question for guys: porn and relationships

[Ruby Slippers]

I have a lot of thoughts about porn, but only a little bit of time on my lunch break to comment on the subject at the moment. I recently had my first sexual experience with a guy who I believe was at least slightly crippled by porn. I'm hesitant to write about this because I suspect he now reads this forum. But whatever. I'd say it to his face.

 

The first few times we had sex, I felt almost no connection with him; hence, I thought the sex was pretty bad -- mediocre at best. And the reason I felt no connection with him is that I felt he was basically using my body like you would a blowup doll. It wasn't about giving or receiving pleasure -- it was just about getting off. And this was something I had never experienced before. Really unsettling.

 

We talked about this, and he told me he had thought about it and realized that his reliance on porn and not having had sex in a while was likely a big contributor to the problem. He went into some detail, and while I very much appreciated his honesty, the reality of what he was saying and the way it aligned with our first few sexual experiences absolutely chilled me.

 

This guy claimed to be very into me, and his behavior in general supported that, but one of the key factors in me feeling the chemistry and connection was weak was his approach to sex. Now, maybe that's just the way he is. But I suspect that his porn habit had a negative impact on his performance, in the very least.

 

So, he possibly fumbled a chance at a real relationship because of his porn use and associated sexual issues. I find that really, really sad, and see this kind of situation as part of a disturbing social trend.

[Jersey Shortie]

Ruby, I have also had that kind of experience. And not just once. But I doubt most of the guys here really want to believe the reality of what you posted happening more often, to more men. They want to believe that it's a lark, the expection, not the norm. Good sex, like you said about receiving and giving pleasure is now about how many times the girl lets you stick it up her butt or ejaculate on her face.

 

The idea of women as blow up dolls during sex, I think, is being normalized. I think even girls that are brought up in a heavily idealized pornified world begin to think good sex is when the man treats them like a blow up doll and not a real person. Hence part of the reason we see such a deficit in young girls and their confidence. If their own fathers don't even respect women on a general level, how can they expect the boys they date will.

[You'reasian]

Ruby, I have also had that kind of experience. And not just once. But I doubt most of the guys here really want to believe the reality of what you posted happening more often, to more men. They want to believe that it's a lark, the expection, not the norm. Good sex, like you said about receiving and giving pleasure is now about how many times the girl lets you stick it up her butt or ejaculate on her face.

 

The idea of women as blow up dolls during sex, I think, is being normalized. I think even girls that are brought up in a heavily idealized pornified world begin to think good sex is when the man treats them like a blow up doll and not a real person. Hence part of the reason we see such a deficit in young girls and their confidence. If their own fathers don't even respect women on a general level, how can they expect the boys they date will.

 

 

Which would you prefer:

 

A guy who wants to do you 2-3 times a day. He has looked at porn, but by keeping up, his stash collects dust. He might look at it - maybe with the same frequency as you might pull out the vibe. If you start pulling away, he may be more tempted to pull out the porn.

 

or

 

A guy who only wants it 2-3 times a week at most. He is staunchly against porn, for religious and moral reasons. Masterbation is a sin too. Likewise, he believes that every man should be the head of the household - in the Biblical sense.

[sumdude]

I agree that there may be some affect as you describe. It depends on the individual. Some people can drink whiskey and remain relatively in control and generally happy. Some turn into aggressive raging a-holes after a couple swigs.

 

Likewise some can view porn and separate it from reality. Others may not. Then again some people are just selfish lovers in the first place.

 

As far as particular sexual practices? Different strokes for different folks. Just because you may not like it or find is somehow offensive doesn't mean everyone else does.

[Jersey Shortie]

Okay, so you don't tell them that they can't watch porn.

 

But you do talk about porn, right? I mean, you keep telling men on LS that watching porn means they aren't real men. And this topic is obviously important to you. Don't you have the same conversation with the men in your life?

 

I hope they don't get a free pass from you.

I never said the men on LS weren't real men. I do think porn takes away from masculinity. There is a big difference between those two statements. Please don't confuse the two and mesh meanings. And yes, I've had these conversations with the men in my life about porn. I let my feelings on it be known. I don't think of it it terms of "giving them a free pass". That would indicate that *I* say they *can* or *can not* view it. And that's not what the situation is about. I NEVER dictated what a grown man could or couldn't do. I also never hid the fact that the industry, and how men that claim they love and respect women, use it.

 

I agree with you that some men (though I don't know what percentage) not only view it when their partner isn't available.

 

That is a start because most guys don't even want to admit that much.

 

But what groups are you talking about here when you say they choose porn over real sex? Only men who are in relationships, only single men, or both?

 

Both.

 

Should single men hire an escort or would it be better for them to look for women with low self esteem to have a ONS or FWB with?

 

What, because women only with low self esteem have ONS or FWB?

 

As I said before, I don't have all the answers and I certainly don't know what to tell you here. But it doesn't change my view points and comments on pornography.

 

Would such real sex be more acceptable and more healthy than watching porn in your opinion?

 

Not comparable situations. My comments on porn stand. I do not think porn is healthy. I don't think it's any more healthy then going to an escort or using women with poor self esteem. But I digress, are they not already using women with porn self esteem when they turn to porn?

 

Fair enough. But if you want to use the an-eye-for-an-eye strategy, women these days aren't always commanding respect either.

 

I never said they were. But what does that have to do with the topic at hand? Can you address the comment directy without your eye for an eye stragergy yourself? Why must we address my comment that these are the things that make women respect men less by throwing in "yeah but men respect women less too !" Why can't we honestly address the comment I brought up in a direct fashion?

 

"Us" vs. "them" is not going to make things better, no matter what side you are on.

 

Then what do you suggest happen? Because it does infact seem like men have picked their side and rather stand by their porn use then the real woman in their life.

 

More and more, I get the impression that many women want to tell men what it takes to be a man they can respect. That's okay, but don't expect to get what you ask for.

 

Again, what does this have to do with m ycomment before? You are talking all around the intial comment you qouted me saying. You don't directly want to address the comment itself. This does nothing to open and improve the conversation.

 

 

Because women also have to accept that men will tell them what it takes to be a woman they can respect. And women rarely like that, why would men be okay with it then? Not everything is a double standard that benefits men.

 

Again, that is fine but this has NOTHING to do with addressing what I previously said. This is more of that tit for tat thing, where we can't discuss double standard without someone saying "but they do it too!" And that never leads anywhere useful because we get stuck in the pattern you descrived above about going back and forth instead of taking the time to address something without having to feel like you need to equal it up.

 

No one here said everything was a double standard that benefited men. But again, why are you so unable to directly address my comment instead of talking all around it? If you want to discuss things women do that men don't respect, please do. Start a new thread to do it. And directly address the subject and comment that stands in relation to this topic in this thread.

[Jersey Shortie]

Which would you prefer:

 

A guy who wants to do you 2-3 times a day. He has looked at porn, but by keeping up, his stash collects dust. He might look at it - maybe with the same frequency as you might pull out the vibe. If you start pulling away, he may be more tempted to pull out the porn.

 

or

 

A guy who only wants it 2-3 times a week at most. He is staunchly against porn, for religious and moral reasons. Masterbation is a sin too. Likewise, he believes that every man should be the head of the household - in the Biblical sense.

 

Is this where I am suppose to say guy number one because made guy number two so black and white and unrealistic to reality?

 

Not all men that are religious are controling and asexual. Not all men that don't view porn are religious or not sexual.

 

 

 

 

I agree that there may be some affect as you describe. It depends on the individual. Some people can drink whiskey and remain relatively in control and generally happy. Some turn into aggressive raging a-holes after a couple swigs.

 

Likewise some can view porn and separate it from reality. Others may not. Then again some people are just selfish lovers in the first place.

 

As far as particular sexual practices? Different strokes for different folks. Just because you may not like it or find is somehow offensive doesn't mean everyone else does.

 

And others can drink whiskey and be alcholics but still maintain "normal" functioning lives. People can be very good about hiding the darker parts of themselves. It isn't always one way or the other. The whole reason porn is so successful is because it gets men to buy into it and buy into the fantasy of what is being repersented. So much so, that men phsyically and emotionally respond to it in such a postive manner they keep returning to it.

 

Yes, different strokes for different folks. It doesn't take away fro mthe fact that women are objectified in porn and men encourage the objectification by their indulgence in porn, and their possible suggestions in the bedroom to make their women more porn-like.

[You'reasian]

The whole reason porn is so successful is because it gets men to buy into it and buy into the fantasy of what is being repersented. So much so, that men phsyically and emotionally respond to it in such a postive manner they keep returning to it.

 

Yes, different strokes for different folks. It doesn't take away fro mthe fact that women are objectified in porn and men encourage the objectification by their indulgence in porn, and their possible suggestions in the bedroom to make their women more porn-like.

 

and you never address that women love porn too - even female members on this board like it like men do, but you deny it lol

[A O]

So, he possibly fumbled a chance at a real relationship because of his porn use and associated sexual issues. I find that really, really sad, and see this kind of situation as part of a disturbing social trend.

No, what really would have been said is if you'd put up with it. You discovered a behavior that didn't appeal to you, you discussed the fact and then did something about it. That is the correct process, a process that many people undertake pertaining to all sorts of matters, all the time. Those that fail to undertake this process tend to have issues other than the specific one at hand.

 

Point being, its rarely, if ever mentioned, in this topic, the power a partner or potential partner has in determining what will be acceptable to them. Its almost a given that this person will be aggrieved, put-upon, almost victimized. It need not be the case and you're prime evidence of this.

 

 

 

.

[Jersey Shortie]

AO, she already knows she delt with it correctly. Why do you want to gloss over her main point? Which was a clear indicator of a social trend towards men not having a clue how to treat women sexually. Or rather treating them as they see in the "movies"

 

and you never address that women love porn too - even female members on this board like it like men do, but you deny it lol

 

So completely wrong. I NEVER denied it. You always love to make this point. And as I have said to you time and time again, I KNOW there are women that enjoy porn. Not to the level and quantity that men do. I also do not think women. Women's needs and desires do not drive the industry. Men's do. Period. Women don't want to see men humilated at the level men seem to like seeing women humilated.

[A O]

AO, she already knows she delt with it correctly. Why do you want to gloss over her main point?

She already knows that but do others know....do others know that there is a process, that it is an option, that when all is said and done - you don't have to put up with anything that you find uncomfortable. Believe you me JS, understanding this, knowing this is a lot more valuable than this subject.

 

Which was a clear indicator of a social trend towards men not having a clue how to treat women sexually. Or rather treating them as they see in the "movies"

It doesn't matter, it simply doesn't matter how others treat you as long as you have an understanding of how you wish to be treated, and a process in place to instigate this understanding.

 

 

.

[AAlike]

I have a lot of thoughts about porn, but only a little bit of time on my lunch break to comment on the subject at the moment. I recently had my first sexual experience with a guy who I believe was at least slightly crippled by porn. I'm hesitant to write about this because I suspect he now reads this forum. But whatever. I'd say it to his face.

 

The first few times we had sex, I felt almost no connection with him; hence, I thought the sex was pretty bad -- mediocre at best. And the reason I felt no connection with him is that I felt he was basically using my body like you would a blowup doll. It wasn't about giving or receiving pleasure -- it was just about getting off. And this was something I had never experienced before. Really unsettling.

 

We talked about this, and he told me he had thought about it and realized that his reliance on porn and not having had sex in a while was likely a big contributor to the problem. He went into some detail, and while I very much appreciated his honesty, the reality of what he was saying and the way it aligned with our first few sexual experiences absolutely chilled me.

 

This guy claimed to be very into me, and his behavior in general supported that, but one of the key factors in me feeling the chemistry and connection was weak was his approach to sex. Now, maybe that's just the way he is. But I suspect that his porn habit had a negative impact on his performance, in the very least.

 

So, he possibly fumbled a chance at a real relationship because of his porn use and associated sexual issues. I find that really, really sad, and see this kind of situation as part of a disturbing social trend.

 

This is a very good post, Ruby.

 

To play devil's advocate, however - I highly doubt that consumption of porn made him a worse lover, per se - I'm guessing that he was probably never a good lover to begin with.

 

so again, it comes down to do you blame the porn, or do you blame the guy who chose to derive his approach to sex from porn?

 

One learns to be a good lover through experience. Something tells me that this guy most likely just lacked experience.

[You'reasian]

So completely wrong. I NEVER denied it. You always love to make this point. And as I have said to you time and time again, I KNOW there are women that enjoy porn. Not to the level and quantity that men do. I also do not think women. Women's needs and desires do not drive the industry. Men's do. Period. Women don't want to see men humilated at the level men seem to like seeing women humilated.

 

Alot of porn is not about humiliation. Its about sex (surprise). Seems like most adult stores have more things to sell to women than men and there's nothing wrong with that either.

[Stockalone]

I never said the men on LS weren't real men.

 

But that is exactly how I perceived your posts in previous threads about porn, as well as this one.

 

I'll try to keep in mind that this wasn't your intention.

 

 

And yes, I've had these conversations with the men in my life about porn. I let my feelings on it be known. I don't think of it it terms of "giving them a free pass". That would indicate that *I* say they *can* or *can not* view it. And that's not what the situation is about. I NEVER dictated what a grown man could or couldn't do. I also never hid the fact that the industry, and how men that claim they love and respect women, use it.

 

You have very clear views about porn use, but it's not a deal breaker for you? Why?

 

 

That is a start because most guys don't even want to admit that much.

 

I am sure there are some men who actually prefer that, to say they don't exist would be ludicrous. But they are certainly a minority IMO.

 

 

Both.

 

You may have a point when we are talking about men in relationships, but single men who don't even have an SO? How are they choosing porn over sex?

 

I can't speak for other men, but I decide to masturbate and then might choose to watch porn or not, not the other way around. And I am single. I have not the slightest idea how that can be seen as choosing porn over sex.

 

 

What, because women only with low self esteem have ONS or FWB?

 

That depends on what you view as a healthy self esteem vs. a low self esteem. But yes, I believe it's true in most cases.

 

 

As I said before, I don't have all the answers and I certainly don't know what to tell you here. But it doesn't change my view points and comments on pornography.

 

You don't have to change your views about porn. If you don't have the answers to everything, that is okay and understandable too.

 

But if you say things like men choose porn over real sex, at least tell us what counts as "real sex" and what specific situations you had in mind.

 

 

Not comparable situations. My comments on porn stand. I do not think porn is healthy. I don't think it's any more healthy then going to an escort or using women with poor self esteem. But I digress, are they not already using women with porn self esteem when they turn to porn?

 

I assume that is a typo and you meant "poor" self esteem? In that case, I think that is quite likely.

 

But why do think that women in porn have low self esteem in general and women who have ONS with strangers don't?

 

 

I never said they were. But what does that have to do with the topic at hand? Can you address the comment directy without your eye for an eye stragergy yourself? Why must we address my comment that these are the things that make women respect men less by throwing in "yeah but men respect women less too !" Why can't we honestly address the comment I brought up in a direct fashion?

 

Then what do you suggest happen? Because it does infact seem like men have picked their side and rather stand by their porn use then the real woman in their life.

 

Men and women take sides. With controversial topics like porn, abortion, promiscuity, death penalty, etc. the sides are already taken and opinions are unlikely to change.

 

You too have made up your mind already. And you asked for honest opinions. My opinion is that many men are just tired of discussing this topic. Just like many women had enough of the "women suck" threads that we had seen recently on LS.

 

 

Again, what does this have to do with m ycomment before? You are talking all around the intial comment you qouted me saying. You don't directly want to address the comment itself. This does nothing to open and improve the conversation.

 

Again, that is fine but this has NOTHING to do with addressing what I previously said. This is more of that tit for tat thing, where we can't discuss double standard without someone saying "but they do it too!" And that never leads anywhere useful because we get stuck in the pattern you descrived above about going back and forth instead of taking the time to address something without having to feel like you need to equal it up.

 

I don't mind addressing it directly:

 

Here is the paragraph and in bold is what I quoted before:

 

If men loose interest in their partners and always need to look for something fresh, why even be with us in the first place? Do men like making us feel second rate? Unimportant? Interchangable? Because alot of men here said that after the newness of the relationship runs out a man needs fresh women to view, you might as well tell us that women are interchangable and worthless to you. Do you guys not see how hurtfull that is? Or do you not care that it is as long as you get to see porn? I don't understand how me nsay it's not important yet lie about it it in order to protect the porn viewing. Sadly, this kind of stuff makes women look at men with little respect

 

You say women look at men with little respect, that some women are hurt by their SO watching porn. I am sure that for some women that is a real issue they have to deal with daily and that it hurts them. And believe it or not, I think those feelings are justified.

 

And yet there are virtually no repercussions to watching porn. Either women are silently suffering (which is stupid) or most women don't have the same problem with porn.

 

I don't think you will be able to convince men who don't think that there is a problem with porn and also don't have problems in real life because of their porn use. Men will only see it as a problem if there porn use affects their life. Think of the guy Ruby was talking about, he now has something to think about.

 

Or if women would simply not date guys who look(ed) at porn, then you get your issues recognized. If you just say I don't like that men watch porn but I don't care enough to avoid those men, you lose credibility.

 

And you say you don't understand why men lie about it. The reason I mentioned the tit-for-tat thing is because you yourself had no such thing to say about women lying about having had casual sex. Granted, that was in another thread, but either the lying is wrong in both cases or it's okay in both cases.

[sxyNYCcpl]

Infact, if we truly wanted to be about more sexual openess and tolerance, it certainly wouldn't be done through porn.

 

Taken at face value, I agree with you, porn is merely a symbol (and contributing factor) of our societies maturation and more libertine attitudes.

 

Porn represents a male fantasy that does more to conform then celebrate. Porn represents what men wished women's sexuality to be not what a real woman's sexuality really is.

 

The problem is that you over-generalize. I've asked you many times before exactly what kind of porn you watch, because you speak as if all porn is Max Hardcore (which I too find revolting). My favorite kind of porn is amateur... real people filming their real sex lives and sharing it. Are you suggesting such examples represent only what men want? That they are all unwitting victims? Remember, I'm talking about true amateur- no script, no director, just people filming themselves getting their freak on.

 

But the medium of what porn is, certainly is.

 

At the risk of redundancy, your comments are over reaching. "Porn", whatever it IS is not a singular thing.

 

We aren't just talking about imagery of human sexuality. We are talking about a billion dollar industry geared to men about what they wished female sexuality was. It's fantasy, not reality. And not one that repersents or celebrates women at all.

 

Actually, we are talking exactly about that. Speaking for myself, anyway, when I discuss this issue that's EXACTLY what I'm talking about. And last I checked, it was more like a $10 Billion industry.

[Jersey Shortie]

Alot of porn is not about humiliation. Its about sex (surprise).

 

Alot of porn is about using a woman's body, making that the most important thing about her, treating her like a receptical, and tossing her aside for the next woman. That's what porn is about. It certainly isn't about respecting woman, or even caring about their pleasure! And yeah, it's pretty humilating towards women. That is why hardly any man here would want his wife,gf, sister or daughter in a porn. I know most of you guys know that in your heart and in your head.

 

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

 

You have very clear views about porn use, but it's not a deal breaker for you? Why?

 

Because there are more men that view pornography then don't. Which is a reason why I think it's a bigger problem then most men want to admit.

 

I am sure there are some men who actually prefer that, to say they don't exist would be ludicrous. But they are certainly a minority IM.

 

I don't think they are as much of the minority as men would like to believe about themselves. I think men are more likely to downplay their dependency on porn then truly be honest about it, even with themselves. I will say it again, I think porn is a bigger issue then men even want to admit to themselves. And one that is growing because there will be generations of boys growing up on it like never before. How come no one ever once to consider that? We aren't in a time when a guy is looking at a mag once a month of a pair of photoshopped breasts. We are talking about hardcore things, that are there daily that men view daily. That young boys are going to grow up thinking is normal. Why isn't that no one ever wants to address that?

 

You may have a point when we are talking about men in relationships, but single men who don't even have an SO? How are they choosing porn over sex?

 

I can't speak for other men, but I decide to masturbate and then might choose to watch porn or not, not the other way around. And I am single. I have not the slightest idea how that can be seen as choosing porn over sex.

 

Porn is easy with little effort needed. It doesn't matter if you are single or not. You are still making a choice to pick it. On top of that, being single doesn't change the fact that over whelmingly so, porn treats women like objects to be used and tossed aside for the next new face. And I hate how men seem to think that women shouldn't infact be concerned with how carelessly they can treat and discard a woman just so they can blow a load. Being single, doesn't change the views porn depicts about women, the role men want to see them in, the narrow stereotypes, offensive treatment and name calling, the ideals and misconneptions and little concern about women in it that is often found in porn.

 

That depends on what you view as a healthy self esteem vs. a low self esteem. But yes, I believe it's true in most cases.

 

Going with your thought process, believing most people who seek out ONS and FWB have low self esteem....and by people I think you mean "women", not men, if you are so worried about the self esteem of women, why would you contribute to an industry that feeds off the low self esteem of women? Lets be honest, porn doesn't attract women that are so confident in themselves and have tons of options in life. Most of the owmen aren't going to be making tons and tons of money. Most of the women who decide to do porn aren't doing it because they love men and sex. There might be the rare woman that does. But it's rare. Women that want healthy relationships with men don't do porn. So really, by your own thought process, both "outlets" only work because they pray on women with low self esteem and making women objects, not people.

 

But why do think that women in porn have low self esteem in general and women who have ONS with strangers don't?

 

Because I think women can just as easily get wrapped up in the moment of chemistry and sex as men can. Because having a ONS isn't something she is doing regularly and making money off of. Because when you have a ONS, your not taping yourself to be something for men to masturbate off to. Youre doing it to please yourself sexually. A woman in porn is doing porn to make money, she idn't doing it becaues she dreamed about being a porn star when she was a little girl. ONS is something that happens sometimes. Women are just as passionate as men when it comes to sex. I don't think if a woman has ONS that it's an indicator that she has low self esteem. Unless she does it all the time or she does it and then feels bad about it afterwards. If she has a FWB that she trusts, how does that make her have low self esteem?

 

 

Men and women take sides. With controversial topics like porn, abortion, promiscuity, death penalty, etc. the sides are already taken and opinions are unlikely to change.

 

You too have made up your mind already. And you asked for honest opinions. My opinion is that many men are just tired of discussing this topic. Just like many women had enough of the "women suck" threads that we had seen recently on LS.

 

Again, you don't even address the question I asked directly. You talk around it and say "oh men are just sick of these topics". You ask me a bunch of questions and expect me to answer them but do not give me the same grace of answering my questions. Amazing. Your opinion is just something you use to walk around the real questions I asked. Your answer "oh men are just suck of talkign about it" doesn't do anything to directly address the question I asked you as you sit back and type question after question asking me to answer yours. Not cool.

 

 

And yet there are virtually no repercussions to watching porn. Either women are silently suffering (which is stupid) or most women don't have the same problem with porn.

 

There are alot of repercussions of porn. To think not is a little navie! Many of them we are slowly seeing. Many of them that will take a while to show themselves. All these porn threads that go on pages and pages and do that for a reason. It's not because there aren't repercussions or women aren't dealing with these issues everyday. The reprecussions are vast and strong. From how sexual view change due to media perception, the time men now spend viewing porn, the ideas and stereotypes fostered in porn..the list goes on and are things I've touched onbefore.

 

I've talked with many women on this subject. Online and in the real world. you might want to downplay it but its just not being realistic.

 

I don't think you will be able to convince men who don't think that there is a problem with porn and also don't have problems in real life because of their porn use. Men will only see it as a problem if there porn use affects their life.

 

I know most men don't think porn is a problem. Your not the gender being used and objectified and treated like your crap. It's really easy for you men to sit therea nd say nothing is wrong with porn when your not the gender being called names and smaked around and stereotyped and used and tossed aside woman after woman. I know most men don't think porn is a problem because porn is mostly about male fantasy. I know most men don't see it s as a problem or think it affects their life but I know from these threads, from the men in real life I've seen and discussed it with and heard other women discuss it with, that porn is a way bigger problem to more men then they care to admit to. I wonder how many men could honestly just give up porn and not look at it ever again. If you can do that, yeah maybe you don't have a problem with porn. But to be honest, I think men today have made themselves dependent on porn. And I think that most men also don't even want to admit it to themselves the truth in that.

[Peter Attis]

http://img413.imageshack.us/img413/2502/yawna.gif

[Woggle]

Not all porn is created equal. I don't like child porn, porn that glamourizes rape and violence against women and when you look at the way a lot of strippers become hardened misandrists with a lot of issues maybe even that isn't so good. That being said there is nothing wrong with a man simply looking at nude pictures of women or sexual entertainment and there is nothing wrong with a woman doing the same. Not all sexuality is degrading but many feminists almost come across as prudish as the religious right when it comes to this issue.

[Jersey Shortie]

How about if a woman wanted to pose nude while in a relationship and have the admiration of alot of men?

[shadowplay]

This thread needs to die.

 

It's gone totally off topic from my original questions, and been taken over by the same predictable responses/posters.

[Stockalone]

Because there are more men that view pornography then don't. Which is a reason why I think it's a bigger problem then most men want to admit.

 

I just want to make sure that I got this right and not make wrong assumptions.

 

Despite the fact that you loathe porn and think that porn degrades women, you do date guys who watch porn because your dating pool would otherwise become (significantly) smaller?

 

 

I don't think they are as much of the minority as men would like to believe about themselves. I think men are more likely to downplay their dependency on porn then truly be honest about it, even with themselves. I will say it again, I think porn is a bigger issue then men even want to admit to themselves. And one that is growing because there will be generations of boys growing up on it like never before. How come no one ever once to consider that? We aren't in a time when a guy is looking at a mag once a month of a pair of photoshopped breasts. We are talking about hardcore things, that are there daily that men view daily. That young boys are going to grow up thinking is normal. Why isn't that no one ever wants to address that?

 

That men lie to themselves is your opinion. I don't think that is the case. There are guys who aren't even interested in porn. Others only watch porn while they are single. Some will watch it when their SO isn't available or interested. And some men will prefer porn over having sex with their SO.

 

As for kids growing up with porn, it is dangerous when kids (boys and girls) watch things they aren't yet ready to see. And I do think it should be more difficult (I don't think you can make it impossible) for them to get access to porn, violent movies and even First-person shooter video games. Heck, I even think the news are too casual with some of the images they show.

 

Parents can try to limit access, but it is probably not possible to prevent kids to get access if you are faced with a basically unlimited supply.

 

What can be done is doing a good job of educating kids. Sex education is important. Not only about body changes during puberty, emotions, the biological process of reproduction, sexual activity, partnership, homosexuality, unwanted pregnancies and the complications of abortion. But also the dangers of sexual violence, child abuse, and STDs. And I think it's imperative to tell kids that what they will see in porn should not be mistaken for reality. Women aren't toys, women aren't there to indulge a man's every whim. There is a lot of weird stuff in porn,and plenty of it I find plain disturbing and sick.

 

 

Porn is easy with little effort needed. It doesn't matter if you are single or not. You are still making a choice to pick it. On top of that, being single doesn't change the fact that over whelmingly so, porn treats women like objects to be used and tossed aside for the next new face. And I hate how men seem to think that women shouldn't infact be concerned with how carelessly they can treat and discard a woman just so they can blow a load. Being single, doesn't change the views porn depicts about women, the role men want to see them in, the narrow stereotypes, offensive treatment and name calling, the ideals and misconneptions and little concern about women in it that is often found in porn.

 

Watching porn or not watching porn is a choice, I never denied that. But you said that men choose porn over real sex. I asked how single men who don't even have an SO are choosing porn over real sex? And what situations you had in mind, as well as what "real sex" is. You didn't answer those question.

 

And I never said that women shouldn't be concerned about how some (most?) porn depicts women. I am not defending all porn, there is a lot of porn that bothers me. Often I only like parts of a movie/scene, and other times there is nothing at all that I like. But I do think that some aspects of porn are not degrading.

 

If a woman I date wanted to know/see what kind of porn I watch when I am single, I would tell/show her. And I have never watched porn while I was in a relationship. That's what I offer, she could either take it or leave it.

 

 

Going with your thought process, believing most people who seek out ONS and FWB have low self esteem....and by people I think you mean "women", not men, if you are so worried about the self esteem of women, why would you contribute to an industry that feeds off the low self esteem of women? Lets be honest, porn doesn't attract women that are so confident in themselves and have tons of options in life. Most of the owmen aren't going to be making tons and tons of money. Most of the women who decide to do porn aren't doing it because they love men and sex. There might be the rare woman that does. But it's rare. Women that want healthy relationships with men don't do porn. So really, by your own thought process, both "outlets" only work because they pray on women with low self esteem and making women objects, not people.

 

I am not worried about the self esteem of women, they don't need nor want my help. I have spent very little money, but in doing so, I did support the porn industry, so that's a valid question.

 

So why do I support an industry that feeds off of women with low self-esteem? My tastes are very vanilla, so is the porn I watch. I don't think it is demeaning towards women, I also don't treat women as objects. And I obviously don't care enough, I am not Albert Schweitzer who has devoted his life to fight the injustices in the world.

 

 

 

Low self-esteem/confidence manifests in different ways in men and women. I think when it comes to casual sex, more women than men have self-esteem issues. How many guys with low self-esteem/confidence do you know that get laid on a regular basis? Plenty of women think that sex will keep a man or make him want more. That rarely works and there is a good chance that the women will get hurt.

 

Similarly, men with low self-esteem/confidence are usually the ones who pine after a woman who would never think of them as relationship material even if the guy would be the last man on the planet.

 

 

Because I think women can just as easily get wrapped up in the moment of chemistry and sex as men can. Because having a ONS isn't something she is doing regularly and making money off of. Because when you have a ONS, your not taping yourself to be something for men to masturbate off to. Youre doing it to please yourself sexually. A woman in porn is doing porn to make money, she idn't doing it becaues she dreamed about being a porn star when she was a little girl. ONS is something that happens sometimes. Women are just as passionate as men when it comes to sex. I don't think if a woman has ONS that it's an indicator that she has low self esteem. Unless she does it all the time or she does it and then feels bad about it afterwards. If she has a FWB that she trusts, how does that make her have low self esteem?

 

I agree with you that most women in porn don't have a healthy self-esteem. They rarely do it for the money and/or because they love the job. But I also think that most women who do the casual sex routine don't have a healthy self-esteem.

 

A FWB (if it really is with someone the woman can and should trust) is slightly different. In that case, it's probably not a low self-esteem, but recklessness. I also think it is reckless for a guy to have casual sex. But since I don't date guys, I don't have to worry about them. Aside from a possible low self-esteem, casual sex takes away from a woman's femininity, which will decrease her desirability for me.

 

Sadly, this kind of stuff makes men look at women with little respect. Sound familiar?

 

 

Again, you don't even address the question I asked directly. You talk around it and say "oh men are just sick of these topics". You ask me a bunch of questions and expect me to answer them but do not give me the same grace of answering my questions. Amazing. Your opinion is just something you use to walk around the real questions I asked. Your answer "oh men are just suck of talkign about it" doesn't do anything to directly address the question I asked you as you sit back and type question after question asking me to answer yours. Not cool.

 

I feel that I answered the questions. If you feel that I should address certain issues again or if I didn't answer a question, please point out what you want clarified and/or ask the question again.

 

 

There are alot of repercussions of porn. To think not is a little navie! Many of them we are slowly seeing. Many of them that will take a while to show themselves. All these porn threads that go on pages and pages and do that for a reason. It's not because there aren't repercussions or women aren't dealing with these issues everyday. The reprecussions are vast and strong. From how sexual view change due to media perception, the time men now spend viewing porn, the ideas and stereotypes fostered in porn..the list goes on and are things I've touched onbefore.

 

I've talked with many women on this subject. Online and in the real world. you might want to downplay it but its just not being realistic.

 

What you are talking about are potentially dangerous side effects of having porn readily available. That's different from what I meant.

 

With repercussions, I meant consequences in the dating world. A guy who watches porn is still getting dates and has relationships. It's very rare that women will avoid men because they watch porn.

 

However, that would IMO be the only consequences that might make men reconsider their views. As long as guys can watch porn and women only complain but in the cave and end let men do what they want, men won't change.

 

 

I know most men don't think porn is a problem. Your not the gender being used and objectified and treated like your crap. It's really easy for you men to sit therea nd say nothing is wrong with porn when your not the gender being called names and smaked around and stereotyped and used and tossed aside woman after woman. I know most men don't think porn is a problem because porn is mostly about male fantasy. I know most men don't see it s as a problem or think it affects their life but I know from these threads, from the men in real life I've seen and discussed it with and heard other women discuss it with, that porn is a way bigger problem to more men then they care to admit to. I wonder how many men could honestly just give up porn and not look at it ever again. If you can do that, yeah maybe you don't have a problem with porn. But to be honest, I think men today have made themselves dependent on porn. And I think that most men also don't even want to admit it to themselves the truth in that.

 

Men are stereotyped as well by women and some women most certainly put men in boxes too.

 

Women call men losers, creeps, jerks, etc. Often justified, but sometimes not justified at all. We men have to live with that too, women aren't the poor innocent angels that have fallen victim to men's repulsive views.

 

You said women want casual sex too. And now you claim that women are the ones getting tossed aside one by one. If women want casual sex, no feelings, no strings, that is what they get. It's up to each women to decide what she wants.

 

If you are talking about being lied to by men, being "tricked" into relationships to give up sex, then that is a problem and that is condemnable. Granted, guys who are liars and players might be encouraged in their views by what they see in porn. But I very much doubt it was porn what caused that behaviour.

 

Are men dependent on porn? Porn is certainly convenient, but I don't think that men in general are dependent on porn.

[Jersey Shortie]

Despite the fact that you loathe porn and think that porn degrades women, you do date guys who watch porn because your dating pool would otherwise become (significantly) smaller?

 

I've dated men that viewed porn. I've heard all the justifications and excuses and commentary about why I'm "wrong" in the process of men justifying their pornography. Most men view porn. I never denied that. Do I think that means it's okay and right? No.

 

That's why I think most men have made themselves all too dependent on pornography. I never told a man he had to stop looking at it. He is an adult. I've had discussions about my opinions on it. It's lowered both my trust and respect for men many a time. There was a time when I had alot of trust and respect for men. But after seeing how men like to see women treated, I question what men are about today.

 

How do men expet women to respect them if they don't respect women? How do men expect women to respect them if they indulge in a medium that more times then not, is demeaning to women? Where does a man stand when he claims he respects women but when he shuts the door at night, he is helping to support an industry that doesn't?

 

When I first started learning that men watched porn I did alot to try and understand. I tried really hard. I tried to give men the benefit of the doubt. I looked at porn myself trying to understand. And the things I saw were pretty loathesome and disparaging. But enough men like those loathseom and disparaging things that they are out there. Just type the word "porn" in and you can see some demeaning things.

 

There is NOTHING women have that equals the treatment of men in what men have with porngraphy. I read articles. I asked questions. I spoke with both men and women. And after all that, the only thing that makes sense is that the most important thing to men is their ability to nut off over their ability to treat women as human beings. The only think that makes sense is tha tmen feel they need and deserve an outlet that allows them to treat women as nothing more then objects all the while expecting that women still maintain respect for them and an understanding that their desires as men should come at the price of a woman's self respect.

 

If women had an industry that treated men such as porn treats women, I think men would be equally upset. If women had an industry that often called men names, was about using them and tossing them into the gutter after using him for his money to buy her pretty things, I think men would have a deeper understanding about the situations at hand and why it's so confusing and troublesome to women that wish for love and respect in their lives.

 

That men lie to themselves is your opinion. I don't think that is the case.

 

As that's your opinion. And yes, I think many men do a certain amount of lying to themselves about their dependency on pornography. You can see it in the lengths go men to defend it here alone.

 

There are guys who aren't even interested in porn. Others only watch porn while they are single. Some will watch it when their SO isn't available or interested. And some men will prefer porn over having sex with their SO.

 

There is no doubt that men watch porn to varying degrees. It does not change the fact that they still support an industry that is ultimately pretty disparaging towards women, filled with stereotypes and pretty much treats women like they are nothing. Should women not question how men really feel about women considering the things that make men happy enough to get off that are often showcased in porn? Considering the medium is one that certainly the majority of men would NEVER want to see their own daughters in?

 

As for kids growing up with porn, it is dangerous when kids (boys and girls) watch things they aren't yet ready to see.

 

It happens everyday and we see the reprocussions of that everyday. It's a slow and insideous change that I think is happening more and more with the advent of the internet. Relationships between men and women, even sexuality, is not at a better place with the advent of internet porn. Men were able to survive without internet porn for generations. All the sudden they can't?

 

Parents can try to limit access, but it is probably not possible to prevent kids to get access if you are faced with a basically unlimited supply.

 

Exactly, an unlimited supply that ends up directly in the home where one don't even have to directly pay for it or go out and suffer any kind of public awareness to get it. Those are breeding grounds for a host of issues.

 

What can be done is doing a good job of educating kids. Sex education is important. Not only about body changes during puberty, emotions, the biological process of reproduction, sexual activity, partnership, homosexuality, unwanted pregnancies and the complications of abortion. But also the dangers of sexual violence, child abuse, and STDs. And I think it's imperative to tell kids that what they will see in porn should not be mistaken for reality. Women aren't toys, women aren't there to indulge a man's every whim.

 

How many parents do you think have an honest talk to their children about pornography? How many fathers do you think sit down with their sons and actually say "women aren't toys"? Compared to men that oggle other women infront of their own wives or sons or daughters or nudge their son and give a wink wink about the hot waitress? How many mothers do you think sit down and have those conversations as well? How many young boys do you think are going to have the worldly mind to look at porn and say that women aren't toys when that's exactly the world they are being presented with? When they see grown adult males treat women just like that? Please be realistic.

 

If women aren't toys, then why do so many grown men take pleasure in projecting them that way in porn movies and using it to their advantage? Apparently, for many men, even men that are fathers, brothers and husbands, women are just that. Toys there to indulge his fantasy. That's the message. Men want women to be toys there to indulge his fantasy. Nothing more. And that is why so many men buy into and indugle in porn themselves. And why so many turn back to it on regular basis. And yet men seem to think that this shouldn't bother women? That the message is that women are worthless beyong their ability to spread their legs but women should think that men really do respect and care for them? Why is that? Why in the heck do you think women should feel that men respect them if the one medium alot of men covet is a medium that is about dehumanizing anything about women?

 

They rather sit infront of their computers with their pants around their legs supporting an industry that gives just the message you claim should be debunked. Wouldn't the greatest debunker of such a message be to not indulge in it at all? Do I think men are capable of handling the media overload they get from porn ? I really don't. And that isn't a put down. I do not think people are designed to handle the media overload we have today. And I think men indulge in their weakness too much instead of being strong for the sake of their relationships with the women in their lives.It's like you guys want to live two lives. You want to be able to demean women on one hand, look at them as objects and support an industry that trats them thus, while still hoping to have the respect and understanding of the very gender you want to demean on the side. Why is that?

 

There is a lot of weird stuff in porn,and plenty of it I find plain disturbing and sick.

 

If there wasn't a market for it, then there wouldn't be "plenty" of things you find disturbing. Clearly there is enough of a market for it.

 

 

Watching porn or not watching porn is a choice, I never denied that. But you said that men choose porn over real sex. I asked how single men who don't even have an SO are choosing porn over real sex? And what situations you had in mind, as well as what "real sex" is. You didn't answer those question.

 

I'm not sure what you are asking me. If a man is choosing to look at porn, he is choosing to look at porn. I can't say that I think it's okay for a single man to view porn over one in a relationship because I disagree with the way porn in general depicts and showcases women. If you are single or in a relationship, either way, you are choosing porn over sex.

 

Real sex is obviously any interaction between real people.

 

And I never said that women shouldn't be concerned about how some (most?) porn depicts women. I am not defending all porn, there is a lot of porn that bothers me. Often I only like parts of a movie/scene, and other times there is nothing at all that I like. But I do think that some aspects of porn are not degrading.

 

Which aspects of porn are not degrading?

 

How much of porn do you think is degrading compared to how much of it isn't?

 

 

If a woman I date wanted to know/see what kind of porn I watch when I am single, I would tell/show her. And I have never watched porn while I was in a relationship. That's what I offer, she could either take it or leave it.

 

That's of course your choice, and hers.

 

 

So why do I support an industry that feeds off of women with low self-esteem? My tastes are very vanilla, so is the porn I watch. I don't think it is demeaning towards women, I also don't treat women as objects. And I obviously don't care enough, I am not Albert Schweitzer who has devoted his life to fight the injustices in the world.

 

How many men do you think watch what you describe as vanilla porn compared to how many men watch hardcore porn?

 

How many men do you think find porn demeaning to women but enjoy it anyway? I already have my ideas on this as I am sure you do too.

 

If you want porn that you describe as "vanilla", it still puts women into a narrowly defined role.

 

 

Low self-esteem/confidence manifests in different ways in men and women. I think when it comes to casual sex, more women than men have self-esteem issues. How many guys with low self-esteem/confidence do you know that get laid on a regular basis? Plenty of women think that sex will keep a man or make him want more. That rarely works and there is a good chance that the women will get hurt.

 

Similarly, men with low self-esteem/confidence are usually the ones who pine after a woman who would never think of them as relationship material even if the guy would be the last man on the planet.

 

Sometimes that's true. Sometimes it's not.

 

 

I agree with you that most women in porn don't have a healthy self-esteem. They rarely do it for the money and/or because they love the job. But I also think that most women who do the casual sex routine don't have a healthy self-esteem.

 

So then why do men get off to a medium that they know is filled with women with unhealthy self esteems?

 

What does that say about men that are willing to exploit women that are in vunerable positions? What should a woman think of a man, her husband or boyfriend, that is more then happy to take advantage of women in such positions? It's easy to pray on the weak I guess. But why do men think that this should make them more attractive to a real woman who sees him taking advantage of an industry that is about the exploitation of vunerable women?

 

And maybe some women that practice causual sex don't have healthy self esteem. But either do some men. Men look for validation through sex just as much, if not more, then women do. Even if men can walk away more easily in some cases. they seek out a validation that speaks to their own level of self esteem. And men that have to keep seeking out a new thrill, or new woman, do so because they are not content with themselves as a man and feel they need to re-live the high that get from sex with a new challenge. That's not confidence either.

 

 

A FWB (if it really is with someone the woman can and should trust) is slightly different. In that case, it's probably not a low self-esteem, but recklessness. I also think it is reckless for a guy to have casual sex. But since I don't date guys, I don't have to worry about them. Aside from a possible low self-esteem, casual sex takes away from a woman's femininity, which will decrease her desirability for me.

 

Sadly, this kind of stuff makes men look at women with little respect. Sound familiar?

 

You're allowed to think what you want. i have no issue with that. I do not agree but if you feel it atakes away from a woman's feminity, so be it. Funny enough, I also think porn takes away from real feminity. So while men seek it out and lamenate the wonderfulness of porn, it's such a freakshow, that it really does alot to dim real feminity and a woman's individual sexuality.

 

I feel that I answered the questions. If you feel that I should address certain issues again or if I didn't answer a question, please point out what you want clarified and/or ask the question again.

 

I thought I DID just point it out.

 

 

What you are talking about are potentially dangerous side effects of having porn readily available.

 

Important aspects to consider.

 

 

However, that would IMO be the only consequences that might make men reconsider their views. As long as guys can watch porn and women only complain but in the cave and end let men do what they want, men won't change.

 

That's because men are not incharge of their own actions. And because men make women accounable for what men choose not to be. And yet, you all want to be the big strong leaders. You just don't actually want to get your hands dirty doing the hard work that entitles. So you leave all the reasons why you don't do something, or actually be strong men, by justifying it by putting the responsiblity on women's shoulders. Totally wrong and unfair. But I've seen this mentality ALOT from men. Men want to be the leaders but you guys don't want to make the hard choices it takes to actually have women look to you with respect at your leadership skills.

 

 

Men are stereotyped as well by women and some women most certainly put men in boxes too.

 

Women call men losers, creeps, jerks, etc

 

Those are names women call men. Women don't want to interact with men they deem losers, creeps and jerks. Men also have names for women that they don't interact with. What I am talking about is men put women in little boxes and take them out to play when it suits them. Wife/gf for when he wants some tlc. porn for when he wants to justify his desire for anything other then the partner he claims he cares so much for. different situation you are talking about.

 

 

You said women want casual sex too. And now you claim that women are the ones getting tossed aside one by one. If women want casual sex, no feelings, no strings, that is what they get. It's up to each women to decide what she wants.

 

Yes, women can totally have casual sex and not be messed up for it. they also can be used by men too. Both situations happen! It certainly is up to women to decide what they want! I never argued otherwise. And apparently, by your previous comments, it's also up to women to be in charge of man's choices too. Since men can not hold themselves accounable for how they treat women. Its up to women to be the moral gate keepers of the world while men keep on jusifying all their behavior on their hormones.

 

If you are talking about being lied to by men, being "tricked" into relationships to give up sex, then that is a problem and that is condemnable. Granted, guys who are liars and players might be encouraged in their views by what they see in porn. But I very much doubt it was porn what caused that behaviour.

 

Maybe. maybe not. Porn certainly hasn't given men a better perspective on women. Not even a healthy one at that. You don't have a medium like porn that a man view reuglarly and can't expect the male population to not be unaffected by what they see in it. That's comletely illogical. I think that porn has changed our views on sex and how men see women and treat them.

 

Are men dependent on porn? Porn is certainly convenient, but I don't think that men in general are dependent on porn.

 

Sure they are. look at all the porn threads and how quick men are to justfy porn use, defend it all the basis that they are "men". Look at how many men define the meaning of being man by who looks at porn and who doesn't.

 

Keep watching the porn guys! That's the way to get women to respect you. The idea of you pathetically sitting infront of your computer with your dress socks on and your pants around your ankles while you dream about banging the babysitter. That's the kind of women all women want! What a joke. You guys defend porn and it's make a joke out of men jsut as much as it's make a profit off of degrading women.

[A O]

How do men expet women to respect them if they don't respect women?

Crikey, that was some scroll!

 

Now, you don't respect men anyway so your point is little more than another veiled attempt to kick men up the gangulies. Other than that, respect yourself first and foremost, control your own destiny, have faith in your own ability to deal with whatever life throws at you and most importantly, stop blaming everyone or everything else for what befalls you.

 

That's leadership, that's accountability.

 

 

.

[Barky]

For someone to get that worked up about porn, whether for it or against it, suggests that the person needs psychological help.

[rod_in_gtown]

this thread needs to die.

 

It's gone totally off topic from my original questions, and been taken over by the same predictable responses/posters.

 

amen sistah!

[lino]

amen sistah!

 

I second that!

 

It's clear that some people have waaaaaaaaaay too much time on their hands!!