question for guys: porn and relationships

[Jersey Shortie]

I love when people say they want a thread to die but not before they chime in and add to their two cents on it, adding to the very thread they want to die. Oh the irony. If you don't like the topic discussion, don't read it and don't respond. It's just that simple folks.

 

Now, you don't respect men anyway so your point is little more than another veiled attempt to kick men up the gangulies. Other than that, respect yourself first and foremost, control your own destiny, have faith in your own ability to deal with whatever life throws at you and most importantly, stop blaming everyone or everything else for what befalls you.

 

That's leadership, that's accountability.

 

You are ridiculous. I don't want to kick men up the gangulies. I just wish men would *try* to have better relationships with women and respect them instead of saying "oh well, I felt it in my penis, so it's okay to do x,y and z".

 

And I will admit, I use to respect men alot more then I do now. However, I still work on hoping to regain the respect I once had for men. Not an easy task at all.

 

But I will ask again since you decided to ignore the question and talk around it. How do men expect women to respect them if they don't respect women?

 

As for leadership and accountbility, I think I bring about some thought provoking discussion. The fact is that too many people rather personally attack me and give me advice then directly address the comments I've put out there.

 

 

For someone to get that worked up about porn, whether for it or against it, suggests that the person needs psychological help.

 

Considering the amount of men, you included, that at one point have gotten worked up on the subject, that's saying alot Barky.

[Des]

This thread needs to die.

 

It's gone totally off topic from my original questions, and been taken over by the same predictable responses/posters.

 

I think you knew well this would snowball... your questions, realize it or not, were very much asking for healthy debate. No one is making you follow this thread.

 

She already knows that but do others know....do others know that there is a process, that it is an option, that when all is said and done - you don't have to put up with anything that you find uncomfortable. Believe you me JS, understanding this, knowing this is a lot more valuable than this subject.

 

*ahem*

 

Wasn't that your bottom line last time around?

 

If you just say "no", it's not your problem, therefor the issues at hand somehow do not exist, and are not worth discussion! Let's not ask why most men would rather defend their porn... infact, let's never even toy with the idea of any negativity associated with pornography. Talking is pointless right? It would get us nowhere to publicly question this mainstream notion of porn and it's casual use. To give an answer to all of these constantly ignored questions wouldn't bring a soul to an epiphany, or maybe cause one to rethink... Let's just shut up, and deal with it. Like that's not what we all do already, deal with it.

 

...and what do I see? More normalization of porn, more confusion and frustration between young men and women don't know how to treat each other with decency or respect, more young women "getting used to it" giving in against their wishes, a staggering rate of divorce, adultery, and habitual porn use of course, becoming something that apparently would be hard for this generation to fathom not being "normal male behavior".

 

[Barky]

I just wish men would *try* to have better relationships with women and respect them instead of saying "oh well, I felt it in my penis, so it's okay to do x,y and z".

 

Yeah that's not going to happen.

 

And I will admit, I use to respect men alot more then I do now. However, I still work on hoping to regain the respect I once had for men. Not an easy task at all.

 

Can't say we men particularly care whether you respect us or not.

 

How do men expect women to respect them if they don't respect women?

 

See previous answer.

 

As for leadership and accountbility, I think I bring about some thought provoking discussion.

 

If you consider "I don't like it, therefore it's bad" to be thought-provoking discussion.

 

 

 

 

Considering the amount of men, you included, that at one point have gotten worked up on the subject, that's saying alot Barky.

[Barky]

I've dated men that viewed porn. I've heard all the justifications and excuses and commentary about why I'm "wrong" in the process of men justifying their pornography. Most men view porn. I never denied that. Do I think that means it's okay and right? No.

 

Do you think we care what you think about our porn viewing? No.

 

It's lowered both my trust and respect for men many a time. There was a time when I had alot of trust and respect for men. But after seeing how men like to see women treated, I question what men are about today.

 

Yeah, um, can't say we really care what you think about "men" today.

 

How do men expet women to respect them if they don't respect women?

 

Yeah we really don't care whether you respect us or not.

 

How do men expect women to respect them if they indulge in a medium that more times then not, is demeaning to women?

 

See previous answer.

 

Where does a man stand when he claims he respects women but when he shuts the door at night, he is helping to support an industry that doesn't?

 

Most people respect individuals, not an entire gender.

 

When I first started learning that men watched porn I did alot to try and understand. I tried really hard. I tried to give men the benefit of the doubt. I looked at porn myself trying to understand. And the things I saw were pretty loathesome and disparaging.

 

Not everybody's into S&M Most porn is just people having sex. I don't know what kind of porn you've been watchin'.

 

There is NOTHING women have that equals the treatment of men in what men have with porngraphy. I read articles.

 

I think your endless whining about porn comes pretty close.

 

I asked questions. I spoke with both men and women. And after all that, the only thing that makes sense is that the most important thing to men is their ability to nut off over their ability to treat women as human beings.

 

Now you're beginning to understand

 

The only think that makes sense is tha tmen feel they need and deserve an outlet that allows them to treat women as nothing more then objects all the while expecting that women still maintain respect for them and an understanding that their desires as men should come at the price of a woman's self respect.

 

You're overthinking. Men like to have sex and watch sex. End of discussion.

 

If women had an industry .... that often called men names, was about using them and tossing them into the gutter after using him for his money to buy her pretty things,

 

There is one, it's called "marriage."

 

As that's your opinion. And yes, I think many men do a certain amount of lying to themselves about their dependency on pornography. You can see it in the lengths go men to defend it here alone.

 

I love porn, no doubt. Watch it almost every day. The thing I'm worried about is not my "dependence" on it but that a band of conservatives could get together and outlaw it like they outlawed booze in the US in the early part of the 20th century.

 

In short: women who hate porn are power-mongers. They realize that when a dude is home having fun watching beautiful girls get it on, they're not out "courting" women. In classic dating, women had most of the power. In contemporary dating, with the ability for men to get off without having to court or marry means that women's power is subsiding.

 

Just as with any human or animal interaction, this discussion is about power, nothing more and nothing less.

 

 

There is no doubt that men watch porn to varying degrees. It does not change the fact that they still support an industry that is ultimately pretty disparaging towards women, filled with stereotypes and pretty much treats women like they are nothing. Should women not question how men really feel about women considering the things that make men happy enough to get off that are often showcased in porn? Considering the medium is one that certainly the majority of men would NEVER want to see their own daughters in?

 

 

 

It happens everyday and we see the reprocussions of that everyday. It's a slow and insideous change that I think is happening more and more with the advent of the internet. Relationships between men and women, even sexuality, is not at a better place with the advent of internet porn. Men were able to survive without internet porn for generations. All the sudden they can't?

 

 

 

Exactly, an unlimited supply that ends up directly in the home where one don't even have to directly pay for it or go out and suffer any kind of public awareness to get it. Those are breeding grounds for a host of issues.

 

 

 

How many parents do you think have an honest talk to their children about pornography? How many fathers do you think sit down with their sons and actually say "women aren't toys"? Compared to men that oggle other women infront of their own wives or sons or daughters or nudge their son and give a wink wink about the hot waitress? How many mothers do you think sit down and have those conversations as well? How many young boys do you think are going to have the worldly mind to look at porn and say that women aren't toys when that's exactly the world they are being presented with? When they see grown adult males treat women just like that? Please be realistic.

 

If women aren't toys, then why do so many grown men take pleasure in projecting them that way in porn movies and using it to their advantage? Apparently, for many men, even men that are fathers, brothers and husbands, women are just that. Toys there to indulge his fantasy. That's the message. Men want women to be toys there to indulge his fantasy. Nothing more. And that is why so many men buy into and indugle in porn themselves. And why so many turn back to it on regular basis. And yet men seem to think that this shouldn't bother women? That the message is that women are worthless beyong their ability to spread their legs but women should think that men really do respect and care for them? Why is that? Why in the heck do you think women should feel that men respect them if the one medium alot of men covet is a medium that is about dehumanizing anything about women?

 

They rather sit infront of their computers with their pants around their legs supporting an industry that gives just the message you claim should be debunked. Wouldn't the greatest debunker of such a message be to not indulge in it at all? Do I think men are capable of handling the media overload they get from porn ? I really don't. And that isn't a put down. I do not think people are designed to handle the media overload we have today. And I think men indulge in their weakness too much instead of being strong for the sake of their relationships with the women in their lives.It's like you guys want to live two lives. You want to be able to demean women on one hand, look at them as objects and support an industry that trats them thus, while still hoping to have the respect and understanding of the very gender you want to demean on the side. Why is that?

 

 

 

If there wasn't a market for it, then there wouldn't be "plenty" of things you find disturbing. Clearly there is enough of a market for it.

 

 

 

 

I'm not sure what you are asking me. If a man is choosing to look at porn, he is choosing to look at porn. I can't say that I think it's okay for a single man to view porn over one in a relationship because I disagree with the way porn in general depicts and showcases women. If you are single or in a relationship, either way, you are choosing porn over sex.

 

Real sex is obviously any interaction between real people.

 

 

 

Which aspects of porn are not degrading?

 

How much of porn do you think is degrading compared to how much of it isn't?

 

 

 

 

That's of course your choice, and hers.

 

 

 

 

How many men do you think watch what you describe as vanilla porn compared to how many men watch hardcore porn?

 

How many men do you think find porn demeaning to women but enjoy it anyway? I already have my ideas on this as I am sure you do too.

 

If you want porn that you describe as "vanilla", it still puts women into a narrowly defined role.

 

 

 

 

Sometimes that's true. Sometimes it's not.

 

 

 

 

So then why do men get off to a medium that they know is filled with women with unhealthy self esteems?

 

What does that say about men that are willing to exploit women that are in vunerable positions? What should a woman think of a man, her husband or boyfriend, that is more then happy to take advantage of women in such positions? It's easy to pray on the weak I guess. But why do men think that this should make them more attractive to a real woman who sees him taking advantage of an industry that is about the exploitation of vunerable women?

 

And maybe some women that practice causual sex don't have healthy self esteem. But either do some men. Men look for validation through sex just as much, if not more, then women do. Even if men can walk away more easily in some cases. they seek out a validation that speaks to their own level of self esteem. And men that have to keep seeking out a new thrill, or new woman, do so because they are not content with themselves as a man and feel they need to re-live the high that get from sex with a new challenge. That's not confidence either.

 

 

 

 

You're allowed to think what you want. i have no issue with that. I do not agree but if you feel it atakes away from a woman's feminity, so be it. Funny enough, I also think porn takes away from real feminity. So while men seek it out and lamenate the wonderfulness of porn, it's such a freakshow, that it really does alot to dim real feminity and a woman's individual sexuality.

 

 

 

I thought I DID just point it out.

 

 

 

 

Important aspects to consider.

 

 

 

 

That's because men are not incharge of their own actions. And because men make women accounable for what men choose not to be. And yet, you all want to be the big strong leaders. You just don't actually want to get your hands dirty doing the hard work that entitles. So you leave all the reasons why you don't do something, or actually be strong men, by justifying it by putting the responsiblity on women's shoulders. Totally wrong and unfair. But I've seen this mentality ALOT from men. Men want to be the leaders but you guys don't want to make the hard choices it takes to actually have women look to you with respect at your leadership skills.

 

 

 

 

Those are names women call men. Women don't want to interact with men they deem losers, creeps and jerks. Men also have names for women that they don't interact with. What I am talking about is men put women in little boxes and take them out to play when it suits them. Wife/gf for when he wants some tlc. porn for when he wants to justify his desire for anything other then the partner he claims he cares so much for. different situation you are talking about.

 

 

 

 

Yes, women can totally have casual sex and not be messed up for it. they also can be used by men too. Both situations happen! It certainly is up to women to decide what they want! I never argued otherwise. And apparently, by your previous comments, it's also up to women to be in charge of man's choices too. Since men can not hold themselves accounable for how they treat women. Its up to women to be the moral gate keepers of the world while men keep on jusifying all their behavior on their hormones.

 

 

 

Maybe. maybe not. Porn certainly hasn't given men a better perspective on women. Not even a healthy one at that. You don't have a medium like porn that a man view reuglarly and can't expect the male population to not be unaffected by what they see in it. That's comletely illogical. I think that porn has changed our views on sex and how men see women and treat them.

 

 

 

Sure they are. look at all the porn threads and how quick men are to justfy porn use, defend it all the basis that they are "men". Look at how many men define the meaning of being man by who looks at porn and who doesn't.

 

Keep watching the porn guys! That's the way to get women to respect you. The idea of you pathetically sitting infront of your computer with your dress socks on and your pants around your ankles while you dream about banging the babysitter. That's the kind of women all women want! What a joke. You guys defend porn and it's make a joke out of men jsut as much as it's make a profit off of degrading women.

[Jersey Shortie]

In short: women who hate porn are power-mongers. They realize that when a dude is home having fun watching beautiful girls get it on, they're not out "courting" women. In classic dating, women had most of the power. In contemporary dating, with the ability for men to get off without having to court or marry means that women's power is subsiding.

I think that's the best place for you. Sitting at home watching women have sex instead of going out and inflicting yuorself on women is a great way to spend your time. Not because I care about how you spend your time but because not interacting with real women is sincerely the best place for you.

[shadowplay]

J_S, with all due respect, get a life.

[Barky]

J_S, with all due respect, get a life.

 

"She" is a troll, nothing more. But I like to talk about porn so I respond. Plus, few things in life give me more pleasure than shooting down inane arguments, and her posts offer a plethora of those.

[Jersey Shortie]

Shadowplay, if you don't want to topic about the subject here's a little tip for you...don't talk about the subject. It's *just* that simple. If I want to talk about it, what's it to you?

[Jaytb]

you know, Jersey is right about porn abusing women, that's why I switched to lesbian porn (and erotic fiction, lol)

[LucreziaBorgia]

I tried to incorporate some porn into things a couple of weeks ago, and my guy got pretty offended. He said (in a nutshell) 'porn has no place in the bedroom' and you know what? In our relationship, he is absolutely correct. Full attention on each other. He has a thing about wanting to please a woman fully, and wanting to do things on his own without any input from stuff like porn and I can't say I have any complaints. He has a quaint view on a variety of things (including what makes a woman attractive), and not only is it refreshing, but it is certainly welcome to me.

[GorillaTheater]

I tried to incorporate some porn into things a couple of weeks ago, and my guy got pretty offended. He said (in a nutshell) 'porn has no place in the bedroom' and you know what? In our relationship, he is absolutely correct. Full attention on each other. He has a thing about wanting to please a woman fully, and wanting to do things on his own without any input from stuff like porn and I can't say I have any complaints. He has a quaint view on a variety of things (including what makes a woman attractive), and not only is it refreshing, but it is certainly welcome to me.

 

I tend to agree with your guy on this one. Porn distracts from my ability to focus 100% of my sexuality on my wife, which I want to do and which I think is the most satisfying part about sex.

 

I was never much into porn, although it was enjoyable enough, I suppose. My preference was for amateur stuff, husbands and wives; stuff I could identify with. When I went through a bout of depression some time ago, the AD meds effected my sex drive, I'd sometimes watch porn to help get in the mood. Now, getting in the mood requires little or no effort on my part.

 

And yes, this thread has taken the same predictable turns with the same predictable players and "arguments".

[meerkat stew]

His reaction to your attempts to spice things up were some abrupt, but agree with you, unless something is broken in the bedroom, stay away from the aids.

 

For instance, if things are going well, I will keep the livestock out in the barn and not bring them in and doll them up with makeup and lingerie. I also keep the wiring for all the sex swings put away in a box with the Mexican wrestling luchadore outfits and any gas operated toys. I -will- put out the riding crop and the car antenna in a bedroom corner to see if she gravitates to them naturally. You can tell tons about an SO based on whether they choose the riding crop or the car antenna, so some hinting at things is ok IMO

[Stockalone]

Apologies for the very late reply. I am spending less and less time on LS, and I never quite had enough time to respond to your post.

 

This will also be my last reply to your posts about porn. We are only going in circles, so there is really no point in exchanging point of views endlessly.

 

Nonetheless, I felt obligated to reply to our post since I previously asked some questions where you took the time to answer. So I returned the favour.

 

 

That's why I think most men have made themselves all too dependent on pornography. I never told a man he had to stop looking at it. He is an adult. I've had discussions about my opinions on it. It's lowered both my trust and respect for men many a time. There was a time when I had alot of trust and respect for men. But after seeing how men like to see women treated, I question what men are about today.

 

If something bothers me that much that trust and respect are jeopardized, I am not going to date women who feel differently about the topic. I still don't get it why you don't just avoid guys who disagree with you about porn.

 

Concentrate on men who agree with you. Obviously, your feelings about porn wouldn't change, but at least you wouldn't have to worry about your own husband/bf/guy you are dating.

 

 

How do men expet women to respect them if they don't respect women? How do men expect women to respect them if they indulge in a medium that more times then not, is demeaning to women? Where does a man stand when he claims he respects women but when he shuts the door at night, he is helping to support an industry that doesn't?

 

If your conclusion is that a man who watches porn disrespects every women on the planet by proxy, I can only tell you that I don't agree. That said, people certainly don't treat everyone with the same level of respect so you don't have to respect those men either.

 

I try to avoid people I don't respect, I suggest you do the same. IME, it usually keeps the frustration and disappointment away.

 

 

When I first started learning that men watched porn I did alot to try and understand. I tried really hard. I tried to give men the benefit of the doubt. I looked at porn myself trying to understand. And the things I saw were pretty loathesome and disparaging. But enough men like those loathseom and disparaging things that they are out there. Just type the word "porn" in and you can see some demeaning things.

 

I think that the porn industry produces a mainstream product, but more and more it also produces a myriad of niche products for all kinds of fetishes. So obviously, you'll find plenty of stuff that a lot of people will find disgusting, loathsome, demeaning, etc.

 

 

There is NOTHING women have that equals the treatment of men in what men have with porngraphy. I read articles. I asked questions. I spoke with both men and women. And after all that, the only thing that makes sense is that the most important thing to men is their ability to nut off over their ability to treat women as human beings. The only think that makes sense is tha tmen feel they need and deserve an outlet that allows them to treat women as nothing more then objects all the while expecting that women still maintain respect for them and an understanding that their desires as men should come at the price of a woman's self respect.

 

Most men like to be sexually dominant. I think that this, in part, has lead to an increase of (excessive) dominance that is exhibited even in mainstream porn these days. Also, since porn is basically a visual aid for masturbation, the woman's needs are not important in porn, which makes it seem as if men are only interested in using women as objects.

 

Masturbation and/or porn is not the same as sex for me.

 

 

If women had an industry that treated men such as porn treats women, I think men would be equally upset. If women had an industry that often called men names, was about using them and tossing them into the gutter after using him for his money to buy her pretty things, I think men would have a deeper understanding about the situations at hand and why it's so confusing and troublesome to women that wish for love and respect in their lives.

 

The thing is that IMO men separate porn and the women in their lives. But if you feel disrespected and unloved because of the porn use, that is a dilemma.

 

But once again, some men don't watch porn at all and some don't watch it while in a relationship. At least the guys who don't watch porn would make a good match for you.

 

The women in porn get money for their services, and they can choose to not do porn. Low self-esteem or not, they are willing participants. We are not talking about forced prostitution here.

 

A guy who gets used for his money and affection and is then called names, made fun off only to eventually get tossed aside gets nothing at all out of it. As you said, there is no exact equivalent because men and women are different.

 

 

There is no doubt that men watch porn to varying degrees. It does not change the fact that they still support an industry that is ultimately pretty disparaging towards women, filled with stereotypes and pretty much treats women like they are nothing. Should women not question how men really feel about women considering the things that make men happy enough to get off that are often showcased in porn? Considering the medium is one that certainly the majority of men would NEVER want to see their own daughters in?

 

A real life woman has feelings, and gets physical and emotional pleasure from sex. Now take away the emotions and feelings and take away her ability to get pleasure from sex (physically and mentally).

 

That is what is left in porn, a shell that is nothing but a tool, because there is no real woman involved in masturbation. You can't pleasure someone that isn't there and likewise, you can't get the same sensations/pleasure that you'd get from giving, making a woman you have sex with, feel good.

 

You'll say that the woman who does the porn movie is real, which is true. But the job for which she gets paid is to "become" that tool in the masturbation fantasy. That is like a character she portrays, it's not who she is as a real person. It's an illusion/mirage, not reality and also not necessarily something you'd do in real life.

 

And the reason men don't want their SO or family to do porn, is because we have a personal connection to the women in our life. We wouldn't believe the character, we'd connect it to the real person we know.

 

That is why sex and porn/masturbation are very different.

 

Wanting to understand why a man watches porn, or what he really thinks about women is an understandable wish. It is something you can find out if you talk to him and if he is honest. If you think a guy who watches porn is a weirdo, so be it. That is for you to decide.

 

 

It happens everyday and we see the reprocussions of that everyday. It's a slow and insideous change that I think is happening more and more with the advent of the internet. Relationships between men and women, even sexuality, is not at a better place with the advent of internet porn. Men were able to survive without internet porn for generations. All the sudden they can't?

 

I am sure they would survive, there was no internet porn (or porn in general) available when I was a teenager. I really think it has to do with convenience.

 

 

Exactly, an unlimited supply that ends up directly in the home where one don't even have to directly pay for it or go out and suffer any kind of public awareness to get it. Those are breeding grounds for a host of issues.

 

Pandora's box has already been opened. The internet itself as well as porn aren't going away.

 

 

How many parents do you think have an honest talk to their children about pornography? How many fathers do you think sit down with their sons and actually say "women aren't toys"? Compared to men that oggle other women infront of their own wives or sons or daughters or nudge their son and give a wink wink about the hot waitress? How many mothers do you think sit down and have those conversations as well? How many young boys do you think are going to have the worldly mind to look at porn and say that women aren't toys when that's exactly the world they are being presented with? When they see grown adult males treat women just like that? Please be realistic.

 

My father has never given me a nudge and wink wink about the hot waitress.

But he also has no advice about women in general. Nothing positive, nothing negative. I really don't think that ogling women and porn are his vice, he is far too busy being a heavy drinker.

 

My parents also told me nothing about the birds and the bees. But we do have mandatory sex ed in school that prepares you fairly well. Still, I do think parents can no longer take an ignorant position. What worked for my parents is no longer going to be enough. Parents have responsibilities and I believe that is one of them. Making sure that their kids don't get the wrong impression with all that the kids can find online.

 

 

If women aren't toys, then why do so many grown men take pleasure in projecting them that way in porn movies and using it to their advantage? Apparently, for many men, even men that are fathers, brothers and husbands, women are just that. Toys there to indulge his fantasy. That's the message. Men want women to be toys there to indulge his fantasy. Nothing more. And that is why so many men buy into and indugle in porn themselves. And why so many turn back to it on regular basis. And yet men seem to think that this shouldn't bother women? That the message is that women are worthless beyong their ability to spread their legs but women should think that men really do respect and care for them? Why is that? Why in the heck do you think women should feel that men respect them if the one medium alot of men covet is a medium that is about dehumanizing anything about women?

 

I can understand why women feel bothered by porn. And I certainly don’t think you are wrong for being against porn. But the message is not that women are only good for sex, at least I am confident that isn’t what most men think.

 

I am sure that porn is a way of living out a fantasy too, though you’d have to ask a man in your life what it is about the porn he watches that he likes and why he watches it.

 

Men do respect and care for women, but I don’t see how there is a way to prove this. The only thing a man can do is living his life in a way that he feels is respectful and caring towards the woman in his life. If that isn’t good enough, there is IME nothing he can do to change a woman’s mind.

 

If women don’t like that I watch porn when I am single, I can’t change that and I can also live with that. It’s their right to think whatever they want. I have no influence on how my actions are perceived.

 

 

They rather sit infront of their computers with their pants around their legs supporting an industry that gives just the message you claim should be debunked. Wouldn't the greatest debunker of such a message be to not indulge in it at all? Do I think men are capable of handling the media overload they get from porn ? I really don't. And that isn't a put down. I do not think people are designed to handle the media overload we have today. And I think men indulge in their weakness too much instead of being strong for the sake of their relationships with the women in their lives.It's like you guys want to live two lives. You want to be able to demean women on one hand, look at them as objects and support an industry that trats them thus, while still hoping to have the respect and understanding of the very gender you want to demean on the side. Why is that?

 

My point is that you can watch porn and be serious when you say that women aren’t toys. I’ve already tried to explain this. That sex and porn are different things. There is no real women when I masturbate. Masturbation and porn is all about me, I don’t understand how I can neglect the needs of a woman who doesn’t even exist.

 

However, I am sure that porn has had an impact on me, as well as on men as a gender. I doubt that men aren’t able to handle it though. I think that the vast majority of people are capable of separating between fiction and reality. People who play first-person shooter games aren’t all turning into crazy mass murderers.

 

Personally, I don’t expect the respect, nor do I need it, from an entire gender. I certainly would like the respect and understanding of the woman I would want to have a relationship with though. If my previous porn use while I was single prevents a relationship and/or makes it impossible for those women to respect and understand me, there is nothing I can do about it.

 

I don’t want to live two lives either. I lived my life the way I saw fit, it’s up to the woman to decide if she can accept that or not.

 

Am I willing to make compromises? Of course, but I can’t change the past. If a woman wants me to not watch porn while in a relationship with her, I don’t mind doing that. I do that anyway.

 

What I won’t do is apologize for the fact that I did watch porn. I also don’t think that by watching porn, I was trying to demean all women, including her.

 

 

If there wasn't a market for it, then there wouldn't be "plenty" of things you find disturbing. Clearly there is enough of a market for it.

 

Of course there is a market.

 

 

I'm not sure what you are asking me. If a man is choosing to look at porn, he is choosing to look at porn. I can't say that I think it's okay for a single man to view porn over one in a relationship because I disagree with the way porn in general depicts and showcases women. If you are single or in a relationship, either way, you are choosing porn over sex.

 

Real sex is obviously any interaction between real people.

 

When I watch porn, I am technically choosing porn over sex. But every time I masturbate (with or without porn), I choose masturbation over sex. So I am not sure what your point is.

 

Furthermore, I don’t even see it as a choice because sex isn’t an option. I am single, so there is no gf to have sex with. If anything, I am choosing masturbation (with or without porn) over having casual sex. And that is not a choice for me because I don’t consider casual sex as a valid option.

 

 

Which aspects of porn are not degrading?

 

The women in porn are adults who chose to take that job. If they are okay with exchanging sex for money, I don’t think that doing the same things they would do while having sex (where they don’t get paid) is degrading.

 

 

How much of porn do you think is degrading compared to how much of it isn't?

 

My personal opinion is that more porn than not includes parts that I would consider degrading. But what I consider degrading, others have no problem with.

 

However, I can’t give you a percentage because I don’t even know what and how much is out there.

 

 

How many men do you think watch what you describe as vanilla porn compared to how many men watch hardcore porn?

 

How many men do you think find porn demeaning to women but enjoy it anyway? I already have my ideas on this as I am sure you do too.

 

If you want porn that you describe as "vanilla", it still puts women into a narrowly defined role.

 

To be honest, I don’t think about that at all. I really don’t care what other guys do. And I am not responsible for their choices either.

 

However, my idea of “vanilla” porn, just like my vanilla sex in real life is certainly a minority view, based on the porn I have run across, as well as the threads I read on the sex forums here on LS.

 

And since we are talking about masturbation, a woman certainly has a narrowly defined role in that scenario.

 

 

So then why do men get off to a medium that they know is filled with women with unhealthy self esteems?

 

What does that say about men that are willing to exploit women that are in vunerable positions? What should a woman think of a man, her husband or boyfriend, that is more then happy to take advantage of women in such positions? It's easy to pray on the weak I guess. But why do men think that this should make them more attractive to a real woman who sees him taking advantage of an industry that is about the exploitation of vunerable women?

 

Men can often get sex without commitment from real women. I doubt that those men think that that women in porn have self-esteem issues.

 

 

And maybe some women that practice causual sex don't have healthy self esteem. But either do some men. Men look for validation through sex just as much, if not more, then women do. Even if men can walk away more easily in some cases. they seek out a validation that speaks to their own level of self esteem. And men that have to keep seeking out a new thrill, or new woman, do so because they are not content with themselves as a man and feel they need to re-live the high that get from sex with a new challenge. That's not confidence either.

 

I don’t care what drives those men, and I never said that those men have no issues. In most cases though, women validate those men through sex. They get their high because women allow them to get it.

 

 

I thought I DID just point it out.

 

We are probably talking past each other then, because I never understand what you intend with your posts.

 

 

That's because men are not incharge of their own actions. And because men make women accounable for what men choose not to be. And yet, you all want to be the big strong leaders. You just don't actually want to get your hands dirty doing the hard work that entitles. So you leave all the reasons why you don't do something, or actually be strong men, by justifying it by putting the responsiblity on women's shoulders. Totally wrong and unfair. But I've seen this mentality ALOT from men. Men want to be the leaders but you guys don't want to make the hard choices it takes to actually have women look to you with respect at your leadership skills.

 

You are complaining that the way men handle things, is broken.

 

The thing is, you can only lead as long as someone follows you. As long as women follow men who make bad choices, the women are to blame too. Who's the more foolish: The fool, or the fool who follows him?

 

If you want things to change, you need to convince men that the system is in fact broken. As long as men are being rewarded for supposedly bad behaviour (that they don’t even see as bad), nothing will change.

 

 

Those are names women call men. Women don't want to interact with men they deem losers, creeps and jerks. Men also have names for women that they don't interact with. What I am talking about is men put women in little boxes and take them out to play when it suits them. Wife/gf for when he wants some tlc. porn for when he wants to justify his desire for anything other then the partner he claims he cares so much for. different situation you are talking about.

 

In that case, you should want nothing to do with those men too, just like you want nothing to do with the losers, creeps and jerks.

 

 

Yes, women can totally have casual sex and not be messed up for it. they also can be used by men too. Both situations happen! It certainly is up to women to decide what they want! I never argued otherwise. And apparently, by your previous comments, it's also up to women to be in charge of man's choices too. Since men can not hold themselves accounable for how they treat women. Its up to women to be the moral gate keepers of the world while men keep on jusifying all their behavior on their hormones.

 

You are responsible for your own choices, as are men. That includes being responsible for how you react to something that isn’t in your best interest.

 

If someone treats you bad, you should make them stop or extricate yourself from the situation. That doesn’t give the other person a right to treat you bad, and it certainly doesn’t excuse their bad behaviour. They are still responsible for treating you bad, but you are the one who can enforce boundaries.

 

Think of bullies at school, they only respond to strength. Someone who gets bullied is still a victim, but resistance is IMO a far better option than suffering.

 

 

Maybe. maybe not. Porn certainly hasn't given men a better perspective on women. Not even a healthy one at that. You don't have a medium like porn that a man view reuglarly and can't expect the male population to not be unaffected by what they see in it. That's comletely illogical. I think that porn has changed our views on sex and how men see women and treat them.

 

Our views on sex have not been altered unilaterally by men. Many women weren’t happy with the way things were. That’s okay, I am fully in favour of people facilitating change if they believe the status quo is unfair.

 

What we see now is the result of both sexes approaching each other differently.

[ADF]

The porn threads have gotten me curious.

 

1. When you're in a serious, committed relationship do you continue to regularly view porn assuming that you're being satisfied sexually by your partner?

 

2. Does the frequency with which you view or whether you view it at all correspond to how strongly you feel about your partner? In other words, do you still look at porn when you're completely head over heels for a woman and getting regular sex with her?

 

3. Do you imagine having sex with your SO when looking at the porn?

 

My boyfriend told me that he hasn't been able to get off to porn since we started dating and has lost all interest in other women. I thought this was sweet and interesting, but it wouldn't have bothered me had he continued to view porn. I'm wondering how applicable this is to guys in general when they feel very strongly about a woman.

 

1) Yes. A desire to view porn and the quality of one's relationship with a partner are totally unrelated. The have nothing to do with each other. Many women cannot believe that, but it's true.

 

2) Yes, men who are head over heels in love are still interested in porn. As I said above, porn and relationships have nothing, nothing, NOTHING to do with one another. NOTHING.

 

3) Yes, sometimes men imagine having sex with their partners while viewing porn. They also sometimes imagine having sex with their partners while doing laundry, riding the bus, and walking the dog.

 

I'm sorry, but if your boyfriend has told you that since meeting you, he neither wants to watch porn nor has any attraction to other women, he is LYING. Big time.

[AAlike]

 

I'm sorry, but if your boyfriend has told you that since meeting you, he neither wants to watch porn nor has any attraction to other women, he is LYING. Big time.

 

well, depends on context and intent.

 

I had never been in a very serious relationship until I met my wife. I had the usual gamut of experiences with women - a few akward ONS's in college, and some FWB and six to twelve month monogamous relationships in my 20's, but had never been "blown away" so to speak. During that time I always "looked" - not actively looked of course, but in a subconscious way. and yes, a fair amount of my masturbatory activities still involved porn.

 

However, when I met my wife, my appetite for her was unlike any woman before. I basically thought about sex with her pretty much 24/7 for a good six months. when I was out, I didn't even notice other women, not even "out of the corner of my eye." It was like I was living in a vacuum - a damn good one! and I basically didn't masturbate at all - not "to her" nor to/with anyone else. It is possible that OP's BF is also in said stage.

 

Obviously, that has calmed down somewhat. I mean, I still have a pretty awesome sex life and all, but I no longer live in a bubble, and have gone back to reality, where seeing a pretty lady still appeals to me in the most generic of senses.

[LucreziaBorgia]

His reaction to your attempts to spice things up were some abrupt, but agree with you, unless something is broken in the bedroom, stay away from the aids.

 

We are still in the stage where we are getting to really know each other sexually so it is more of a 'hey, here is something I like' sort of thing rather than a spicing up thing. I just picked a really bad time to bring out the laptop. He wasn't abrupt so much as he was put off by it.

 

There isn't going to be any porn involved ever again, and that is a good thing - I like his view on things, and besides... porn is just something to speed up masturbation the way I see it. Rather not mix private playtime with together time. Works for me.

[Peter Attis]

I said this in the other thread, and I'll say it here: any man with some sense should immediately dump his girlfriend if she had such a problem with porn. She's clearly not woman enough to handle it and is nothing more than an insecure little girl, so you'd be better off without her.

[Peter Attis]

But seriously, I'd much rather have a girlfriend who was not so insecure that she had to be constantly reaffirmed of something most guys do, and had to be constantly reassured that it wasn't any sort of slight against her.

 

I mean, if she has THIS insecurity, what other insecurities does she have? It's better to get out of the relationship before they rear their ugly heads.

[marsle85]

I love porn. What's the big deal?

[Romance]

my boyfriend watches porn

who gives a ****. its porn. like..whatever.

[Jersey Shortie]

Most men like to be sexually dominant. I think that this, in part, has lead to an increase of (excessive) dominance that is exhibited even in mainstream porn these days.

 

So it’s okay to showcase women as objects because it’s what men like and need. That’s the core of your argument.

 

Also, since porn is basically a visual aid for masturbation, the woman's needs are not important in porn, which makes it seem as if men are only interested in using women as objects.

 

There is no “make it seem” about it. Men are not interested in women’s needs. They are interested in using them and tossing them and then expecting real women to not be confused with the mirrored of messages they send about how they think women deserve to be treated.

 

The thing is that IMO men separate porn and the women in their lives.

 

Totally! I said that before myself. Men peg women into little boxes and take them out to play when they feel like it. Porn comes out to play at times and then he takes his wife/gf out to play of her box for other times. Sometimes he wants to play with both together because after all, women are only there to be empty toys.

 

The women in porn get money for their services, and they can choose to not do porn. Low self-esteem or not, they are willing participants. We are not talking about forced prostitution here.

 

Never claimed that they didn’t get paid! Never said they weren’t willing participants. Does this make any of my points less true? Does this make porn any more less demeaning to women in general? Does that mean, if women willingly go into the business that it’s okay for husbands, fathers and boyfriend around the world to indulge in it? Not sure what point you are trying to make here because I never said it was forced.

 

A guy who gets used for his money and affection and is then called names, made fun off only to eventually get tossed aside gets nothing at all out of it. As you said, there is no exact equivalent because men and women are different.

 

Women aren’t sitting in-front of their computers and TVs for a billion dollars worth of watching men get used for his money and affection and being called names! That’s exactly my point. Women aren’t sitting there getting off on the debasement of the male gender and then turning around and proclaiming that they really do respect women and don’t see them as worthless toys. Men are everyday! And yet we don’t get any kind of male understanding or hope that you give a damn. Just “oh well men need to use women so shut up and just watch it with him and make sure to spread your legs because *this* makes him happy. Who cares what you need. You’re just a woman and you deserve to be smacked around and used to jerk off over”. You men are LUCKY that women aren’t sitting around getting off to your debasement. Men do this EVERYDAY. It hurts.

 

That is what is left in porn, a shell that is nothing but a tool, because there is no real woman involved in masturbation…..

You'll say that the woman who does the porn movie is real, which is true. But the job for which she gets paid is to "become" that tool in the masturbation fantasy. That is like a character she portrays, it's not who she is as a real person. It's an illusion/mirage, not reality and also not necessarily something you'd do in real life.

 

And you said a mouthful there. Men consider women shells to be used. Men buy into the fantasy everyday. You men are so lucky that women don’t have anything 1/10th comparable to treating men like they are empty shells for women to use and toss. You defend it on the basis of it being an illusion. But it is an illusion men buy in to such a degree that they gain physical pleasure from the illusion and idea of a woman being an empty “tool” for his masturbation. I’d like to see you sit there and defend and industry that treated men like that at about a billion dollars worth of money. Not ONE man would like it. Not one. Not one man would defend it. And yet, you except women to.

 

My father has never given me a nudge and wink wink about the hot waitress. But he also has no advice about women in general. Nothing positive, nothing negative. I really don't think that ogling women and porn are his vice, he is far too busy being a heavy drinker.

 

No offense but I didn’t ask you what your father did or didn’t do. It’s nice that you shared the information but you never answered my direct questions. I asked you how many parents do you think talk to their son’s and daughters about porn compared to how many sons at this moment are downloading porn where women are considering WORTHLESS. SHELLS. EMPTY.

 

I can understand why women feel bothered by porn. And I certainly don’t think you are wrong for being against porn. But the message is not that women are only good for sex, at least I am confident that isn’t what most men think.

 

This completely contradicts your previous comments about women being represented as “shells” in porn.

 

Men do respect and care for women, but I don’t see how there is a way to prove this. The only thing a man can do is living his life in a way that he feels is respectful and caring towards the woman in his life. If that isn’t good enough, there is IME nothing he can do to change a woman’s mind.

 

More honesty, it seems men respect and care for women to a certain point. But when it comes to sex, it’s okay for men to use women any way he deems okay. To treat her as she is worthless. To use and toss aside. I guess I question how much respect men really have when they can at face value pretend they respect the women in their lives put at night clothes the doors and support and industry that is about the debasement of the female gender and the sexual gratification of the male gender.

 

However, I am sure that porn has had an impact on me, as well as on men as a gender. I doubt that men aren’t able to handle it though. I think that the vast majority of people are capable of separating between fiction and reality. People who play first-person shooter games aren’t all turning into crazy mass murderers.

 

I have no doubt that people logically separate fiction from reality. However, the reason fiction/fantasy is so popular because it’s ability to dupe the brain into believing it on some level. That is why men are able to get excited to it. YOU believe the situation enough to get turned on.

 

We have seen an increase in violence and young people imitating things they see on TV or in video games. We’ve seen an increase in sexual relationships becoming more “pornified” and culture in general more open to pornography and encouraging men to spend more time with it and women spending more time trying to be like it.

 

It doesn’t have to be at the extreme you stated for it to have a negative affect. And you are naive to think that men have a handle on their porn use when people seem more likely to abuse any form of substance that they have easy access too. We aren’t a country that is fat just on food. Add in the fact how abundant porn is, how free and easy and anonymous is, and you have a breeding ground for something 10times more dangerous then food.

 

The women in porn are adults who chose to take that job. If they are okay with exchanging sex for money, I don’t think that doing the same things they would do while having sex (where they don’t get paid) is degrading.

 

Just because someone agrees or is paid to do something doesn’t mean it’s not degrading to them or to a general gender.

 

To be honest, I don’t think about that at all. I really don’t care what other guys do. And I am not responsible for their choices either.

 

I didn’t ask you to be responsible for their choices. It was a simple question that you side stepped by tossing out “I don’t care” . Instead of thinking about the question and answering it.

 

You are complaining that the way men handle things, is broken.

 

The thing is, you can only lead as long as someone follows you. As long as women follow men who make bad choices, the women are to blame too. Who's the more foolish: The fool, or the fool who follows him?

 

If you want things to change, you need to convince men that the system is in fact broken. As long as men are being rewarded for supposedly bad behaviour (that they don’t even see as bad), nothing will change.

 

I’m sorry but It’s not my responsibility to be his gate keeper. You seem to be blaming women for how men behave. Are men not able to behave without being lead around on a leash? Are men not responsible for their own choices? Do men need women to be their gate keepers? I would hope not. No woman wants a man that is that weak.

[Peter Attis]

I'm noticing the common theme around here is, "It is not my responsibility as a woman to reaffirm my man's insecurities, but it's his job as a man to reaffirm mine."

[Jersey Shortie]

I think that to an extent, it behoves both men and women to be sensitive to each other's insecurities and support the person you love, not critize them for having these insecurities. However, neither gender should live in the shadow of insecurities. It can be a fine line to deteremine what that means on an individual level.

[TheBigQuestion]

You should elaborate why it made you feel that way.

[Ninita]

Women control a lot of the porn industry, and do it by choice. It's not some type of sexual slavery or something.

 

Women controlling some of the industry (I doubt "a lot" is a correct estimation) doesn't mean porn isn't degrading to women anyway. Actually I don't think it has to be. I've watched quite a bit of porn in my life and some of it is really nice. Why is it though that a lot of the stuff is all so disgusting and violent? i'd say anyone, girl or guy, watching porn is not necessarily objectifying women (and yes women can objectify women too, however weird that sounds), it's just normal to have sexual desires, and it can be that men in general need more sex, for whatever reason (nature or nurture, who knows) and so want to watch porn (because I must admit that it's nice when you feel horny, I can totally see the point of it.). But why do guys want to watch stuff where women look so humiliated? I think that's where the problem is, not in porn itself. I'd think it's just for guys who are upset because they can't get a girlfriend in real life and so really hate women but if that's so there must be quite a bunch of these losers out there.