Lizzie60 Posted February 1, 2010 Posted February 1, 2010 First, let me say that I think this is an excellent and very thoughtful post. Now to some of the points you made: I believe it is rare for a life altering experience to be simply neutral as regards shame or pride. I chose to tell no one of this experience, partly because of having the experience before and gaging reactions and partly because I believe it would have prevented a full recovery of our marriage. Even here on LS I've seen (and experienced) rejection because I chose to attempt to work things out. Some people seem to think that they know best regardless of the situation. If you choose to do something other than what they either did or would choose in a like circumstance, they tend to ridicule you. The other thing that happens - no matter what choice you make - is you immediately become the subject of discussion - gossip. Since the situation you are in is a situation no one would ever choose, it is much easier to distance oneself from the possibility of it happening by blaming (or shaming) the victim of the problem - the BS. That doesn't always happen, but I've seen it happen enough to know that IRL I don't want that. IMO BS do experience shame, as well, not because of our WS's actions so much, but rather because we are caught unawares. We didn't see what was happening even though it was right beneath our noses. There is a degree of shame in being that unobservant about our own lives. Now, in regards to agency being at the root of the competition between OW and BW. Though I do agree with what you have stated regarding agency, IMO the "agency" explanation is not a complete explanation of the competition. IRL I have known 2 women (at least) who do select married men almost exclusively. Unlike you and Lizzie, they do not select these married men because they do not want commitment. They select married men and immediately begin attempting to terminate their existing marriage. One of those women will, if the marriage disintegrates, break up with the man and move on to another conquest. If it doesn't break up, after she has made sure the A is exposed, she will also move along. (She is a person I know well, and at some level we are friends, but this behavior has stopped me from considering her to be a good friend.) The other actually would like to be married herself, but she always chooses married men to "date". I personally know of 5 different men she's been with in the last 11 years. Each time she's been thrown under the bus, but each time she return to the fray. IMO, those women are in general competing with married women, with no agency involved. I remember a young woman like that.. from my small hometown... she was fairly good looking.. blond, chubby.. big boobs.. and she would get MMs only to ruin their lives.. what a bimbo she was... but then again.. the MM are just as stupid..
angie2443 Posted February 1, 2010 Posted February 1, 2010 . There is a book called The Gift of Fear which is based more on basic instincts, survival, and how to trust our gut to save our lives or save ourselves from being victimized in more violent ways but the premise is the same.. I remember that book. It is so important to trust your instincts, expecially when it comes to dangerous situations. Trusting my instincts kept me from dating a serial rapist when I was younger. I didn't know he did these things, I just felt oddly unconfortable around him, even though he was attractive and educated. It's funny how reading the little signals that people give can give you such insight into who they really are.
White Flower Posted February 1, 2010 Posted February 1, 2010 I remember that book. It is so important to trust your instincts, expecially when it comes to dangerous situations. Trusting my instincts kept me from dating a serial rapist when I was younger. I didn't know he did these things, I just felt oddly unconfortable around him, even though he was attractive and educated. It's funny how reading the little signals that people give can give you such insight into who they really are. It is important! And I'm so glad you escaped that fate! Likewise, if discovering your H is cheating is detrimental to your well-being it is so important to listen to those little signals that tell you something is wrong. I can't for the life of me figure out why MM's W ignored those signals for so long. Not seeing one affair in the beginning I might be able to understand because she may have been working, pregnant, busy, whatever, but for the life of the M? I could go on and on but I guess some people would rather bury their heads in the sand.
fooled once Posted February 2, 2010 Posted February 2, 2010 Another take on this issue: BWs often complain about what they perceive as "proud OWs" (or, as some prefer to term themselves, "unapologetic OWs". I suspect that, at the heart of this, lies agency. Being a BW is not something to be proud of. Yes, one can feel proud of the way one has handled the situation, but the situation itself is not one that engenders pride. (Nor, am I claiming, that it engenders shame, as some BSs seem to feel - and thus, want to hide their status from others IRL.) Rather like being raped or mugged, it's something that is done to one, rather than something one chooses oneself. A BS does not have agency in choosing that status. An OW, on the other hand, does. (I'm not referring here to those OWs who did not know the MM was M.) She is active, makes a choice to engage in the A, and has agency both in choosing to continue it and in choosing how to conduct it. But many OWs deny their agency, claiming to feel powerless, the recipient of the actions or otherwise of someone else (the MM) on whose choosing (M or OW) their status depends. Once DDay arrives, the BS has agency - the BS can choose how to respond to the discovery of the A. The OW has no agency IN THAT DYNAMIC, but still retains her own agency in her own A dynamic. The BW (post-DDay, ie, the BW who knows she is one) resents the OW for having (and having had, throughout) agency where she was herself denied that; the OW resents the BW having agency over the outcome of the discovery (ie, whether the M continues or breaks up). I think this issue around agency is at the root of the "competition" between OW and BW. Alert the media -- I agree with OW Just kidding -- but all kidding aside, this was a great post.
White Flower Posted February 2, 2010 Posted February 2, 2010 Alert the media -- I agree with OW Just kidding -- but all kidding aside, this was a great post. Oh my goodness we may have to call a truce!
Trialbyfire Posted February 2, 2010 Posted February 2, 2010 So, I was reading another thread and realized that I was interested enough in this topic to start a thread. In my opinion, women are a very competitive lot. I work almost totally with men, so possibly I see the competition between women in a little different light - but when I'm placed into a temporary location/position for a few weeks/months and interact mostly with women instead of men, it's always a huge adjustment as the competition can be most uncomfortable. Though I think the WS "put" the OW & BS into competition with each other in a specific relationship, basically I believe that many (most?) women are simply competitive - for many things but often for the attention of men. My husband and I have gone to parties and I'll watch (some) other women and how they approach my husband. They are definitely in "competition" with me for his attention. He hasn't done a blessed thing, other than be there. He says this never happens when I'm not around... (obviously I only have his word for this - as I'm not around to see it ). And I do believe that some women are into the competition of attracting married men, not necessarily because of the man, but rather because he is married. Some prefer MM because of not wanting commitment, true. But I believe there is often a competitive factor as well. JMO - comments?Men compete with men and women compete with women. That's pretty normal. What I can't fathom, is why anyone competes for a cheater.
infjgrl Posted February 2, 2010 Posted February 2, 2010 Well.. maybe she has a young stud.. who knows? that could be why he's so deprived.. but to be honest.. I very much doubt it.. because I know that women can be much more faithful than men.. and again .. to be honest.. I don't give a hoot if the Ws have young studs on the side.. good for them!!! With most.. we have joked around about that... they all come up with the same thing: Good for her.. or I don't give a damn.. i'm really not trying to be judgmental, but how can you guys (you and the MM) live with yourselves? just reading your comments makes my stomach turn.
BlueeyedJonesy Posted February 2, 2010 Posted February 2, 2010 What I can't fathom, is why anyone competes for a cheater. I don't get it either..... i'm really not trying to be judgmental, but how can you guys (you and the MM) live with yourselves? just reading your comments makes my stomach turn. Same here..everyone has different hobbies tho..
Lizzie60 Posted February 2, 2010 Posted February 2, 2010 Well.. if both W and OW (not my case though) compete for the same liar.. one is just as bad as the other ...
White Flower Posted February 2, 2010 Posted February 2, 2010 Well.. if both W and OW (not my case though) compete for the same liar.. one is just as bad as the other ... Or just as good as each other.
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