I am super. How are you?

January 31, 2010

Further more, OP asked her to 'hang out' outside of work. He didn't actually ask her out. It wasn't a clear invitation to a date. He didn't say, "Would you like to go to dinner with me on Tuesday"

January 31, 2010

Bashing a girl for not being interested in immature.

In some people's eyes, they'd rather not hear straight rejection. I've been asked to hang out by a guy for platonic reasons only. There are people out there capable of having opposite sex friendships. That's maturity.

It's pretty obvious that based on what OP typed, he was plainly asking her about the possibility of a date, if not an actual date. They have been flirting at work. He knows it. She knows it. We know it.

What's so obnoxious about the "only as friends right," is that it reveals that she thinks it's her prerogative to dictate terms in response to an invitation from someone she doesn't know well, while simultaneously passing the veiled insult "I will hang out with you, but don't see you as dating material." Moreover, she doesn't care one bit about the inherent rudeness, as she perceives that it is her privilege to treat men who express interest rudely. Finally, she is signalling very transparently an attitude of "I am willing to accept your attention, but only on my terms." Bleh

I understand that any time a man takes issue with a woman's behavior, whether he calls it immature or some other adjective, he's BASHING her right? Well then just add the above estimate of her as rude and immature to the pile of hideous, misogynistic, reprehensible hate crimes that I have perpetrated here in my campaign to bash women

January 31, 2010

I understand that any time a man takes issue with a woman's behavior, whether he calls it immature or some other adjective, he's BASHING her right? Well then just add the above estimate of her as rude and immature to the pile of hideous, misogynistic, reprehensible hate crimes that I have perpetrated here in my campaign to bash women

Very well said sir!

January 31, 2010

It's pretty obvious that based on what OP typed, he was plainly asking her about the possibility of a date, if not an actual date. They have been flirting at work. He knows it. She knows it. We know it.

What's so obnoxious about the "only as friends right," is that it reveals that she thinks it's her prerogative to dictate terms in response to an invitation from someone she doesn't know well, while simultaneously passing the veiled insult "I will hang out with you, but don't see you as dating material." Moreover, she doesn't care one bit about the inherent rudeness, as she perceives that it is her privilege to treat men who express interest rudely. Finally, she is signalling very transparently an attitude of "I am willing to accept your attention, but only on my terms." Bleh

I understand that any time a man takes issue with a woman's behavior, whether he calls it immature or some other adjective, he's BASHING her right? Well then just add the above estimate of her as rude and immature to the pile of hideous, misogynistic, reprehensible hate crimes that I have perpetrated here in my campaign to bash women

...or...she didn't want to lead the OP on and it came from a genuine interest in not misleading him. I don't see what's so obnoxious about that.

When my BF first asked me out, I explained that I was on a "dating hiatus" (which I was) and that brunch sounded fun, but it would have to be in the platonic realm and I totally understood if that didn't sound like a good time to him. The last thing I wanted was for him to stoke hopes of something developing when I wasn't in a dating mindset at all - I liked him as a person and didn't want to hurt his feelings, but at the time I also didn't see it developing into anything romantic. And it was very clear at that point that he was into me. So, gee - was it obnoxious of me to say so? Should I have gone to brunch, let him pay, and let him build up his hopes, only indirectly or passive-aggressively hinting later that I didn't want to date him?

How many threads are on this board of the "does s/he like me or not" variety, because one or both people is unwilling to communicate clearly about what they want or don't want?

As it turns out, a few months later, when I was no longer on the guyaitus and had spent more time with him, I realized what a terrific guy he is and we're now going strong.

But - please. It is NOT obnoxious, or immature, to be clear about one's wants or needs. Sorry the OP was rejected, but to frame the issue as one of deciding on whose "terms" their social engagement should have taken place is silly.

Edited January 31, 2010 by sunshinegirl

January 31, 2010

It's pretty obvious that based on what OP typed, he was plainly asking her about the possibility of a date, if not an actual date. They have been flirting at work. He knows it. She knows it. We know it.

Who says she knows it? Who says she was flirting back? Like I said before.. when a person really likes another, simple friendliness can be confused with flirting. Hanging out is a friend term. It's not going out on a date. The problem here, is that there's a few posters, including you, who go on and on about being rejected for this or that, so much that you have it set in your heads that women are evil. You take the male's side regardless. You are not unbiased.

What's so obnoxious about the "only as friends right," is that it reveals that she thinks it's her prerogative to dictate terms in response to an invitation from someone she doesn't know well, while simultaneously passing the veiled insult "I will hang out with you, but don't see you as dating material." Moreover, she doesn't care one bit about the inherent rudeness, as she perceives that it is her privilege to treat men who express interest rudely. Finally, she is signalling very transparently an attitude of "I am willing to accept your attention, but only on my terms." Bleh

What is the difference between "I don't hang out with you at all" opposed to "Just as friends?"

The first is just being terribly blunt and could hurt one's feelings. The second is clarifying that at the time she does not want to be anything more then friends. So OP is free to move on.

Besides, OP is on an adventure to discover as many beautiful women as possible. Sounds like he is just putting another notch on the belt.

I understand that any time a man takes issue with a woman's behavior, whether he calls it immature or some other adjective, he's BASHING her right? Well then just add the above estimate of her as rude and immature to the pile of hideous, misogynistic, reprehensible hate crimes that I have perpetrated here in my campaign to bash women

January 31, 2010

...or...she didn't want to lead the OP on and it came from a genuine interest in not misleading him. I don't see what's so obnoxious about that.

Unless she is married or involved, why on earth is it her duty to worry about misleading someone? That's being a bit presumptuous (as stated earlier) don't you think? She either accepts the invitation or she doesn't, politely, and without adding conditions and baggage onto her acceptance. All the supposed concern for the guy's feelings makes for nice window dressing, but rings hollow as most rationalizations do.

It's plain that many women are utterly incapable of placing themselves in a man's shoes who is expected to approach and ask a woman out, or of viewing men's vulnerability in this situation with humanity or compassion. She cares not one whit about the confidence and courage necessary to ask her out, that he is sticking his neck out, but rather is entirely focused on some premature, presumptuous conditions originating in her own baggage. And she is perfectly willing to make the guy feel like sh*t just so long as she gets to tell him all about her baggage and her terms, nice.

And in so many cases, as I bet OP's reflects, she was warm and flirty and basking in all that "free" attention coming her way right up until the point that things threatened to get real, and suddenly she's back passing "like me-don't like me" notes in the fifth grade. Immaturity.

Those conditions make the man, who may have been steeling himself to ask her out, either completely puzzled (as OP) or make him feel like a lump of undesirable turd. Chumps go along with this, despite how it makes them feel, and some especially chumpy chumps will continue chasing princess when his best course is to move on, spin the wheel, and hope he digs up a -mature- courteous woman the next go-round.

Go and read the "dating etiquette" section of any manners handbook about how to reject or accept an invitation if you don't believe me, what I'm arguing here is not at all controversial.

So, gee - was it obnoxious of me to say so? Should I have gone to brunch, let him pay, and let him build up his hopes, only indirectly or passive-aggressively hinting later that I didn't want to date him?

Yep it was obnoxious. You should have said "no" and then if you wanted to build a friendship, build one. He let your immature condition on his invitation slide and shouldn't have. But true, many men don't play it smart in this respect. They are so clueless that they will accept any crumb, even a derogatory one, from a woman as long as they feel they are still in the running. Your BF beat the odds. Smart men don't bet against the odds, but instead move on to better odds.

How many threads are on this board of the "does s/he like me or not" variety, because one or both people is unwilling to communicate clearly about what they want or don't want?

Plenty, and the way to communicate that you want to go out with a man and find him interesting is a simple "yes," and if you don't, a simple "no." Couldn't be more clear and easy. No need to complicate that simple, elegant process at all, as all mature people instinctively know or learn.

but to frame the issue as one of deciding on whose "terms" should their social engagement have taken place is silly.

Of course it is, -to you- as a woman, because you will happily cling to the utter absurdity that adding conditions onto social invitations is polite, mature behavior as it benefits you... now, in this situation. At some other time, when the tables are turned and you ask people to do something and they add all sorts of conditions, you will just as happily cling to the notion that they are being rude in the face of your simple invitation. I understand perfectly how that works. Quite used to it actually.

January 31, 2010

The problem here, is that there's a few posters, including you, who go on and on about being rejected for this or that, so much that you have it set in your heads that women are evil. You take the male's side regardless. You are not unbiased.

Funny enough, most of my advice posts over the last few days have been in women's threads agreeing about shady behavior by their men, or disagreeing with men who seem unreasonable, but believe whatever you like, as I imagine you will anyway.

And no, I'm certainly not unbiased, my biases, just like yours, show through in lots of posts. We aren't journalists bound by some standards of journalistic ethics here (if those even exist any more).

My case is well made, I have the entire body of etiquette on my side. If a man asks you out, or asks you to do anything, or if -anyone at all- asks you to do -anything at all- by way of an invitation, formal, informal, hanging out or world cruise (and you don't know that person very well), if you want to accept, say merely "yes," and if not, say merely "no."

Adding conditions to a simple "yes" or "no" is rude, immature, and in cases similar to OP's often puzzling and insulting... not to mention entirely unnecessary.

Edited January 31, 2010 by meerkat stew

February 1, 2010

Wow-ee...a lot of well thought out and articulate points being made.

First off, I know she was flirting with me. I am also aware that many women just flirt for flirting sake or for whatever reason. For a while I even made it a point to get lost in my work away from her. She seemed to find her way to me most times. I just took that as her being just friendly and nothing more. I am not one to suddenly jump to conclusions like 'omg she likes me'. That's weird to me.

Second, I asked many of my other colleagues if anyone ever went out after work together. However, I am not going to lie. I was a bit hopeful I could get to know her better and maybe even become friends or something more (call me a dreamer). Call me naive if you will as well, but I kind of feel that when you are getting to know someone, the possibilities are endless? I don't know.

Unless I am mistaken, a woman can let you know she's not interested in a multitude of ways even on these interviews we call first dates or 'hanging out' sessions. I am not dense. I can figure it out. You don't have to spell it out for me right on the spot. I wasn't bashing her for being immature. I thought it was an immature response to a simple question. Heck, I even gave her an easy opt out before she answered because I knew her college was going to be starting soon. Also, you should've seen her face. The look on her face did more than the actual answer. I didn't think I would come away feeling like that from what was just a simple question. You can do and say immature things w/o actually being immature. She is not immature or rude. I couldn't see myself even being friends with such a person.

It irked me a little bit and made me feel awkward not because she outright pre-rejected me, but because it was just a, lets say, odd response to a simple question. Now that I think about it again, I would've much rather preferred a 'Oh no I can't..I am so busy right now'. I take clear definitive answers like that in stride.

It did remind me of high school to be honest. I have never hated on girls for rejecting me. When that was the case I would just think jokingly 'Your loss' and move on.

I think she might have read too far ahead of even me! Her response left me thinking : 'Woah woah...slow down buddy.'

Unless she is married or involved, why on earth is it her duty to worry about misleading someone? That's being a bit presumptuous (as stated earlier) don't you think? She either accepts the invitation or she doesn't, politely, and without adding conditions and baggage onto her acceptance. All the supposed concern for the guy's feelings makes for nice window dressing, but rings hollow as most rationalizations do.

I completely and utterly agree with this statement of yours especially meerkat. These forums are proving themselves to be full of learned individuals with many good points to make and knowledge to share.

Edited February 1, 2010 by A_guy

February 1, 2010

Just because she's not interested it, doesn't mean she lacks maturity (I love when posters find a reason to insult when they or another person get turned down).

1. You work together.
2. She could have a boyfriend.
3. Ten years can be huge to someone at that age.
4. She might sense you want to discover every beautiful woman out there.

Sometimes when we are infatuated with someone, we can misread friendliness for flirting. You might feel she's flirting because you like her. She might feel she's being friendly.

Sorry for the second post so soon.

1. You work together. -- only when we want too

2. She could have a boyfriend -- She doesn't

3. Ten years can be huge to someone at that age. -- Understood

4. She might sense you want to discover every beautiful woman out there -- damn straight!

I am not infatuated with her. I was having fun with my original post and tickling my own fancy so to speak. I am very careful about that.

February 1, 2010

A guy, consider asking out via phone going forward. Ask "would you like to go with me and do XYZ on Aday at BOclock?" and then be quiet, shut up entirely until she answers.

Other than 1) a conflicting plans excuse and her suggestion for a definite alternate (not just a vague raincheck), or 2) a need to get back to you by the end of the day (24 hours is more than enough time), anything other than "yes" or "no" that comes out of her mouth should be ignored as noise and not responded to in any way.

Never question or argue with noise or baggage or caveats, that's the path to madness Leave her to deal with that, it's not your problem thankfully.

If she says, "yes," say "great, will call you day of, looking forward to it," then get off the phone fairly soon after. If she says "no," or gives a qualified "yes" by adding any conditions or noise, just say "I understand, will just see you around then, take care," even if she says "yes but blablabla just friends, blablabla not ready for a relationship," you must let her know that you aren't going to be wasting time with someone who takes the very first date invitation as an opportunity to make you feel bad and puzzled by throwing out conditions on -your- invitation. Life is too short, focus the energy on a different prospect.

This sounds rigid and overly formulaic, but it's really the only way for a man to keep his sanity during what should be an extremely simple communication process that so often becomes cluttered with nutty noise and baggage. Since I started following the above, my dating life has improved greatly. Best wishes.

Edited February 1, 2010 by meerkat stew

February 1, 2010

So what if she just wanted to be friends with OP, saying yes would be misleading, and she wouldn't know if he's okay with that unless asking. But being clear on something is rude.

Also, if OP is asking out other co-workers, how is the girl suppose to know if it's a date or just a friendly invite?

Just because you can date co-workers, not every person is okay with it.

She set boundaries. She let OP know that she just wanted to be friends. There is nothing rude or wrong with that.

February 1, 2010

So what if she just wanted to be friends with OP, saying yes would be misleading, and she wouldn't know if he's okay with that unless asking. But being clear on something is rude.

Then she should say "no" to his invitation. The occasion of a guy asking a girl out is not the time to determine whether a friendship is possible. It's the time to say "yes" or "no" to a date. OP should have been more specific, but it is obvious that she considered his invitation as a date based on her reaction described in OP's later post.

Also, if OP is asking out other co-workers, how is the girl suppose to know if it's a date or just a friendly invite?

OP has said they were flirtatious with each other, and he thought there was a connection there, accept his word for that or not, up to you.

Just because you can date co-workers, not every person is okay with it.

And those folks who aren't ok with it should say "no" when asked out by a co-worker.

She set boundaries. She let OP know that she just wanted to be friends. There is nothing rude or wrong with that.

And a simple invitation is not the time for her to "set boundaries," merely the time she needs to decide whether to go out with OP or not.

She did not let OP know that she just wanted to be friends, but answered his invitation with a "yes, but" condition. Different things.

February 1, 2010

So what if she just wanted to be friends with OP, saying yes would be misleading, and she wouldn't know if he's okay with that unless asking. But being clear on something is rude.

Also, if OP is asking out other co-workers, how is the girl suppose to know if it's a date or just a friendly invite?

Just because you can date co-workers, not every person is okay with it.

She set boundaries. She let OP know that she just wanted to be friends. There is nothing rude or wrong with that.

I think you either disregarded my earlier post or still do not understand. I am not being snippy even though it might sound it.

The point was that I asked a simple question only to get a response indicative of preconditions already being set, as meerkat put it earlier. Date or friendly invite, it shouldn't really matter. It was just a question to try and get to know her better. Though I like to dream like everyone else, that doesn't mean I always have expectations trying to get to know someone better. Sometimes that's all it is, just trying to get to know someone better.

She thought I was just out to get in her pants or something right off the bat. That's how it felt to me. I wouldn't have cared if it was just friends. That's fine. I take 'rejection' just fine. I just felt she just went about it wrong, not rude and maybe not even immature. It really reminded me off HS the more I thought about it as I was walking away. That feeling alone sort of turned me off to the idea of even trying to be her friend at the time, but only staying friendly and professional. I always gave women credit for getting their point across with subtleties when they wanted to. I feel I am astute enough to read and figure out the cue's. Maybe she didn't want to bother with all that? who knows? who cares now...

She curtly set boundaries. She assumed that I wanted her or something. We are guilty of making those. You're hot and I want to get to know you better, but that's all. If I didn't know her to be a kind and genuine person then I could've easily construed her response as a very egotistic one.

February 1, 2010

Either you disregarded it or ignored it, I'm also responding to meerkat. Hence why I said OP and didn't talk directly to you. Either way..

How anyone could consider her response as wrong is just crazy. She wanted to be friends with you, she works with you, so she set boundaries. It's entering a different situation when you ask out a co-worker.

For those who think she was being immature or rude.. I'm willing to bet if this girl straight out said "No, I'm not interested" you'd be commenting on why it's because of this or that. There's no making you all happy when it comes to dating unless the girl bows down and goes along with how you see fit.

With that, I'm done debating here.

February 1, 2010

Well, thank you for your input then. Sincerely,

Edited February 1, 2010 by A_guy

February 1, 2010

"Just as friends, right?" = she is not interested

The fact that she half-assed agreed means that she likes the attention and is looking forward to a night out with more attention, more than likely on your dime.

I could be wrong, of course - but generally speaking when you get the "F" word right up front, the best thing to do is simply move on and not pursue further.

February 2, 2010

....... is looking forward to a night out with more attention, more than likely on your dime.

Hahaha no thanks~! I got 'friended'! Argh... It's ok. I am already working on 2 other girls, hehe...

February 2, 2010

Unless she is married or involved, why on earth is it her duty to worry about misleading someone? That's being a bit presumptuous (as stated earlier) don't you think? She either accepts the invitation or she doesn't, politely, and without adding conditions and baggage onto her acceptance. All the supposed concern for the guy's feelings makes for nice window dressing, but rings hollow as most rationalizations do.

It's plain that many women are utterly incapable of placing themselves in a man's shoes who is expected to approach and ask a woman out, or of viewing men's vulnerability in this situation with humanity or compassion. She cares not one whit about the confidence and courage necessary to ask her out, that he is sticking his neck out, but rather is entirely focused on some premature, presumptuous conditions originating in her own baggage. And she is perfectly willing to make the guy feel like sh*t just so long as she gets to tell him all about her baggage and her terms, nice.

And in so many cases, as I bet OP's reflects, she was warm and flirty and basking in all that "free" attention coming her way right up until the point that things threatened to get real, and suddenly she's back passing "like me-don't like me" notes in the fifth grade. Immaturity.

Those conditions make the man, who may have been steeling himself to ask her out, either completely puzzled (as OP) or make him feel like a lump of undesirable turd. Chumps go along with this, despite how it makes them feel, and some especially chumpy chumps will continue chasing princess when his best course is to move on, spin the wheel, and hope he digs up a -mature- courteous woman the next go-round.

Go and read the "dating etiquette" section of any manners handbook about how to reject or accept an invitation if you don't believe me, what I'm arguing here is not at all controversial.

Yep it was obnoxious. You should have said "no" and then if you wanted to build a friendship, build one. He let your immature condition on his invitation slide and shouldn't have. But true, many men don't play it smart in this respect. They are so clueless that they will accept any crumb, even a derogatory one, from a woman as long as they feel they are still in the running. Your BF beat the odds. Smart men don't bet against the odds, but instead move on to better odds.

Plenty, and the way to communicate that you want to go out with a man and find him interesting is a simple "yes," and if you don't, a simple "no." Couldn't be more clear and easy. No need to complicate that simple, elegant process at all, as all mature people instinctively know or learn.

Of course it is, -to you- as a woman, because you will happily cling to the utter absurdity that adding conditions onto social invitations is polite, mature behavior as it benefits you... now, in this situation. At some other time, when the tables are turned and you ask people to do something and they add all sorts of conditions, you will just as happily cling to the notion that they are being rude in the face of your simple invitation. I understand perfectly how that works. Quite used to it actually.

I guess we'll have to agree to disagree, then.

I've stated plainly my reasons for being so direct when my BF first asked me out; apparently you don't believe me because you keep making blanket statements about "all women" that don't even remotely describe me. My BF clearly didn't think I was "immature" to have done so; and in some ways it set a foundation of honesty and trust for our relationship, because he knows I will never jerk him around or be ambiguous. Besides, I have been in the position of being hurt by someone who only wanted friendship but I read more into it, and I would have appreciated a word of honesty much earlier than I got it. Rip the bandaid off, please, about your interest in being FRIENDS, don't make it a long, excruciating painful pull.

I suppose I could have turned around and claimed that any man who takes such extreme umbrage at a women being forthright and honest is a man who utterly lacks self-confidence, and further, that a man who can't conceive of a woman's "no" as coming from a place of concern is utterly immature - but I would never make such a blanket statement.

I'm simply too old to play games/be coy/wonder for weeks or months what's going on when it comes to relationships. I'll be honest about my level of interest in you, guy, and in return, I appreciate clarity in your level of interest about me. There, let's just get it out in the open and deal with it. You are absolutely right that my BF beat the odds, and in no way am I suggesting that the OP should pursue the friend angle with any hope that it will become romantic. For whatever reason, BF decided to do so, and over time I genuinely did change my mind about him. He successfully got out of the friend-zone, and I will agree this is very rare.

If nothing else, Meerkat, at least you and I know that we would never be a good match for each other.

Edited February 2, 2010 by sunshinegirl

February 2, 2010

I 100% agree with Dreamergirl here.

It is kind of funny that you keep saying that it was "presumptous" of her to ask to be just friends.

Lets face the facts here:

You found her physically attractive.

You devoloped a crush on her.

I am sure that it was VERY obvious to her.

You decided to ask her out so that you can pursue this further and eventually bang her (let's be honest here, this was your end goal).

She sensed your intentions correctly and decided to respond to what she sensed rather than your direct question. I really do not see a problem here. She didn't missread the situation in any way. Sure, you might not have attempted to bang her on date one - but this was the primary driving force in asking her out. If anything, the girl should be applauded for her honesty.

February 2, 2010

I 100% agree with Dreamergirl here.

It is kind of funny that you keep saying that it was "presumptous" of her to ask to be just friends.

Lets face the facts here:

You found her physically attractive.
You devoloped a crush on her.
I am sure that it was VERY obvious to her.
You decided to ask her out so that you can pursue this further and eventually bang her (let's be honest here, this was your end goal).

She sensed your intentions correctly and decided to respond to what she sensed rather than your direct question. I really do not see a problem here. She didn't missread the situation in any way. Sure, you might not have attempted to bang her on date one - but this was the primary driving force in asking her out. If anything, the girl should be applauded for her honesty.

Oh my goodness, you are very concise. Yes, I understand hat has been said and I do appreciate her honesty. Yes, like I said I am not lying to myself and I suppose the dreamer part of my was fantasizing, a little crush is just that. I am acutely aware of this and do my very best not too let it show outwards. People underestimate body language cue's and all that.

However, I am not hating on her or saying anything really except that it was kind of weird. Usually, I guess I have dealt with ladies that are less, lets say, direct with their responses.

I just chalked it up to her perhaps dealing with boys her age? Maybe? LoL. Whatever the reason, it's fine.

February 3, 2010

It is kind of funny that you keep saying that it was "presumptous" of her to ask to be just friends.

She didn't "ask" to just be friends. That rationalization is bordering on a lie on your part based on OP's plain description of what happened.

She "answered" his invitation to do something with a "just as friends, right?" condition, which as you and I and everyone on this forum, and everyone everywhere else in the world who has ever had a date knows means "I am not interested in you sexually, but would be willing to accept attention from you totally on my terms," and has nothing to do with whether she wants to "be his friend" or not.

When anyone invites anyone to do anything, with few exceptions, it's rude, immature and unnecessary to try to condition their invitation or to change it into something it's not.

Say "yes" or "no." Simple.

A "no" signals "no sex for you" politely. "Only as friends right?" does not.

February 4, 2010

There is nothing rude about setting boundaries. She works with the guy, so why shouldn't she let him know she has no interest in him sexually? It's better then let him think she's flirting with him. She's not playing or toying with him. She's being honest and upfront. Which is more then some people would do.

February 10, 2010

Your only hope of rescuing this situation was to immediately say no, not as friends, and that you were interested in her romantically/sexually. Since you backed down and lied by saying friends of course, you haven't got a hope in hell. You probably didn't have much hope anyway, but by pussying out, you just abandoned the last vestiges.

In future, don't lie to women and pretend you want to be their friend when in fact you want to have sex with them. Just be honest.

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