in their youth.

 

Look at how teenage girls are with each other. Very manipulative, competitive, "catty" even.

 

Girls need to know that they are loved and cherished by the Fathers, while Sons need to know that their Fathers love and are proud of them.

 

So when it comes to the DD17, keep it simple, keep short, and say things such as "I understand and I love you!"

 

Women have come to believe that they should automatically get custody outright by virtue of (1) having given birth, and (2) being women. But just because your a woman doesn't automatically make you the best parent, (and neither does being a man)

 

But understand this and understand it well. By getting custody of the DS, is going to require a hug sacrificed in your social life. And worth every bit of it in the years to come.

 

Its going to mean putting your self-pride aside, and insisting that the DS stay in contact with his Mother, send her birthday, XMAS, Mother's Day Cards, call her, nurturing her relationship with him and him with her.

 

Try your best not to sling any more dirt than you have to present your case and to defend yourself. Every time your sling a little dirt, your the one that's losing ground.

[unsureLP]

Try your best not to sling any more dirt than you have to present your case and to defend yourself. Every time your sling a little dirt, your the one that's losing ground.

 

^^I couldn't agree more.

 

As for staying in touch with my dad, not really. We did see each other a few times, and we talked a few times, but it was so strained. Things could have been much better, but it didn't turn out that way. Partly my fault of course, but as a reaction to all the ugliness that happened during the separation.

[Angel1111]

One thing I would say is that your comment to your daughter seemed to be an attempt, on some level, to win her over to your side. I understand that this is really difficult for you, especially that you feel your daughter is against you and that you might be losing her. But I don't recommend going down to that level again.

 

I think about what would I do if I were in your shoes. First, I'm not sure I would've slung more dirt in my response to my ex. I would leave it alone. I don't think any of that has any bearing on whether your son stays with you or not. I suppose your lawyer knows better about this, but I think all the mud-slinging is unnecessary. I would take the higher ground and not respond in such a way. I would merely respond to anything negative that was said about me.

 

The other thing I would do is sit down with both of my kids together and talk to them about the divorce and in general as to why you left. Not to talk negatively about their mom, but to talk about the marriage in very general terms. If you never talk about this, it'll always be the white elephant in the room. Whether they like what you say or not isn't relevant - at least you let them know that you were unhappy and that you couldn't take it any longer. Let them know that it really has hurt you that you hurt them, but you hope that someday they'll understand, you hope they love you enough to not expect you to stay in a relationship that has hurt you so much. And do not act guilty or act like you've done something wrong.

 

If your daughter insists on being distant toward you, then remind her of what the two of you had together and how much you don't want to lose that. If that still doesn't work with her, then ask her about how she's doing and what she's going through. I simply would not accept my child growing away from me over this. I would stay in her face until I got results. I hope you'll do this, too.

 

I think that if you get your kids together to talk, your daughter may be more inclined to speak honestly with her brother around. I don't know if that makes sense but I think it would help. Siblings have very different bonds than parents. Your son's presence could instigate some real conversation that could break down this wall that your daughter has put up. Just don't give up and, despite some moments of lapse in judgement, do your best not to include your kids in this battle with your ex.

[Angel1111]

One other thing I want to add is something I remember when my sister left her husband. She had a son from a previous marriage but she had been married to her son's stepdad for 24 yrs, and he didn't have a good relationship with his father so he identified fairly strongly with his stepdad.

 

When my sister left the marriage, he was pretty angry with her. His stepdad was really upset and reaching out to people to cling to. Now, the thing is, he's normally a pretty cold guy and hardly talks to anyone. He wasn't even that close to my sister's son in the friendly sense. But I think my sister's son felt honored that his stepdad was suddenly showing emotion and reaching out to him.

 

Well, for a year or so, they seemed close buddies. They were going to start a business together, etc. My sister's son didn't totally reject her but he was mad at her. They talked about it, though, and she knew it would just be a matter of time before he came around about the whole thing. Eventually, his stepdad showed his true colors and even though they still have a loose relationship, they've had serious ups and downs over the past few years.

 

I guess what I'm trying to say is that your daughter may somewhat be in the same type of situation. If she was never particularly close to her mom, or if they had a strained relationship, then she may feel quite happy that she's the one her mom is reaching out to. But her mom is making a serious mistake by engaging her daughter in this battle, and by being weak. It tells me what she's made of and I think it's just a matter of time before she and her daughter start butting heads.

 

I think it's really important that you continue to come across as the strong parent, the one who's [mostly] in control and sure of himself; instead of the crushed or angry parent. Kids need for their parents to be in control. They don't need for them to do what your ex is doing to your daughter. It's always a bad idea.

 

Some of this will be about letting the dust settle, and some of it will be about breaking down the wall. Just be who you are, know that you had good reason to leave your marriage, and know that you're teaching your children that they always have choices.

[wasted-years]

I just feel awful. An awful I never knew existed before all of this. I had my court date and the custody trial to keep my 16 year old son with me, as his mother was suing for custody and claiming I was basically an unfit parent. Well, it's basically over and he's staying with me. I am relieved and happy about that, but I feel like a chewed up piece of gum that someone spit out. I heard or read somewhere that there are no winners in divorce, there are losers and bigger losers. Couldn't agree more right now. I have my son, but I had to listen to and respond to all the slander being dished out by my STBX, but the absolute worst part was my own daughter talked to the judge and made statements about how I'm irresponsible and immature and not a good father. I can't tell you how much that hurts. In one of the affidavits my STBX posted, she said my daughter has been seeing and talking to me, but she really doesn't want to because she finds me somewhat pathetic and is only doing it because "she feels like it's the right thing to do". I know she's hurting, I know she's angry at me for leaving, but wow, she might as well just have ripped my heart right out of my chest and stepped on it. We were so close I just can't believe this is happening, it's like I don't even know who this girl is anymore. How could she hate me this much? I know I'm supposed to be the adult and forgive her and all that, but some of this is going to be pretty hard to just forget. I can't even describe the feeling of seeing your baby girl saying these awful things about you in an affidavit. With the custody decision, it looks like the STBX might finally agree to give this all up if I agree to no child support. I don't care about child support, I just want this to be done. Once it's done, maybe everyone can start healing. I just hope there's something left of me to heal when it's all over. This has been an absolute gut-wrenching experience, I don't how you all survived it.

[Gunny376]

I posted earlier in one of my early posts to your thread that you should Google "Parental Alienation".

 

My DD is 29, 30 in August, and the DS is 26 ~ and I never see nor hear from them, not even during the holidays. I never get a card, even though I religiously send them.

 

They call the step dad "Daddy" and they don't even call me by my name.

 

From the time they were born, until after they graduated HS? I spent approximately close to $375,000 to around $400,000 on raising them, putting a roof over their heads, food in their mouth, cloths on their back, schooling, child support.

 

I'm not going to sit here and say that I was the worlds best husband and father, but I was a far, far, far cry from being the worse. I spanked both of them once when they were in elementary school. My daughter for lying to me. My son for having grabbed a cat by the tail and swinging it around and around his head by its tail.

 

I've an appointment with a psychologist next month to come up with some new ideas and approaches in applying 'applied psychology" in developing a 'family reconciliation - reunification plan.

 

I've got pretty much figured out? I just need the 'sounding board' of a professional to work out the minor details.

 

And as you've said? Its been gut wrenching and one of the hardest things that I've ever had to deal with.

 

Give it time ~ a lot of time.

 

Don't give unsolicited advice.

 

Go slow in it and with it.

 

Don't be hesitant to seek the help of a professional.

 

Don't try and be "Daddy" to her in the sense of being authoritative.

 

Don't live your life for your children.

 

Don't try and live your life through your children.

 

Be consistent and persistent. Send cards for the 'Big Five" holidays and gifts if appropriate.

 

When the DD throws 'anger' words at you just remember she may be speaking them? But their her mothers' words.

 

Don't get angry, too wrapped in your own sense of self pride and dignity. Don't let either get in the way.

 

Don't over analyze.

 

You may want to read a book titled, "Second Chances" a in-depth study lasting over twenty plus year about the short, medium and long term effects of divorce on children in California. Some of them effecting them and their future relationships into as much as their forties.

 

Finally you know that you gave the best and all that you could give at the time, and you know that if you had known better? You would have given that as well.

 

You know that you gave 110%!

[wasted-years]

I actually looked up parental alienation the first time you mentioned it, and I used some of the "signs" that it's happening in some of my affidavits for the custody fight. I don't know, maybe I'm wrong, but I'm going to ignore my daughter for a while. Maybe then she'll want to see me or talk with me once in a while. I think right now that every time I text her and tell her I love her, or try to get her out to dinner, that she just finds me even more pathetic. Maybe if I don't communicate with her for a while she'll realize that she has to put some effort into our relationship and remember that I wasn't such a horrible father.