White Flower Posted January 31, 2010 Posted January 31, 2010 What a sad existance that must be, to know that someone stays with you not because they love you, but because of some power you yield over them. Personally, I would rather spend forever alone, than one minute with someone who was only there because they were afraid not to be. I agree wholeheartedly. When I finally realized my H just didn't love me anymore (and wouldn't tell me) I knew I had to be the one to file and get things going. He would have stayed forever and made us both stew in his anger and unhappiness but he still would have yielded control over me which I believe was more important to him. I just don't know how a BS looks themselves in the mirror and is satisfied with making their unhappy spouse stay. It is almost evil. At the very least, it is selfish. I agree with you about spending forever alone over being with someone who was afraid to leave me.
Angel1111 Posted January 31, 2010 Posted January 31, 2010 This is my opinion. I don't think anyone hates to see an OW "get her man". Its just that "her man" didn't seem to do any real work on fixing his "issues". I know that there ARE some posters that do hate to see an OW "get her man", but I am not one of them. Thinking more about your question, I think a lot of people don't like it when the MM leaves his wife for the OW because they don't like to think that it could happen to them. I know that when xMM was chasing me pretty hard - talking to me on the phone a lot, visiting the office - it ignited some severe jealousy and reactions from the women in my office. xMM was the president of my company and he lived in another city, so visits to the office were rare and suddenly they were increasing. He also was pretty obvious about his attraction to me and it just plain pissed off all the married women in the office. A few years later, the husband of one of the most venomous women in the office kissed me at the company xmas party. And all that night, he had made a point of trying to talk to me. After she left the company, I made sure she heard about it through someone else. Her pious attitude about how perfect her marriage was truly annoyed me. It was nothing but a show. These are the people who don't want to admit that their marriage can fall apart in a heartbeat; these are the people who think it's the most horrible thing in the world when the MM leaves for the OW.
jennie-jennie Posted January 31, 2010 Posted January 31, 2010 See the thing is that in my opinion every relationship has a window of time. During this time effort and work can be put into the relationship to change it. When that window of opportunity has closed, it is not possible anymore. For the MM in an extramarital relationship, the window may already be closed. FO, I said "window of time", not "time limit". And yes, that window might very well last until one of the couple dies. An example to clarify what I mean: I was with my SO for 25 years. He never wanted an as intimate and close relationship as I did. Now he is offering me what I once wanted. But I have moved on, I love another man. My SO had 25 years to give me this, he missed his opportunity, his window of time. It is hard for him to realize that it is too late. He thought I would never leave him.
pureinheart Posted January 31, 2010 Posted January 31, 2010 I agree wholeheartedly. When I finally realized my H just didn't love me anymore (and wouldn't tell me) I knew I had to be the one to file and get things going. He would have stayed forever and made us both stew in his anger and unhappiness but he still would have yielded control over me which I believe was more important to him. I just don't know how a BS looks themselves in the mirror and is satisfied with making their unhappy spouse stay. It is almost evil. At the very least, it is selfish. I agree with you about spending forever alone over being with someone who was afraid to leave me. Wow WF, that is like way unreal...meaning controlling someone is more important than being happy...that statement of reality of certain matters makes me very sad. My ex WS was very unhappy with me, we did nothing but fight, it was ugly and I am ashamed that my kids saw that behavior...one thing is for certain, my kids know what NOT to do because of some my dumb a** situations. He just didn't come home one night and I called to find out why he was not home yet, he said he wasn't coming home...I think I talked to him a couple more times concerning the D after that. I don't want anyone who doesnot want me, and also agree with being alone for the rest of my life if need be, rather than to be miserable and unwanted.
OWoman Posted January 31, 2010 Posted January 31, 2010 Yup, I've seen that. And I've also seen a lot of MM who are simply bored with their W's and want something different sexually to put the "zing" back into their lives - but they don't want to give up the perks of having a W at home to take care of them (not to mention splitting everything in half financially). Hence the subterfuge and deception that's intricately involved with most A's. I'd guess, though, that these are not typically the type of MM who leave for the OW, ie those under discussion in this thread.
pureinheart Posted January 31, 2010 Posted January 31, 2010 FO, I said "window of time", not "time limit". And yes, that window might very well last until one of the couple dies. An example to clarify what I mean: I was with my SO for 25 years. He never wanted an as intimate and close relationship as I did. Now he is offering me what I once wanted. But I have moved on, I love another man. My SO had 25 years to give me this, he missed his opportunity, his window of time. It is hard for him to realize that it is too late. He thought I would never leave him. What a trip, only until you leave does he want to give you what you needed all along. That is sad.
jennie-jennie Posted January 31, 2010 Posted January 31, 2010 What a trip, only until you leave does he want to give you what you needed all along. That is sad. It is. And now he is asking, "How could you just trade me for another man?" Duh.
OWoman Posted January 31, 2010 Posted January 31, 2010 There are men who try for years, sometimes a couple of decades, to get the marriage back on track, and just have no success. Most intelligent men of character (that is --not "players") seek to do what they can, sincerely. Most men do not want divorce. Should they fall into a serious affair, it is more a profound emotional need that drives it than "just" sex Agree. I'd imagine even more so where there are children involved. I agree with this when it comes to long term marriages. I'm finding that the gentlemen that I reference earlier in this thread weren't married for "decades" so they don't really qualify for what you are saying. How long does someone have to stay in an unhappy M, trying but getting nowhere, before they qualify? Some may be able to sustain it for decades, living with low-grade depression but still functioning, while others may experience a far more acute response and succumb after years rather than decades. Perhaps even months, in extreme cases. Perhaps it's just the circles I move in, but the men I know well enough to know such details about, are all "intelligent men of character" (as OE describes) and those who've sought As have all resorted to them only after making sustained, invested effort in restoring their Ms - and not because they wanted to exit the M (if they knew that, they'd simply have done it) but because they wanted to explore what next steps or alternatives were possible and open to them before making up their mind on what to do next. It wasn't an "easy" option for them (as opposed to the "hard" option of working on the M) but rather the result of soul searching, deep consideration and much inner debate (or even discussion with friends or counsellors). OTOH, one guy admitted that he had considered the problems in his 1st M to be related to his 1st W, but only after D and a 2nd M did he realise that those problems were inherent in M - were related to the structure and the constraints of the institution of M rather than the individuals within it. He said, had he known or realised that earlier, that he would not have D'd his 1st W but would have stuck it out with her - and had an A on the side. (There was no infidelity in his 1st M, but he did succumb to it in his 2nd). It's not quite the same thing as the men referred to in the OP, but a kind of similar dynamic....
pureinheart Posted January 31, 2010 Posted January 31, 2010 Thinking more about your question, I think a lot of people don't like it when the MM leaves his wife for the OW because they don't like to think that it could happen to them. I know that when xMM was chasing me pretty hard - talking to me on the phone a lot, visiting the office - it ignited some severe jealousy and reactions from the women in my office. xMM was the president of my company and he lived in another city, so visits to the office were rare and suddenly they were increasing. He also was pretty obvious about his attraction to me and it just plain pissed off all the married women in the office. A few years later, the husband of one of the most venomous women in the office kissed me at the company xmas party. And all that night, he had made a point of trying to talk to me. After she left the company, I made sure she heard about it through someone else. Her pious attitude about how perfect her marriage was truly annoyed me. It was nothing but a show. These are the people who don't want to admit that their marriage can fall apart in a heartbeat; these are the people who think it's the most horrible thing in the world when the MM leaves for the OW. Oh yes, I found not just the women, but the men too....omg the comments that people made, blatent and ugly remarks, completely uncalled for...most of it due to the fact that we had such a major connection....some suspected EA, although noone really knew. They saw that we cared for each other and were very close, this was not an uncommon thing as people were paired up at my job and this happened with the women and men also that were paired together... Angel, people play games on the job and when they see that one has favor for another, especially in your circumstances (or ex circumstances) for some reason it is just irritates them to no end that they do not have someone (or that particular person) giving them favor...it is jealousy at it's ugliest. When ever I hear "perfect M", I know something is very, very wrong...now happy/wonderful/warm fuzzies most of the time ya...but perfect is a rehersed stage act deserving of an Acadamy Award. This thread has caused me to have a better understanding of SO's exW...she wrote me threatening emails (which was really ridiculous as I had called everything off telling him basically to BE M'ED and stay the F away from me) after the fact as if this would scare me off? She stated that she had kept the family together for X amount of years. At that point I realised that she was not able to understand her portion of responsibility concerning the breakdown of their M. I think she at some level realised that their game was over and was in some sort of rebellion. How weird.
pureinheart Posted January 31, 2010 Posted January 31, 2010 It is. And now he is asking, "How could you just trade me for another man?" Duh. Jennie, I literally cried when I read this as it is so typical...I felt a deep sadness when reading this. If I ever saw why A's exist, this is it.
pureinheart Posted January 31, 2010 Posted January 31, 2010 How long does someone have to stay in an unhappy M, trying but getting nowhere, before they qualify? Some may be able to sustain it for decades, living with low-grade depression but still functioning, while others may experience a far more acute response and succumb after years rather than decades. Perhaps even months, in extreme cases. Ok, now I am reaching a level of understanding that I did not expect tonight. It is true, we do not know exactly what another has been through. MY SO was severely depressed, so torn, so hurting, so lost and during the D I took it personal and should not have. He was this way when I met him, yet hid it well with a joking/onery behavior, although in time I began to see the hurt and that is when I suggested D. He feared he would loose his kids, even though they were grown, because of him working so much his exW had priddy much raised them and instilled her value system, which I don't believe included him. He was scared and felt all alone when he was at home...yet that was his safe place...wow, his world was not safe anywhere.
hopeless4u Posted January 31, 2010 Posted January 31, 2010 I don't think it's off topic, I think it is related. People tend to hang on because life is good for them. They don't want that to change even if that means forcing the other to feel guilty for wanting to leave. The thing that gets me is the threats. I'll make the kids hate you if you leave. You'll lose the sacraments in the Church if you leave. You'll lose at least half of everything and ALL of our friends. I hate that kind of BS and I mean B**ls**t. I never did that to my exH nor did he do that to me and he is a narcissist. I expected him to do it but he was pretty stand-up when it came right down to it. So yeah, a MM is going to feel guilt if his W makes these kinds of threats when he says he wants to leave. I don't get the satisfaction in making those threats. Perhaps it is a control issue. 'I made you stay AND made you say you love me even when you don't. That takes some kind of control. This is right where my xMM is at the moment. His W has said she loves him and can't live without him. She has made him tell there kids (19yrs&24yrs) about everything to do with the A and their friends and family. She even planted the seed in his mind of suicide. If she does anything now everyone will blame him. How can he leave with that on his shoulders, even if he wanted to??
bentnotbroken Posted January 31, 2010 Posted January 31, 2010 This is right where my xMM is at the moment. His W has said she loves him and can't live without him. She has made him tell there kids (19yrs&24yrs) about everything to do with the A and their friends and family. She even planted the seed in his mind of suicide. If she does anything now everyone will blame him. How can he leave with that on his shoulders, even if he wanted to?? Opening the door and walking out. A suicide would be her choice, just like having an A was his. He knew what he the consequences would be for cheating, she knows what the consequences would be for suicide.
hopeless4u Posted January 31, 2010 Posted January 31, 2010 Opening the door and walking out. A suicide would be her choice, just like having an A was his. He knew what he the consequences would be for cheating, she knows what the consequences would be for suicide. Yes I agree and have said just that but I guess when it comes down to it he just can't, although he is seeing his W's emotional manipulating ways a bit clearer now. I know a lot of what he has told me could be lies but I also know that some of it is truth as his W has confirmed it.
bentnotbroken Posted January 31, 2010 Posted January 31, 2010 Yes I agree and have said just that but I guess when it comes down to it he just can't, although he is seeing his W's emotional manipulating ways a bit clearer now. I know a lot of what he has told me could be lies but I also know that some of it is truth as his W has confirmed it. Is it possible that her emotional state is a product in part to his lying and cheating and he has only himself to blame. The truth would have been so much easier in the long run for everyone. But a lot of people don't have the stomach for the truth. JMO
hopeless4u Posted January 31, 2010 Posted January 31, 2010 Is it possible that her emotional state is a product in part to his lying and cheating and he has only himself to blame. The truth would have been so much easier in the long run for everyone. But a lot of people don't have the stomach for the truth. JMO Again I agree about the truth being better, I was telling him that for 2 yrs as I knew it was only a matter of time before we got caught. Her emotional state has always been a bit shakey, this is not the first time their M has been in trouble, although this is the 1st time it has been due to an A. They have been in and out of MC for 20yrs pretty much. He has been close to leaving a few times before I came along and she has pretty much had mental breakdowns each time. I'm not having a go at her or being nasty towards her state of mind, she really does think that she can not live without him.
Virgo1982 Posted January 31, 2010 Posted January 31, 2010 So can we all agree that some men say they did not understand what was happening in their M before the A and some men understand their M and choose to have an A? I can. What we will never know is how long is too long to try, unless we choose a time frame for our own relationships. What is acceptable for us? Is it comforting to know my H simply didn't know what he was missing or would I want a man who knew what was missing, communicated his needs to his S, and chose an A out of frustration? You never know what will happen, but I prefer the latter. Also, I was the one who said in certain situations the BS could use the A as a distraction. If he/she believes they have been the best S they could be and the WS cheated on them, the couple would then focus on the A rather than the issues that were there before the A. 'How could you replace me with another man/woman?' would be the query du jour. Thanks, J.
Fallen Angel Posted January 31, 2010 Posted January 31, 2010 Is it possible that her emotional state is a product in part to his lying and cheating and he has only himself to blame. The truth would have been so much easier in the long run for everyone. But a lot of people don't have the stomach for the truth. JMO So her emotional state (ie threatening suicide, depression) is HIS FAULT, but his emotional state (ie seeking out an affair that makes him happy) can not be HER FAULT? Talk about a double standard. How about rather than either of their emotional states being attributed to someone else, they both be responsible for their own emotional states? How about they are both two grown people who are making poor choices and they both need to own up to that and OWN that? After all, "no one can make you happy (sad, angry, insert any emotion you choose here), except yourself". A mantra that is oft repeated here. (only when aimed at trying to convince an OW/OM to get out of their A of course!) No one can impose any feelings on you, without your consent. If he is feeling unhappy, it is his fault for not changing the situation. If she is feeling suicidal and depressed, it is her fault for not changing the situation. Period!
White Flower Posted January 31, 2010 Posted January 31, 2010 This is right where my xMM is at the moment. His W has said she loves him and can't live without him. She has made him tell there kids (19yrs&24yrs) about everything to do with the A and their friends and family. She even planted the seed in his mind of suicide. If she does anything now everyone will blame him. How can he leave with that on his shoulders, even if he wanted to?? It just makes me sick how some people will go to manipulate their spouses, particularly wives. We usually see women stooping this low to get what they want. Sometimes it is true, they are depressed and may even be suicidal but I reckon it is threatened much more than it is real. MM was asked by his counselor to write a list of things he would miss if his W left him or he D'd her. He would miss his adult kids who live on their own and a few of the things his W does around the house. He did not mention ONE THING he would miss about HER. Why would he miss his adult kids if his W left him?????? That would be because she would force him to tell them about me (because she doesn't know about all the others) and she woud try to influence them to disconnect from him. That is selfishness at its worst. I can't stand my exH. He is not paying all that is owed me and I am suffering financially. If I wanted to, I could easily show my kids why I can't give them extras and point the finger at him. Two of my kids call him by his first name because they can't stand him already-he's just so mean. But STILL I do everything I can to encourage them to call him dad and be a part of his life. I have no parents, I know what it's like to not have a dad to call when times are rough or happy so I WILL NOT encourage them to cut their dad off. He was a pretty good father in their formative years and I can't wipe that out just because I don't love him anymore or just because he hurt me. So, BS should not cancel all the years their WS was a great father just because he cheated on HER. Her kids were never affected by his cheating. (I know what you'll say, but they really didn't know so they weren't). The kids should never be dragged into the problems of the M, especially after the kids have moved out.
Jeff1962 Posted January 31, 2010 Posted January 31, 2010 Its about the MM. It just comes across as if he didn't really try to save his marriage or put any real work into it. Having the affair is the first sign of him not really working on it anymore. So, what about the MM's wife? Is she not to be held responsible as well? Of course it was HIS choice to cheat. Maybe she did'nt listen to his needs. Maybe she ignored the fact that there was a problem with their relationship. Maybe she fell out of love or was caught up in life with the whole family deal and felt overwhelmed. Maybe she did not feel sexy anymore. Maybe HE is just an as*hole. To seek emotional or sexual validation outside of marriage can only further destroy said relationship. Show some honor for yourself. Ask for a divorce then move on with another single person.
OpenBook Posted January 31, 2010 Posted January 31, 2010 So, what about the MM's wife? Is she not to be held responsible as well? Of course it was HIS choice to cheat. Maybe she did'nt listen to his needs. Maybe she ignored the fact that there was a problem with their relationship. Maybe she fell out of love or was caught up in life with the whole family deal and felt overwhelmed. Maybe she did not feel sexy anymore. Maybe HE is just an as*hole. Warning!! Danger Danger Will Robinson!! I already tried to point that out (post #21) and was accused of attacking (post #34). Good luck with that buddy.
pureinheart Posted January 31, 2010 Posted January 31, 2010 This is right where my xMM is at the moment. His W has said she loves him and can't live without him. She has made him tell there kids (19yrs&24yrs) about everything to do with the A and their friends and family. She even planted the seed in his mind of suicide. If she does anything now everyone will blame him. How can he leave with that on his shoulders, even if he wanted to?? Yes, the emotional/kid hold (even if they are grown, it doesn't matter as there could be grandchilren involved), this is some of what happened to SO....it works sometimes too...
bentnotbroken Posted January 31, 2010 Posted January 31, 2010 So her emotional state (ie threatening suicide, depression) is HIS FAULT, but his emotional state (ie seeking out an affair that makes him happy) can not be HER FAULT? Talk about a double standard. How about rather than either of their emotional states being attributed to someone else, they both be responsible for their own emotional states? How about they are both two grown people who are making poor choices and they both need to own up to that and OWN that? After all, "no one can make you happy (sad, angry, insert any emotion you choose here), except yourself". A mantra that is oft repeated here. (only when aimed at trying to convince an OW/OM to get out of their A of course!) No one can impose any feelings on you, without your consent. If he is feeling unhappy, it is his fault for not changing the situation. If she is feeling suicidal and depressed, it is her fault for not changing the situation. Period! Where did I say it was his fault? I believe I stated in a previous post that if she committed suicide it would be her choice, just like having the A was his choice and she will never be responsible for that. I said some of her emotional state in "part" is due to the lying. He is not now or ever going to be responsible for her choices.
Cliche Posted February 1, 2010 Posted February 1, 2010 Well, in the case of my SO--who was formerly my MM--his personal view was that his marriage was over when he met me. He did work on his marriage for about 10 years before he finally gave up. The reasons why he didn't leave his marriage officially prior to getting into another relationship are his, and you or I may or may not agree that they were valid reasons. But to suggest that he had unresolved issues, didn't care about his marriage or didn't care about his ex-wife is false. He tried. And the issues that ended his marriage never resolved. And like most normal human beings, he sought a loving, caring, mutually satisfying relationship. And he and I have been a part of that 4 years running so far. Relationships are so complex. I understand the desire to try to make relationships black and white. It feels safer for all of us if we can say X is right and Y is wrong. But life just isn't that way. Anyway, while I do know men who just up and left a decent marriage and loving wife for an OW without much work or care, that just isn't the case 100%, or even 90% of the time. Sometimes an affair is just the end of the end.
Fallen Angel Posted February 1, 2010 Posted February 1, 2010 Where did I say it was his fault? Umm.. RIGHT HERE!!! Is it possible that her emotional state is a product in part to his lying and cheating and he has only himself to blame. The truth would have been so much easier in the long run for everyone. But a lot of people don't have the stomach for the truth. JMO " he has only himself to blame." My point is, that you are trying to lay the blame on him for "her emotional state". Really, it doesn't matter if she offs herself or not, we all agree that is her choice. But you are blaming her "emotional state" on him. I propose that if he can take even a small portion of the blame for her emotional state and thereby some small culpability if she decides to throw herself under the nearest Amtrak, then by your own premise, we must lay at least some portion of the blame for his "emotional state" at her feet thereby making her at least somewhat culpable in his affair.. right? You can't have it both ways.. either they are each responsible for the others emotional states, or niether is responsible for the others emotional states. So which is it?
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