SarahRose Posted March 10, 2010 Posted March 10, 2010 But why do guys want to watch stuff where women look so humiliated? I think that's where the problem is, not in porn itself. I'd think it's just for guys who are upset because they can't get a girlfriend in real life and so really hate women but if that's so there must be quite a bunch of these losers out there. Isn't this why boys start watching porn in their teens in the first place? They are super horny and the hot chicks won't give them the time of day so they use porn and the message it sends is that they are all so powerful over these bitchy hot girls and the hot girls want them and will do anything they want. Most of the porn I have see does seem to degrade women. The gay porn I have seen I don't see them yelling at their "victim" calling them filthy names like the hetero porn.
SarahRose Posted March 10, 2010 Posted March 10, 2010 So it’s okay to showcase women as objects because it’s what men like and need. That’s the core of your argument. There is no “make it seem” about it. Men are not interested in women’s needs. They are interested in using them and tossing them and then expecting real women to not be confused with the mirrored of messages they send about how they think women deserve to be treated. Totally! I said that before myself. Men peg women into little boxes and take them out to play when they feel like it. Porn comes out to play at times and then he takes his wife/gf out to play of her box for other times. Sometimes he wants to play with both together because after all, women are only there to be empty toys. Never claimed that they didn’t get paid! Never said they weren’t willing participants. Does this make any of my points less true? Does this make porn any more less demeaning to women in general? Does that mean, if women willingly go into the business that it’s okay for husbands, fathers and boyfriend around the world to indulge in it? Not sure what point you are trying to make here because I never said it was forced. Women aren’t sitting in-front of their computers and TVs for a billion dollars worth of watching men get used for his money and affection and being called names! That’s exactly my point. Women aren’t sitting there getting off on the debasement of the male gender and then turning around and proclaiming that they really do respect women and don’t see them as worthless toys. Men are everyday! And yet we don’t get any kind of male understanding or hope that you give a damn. Just “oh well men need to use women so shut up and just watch it with him and make sure to spread your legs because *this* makes him happy. Who cares what you need. You’re just a woman and you deserve to be smacked around and used to jerk off over”. You men are LUCKY that women aren’t sitting around getting off to your debasement. Men do this EVERYDAY. It hurts. And you said a mouthful there. Men consider women shells to be used. Men buy into the fantasy everyday. You men are so lucky that women don’t have anything 1/10th comparable to treating men like they are empty shells for women to use and toss. You defend it on the basis of it being an illusion. But it is an illusion men buy in to such a degree that they gain physical pleasure from the illusion and idea of a woman being an empty “tool” for his masturbation. I’d like to see you sit there and defend and industry that treated men like that at about a billion dollars worth of money. Not ONE man would like it. Not one. Not one man would defend it. And yet, you except women to. No offense but I didn’t ask you what your father did or didn’t do. It’s nice that you shared the information but you never answered my direct questions. I asked you how many parents do you think talk to their son’s and daughters about porn compared to how many sons at this moment are downloading porn where women are considering WORTHLESS. SHELLS. EMPTY. This completely contradicts your previous comments about women being represented as “shells” in porn. More honesty, it seems men respect and care for women to a certain point. But when it comes to sex, it’s okay for men to use women any way he deems okay. To treat her as she is worthless. To use and toss aside. I guess I question how much respect men really have when they can at face value pretend they respect the women in their lives put at night clothes the doors and support and industry that is about the debasement of the female gender and the sexual gratification of the male gender. I have no doubt that people logically separate fiction from reality. However, the reason fiction/fantasy is so popular because it’s ability to dupe the brain into believing it on some level. That is why men are able to get excited to it. YOU believe the situation enough to get turned on. We have seen an increase in violence and young people imitating things they see on TV or in video games. We’ve seen an increase in sexual relationships becoming more “pornified” and culture in general more open to pornography and encouraging men to spend more time with it and women spending more time trying to be like it. It doesn’t have to be at the extreme you stated for it to have a negative affect. And you are naive to think that men have a handle on their porn use when people seem more likely to abuse any form of substance that they have easy access too. We aren’t a country that is fat just on food. Add in the fact how abundant porn is, how free and easy and anonymous is, and you have a breeding ground for something 10times more dangerous then food. Just because someone agrees or is paid to do something doesn’t mean it’s not degrading to them or to a general gender. I didn’t ask you to be responsible for their choices. It was a simple question that you side stepped by tossing out “I don’t care” . Instead of thinking about the question and answering it. I’m sorry but It’s not my responsibility to be his gate keeper. You seem to be blaming women for how men behave. Are men not able to behave without being lead around on a leash? Are men not responsible for their own choices? Do men need women to be their gate keepers? I would hope not. No woman wants a man that is that weak. Absolutely brilliant post!
marsle85 Posted March 11, 2010 Posted March 11, 2010 What is the big deal?! Honestly, men are NOT sitting at their computers saying "women getting degraded is so hot!" They're turned on by the hot PORN STAR, who is well practiced in her trade having SEX. Do you know why? Because SEX is SEXY. Jeeze. I'm sure 100% of you have read romance novels and flipped back to a certain scandalous few pages! And a note on the degradation. I watch porn and LOVE when women get spanked. It's hotttt... I guess i'm chauvinistic!
homersheineken Posted March 11, 2010 Posted March 11, 2010 What is the big deal?! Honestly, men are NOT sitting at their computers saying "women getting degraded is so hot!" They're turned on by the hot PORN STAR, who is well practiced in her trade having SEX. Do you know why? Because SEX is SEXY. Jeeze. I'm sure 100% of you have read romance novels and flipped back to a certain scandalous few pages! And a note on the degradation. I watch porn and LOVE when women get spanked. It's hotttt... I guess i'm chauvinistic! You're a pig! Seriously, she's convinced porn is made to ruin her life and relationships ... there's no convincing otherwise.
A O Posted March 11, 2010 Posted March 11, 2010 Isn't this why boys start watching porn in their teens in the first place? They are super horny and the hot chicks won't give them the time of day No. so they use porn and the message it sends is that they are all so powerful over these bitchy hot girls and the hot girls want them and will do anything they want. No. Most of the porn I have see does seem to degrade women. The gay porn I have seen I don't see them yelling at their "victim" calling them filthy names like the hetero porn.Just remember that its acting and that most people get this, as evidence by the fact that you and most women in general are not subject to sexual degradation, and for the few that are, most won't put up with it for long. .
marsle85 Posted March 11, 2010 Posted March 11, 2010 For the most part- i've been siding with the girls on this forum. This isn't the case in this scenario. I truly believe the women who are commenting on the outrageousness of porn, being the degradation, violence, name calling, etc. have not actually seen a representative sample. Now, I'm not trying to glorify porn, because my male counterparts do that enough... but really? You will find those behaviors (hair pulling, tying up, whipping, "fake rape", etc.) but under specific search queries. Fortunately, those videos make up a small distribution in the overall quantity of pornography. And yes, those do cater to unfavorable characteristics in the viewers. But for many, they're strictly that: fantasy. Regardless, those people who aren't limited to fantasy are existant with/without porn. That's not to say what another poster said was true: viewing violent material does increase aggression in participants. Expecting teenage boys (or girls, for that matter) not to view porn, or saying their only reason for watching porn is their own desperation or (help me: freakiness?) is absolutely ignorant. It's silly. Engaging in masturbation and observing porn (dependent on its content) has shown to be extremely helpful in sexual health. Furthermore- the majority of porn that these boys would be watching is your typical afterschool delight: nurse/doctor, teacher/student, etc. Out and out FANTASIES. And to be quite honest, porn has (and will) reflect its viewers. The more S&M desired will be produced, for example. Girls, it's inevitable- and no video is even CLOSE to comparable to your skin, hips, pulse, breasts. Society doctrines that we are truly the most sensual creatures on the planet, embrace it...we have it made.
aerogurl87 Posted March 11, 2010 Posted March 11, 2010 (edited) My ex watched porn like crazy and turned out to be a controlling, manipulative a**hole who thought of all women as being sex objects. Another guy I knew who watched it all the time, told me phone sex wasn't cheating on his girlfriend and then told me about his dream of having a threesome with me and some other black girl behind his girlfriend's back. So usually guys who watch an insane amount of porn usually have commitment issues in my experience. There's a difference between jacking off from time to time and it being almost compulsory. With that said I like porn. I'm a big fan of playboy and my guy is the opposite. He finds it degrading to women and doesn't really like porn that much, he'lll only watch it if he's not in a committed relationship. Edited March 11, 2010 by aerogurl87
marsle85 Posted March 11, 2010 Posted March 11, 2010 Sorry girly, but what does having a girlfriend or not have to do with your stance on degradation of women? I can't say for sure of course, but I highly believe he visits those websites, dating or not. And who cares if you have a good relationship? Obviously porn or no porn- he turned out okay, IMO it's not my right to tell someone what they can or can't do with their bodies and minds if it doesn't impact me.
aerogurl87 Posted March 11, 2010 Posted March 11, 2010 Sorry girly, but what does having a girlfriend or not have to do with your stance on degradation of women? I can't say for sure of course, but I highly believe he visits those websites, dating or not. And who cares if you have a good relationship? Obviously porn or no porn- he turned out okay, IMO it's not my right to tell someone what they can or can't do with their bodies and minds if it doesn't impact me. You know what, I really don't care if he watches porn, doesn't bother me in the least bit. He's shocked I like playboy, lol (there's something about that bunny). But he claims he doesn't watch it, but even if he does I don't care, I'm secure enough within myself to know that the real thing (me) is better than some pixels on a computer screen.
Jersey Shortie Posted March 13, 2010 Posted March 13, 2010 MercyFullFate This whole post shocked, confused me and made me kind of angry. I had that same reaction to porn. But I doubt you care about that. You'll just make fun of me more because I dared say anything bad about porn. You'll say some negative things about me in turn and it will only re-inforce my opinion that men are completely loyal to their porn. SarahRose Isn't this why boys start watching porn in their teens in the first place? They are super horny and the hot chicks won't give them the time of day so they use porn and the message it sends is that they are all so powerful over these bitchy hot girls and the hot girls want them and will do anything they want. Yes. That is sometimes the case. Absolutely brilliant post Thank you. Marsle What is the big deal?! Honestly, men are NOT sitting at their computers saying "women getting degraded is so hot!" They're turned on by the hot PORN STAR, who is well practiced in her trade having SEX. Do you know why? Because SEX is SEXY. Jeeze. I'm sure 100% of you have read romance novels and flipped back to a certain scandalous few pages! And a note on the degradation. I watch porn and LOVE when women get spanked. It's hotttt... I guess i'm chauvinistic! Marsle, I like your posts on the board so don't take this the wrong way but maybe you are chauvinistic. It's not such a ridiculous idea. And just because your a woman who likes it, doesn't mean that it isn't degrading. Actually, I think in a round about way, that is exactly what many guys are doing. They like seeing the women used like objects for sex. Then they turn to their wives and gfs and expect them to believe their sincerity in their love or respect for them when they can't even respect women on a general level. I understand why people like seeing sex, however there is a tipping point we've well gone over where it's gotten ridiculous in current culture. We aren't talking about men sneaking a peek at a Playboy mag once a month anymore. The PORN STAR is not "well practiced" in her *trade*. They do not spend time practicing sex just to have it on screen. These girls usually have very limited choices in life and turn to it because they think it will make their lives better. A few select limited number really make it big. Most get out of it within a year span. The average pornstar lasts 6 month-1 year and she is asked to do more intrepid acts as time wheres on.  Homer Seriously, she's convinced porn is made to ruin her life and relationships ... there's no convincing otherwise. Wrong. You will find those behaviors (hair pulling, tying up, whipping, "fake rape", etc.) but under specific search queries. Fortunately, those videos make up a small distribution in the overall quantity of pornography. And yes, those do cater to unfavorable characteristics in the viewers. But for many, they're strictly that: fantasy. You're underplaying it vastly. No one here is a stranger to the sexual acts you talk about. They are not merely a small segment of stuff that is out there. Even if they were, porn is still not a healthy show of what real sex is. It is regular stuff for porn to call women names or treat them roughly. Infact, porn producers and actors talk about how they have to continue to "push the envelop" because of the mass over consumption of a product that fails to draw the same response anymore over time. Porn sets a standard of physical acts, looks and movements that I think alot of people buy into more then they care to admit to themselves. And yes, we all know it's fantasy. What does that change exactly? That it's okay to degrade women as long as it's only something men wish to do? Does a man's response lessen to the porn even though it's fantasy? Why should a woman's response to the degradtion of it lessen to it anymore then a man's response to it would? Expecting teenage boys (or girls, for that matter) not to view porn, or saying their only reason for watching porn is their own desperation or (help me: freakiness?) is absolutely ignorant. It's silly. Engaging in masturbation and observing porn (dependent on its content) has shown to be extremely helpful in sexual health. No one said that viewing porn was out of their own freakishness. It is normal to be curious about porn. However, alot of boys do turn to porn out of a frustration when they are younger and become quite dependent on it well into adulthood. And most parents are talking to their kids about porn or what healthy sex is. With that said, sex and masturbation are perfectly healthy. The ideas and images in porn are not. I do not know one study that says that teenage boys and girls viewing porn, getting their developing sexual ideas from it is healthy. Lets not confuse the physical act of masturbating or even real sex to the images of porn depicting sex between men and women. Furthermore- the majority of porn that these boys would be watching is your typical afterschool delight: nurse/doctor, teacher/student, etc. Out and out FANTASIES. And to be quite honest, porn has (and will) reflect its viewers. The more S&M desired will be produced, for example. How do you know what most boys are viewing? If you don't think boys aren't exploring more niche porn, you are kidding yourself. Regardless, there are still negative stereotypes in the type of porn displays you discribed.There are still certain stereotypes upheld. Just because it's fantasy doesn't mean it's completely healthy. Girls, it's inevitable- and no video is even CLOSE to comparable to your skin, hips, pulse, breasts. Society doctrines that we are truly the most sensual creatures on the planet, embrace it...we have it made.Alright I've watched a LOT of porn in my day, and the truly degrading porn is something I've seen only a handful of times. Of course if that's your kink/fetish that's one thing and you may watch it all the time, but come on. Why don't we that excuse to justify why men in relationships shouldn't look in porn? If we can tell women that a video doesn't come close to comparing to their skin or bodies, why not tell men that if a real woman is so much better then the fantasy of the perfect body on screen, why would you need the girl in the video at all? I am sorry but I really hate when people use that arguement. I usually see men make it. Women are suppose to accept porn on the basis that they are so much more sexy! And yet, men can look at porn because it's so sexy and has all these elements they can't get at home! It makes no sense. If an indivdual's womans beauty was so special and sexy, then a man wouldn't even need to turn to porn. And yes, we are sensual creatures. But your ability to like and look at porn does not make you a more sensual creature. We are sensual creatures, but that does not mean you should feed every little twinge you feel in your body to appeas yourself. I mean if a porn director says "You're taking it in all three holes for this scene" the woman can say "No, I'm not" and have it not happen. I guess if you have a radical feminist view of degradation, sure. However it's not much worse than watching The Bachelor, or Rock of Love. OH yes, the women COMPLETELY has the right to say no. HOwever, her ability to agree to whatever sexual act doesn't mean it's not degrading. Even if she agrees to it, no man watching it or doing it to her is going to be *respecting* her. And I hate the Bachelor. I think the man tends to be as insipid and fluff as the women on there.
marsle85 Posted March 14, 2010 Posted March 14, 2010 (edited) You know what, I really don't care if he watches porn, doesn't bother me in the least bit. He's shocked I like playboy, lol (there's something about that bunny). But he claims he doesn't watch it, but even if he does I don't care, I'm secure enough within myself to know that the real thing (me) is better than some pixels on a computer screen. I'm glad to hear that, girly. I think porn among other things falls into a category of values/morals/experience/etc. that's based on preference. It's important to find someone who shares your same beliefs, and if not- you've identified an issue that's very likely to determine your own personal value system. It's so hard to find compatiability as it is- if you've found it, and have a few hang ups that I don't agree with, oh well. More power to you... you still have what i'm looking for. You must be doing something right. How do you know what most boys are viewing? The same way you know: "alot of boys do turn to porn out of a frustration when they are younger and become quite dependent on it well into adulthood." Obviously I don't expect you to pull up statistics supporting every claim you have- I understand a lot of what we post is based on our experiences and expectations. But both of our points are relatively baseless. Marsle, I like your posts on the board so don't take this the wrong way but maybe you are chauvinistic. It's not such a ridiculous idea. And just because your a woman who likes it, doesn't mean that it isn't degrading. Thanks babe, right back at you. Online posts are so hard to interpret as it is... Actually, I think in a round about way, that is exactly what many guys are doing. They like seeing the women used like objects for sex. Then they turn to their wives and gfs and expect them to believe their sincerity in their love or respect for them when they can't even respect women on a general level. I wouldn't be surprised to find this...but that's an awfully broad statement. Especially because, as I've mentioned- a lot of porn doesn't include spanking, or other demeaning acts. I think the problem more lies in the viewer's eyes. It is not the man being videotaped treating the porn star like an object... it is the viewer using the woman as tool of sexual pleasure that makes her an object. Odd sidebar. When I was 14, my mom had a little chat with me. She was aware I was viewing porn (via internet history or whatever) and overall- she found it important for me to know: 1- it's not wrong for me to watch porn. It's normal, and healthy. 2- ** That "this" (referrring to the porn) is not real. She reminded me that this was not what it was like, what it should be like- and that with a person you love (yadayadayada) sex can be much more intimate, special, etc. So furthermore, when I view porn (and especially since that conversation) I don't see it as a representation of what sex should be like, or what my sex life will assimilate into. I think that watching a variety of porn can locate personal turn-ons and help with sexual identification and growth. Like you, I do think that there should be a line, however. The difference for me what not the kind of porn I watched, but my own perception of the porn. Where that line is? I don't know. The PORN STAR is not "well practiced" in her *trade*. They do not spend time practicing sex just to have it on screen. These girls usually have very limited choices in life and turn to it because they think it will make their lives better. A few select limited number really make it big. Most get out of it within a year span. The average pornstar lasts 6 month-1 year and she is asked to do more intrepid acts as time wheres on. That is very true, but not necessarily mainstream porn. Cases of prostitution are more likely (but not limited to) those characteristics. It's not okay, it's not right- and you're right, we don't make a big enough effort to offer other choices for these women...but ultimately, it is a choice. The sad thing is, our culture embraces these photographic/videography of women preforming sexual acts. With its popularity comes further acceptance and availability. 12, 13, 14 year olds taking pictures of themselves? Gross. Sad. But a majority of those girls do have a relatively plenty amount of economic, emotional stability... afterall they do have cell phones paid for by parents. I know that there are the cases of emotional instability... but the demographic of the children pursuing this behavior? Your everyday teenager. The fact is, they're sending those images to their boyfriends. So maybe, the bigger issue here is self-esteem and societal acceptance. Why don't we that excuse to justify why men in relationships shouldn't look in porn? If we can tell women that a video doesn't come close to comparing to their skin or bodies, why not tell men that if a real woman is so much better then the fantasy of the perfect body on screen, why would you need the girl in the video at all? I am sorry but I really hate when people use that arguement. I usually see men make it. Women are suppose to accept porn on the basis that they are so much more sexy! And yet, men can look at porn because it's so sexy and has all these elements they can't get at home! It makes no sense. If an indivdual's womans beauty was so special and sexy, then a man wouldn't even need to turn to porn. I -don't- have a problem with a husband/boyfriend looking at porn. I don't even have an issue with them going to stripclubs (rarely, mind you) for a bachelor's party or out with the guys. If these instances come between the relationship because of the frequency or value to the guy, okay we have a problem... but honest truth- I don't mind it. I guess I just have so much security in my own worth. I know i'm giving him so much more than what a computer screen can. I know this. I don't doubt myself or his feelings for me. And believing that a man is so very consumed with his girl that he shouldn't be tempted to view porn is not realistic or even fair. That's like saying you can't be attracted to someone else other than your boyfriend because (he's so great). We're human beings- and evolutionarily driven more than many believe. That said, I expect him to exhibit self control but- as long as he fulfills me emotionally, mentally, physically - and I do the same for him, my own viewership or his - are irrelevent. And yes, we are sensual creatures. But your ability to like and look at porn does not make you a more sensual creature. We are sensual creatures, but that does not mean you should feed every little twinge you feel in your body to appeas yourself. I agree, but I don't think casually viewing porn is appeasing every twinge. If this develops into an obsession- you're absolutely right... but few fall into that cateogory. And I do think viewing porn, reading romance novels, referring to the internet, Cosmopolitan, how-to books... ALL make you into a more sensual creature! They enable the viewer to learn, engage and understand more than they knew before. That isn't to say it's all good, that isn't to say that they won't be exposed to negative aspects... but there are negative sides to every outlet. It's like saying looking at your genetalia in the mirror isn't educational and generally healthy for the participant. You learn, grow and ultimately become more comfortable with yourself. I'm all about that, you know? Edited March 14, 2010 by marsle85
BobSacamento Posted March 14, 2010 Posted March 14, 2010 When a woman wants to control what a man watches it just screams of an inferiority complex. It's so blatant and to try to rationalize it any other way is just a completely weak argument. BTW he hides it because he knows it bothers you and wants to avoid confrontation.
Ilovecake Posted March 14, 2010 Posted March 14, 2010 Not all guys look at porn. I've known some that would rather have it than watch it. But you do have a certain type that regularly views it, and I tend to stray away from those type of men. They tend to be very 'creepy' and often view women as sex objects; very superficial. They talk about sex way too much ; and develop weird fetishes and addictions to porn. I have not met a guy who did not fall into this category who was a regularly porn viewer. I would never be able to trust a man to be good relationship/husband material who watches porn on a regular basis. Does that also go for women who enjoy watching pornography? I think yours is a very prudish, close minded attitude towards sexuality.
marsle85 Posted March 14, 2010 Posted March 14, 2010 After rereading my post, I want to make a comment regarding something i've said. When speaking about why I dont mind my bf viewing porn- the reasoning being that I'm secure with myself, blah blah blah... I in no way was trying to imply Jersey Shortie (or anyone else) has a problem with it because they are insecure, etc. I am only trying to best explain why in my personal experience, I go unoffended. It's one thing to not like porn, it's another entirely to have this deranged, baseless generalized view of porn and men that seems to come from some childhood trauma or something. That's a serious stretch. Her argument is defending a proactive way to get women out of a position that most often leaves them inferior. I don't see how that action (which should be applauded, when basically everyone (including myself) is disagreeing with her) has to be related to some childhood trauma by default. Plus, research does show that viewing aggressive material often manifests itself in the participant. It's not completely harmless. When a woman wants to control what a man watches it just screams of an inferiority complex. It's so blatant and to try to rationalize it any other way is just a completely weak argument. Not necessarily the best argument itself. That's like saying any of the actions targeting female equality also are based on an inferiority complex. In a way, that's absolutely what she's saying. There is an inferiority complex because in many ways women are inferior. She -should- be upset. I think you're finally getting the point. To me, what I gathered from her posts is that she doesn't mind the porn itself, but how it portrays women which is thereby reinforced socially and within the relationship. Whether I agree with that is a different story. I might not agree with the basis of her argument, but it's respectable and is -not- baseless. It has a legitimate grounding.
Woggle Posted March 14, 2010 Posted March 14, 2010 I think feminists should embrace porn. This way men can wack off and women can go and live their single and independent lives without us holding them back. This is something more women should embrace.
marsle85 Posted March 14, 2010 Posted March 14, 2010 Any argument one wishes to make can be backed up by studies, but any study I've ever seen on violent media, does not support that idea. You can find studies that say marijuana causes dementia and rape, but it's a load of bollocks. There was an entire book by two doctors on violent video games and that belief, it was not supported. People who are violent, will be attracted to violent media. The violent media does not take a completely harmless person and make them into something they are not. Research does reveal violent media does causally impact aggression, among other variables. The following has been retrieved from EBSCOhost/peer-reviewed journals, and is not just one study... it is a meta-analysis, meaning it's comprised of a large number of studies and adjusted to negate treatment effects, sampling error, etc.: Social–cognitive models and cultural differences between Japan and Western countries were used to generate theory-based predictions. Meta-analyses yielded significant effects for all 6 outcome variables. The pattern of results for different outcomes and research designs (experimental, cross-sectional, longitudinal) fit theoretical predictions well. The evidence strongly suggests that exposure to violent video games is a causal risk factor for increased aggressive behavior, aggressive cognition, and aggressive affect and for decreased empathy and prosocial behavior. Moderator analyses revealed significant research design effects, weak evidence of cultural differences in susceptibility and type of measurement effects, and no evidence of sex differences in susceptibility. Results of various sensitivity analyses revealed these effects to be robust, with little evidence of selection (publication) bias. (PsycINFO Database Record © 2010 APA, all rights reserved) What you're referring to is the inflamed societal reaction to it, at certain times, been exaggerated by politicians, pressure groups and some social scientists. Sorry if I was dumbing down the "meta-analysis" portion of my post, I don't know your knowledge with psychology/statistical research. Just feeding the controversy.
BobSacamento Posted March 14, 2010 Posted March 14, 2010 Not necessarily the best argument itself. That's like saying any of the actions targeting female equality also are based on an inferiority complex. In a way, that's absolutely what she's saying. There is an inferiority complex because in many ways women are inferior. She -should- be upset. I think you're finally getting the point. To me, what I gathered from her posts is that she doesn't mind the porn itself, but how it portrays women which is thereby reinforced socially and within the relationship. Whether I agree with that is a different story. I might not agree with the basis of her argument, but it's respectable and is -not- baseless. It has a legitimate grounding. So she believes men in realtionships who watch porn become brainwashed and therefore attain unreasonable expectations?
BobSacamento Posted March 14, 2010 Posted March 14, 2010 I had that same reaction to porn. But I doubt you care about that. You'll just make fun of me more because I dared say anything bad about porn. You'll say some negative things about me in turn and it will only re-inforce my opinion that men are completely loyal to their porn. Marsle, I like your posts on the board so don't take this the wrong way but maybe you are chauvinistic. It's not such a ridiculous idea. And just because your a woman who likes it, doesn't mean that it isn't degrading. Actually, I think in a round about way, that is exactly what many guys are doing. They like seeing the women used like objects for sex. Then they turn to their wives and gfs and expect them to believe their sincerity in their love or respect for them when they can't even respect women on a general level. I understand why people like seeing sex, however there is a tipping point we've well gone over where it's gotten ridiculous in current culture. We aren't talking about men sneaking a peek at a Playboy mag once a month anymore. The PORN STAR is not "well practiced" in her *trade*. They do not spend time practicing sex just to have it on screen. These girls usually have very limited choices in life and turn to it because they think it will make their lives better. A few select limited number really make it big. Most get out of it within a year span. The average pornstar lasts 6 month-1 year and she is asked to do more intrepid acts as time wheres on. You're underplaying it vastly. No one here is a stranger to the sexual acts you talk about. They are not merely a small segment of stuff that is out there. Even if they were, porn is still not a healthy show of what real sex is. It is regular stuff for porn to call women names or treat them roughly. Infact, porn producers and actors talk about how they have to continue to "push the envelop" because of the mass over consumption of a product that fails to draw the same response anymore over time. Porn sets a standard of physical acts, looks and movements that I think alot of people buy into more then they care to admit to themselves. And yes, we all know it's fantasy. What does that change exactly? That it's okay to degrade women as long as it's only something men wish to do? Does a man's response lessen to the porn even though it's fantasy? Why should a woman's response to the degradtion of it lessen to it anymore then a man's response to it would? No one said that viewing porn was out of their own freakishness. It is normal to be curious about porn. However, alot of boys do turn to porn out of a frustration when they are younger and become quite dependent on it well into adulthood. And most parents are talking to their kids about porn or what healthy sex is. With that said, sex and masturbation are perfectly healthy. The ideas and images in porn are not. I do not know one study that says that teenage boys and girls viewing porn, getting their developing sexual ideas from it is healthy. Lets not confuse the physical act of masturbating or even real sex to the images of porn depicting sex between men and women. If you don't think boys aren't exploring more niche porn, you are kidding yourself. Regardless, there are still negative stereotypes in the type of porn displays you discribed.There are still certain stereotypes upheld. Just because it's fantasy doesn't mean it's completely healthy. Why don't we that excuse to justify why men in relationships shouldn't look in porn? If we can tell women that a video doesn't come close to comparing to their skin or bodies, why not tell men that if a real woman is so much better then the fantasy of the perfect body on screen, why would you need the girl in the video at all? I am sorry but I really hate when people use that arguement. I usually see men make it. Women are suppose to accept porn on the basis that they are so much more sexy! And yet, men can look at porn because it's so sexy and has all these elements they can't get at home! It makes no sense. If an indivdual's womans beauty was so special and sexy, then a man wouldn't even need to turn to porn. And yes, we are sensual creatures. But your ability to like and look at porn does not make you a more sensual creature. We are sensual creatures, but that does not mean you should feed every little twinge you feel in your body to appeas yourself. OH yes, the women COMPLETELY has the right to say no. HOwever, her ability to agree to whatever sexual act doesn't mean it's not degrading. Even if she agrees to it, no man watching it or doing it to her is going to be *respecting* her. And I hate the Bachelor. I think the man tends to be as insipid and fluff as the women on there. I think you are approaching this the wrong way. The reality of it is that Porn is degrading to both men and women.
Jersey Shortie Posted March 15, 2010 Posted March 15, 2010 JerseyShortie: Actually, I think in a round about way, that is exactly what many guys are doing. They like seeing the women used like objects for sex. Then they turn to their wives and gfs and expect them to believe their sincerity in their love or respect for them when they can't even respect women on a general level. Marsle: I wouldn't be surprised to find this...but that's an awfully broad statement. Especially because, as I've mentioned- a lot of porn doesn't include spanking, or other demeaning acts. I think the problem more lies in the viewer's eyes. It is not the man being videotaped treating the porn star like an object... it is the viewer using the woman as tool of sexual pleasure that makes her an object. There doesn't have to be an ass smack in sight for it to be demeaning. I do not think men are watching porn where it's all gentel sex and rainbows and about respecting women. Quite the opposite. It's suppose to be raunchy and usually men could care less about if the women is really enjoying herself compared to just putting on a show to make it seem like she is. And you illustrate my point exactly. There are so many guys out there saying they love and respect their woman or women in general but then turn around and use other women as a means to an end for his self-satisfaction. Am I saying this makes men evil or mean? No. But I do not understand why men don't understand why a woman wouldn't question his ability to respect women if he can easily toggle back and forth and treat women as he sees fit based strictly on his personal needs. I guess it's okay to stereotype and generalize women in a video, and expect your gf/wife to be so sweet and open to you meanwhile you get off on a industry that is about the objectifcation, generalization and stereotyping of the female gender. Alot of guys get pissed off at me for generalization or even have the gaul to tell me I am degrading men by my comments and yet they fail to ever consider the industry they support by watching and support by defending generalize and objectify women. It's okay to generalize and objectify. But it's not okay to generalize men or question them for objectifying women. You're just suppose to follow him blindly even though he is showing you that he can easily toggle betwen what roles he thinks what women should play. That's what really frutrates me. All the men that tell me I am offensive yet want to be accepted even though they indulge in offensive material about women. 1- it's not wrong for me to watch porn. It's normal, and healthy. 2- ** That "this" (referrring to the porn) is not real. She reminded me that this was not what it was like, what it should be like- and that with a person you love (yadayadayada) sex can be much more intimate, special, etc. I will say this. I think it's normal to be curious about porn. I think it's normal to have sexual feelings and to masturbate. I do not think the images and ideas projected in porn or normal or healthy or something young teenagers can process objectably. I am not saying you are an unobjective person. You are quite intelligent. However, I do think when you look at porn that early, it changes your ideas on sex and sexuality. And I am not ready to say that it's a better change. So furthermore, when I view porn (and especially since that conversation) I don't see it as a representation of what sex should be like, or what my sex life will assimilate into. I think that watching a variety of porn can locate personal turn-ons and help with sexual identification and growth. Like you, I do think that there should be a line, however. The difference for me what not the kind of porn I watched, but my own perception of the porn. Where that line is? I don't know. Why do you think that you would not be able to discover your turn-ons without porn? Have you ever been with a man that asked you do something he saw in porn? Or did a move on you that was clearly very "porno"? I have. It's a little daunting. I think expectations on what was/is "normal" and what is porn-sex have changed. And when you get a culture that has something that comes into your home, completely free and annoymous, you creat a breeding ground of problems like none other. I think the younger generations of boys and girls are worse off for this. ...we don't make a big enough effort to offer other choices for these women...but ultimately, it is a choice. The sad thing is, our culture embraces these photographic/videography of women preforming sexual acts. It is a choice and one I think some, maybe even many, make thinking this will make them rich, or the ywill get a type of validation they never had in life. They soon find out that the fantasy projected on screen is vastly different then what the industry is really like. It is funny though because our culture does embrace porn, all the while holding it in contempt for what it is as well. So many men will defend porn but then think belitting thoughts of the women in the movie. With its popularity comes further acceptance and availability. 12, 13, 14 year olds taking pictures of themselves? Gross. Sad. But a majority of those girls do have a relatively plenty amount of economic, emotional stability... afterall they do have cell phones paid for by parents. I know that there are the cases of emotional instability... but the demographic of the children pursuing this behavior? Your everyday teenager. The fact is, they're sending those images to their boyfriends. So maybe, the bigger issue here is self-esteem and societal acceptance. I think the castrophone of young kids doing this is a combination of self-esteem, too much technology, not enough parentental controls, and an over sexualized world that tells women their major worth is their bodies and tells boys that they need to be sexually insatable guys to be a "real man". I also don't think most parents are talking to their kids like they should. So you got 12 year old Timmy up in his personalized computer looking at breast implanted, supped up women having crazy sex and timmy starts thinking that that's what sex is suppose to be about and that's how girls should look. So we can all sit here and say *it's just fantasy* but it's not when real women and girls start wanting to look more like it and men start asking their partners to be more or do things that they saw in the latest porn flick. I -don't- have a problem with a husband/boyfriend looking at porn. I don't even have an issue with them going to stripclubs (rarely, mind you) for a bachelor's party or out with the guys. If these instances come between the relationship because of the frequency or value to the guy, okay we have a problem... but honest truth- I don't mind it. I guess I just have so much security in my own worth. I know i'm giving him so much more than what a computer screen can. I know this. I don't doubt myself or his feelings for me. And believing that a man is so very consumed with his girl that he shouldn't be tempted to view porn is not realistic or even fair. That's like saying you can't be attracted to someone else other than your boyfriend because (he's so great). We're human beings- and evolutionarily driven more than many believe. That said, I expect him to exhibit self control but- as long as he fulfills me emotionally, mentally, physically - and I do the same for him, my own viewership or his - are irrelevent. I do not expect my guy to never ever be attracted to another woman again. I do expect a certain level of control if he is really committed. Too man guys flight back and forth between wanting to pretend they are single and having a real woman that loves them. They love both feeligns and selfishly try to live a life where they have both and the woman is suppose to sacrifice her own needs to his. I do think strip clubs are out of the line. There is no reason why a guy needs to go other then to be turned on by other women. And you are either in a relationship or you're not. You either want to be committed or you don't. It's all too half-assed now-a-days. And I do think viewing porn, reading romance novels, referring to the internet, Cosmopolitan, how-to books... ALL make you into a more sensual creature! Do they? Or do they conform your sexuality to a mass product that they are selling? The first purpose of any of these industries is to sell a product at any cost. It has nothing to do with real sexuality or sensuality.
Jersey Shortie Posted March 15, 2010 Posted March 15, 2010 I respect your opinion, but god damn is it crazy. It's one thing to not like porn, it's another entirely to have this deranged, baseless generalized view of porn and men that seems to come from some childhood trauma or something. There's nothing wrong with watching porn unless it's some type of crazy addiction. I just do not even understand what your issue is. Okay so you don't respect my opinion because you totally just belittled it. It's funny how you feel offended by my generalized view on men (even more interesting how you tie porn and men together), yet it's okay for there to be a generalized view of women floating around in porn. I never understood why men get mad at me for talking about an industry that is built on generalizing, stereotyping, idealizing, and objectfying women al lthe while becrying how I am generalizing them. I guess it's okay to generalize women but it's not okay to do the same to men. People who are violent, will be attracted to violent media. The violent media does not take a completely harmless person and make them into something they are not. So if violent people are attracted to violent media, then someone who was completely harmless wouldn't even be looking at violent media to begin with right? If a man is attracted to porn that refers to women in aggresive names, treats her aggresively, or is about breast implanted school girls, what does that say about the man? My issue with her, is her generalizing and seeming to put these complete falsehoods on people who watch pornography automatically subjugate women and treat them like inferior objects, that's just insanity. Is that exactly waht they are doing? Aren't men compartmentalizing which women fit into which catagory and treating them as he sees fit based on his needs? You get mad at me for my generalizations and then critize *me* for daring to question the generlizatiosn men buy into in the porn industry about women. Now if it was just about "Well women are shown to be inferior in porn and I don't like it" that's one thing, but that's but a fraction of what she's saying. Women in porn is no worse than women on television, who make all women look stupid on shows like Rock of Love and The Bachelor. Funny how you say that these shows make all women look stupid but made no mention of how they make men look.
marsle85 Posted March 15, 2010 Posted March 15, 2010 (edited) http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Media_violence_research Media violence researcher Rowell Huesmann has said: "Serious aggressive behavior only occurs when there is a convergence of multiple predisposing and precipitating factors".[2][3] Many other explanations of aggressive behavior exist; for example, some researchers have suggested that the pathway to aggression is largely biological/genetic (see the work of Hare, 1993, Larsson, Andershed, & Lichtenstein, In Press, among others), and others have suggested that aggression can be explained by principles of evolutionary psychology. [4]. "Although organizations such as the American Academy of Pediatrics and the American Psychological Association have suggested that thousands (3500 according to the AAP) of studies have been conducted confirming this link, others have argued that this information is incorrect. Rather, only about two hundred studies (confirmed by meta-analyses such as Paik and Comstock, 1994) have been conducted in peer-reviewed scientific journals on television, movie, music and video game violence effects. Critics argue that about half find some link between media and subsequent aggression (but not violent crime), whereas the other half do not find a link between consuming violent media and subsequent aggression of any kind.[5]" http://www.media-awareness.ca/english/issues/violence/effects_media_violence.cfm "Whether or not exposure to media violence causes increased levels of aggression and violence in young people is the perennial question of media effects research. Some experts, like University of Michigan professor L. Rowell Huesmann, argue that fifty years of evidence show "that exposure to media violence causes children to behave more aggressively and affects them as adults years later." Others, like Jonathan Freedman of the University of Toronto, maintain that "the scientific evidence simply does not show that watching violence either produces violence in people, or desensitizes them to it." It's by no means believed to cause violence across the board either. Confirmation bias is present in many, many studies. There are studies that say just about anything, usually influenced by the outcome they hope to get. One who is predisposed to violence will be drawn towards violent media. Violent media doesn't create violence on it's own, yes it may impact someone who's already that way, but it won't take a "normal" person and make them into something they are not. The problem is that you retrieved your references from wikipedia, and mine are peer-reviewed sources from renown scientific journals. I am hesitant to take your information as seriously. Not to mention our studies are likely to be measuring two different variations of aggression. "Serious aggressive behavior only occurs when there is a convergence of multiple predisposing and precipitating factors".[2][3]This is absolutely true. Media can be one of these factors. Don't misinterpret me, I'm not saying media "turns" you into someone you're "not," but it -does- have an effect. You're not ignorant enough to say our environment doesn't effect our behavior, are you? Your body releases hormones when being exposed to different situations. Something stimulating? Adrenaline/Noradrenaline is pumped into your body. In turn your heart rate and blood pressure increase. It makes absolute sense. By assuming we aren't affected by what is around us/media- you make us out to be robots, when in reality our wellbeing and mindset are atleast temporarily effected. Nonetheless, I've ready your website and I'm curious whether you have? Furthermore- quotes from your very own article: In 1999, Professors Joanne Cantor and K. Harrison studied 138 university students, and found that memories of frightening media images continued to disturb a significant number of participants years later. Over 90 per cent reported they continued to experience fright effects from images they viewed as children, ranging from sleep disturbances to steadfast avoidance of certain situations. Half watched a violent episode of the cartoon Woody Woodpecker, and the other 12 watched the non-violent cartoon The Little Red Hen. During play afterwards, the researchers observed that the children who watched the violent cartoon were much more likely to hit other children and break toys. A study conducted by the Kaiser Family Foundation in 2003 found that nearly half (47 per cent) of parents with children between the ages of 4 and 6 report that their children have imitated aggressive behaviours from TV. In 2001, they reported that children and young people who play violent video games, even for short periods, are more likely to behave aggressively in the real world; and that both aggressive and non-aggressive children are negatively affected by playing. Lefkowitz interviewed a group of eight-year-olds and found that the boys who watched more violent TV were more likely to act aggressively in the real world. When he interviewed the same boys ten years later, he found that the more violence a boy watched at eight, the more aggressively he would act at age eighteen. George Gerbner has conducted the longest running study of television violence. His seminal research suggests that heavy TV viewers tend to perceive the world in ways that are consistent with the images on TV. As viewers’ perceptions of the world come to conform with the depictions they see on TV, they become more passive, more anxious, and more fearful. Gerbner calls this the "Mean World Syndrome." There are plenty more where this came from. I hardly would call these results "inconclusive". Edited March 15, 2010 by marsle85
A O Posted March 15, 2010 Posted March 15, 2010 There are so many guys out there saying they love and respect their woman or women in general but then turn around and use other women as a means to an end for his self-satisfaction. And there's an equal amount of women looking and dressing to impress, to seek or enjoy attention/satisfaction from those other than their SO. To some men, they'll find this behavior disrespectful and lacking in love. But to most people, men and women, they'll see "all" these behaviors as minor problems, if a problem at all. Alot of guys get pissed off at me for generalization or even have the gaul to tell me I am degrading men by my comments and yet they fail to ever consider the industry they support by watching and support by defending generalize and objectify women. People rarely listen to those who put them down, whether its an in-your-face put down or by inference! You're just suppose to follow him blindly even though he is showing you that he can easily toggle betwen what roles he thinks what women should play. Its up to you, me, everyone to determine the role they wish to play in a relationship. No one needs to be a follower, a victim, unless they choose to be, in which case the main problem here isn't this issue, or any issue for that matter - the problem is with the person themself! .
marsle85 Posted March 17, 2010 Posted March 17, 2010 Someone writing a paper is not anything close than blind-peer-reviewed articles that are published in scientific journals. Anyone can write a paper. They are not the same, and your sources are not completely credible. Very well, another time.
Recommended Posts