Author OWoman Posted February 1, 2010 Author Posted February 1, 2010 Then why did you come to an ow support board? I've answered that before on these boards, but I'm not sure if you have, so I'll let you take the first turn in answering before I do.
Author OWoman Posted February 1, 2010 Author Posted February 1, 2010 I see an A very very different than a 'normal' relationship... First, it's got to be secret (with your entourage).. as a R doesn't have to... The spontaneity is lacking... You are knowingly sharing a man... I'm sure there is more.. I'll think about it.. Hmmm - my Rs were probably more secret than my As, and I've never been a believer in sexual monogamy, so I'll just have to bow to your superior knowledge on those points , but on the point of spontaneity... Do you think that that is inherent in it being an A, or is that just a function of the way you prefer to organise it with your MMs (to keep them scheduled so that they don't collide with each other on the way in or out, say)?
reboot Posted February 1, 2010 Posted February 1, 2010 OW (and I sincerely mean no disrespect), I just wanted to point out that most/all? of your past relationships, and particularly your current relationship, are not typical of most affair relationships (the ones I'm familiar with irl and the ones I read about here). Of the ones I recall you talking about, your past affairs were only that and that's all you wanted or expected out of them. Your current relationship (I've been gone so long, did you guys ever get married yourselves?) was with a man whose marriage was nothing more than a formality anyway. You aren't the blasted, broken hearted, near suicidal man/woman that's been thrown under the bus by their OM/OW whose posts we often read here. Nothing wrong with you telling your story as it probably gives some people hope, as long as they realize the odds of what happened with you happening for them aren't all that good. Particularly among the (large) American contingent here, where the culture is much different from yours concerning these kind of relationships. In all fairness, I feel the same way about the "successfully reconciled marriage after affair" stories I read here and elsewhere. They're heart warming and give people hope, but I don't think they're very typical either.
Author OWoman Posted February 1, 2010 Author Posted February 1, 2010 And on that same note do you know what he is going into when he goes to the office? Actually I do - he works from home most of the time (as do I) so he only goes in for scheduled meetings, once in a blue moon. His new office is opposite a close friend, next to a tea area where people congregate, and his office door has a huge window in it so if I really wanted to know I could get a minute-by-minute description Does he know what I'm up to when he's away? I'm sure that's far more risky.... He's got a track record of three decades of sexual exclusivity behind him, me... notsomuch. I know who I'd be more worried about...
Author OWoman Posted February 1, 2010 Author Posted February 1, 2010 OW (and I sincerely mean no disrespect), I just wanted to point out that most/all? of your past relationships, and particularly your current relationship, are not typical of most affair relationships (the ones I'm familiar with irl and the ones I read about here). Of the ones I recall you talking about, your past affairs were only that and that's all you wanted or expected out of them. Your current relationship (I've been gone so long, did you guys ever get married yourselves?) was with a man whose marriage was nothing more than a formality anyway. You aren't the blasted, broken hearted, near suicidal man/woman that's been thrown under the bus by their OM/OW whose posts we often read here. Nothing wrong with you telling your story as it probably gives some people hope, as long as they realize the odds of what happened with you happening for them aren't all that good. Particularly among the (large) American contingent here, where the culture is much different from yours concerning these kind of relationships. In all fairness, I feel the same way about the "successfully reconciled marriage after affair" stories I read here and elsewhere. They're heart warming and give people hope, but I don't think they're very typical either. Point taken but I don't think I'm the only one. IIRC GEL posted elsewhere on the forum that the reason she didn't suspect that her now-H was M was that their A was exactly like any other R. She had the same access, frequency and quality of treatment as she'd expect in any other R. He was just like any other BF in that regard. She demanded - and received - the same kind of R she'd want from any other guy. So I don't think that it's just that I'm some kind of freak show.... This thread wasn't designed to inflame (though some have taken it that way) but rather to ask - IF someone sees an A as having to be different to any other R, how would it have to be different, and what would make it different? Both Spark and Lizzie have mentioned planning / spontaneity, and I can imagine that this might be an issue - but is it an issue because Lizzie (or whomever) CHOOSES to manage their A that way, or is it an issue because structurally spontaneity is impossible / very difficult in an A? I guess behind my thinking is... people get the Rs they settle for. If so much more is possible, why settle for less? Or, conversely, if something ISN'T possible, why hold out hope for it and continually face disappointment? I suppose I'm just curious as to what the actual limitations and possibilities are, beyond the hopes and the limits we set for ourselves in our Rs. (oh and yes, our anniversary is coming up shortly. I'd send you an invite, but it's a celebration just for two )
Lizzie60 Posted February 1, 2010 Posted February 1, 2010 Hmmm - my Rs were probably more secret than my As, and I've never been a believer in sexual monogamy, so I'll just have to bow to your superior knowledge on those points , but on the point of spontaneity... Do you think that that is inherent in it being an A, or is that just a function of the way you prefer to organise it with your MMs (to keep them scheduled so that they don't collide with each other on the way in or out, say)? Not for me ... all my Rs were opened to my family and friends.. not my As.. I am also NOT a believer in sexual monogamy (on a long term).. especially for Rs... As are different.. since it's not on a daily basis.. it can last for years, even longer than Rs.. Yes of course spontaneity is inherent to an A... how can it be different... you cannot say.. you want to go on a weekend getaway... you can't do that on a 5-minute notice with a MM... on a relationship.. it's way easier.. So.. no matter how you turn it around.. Rs and As are wwwwwaaayyy different..
jwi71 Posted February 1, 2010 Posted February 1, 2010 I guess behind my thinking is... people get the Rs they settle for. Prior to LS I would have agreed with this sentiment. However, this forum in particular is full of posters who WANT more and do not get it. Instead, they get more lies, excuses and obfuscations about why they cannot have it. And THAT they accept. We read things like "half a man is better than none" (I forget who said that). And many times, the OW/OM is SINGLE. For me its absolutely mind-boggling. If so much more is possible, why settle for less? Or, conversely, if something ISN'T possible, why hold out hope for it and continually face disappointment? I suppose I'm just curious as to what the actual limitations and possibilities are, beyond the hopes and the limits we set for ourselves in our Rs. These are my questions as well.
torranceshipman Posted February 1, 2010 Posted February 1, 2010 From a R I'd need: a man who respects me, who has a character that I can really respect, and who loves me and treats me very well (and who I really love). Treating me very well includes the feeling of security, knowing I am a priority, that I can trust him,etc. Part of that security is having that awesome feeling of knowing we can plan family trips, a spontaneous weekend trip, or just chill with each other every night, call eachothers friends to arrange get togethers...whatever. Basically,that he is there for me and adds to my life in a very lovely way and makes me happy. (and I have this, so I fel very blessed). So by my set of boundaries/needs, an A isn't comparable to a regular R, as an A couldn't meet a single one of these needs. This is not a flame, as many OW are happy to just take few basic things from their MM, such as words not actions, or bit of time and sharing the guy with hs W and not really seeing much of him, and thy can live with that, and I'm not trying to judge that. But I want a lot more, so personally for me I cant compare a regular R and an A.
Author OWoman Posted February 1, 2010 Author Posted February 1, 2010 Yes of course spontaneity is inherent to an A... how can it be different... you cannot say.. you want to go on a weekend getaway... you can't do that on a 5-minute notice with a MM... on a relationship.. it's way easier.. Ah, well, my experience is different on that - I'd pick up the phone and say, can you be ready in half an hour for a weekend trip to X? I knew that if that MM said no, there'd be plenty of others on my meatlist that would leap at the chance - and they knew it too, so I never had anyone unable to make it. I've no idea how they organised it at home, what excuses if any they gave - that was their problem, not mine. Not that that was something I did all the time - I was far too busy living my own life to want to commit each weekend to one or other MM... but if I felt like a dirty weekend, and was able to spare the time myself, I would and did do exactly that.
Author OWoman Posted February 1, 2010 Author Posted February 1, 2010 Prior to LS I would have agreed with this sentiment. However, this forum in particular is full of posters who WANT more and do not get it. Instead, they get more lies, excuses and obfuscations about why they cannot have it. And THAT they accept. Ah - but is that because it's structurally not possible for someone in their position to get it, or because they're prepared to settle for less - so are only given less? (That's not a diss, it's a genuine question. If any OW feels she IS settling for less, is that because she knows that if she insists on more she'll be booted and she'd rather have what she's got than nothing, or because she's not willing to take that risk and prefers to let it seem as if she's happy with what she gets so as to keep the peace / keep the piece...? )
Lizzie60 Posted February 1, 2010 Posted February 1, 2010 Ah, well, my experience is different on that - I'd pick up the phone and say, can you be ready in half an hour for a weekend trip to X? I knew that if that MM said no, there'd be plenty of others on my meatlist that would leap at the chance - and they knew it too, so I never had anyone unable to make it. I've no idea how they organised it at home, what excuses if any they gave - that was their problem, not mine. Not that that was something I did all the time - I was far too busy living my own life to want to commit each weekend to one or other MM... but if I felt like a dirty weekend, and was able to spare the time myself, I would and did do exactly that. Well... your As were a lot different than most.. Of course.. if one is not available.. I have others.. but let's say I feel like being with that one.. It's not that easy to coordinate the timing.. Your A was different (with your now H) IMO.. he was living like a roomate with his W.. from what I read.. she didn't give a hoot if he was scre*ing around.. nor did he... He was more like a single MM.. mine are all living at home.. and are all in 'loving' M.. with kids, etc..
Author OWoman Posted February 1, 2010 Author Posted February 1, 2010 you want to go on a weekend getaway... you can't do that on a 5-minute notice with a MM... on a relationship.. it's way easier.. On reflection... further to my earlier response on this: I wonder if it would have been so easy for a SG to drop everything at my bidding. He may have arranged to work that weekend, or had a hot party or some other hectic social events set up that he would be reluctant to miss (or may even have been hosting). And if he didn't - who wants to date the kind of loser who just sits around all weekend waiting for someone to inject some action into his life? I far prefer happening people! The MM at least would have an excuse not to have an exciting weekend lined up ("family commitments") whereas for a SG it would just be terminal sadness!
Author OWoman Posted February 1, 2010 Author Posted February 1, 2010 mine are all living at home.. and are all in 'loving' M.. with kids, etc.. That does make a huge difference!
LucreziaBorgia Posted February 1, 2010 Posted February 1, 2010 My affairs were like my high school relationships: not serious, short lived, limited in scope, and thankfully disposable when needed. That's exactly how I liked it.
Lizzie60 Posted February 1, 2010 Posted February 1, 2010 On reflection... further to my earlier response on this: I wonder if it would have been so easy for a SG to drop everything at my bidding. He may have arranged to work that weekend, or had a hot party or some other hectic social events set up that he would be reluctant to miss (or may even have been hosting). And if he didn't - who wants to date the kind of loser who just sits around all weekend waiting for someone to inject some action into his life? I far prefer happening people! The MM at least would have an excuse not to have an exciting weekend lined up ("family commitments") whereas for a SG it would just be terminal sadness! Well it could be the same thing for a MM... he might have had some other plans.. or his kids were sick.. or a hockey or soccer game .. whatever.. as a SG... (work would be the only excuse)..
grogster Posted February 1, 2010 Posted February 1, 2010 My affair with a MW was like any other romantic/erotic relationship--only more so. We observed the relationship rules with one huge exception: we carried on sexually with our spouses. I often read here that affairs are not real relationships. And that the affair's secrecy and lies and taboo-breach allegedly create an imitation of a relationship. That was not my experience where the MW and I were emotionally and/or physically involved for 5 years. In these sustained parallel "marriages" there are still relationship rules and emotional attachments can grow very deep. And when these "parallel marriage" affairs end--and they almost all end--one feels grief and loss as one would in a sanctioned relationship--sometimes more so. In an affair, almost everything is felt, experienced and lived with super-intensity.
Brokenlady Posted February 1, 2010 Posted February 1, 2010 (edited) (That's not a diss, it's a genuine question. If any OW feels she IS settling for less, is that because she knows that if she insists on more she'll be booted and she'd rather have what she's got than nothing, or because she's not willing to take that risk and prefers to let it seem as if she's happy with what she gets so as to keep the peace / keep the piece...? ) It's likely a combination of both. When xDM was still with his xW, I looked at it as though he was "unable" to give me more. But, it was with the understanding that the situation was going to change. After he moved out, I had a harder time with his emotional unavilability (because he was by then finally physically available). I eventually came to the same conclusion - inability - but for different reasons. When he was living with his xW, he was unable to meet my needs because of his situation and competing obligations. After he moved and divorced, I realized that it was that he was unable to meet my emotional needs because he had such serious emotional problems within himself. In retrospect, this was true all along. And, by extension, I figure it's likely his xW wasn't getting her emotional needs met even prior to the A in part because he didn't have that availability to give. So, yes, I did accept less than I wanted, but only because there was the expectation of change. And he did change, some - just not enough to be able to meet my needs. I guess I miscalculated what he would be capable of changing (for the sake of our relationship). I still love him and care for him deeply as a person - it's just that I can see he isn't going to be able to meet my needs in a relationship. Edited February 1, 2010 by Brokenlady
jwi71 Posted February 1, 2010 Posted February 1, 2010 Ah - but is that because it's structurally not possible for someone in their position to get it, or because they're prepared to settle for less - so are only given less? Possibly. We do know that some OW DO get their man though (ahem) . I think the question as you originally asked is bass ackward. The balance of power - in terms of an OW/OM getting what they want is NOT dependent on the OM/OW at all. That is to say...they have LITTLE influence on the outcome. Seen THAT too many times. Rather, the outcome is determine solely by the MM/MW. If THEY choose to leave, then the OM/OW gets what they want. But they don't actually get it...its GIVEN by the MM/MW. Again, the power and choice to deliver what the OM/OW want is NOT theirs but the MM/MW. Rarely do the MM/MW want out and we end up forums full of what we have here...OW waiting. Lets face it, the OW can't file for D...that's up to the MM (or the BS). The question then is...how much influence does the OW/OM have? I say not much. If the MM is ready to go...they go and quickly. If not...well...you know - just read. So...in your terms owoman, is it structural or settling...its BOTH. If the OW is willing to accept "the scraps"...then that's what she gets. In fact, that's usually ALL she gets...the stolen moments. Of course, the A ends if the OW grows a spine and makes a demand (and we all know how often the OW wins that - not often). Fearing the loss, she settles...accepting what little she gets (as compared to a legitimate M with the MM). The MM has it structured like I alluded to above...up to him to file for D or not. Usually they aren't interested in a D. And once the OW is hooked, why bother anyway...the OW isn't leaving nor is the BS...no reason to for the MM to change. I'm not proofing that...and Im sure it rambles. Hope it was somewhat coherent. (That's not a diss, it's a genuine question. If any OW feels she IS settling for less, is that because she knows that if she insists on more she'll be booted and she'd rather have what she's got than nothing, or because she's not willing to take that risk and prefers to let it seem as if she's happy with what she gets so as to keep the peace / keep the piece...? ) I like this as well. The OW, for fear of losing what little she has, accepts it. You already know the justifications and excuses made by some OW(meaning read them here...not a dig). It is THIS that prompts the self esteem issue as relating to OW. What makes it REALLY sad is when they want it all, and accept less...sometimes for years. That's the sad part. I like this thread and Im sure I need to clarify...back later...
LucreziaBorgia Posted February 1, 2010 Posted February 1, 2010 I can agree with most said here. Generally speaking when people have affairs, that is exactly what they want: an affair, NOT a divorce - and so it drags on and on and on, year after year after year with excuse after excuse after excuse as to why to delay the divorce... When they do want to divorce and already had that in mind prior to the affair, and then cheat their way out of their marriages, the timeline from married to divorced is considerably shorter.
Fallen Angel Posted February 1, 2010 Posted February 1, 2010 Spark, SOME As are like that, but not all. FA's description of hers sounds like more vomiting children and bill paying than hot sex (sorry to speak for you FA - and sorry if I misrepresent your proportion of hot sex! ) while there are others that are entirely moonlight and roses. Mine were, as I suppose most are, somewhere in between. We'd spend extended periods of time together, when we'd live together as any "normal" couple, doing all those boring couply things... and there'd be times we'd spend apart, getting together only for special occasions, holidays and treats, when we'd put on our glad rags and razzle the night away. Planning was a mix. He's into planning, in all aspects of his life. I'm more chaotic and spontaneous. He's more the book plane tickets and hotels and diarise kind, I'm more the pick-up-the-phone-and-dial - "meet me at xxx in 10 minutes" kind. Still. He never knows what he's coming home to when he goes to the office AAAAAAAAAAAhahahaha.. I am gonna show him that and tell him I need a "date night" soon!!! lol.. sad part is, he has paid hotel rooms often times when he is in my town, and yet rather than being there we are sitting at my kitchen table eating my homemade meatloaf and listening to "tales of a kindergarden girl" or "sixth grade girl drama" or "I was a teenaged boy who knew it all" and laughing and passing the salad dressing and then playing silly games like "Are you smarter than a fifth grader?" (often the answer sadly is NO) or "Blockus".. until the kids go to bed and he and I cuddle up together on my bed, and watch the news or the history channel and sometimes, not always but often enough these days to keep me smiling, have some really HOT SEX and then fall asleep in each others arms until the alarm goes off (often an hour earlier than we have to get up) so that we have that extra hour together just cuddling and talking and sometimes having really hot sex before we have to get up and get the kids up. LOL
White Flower Posted February 1, 2010 Posted February 1, 2010 Point taken but I don't think I'm the only one. IIRC GEL posted elsewhere on the forum that the reason she didn't suspect that her now-H was M was that their A was exactly like any other R. She had the same access, frequency and quality of treatment as she'd expect in any other R. He was just like any other BF in that regard. She demanded - and received - the same kind of R she'd want from any other guy. So I don't think that it's just that I'm some kind of freak show.... This thread wasn't designed to inflame (though some have taken it that way) but rather to ask - IF someone sees an A as having to be different to any other R, how would it have to be different, and what would make it different? Both Spark and Lizzie have mentioned planning / spontaneity, and I can imagine that this might be an issue - but is it an issue because Lizzie (or whomever) CHOOSES to manage their A that way, or is it an issue because structurally spontaneity is impossible / very difficult in an A? I guess behind my thinking is... people get the Rs they settle for. If so much more is possible, why settle for less? Or, conversely, if something ISN'T possible, why hold out hope for it and continually face disappointment? I suppose I'm just curious as to what the actual limitations and possibilities are, beyond the hopes and the limits we set for ourselves in our Rs. (oh and yes, our anniversary is coming up shortly. I'd send you an invite, but it's a celebration just for two ) In every R there are expecatations to be negotiated and fulfilled. Sometimes we are pleasantly surprised by a fulfilled expectation and others dismayed at a failed one. This happens in both kinds of Rs. One thing that stands out most to me, being 1 month in to Low Contact, is the date-like feeling of the A. I'm sure it happens in some Ms but 4 years of my A felt like 4 years of pure dating bliss. Like Spark1111 said it was always about being your best and making the most of each minute together. There were no 2am throw-up sessions and though I know I would wholeheartedly accept times like that I didn't get to prove myself in that kind of hour. He may never find out and measure that against what he has at home now. That is a real difference between an A and a regular R--not having the chance to prove to your greatest ability how compatible you truly are as a couple.
greengoddess Posted February 1, 2010 Posted February 1, 2010 AAAAAAAAAAAhahahaha.. I am gonna show him that and tell him I need a "date night" soon!!! lol.. sad part is, he has paid hotel rooms often times when he is in my town, and yet rather than being there we are sitting at my kitchen table eating my homemade meatloaf and listening to "tales of a kindergarden girl" or "sixth grade girl drama" or "I was a teenaged boy who knew it all" and laughing and passing the salad dressing and then playing silly games like "Are you smarter than a fifth grader?" (often the answer sadly is NO) or "Blockus".. until the kids go to bed and he and I cuddle up together on my bed, and watch the news or the history channel and sometimes, not always but often enough these days to keep me smiling, have some really HOT SEX and then fall asleep in each others arms until the alarm goes off (often an hour earlier than we have to get up) so that we have that extra hour together just cuddling and talking and sometimes having really hot sex before we have to get up and get the kids up. LOL see this is where the totally different values come in. I would not let a man stay overnight in my bedroom in front of my children especially a very sexually impressionable sixth grader and especially not a married man. I think it is the wrong message to show the kids.
White Flower Posted February 1, 2010 Posted February 1, 2010 Also, The only thing I think I settled for (actually continued to fight for) was more time. Had we been M, I would have fought for more time away;). Life is about balance. Enjoy that celebration for two OWoman!
anne1707 Posted February 1, 2010 Posted February 1, 2010 One thing that stands out most to me, being 1 month in to Low Contact, is the date-like feeling of the A. I'm sure it happens in some Ms but 4 years of my A felt like 4 years of pure dating bliss. When I was going through IC following my affair, I equated the three years to three months of dating (in a fully open relationship). The affair was not based on bills, food shopping, routine life, etc. It was all about making that extra effort the way you did when you first started dating. Though I can actually say that I learnt something from this - my H and I now have dates and make that time for each other.
White Flower Posted February 1, 2010 Posted February 1, 2010 When I was going through IC following my affair, I equated the three years to three months of dating (in a fully open relationship). The affair was not based on bills, food shopping, routine life, etc. It was all about making that extra effort the way you did when you first started dating. Though I can actually say that I learnt something from this - my H and I now have dates and make that time for each other. I'm curious, how long are you past D-day and recovery into your M? Do you think based on your knowledge of the A dynamic (date-like quality/quality time together) that you and your H will always 'date'? It sounds like a good plan to me.
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