Toward a more meaningful understanding of Retroactive Jealousy

[mansquito]

I originally intended to post this to the latest RJ thread, but I think it's a common enough topic that it merits a more general discussion.

 

Posts by men about issues with retroactive jealousy, here and elsewhere, tend to prompt two general kinds of responses:

 

"She's a slut. You should dump her."

 

Or...

 

"How dare you have an issue with her past! Just get over it, or do her a favor and leave."

 

Neither of those types of responses are particularly helpful to the subset of people who are a) bothered by a partner's sexual past, b) introspective enough to do some soul-searching about it, and c) remain conflicted enough to solicit advice from random strangers on the Internet.

 

I've yet to read a single thread on the issue where the Jealous Partner (hereafter, the JP) didn't express deep, emotional affection for the relatively Promiscuous Partner (or PP). If the apparent fundamental incompatibility in sexual values is strong enough to overcome whatever affection exists, the JP likely settled on answer #1 on their own, and dumped the PP without bothering to start a thread about it.

 

Answer #2 is far too simplistic to provide any value to the JP who does value the emotional attachment to their PP. RJ is a set of emotional responses, not rational ones, and boiling the issue down to easy, rational answers (especially ones that imply that the JP is either a hypocrite or a prude) doesn't do much to address the underlying emotional conflict.

 

So before any JP can even hope to address the issue in a rational manner, they first have to figure out why the conflict exists in the first place. They then have to accept the emotions as their own, without attaching any more sense of value, shame, or judgement to them than they would assign to any other set of strong emotional reactions. RJ is an emotion just like any other emotion, and it's not right or wrong - it just is.

 

So why do JP's feel the way they do? After all, very few of them are virgins before the relationship with the PP, and many if not most of them seem to have had their fair share of casual sex and experimentation. They don't generally see themselves as the type to become a JP. It's not until they're in a truly intimate and committed relationship (ironically, one where the intimacy and trust is profound enough to allow the Big Reveal) that RJ sneaks up from behind them and hits them over the head. It doesn't make any rational sense.

 

I dunno. I'm about out of ideas at the moment. Anybody else have any thoughts?

[AAlike]

you're right, both answers 1 and 2 are useless and fail to understand the problem. but that makes sense, because ideally the problem is not a rational or logical one.

 

The only way to get over RJ is to simply let it heal over time. It's an emotional problem - therefore you need to get over it much like you get over an emotion like grief. By trying to "just get over it" you inhibit that process. you frustrate yourself - you obsess over "why do I care".

[Hop_prophet]

I have no clue either and I agree that most of the reponses are generic but you can argue that with any subject here. I tend to ruminate on things and its hard to just shut it off especially when I get all these vivid images popping up out of nowhere. My partner has been a bit too open with me and doesn't really filter much. I appreciated the honesty but I've told her I just don't want to hear about these things anymore.

 

I'm trying therapy now. Hopefully it will give me a new perspective on this. Just curious, but have you attempted this?

[AMAN]

Well, I was a virgin when I first got with my wife.

 

I love her with all my heart, but I cannot get over her past two relationships before she and I got together. I really can't stop thinking about it at least once a day. She knows how I feel and it breaks my heart that she feels bad her past because I do. I cannot forgive her for what she has done and I have been honest with her and told her so.

 

Don't get me wrong. She is my wife and we have a great relationship. I love her dearly and would willingly give my life for her in a second if need be, but about once a month i go through a period where I am tortured by mental images of her and her boyfriends together. I bounce between anger, sadness and malaise, then back to normal for another month.

 

See, I have to live with the fact that I will never have a virgin. I will never be as special as her first boyfriend. When we are together, I wonder about what she did with her boyfriends, where did they go, what did they do? There is a constant invisible standard that I feel I always have to meet or surpass. Did I know this before we were married? Of course I did, but she was just so special to me, I couldn't pass her up.

 

So there it is. I can leave someone that I love with all my heart, or I can stay and deal with this. I choose to stay.

 

On a personal note, I find individuals that respond to these questions with a simple "get over it", are among the most judgemental, pathetic dregs of society. A rape victim doesn't just "get over it", nor does a soldier who kills in war just "get over it". None of these feelings are the affected person's fault, but their feelings are valid and should be treated as such.

[Softsoul]

On a personal note, I find individuals that respond to these questions with a simple "get over it", are among the most judgemental, pathetic dregs of society. A rape victim doesn't just "get over it", nor does a soldier who kills in war just "get over it". None of these feelings are the affected person's fault, but their feelings are valid and should be treated as such.

I agree.

I have a problem with retroactive jealousy as well. I didn't use to be like that (I had one boyfriend before I met my fiance), but my fiance made some mistakes in the past that reminded me of his ex all the time.

 

I will never be as special as her first boyfriend.

I disagree. If I look at my relationships - I lost my virginity to the guy I was with previous to my fiance. That doesn't mean my fiance is not as special - actually, he's way more special than my ex. I never thought of marrying my ex, and I don't hold any fond memories of him.

And I'm sure in my heart that my fiance thinks that his wife-to-be is way more special than his ex, who hasn't been around for years.

 

So AMAN, I'm sure your wife thinks you're the most special man on earth - that's why she married you!

 

I think when suffering from retroactive jealousy, we have to try not to "blame" our significant others for their past. They can't do anything about it, and hostility doesn't help.

I think this is all like grieving in a way - with time, it gets better. At least for me it did, although I'm still waiting to fully let go.

[reservoirdog1]

The problem often seems to be that when the partner suffering from RJ brings up the issue of the other person's past relationships, they do it in a way that almost invariably makes the other person feel bad themselves, or feel the need to apologize or "explain themselves". Particularly if the RJ sufferer becomes sad or otherwise emotional about it -- how is the other partner supposed to feel? They've been put in a position where their SO is sad, and they want the sadness to go away and be replaced with positivity. And when one's partner is unhappy about things like that, in my experience it's VERY easy to take a misstep and say the wrong thing.

 

I went through this with an XGF, and it was one of the things that ultimately led me to end the relationship.

 

On a personal note, I find individuals that respond to these questions with a simple "get over it", are among the most judgemental, pathetic dregs of society. A rape victim doesn't just "get over it", nor does a soldier who kills in war just "get over it". None of these feelings are the affected person's fault, but their feelings are valid and should be treated as such.

 

The first sentence of this paragraph is, in and of itself, incredibly judgmental. There is no equivalency between a rape victim or a soldier who's killed others in war on the one hand, and a person unable to deal with their partner's sexual history before they even met them. You're comparing apples and oranges. The people in the first category have suffered horrible trauma which could not have been avoided in their particular circumstances. The RJ sufferer has a responsibility to (a) acknowledge the central fact that most people they become romantically involved with will have had prior sexual experiences, (b) seek out means of coping with their RJ issue so that it doesn't infect the relationship and damage/destroy what could have otherwise been a very positive union, and © where necessary to involve their new partner, deal with the issue in a manner that isn't accusatory or guilt-inducing.

 

If they don't or won't do (a), (b) or ©, then the relationship is more likely to be a miserable one, and ultimately end.

Edited February 3, 2010 by reservoirdog1

[AAlike]

The problem often seems to be that when the partner suffering from RJ brings up the issue of the other person's past relationships, they do it in a way that almost invariably makes the other person feel bad themselves, or feel the need to apologize or "explain themselves". Particularly if the RJ sufferer becomes sad or otherwise emotional about it -- how is the other partner supposed to feel? They've been put in a position where their SO is sad, and they want the sadness to go away and be replaced with positivity. And when one's partner is unhappy about things like that, in my experience it's VERY easy to take a misstep and say the wrong thing.

 

that is a very good point.

 

So often on here you see the jealous one, when recounting their story, saying something like "he/she regrets it, he/she knows it was a mistake, he/she was young and stupid, etc. etc."

 

Although on the surface that might seem like a good thing, as you have pointed out, oftentimes it is really the SO just attempting to say the right thing, and their "regret" is probably more having mentioned it to a point where it gets factored into the evaulation of a loving relationship than regretting the action itself. And their response is probably to avoid saying the "true" answer to the "why? why? why?" grilling that their receiving from the partner, when the true answer is probably no deeper than "because I felt like it."

 

plus, the apologies and explanations only further the notion that past sexual acts are something that need to be "explained" - which I also think hinders getting past this feeling.

[Trialbyfire]

I'm just floored that individuals with RJ, would engage in a relationship with someone who's past they have issues with. Why not just narrow your mate selection to someone who has similar core values, as you have?

[reservoirdog1]

I'm just floored that individuals with RJ, would engage in a relationship with someone who's past they have issues with. Why not just narrow your mate selection to someone who has similar core values, as you have?

EXACTLY. Very well said.

 

"Get over it" may be seen as shorthand for saying the following to a person who experiences RJ:

 

"It's not your new significant other's problem, it's your problem. Find some way to address it without burdening your new relationship with your issue. Perhaps that involves counselling. Your new SO has a past, just like you do, and they owe you neither an explanation nor an apology for it. Much as they may care about you, they have done nothing to warrant being subjected to your problem, and should not be expected to tolerate it. They are your romantic partner -- not your counsellor. If you can't or won't seek the guidance you need, outside the relationship, then the relationship probably won't survive."

[reservoirdog1]

that is a very good point.

 

So often on here you see the jealous one, when recounting their story, saying something like "he/she regrets it, he/she knows it was a mistake, he/she was young and stupid, etc. etc."

 

Although on the surface that might seem like a good thing, as you have pointed out, oftentimes it is really the SO just attempting to say the right thing, and their "regret" is probably more having mentioned it to a point where it gets factored into the evaulation of a loving relationship than regretting the action itself. And their response is probably to avoid saying the "true" answer to the "why? why? why?" grilling that their receiving from the partner, when the true answer is probably no deeper than "because I felt like it."

 

plus, the apologies and explanations only further the notion that past sexual acts are something that need to be "explained" - which I also think hinders getting past this feeling.

Also very well said.

 

In addition, from my own experience, the apologies, explanations, "it meant nothing"s, "I was younger then"s, etc. have one central objective: to bring the discussion to a close. Rehashing it does nothing to make the past that the new partner is jealous of "okay". Pretending the past events were absolutely meaningless just to make the RJ sufferer feel better does a disservice to the recipient of the jealousy, because the reality is that some of those events and actions actually DID have meaning for them, back then. Why should it be a requirement of a new relationship that all past experiences automatically be disavowed, cheapened, or minimized? They meant something then. They don't mean something now. People grow and change.

 

Hence, "get over it."

[Hop_prophet]

I'm just floored that individuals with RJ, would engage in a relationship with someone who's past they have issues with. Why not just narrow your mate selection to someone who has similar core values, as you have?

 

Well yes this makes perfect sense. If I were to enter into a new relationship then I would absolutely take this to heart. The problem is that I fell for someone who has a certain past without realizing the extent of my RJ. At the time I thought it would not bother me. When more unfiltered details spilled out later then I realized I had a problem. I want to figure out a way to prevent this from spoiling an otherwise great relationship.

 

BTW there is also the issue that many people lie or refuse to divulge details of their past so that makes it extremely difficult to eliminate certain people.

[AAlike]

I'm just floored that individuals with RJ, would engage in a relationship with someone who's past they have issues with. Why not just narrow your mate selection to someone who has similar core values, as you have?

 

you consistently say this - but it's not "core values" that are at play usually with RJ (although they may be in the case of the virgin earlier in the thread). as the OP pointed out, however, oftentimes the jealous person has a more involved sexual past than those that they are jealous over. There have even been instances where people FULLY KNEW about their partner's past when they started dating them, and then had RJ issues several months into the relationship.

 

if it was as simple as "I would never date someone that has done X or been with Y number of partners" then you are right, this wouldn't happen. but I don't think that RJ is a pass/fail sort of thing. I think that, more often than not, RJ is an emotional response that happens when you really fall in love and an idealistic "perfect" vision of your SO takes shape.

[Trialbyfire]

Well yes this makes perfect sense. If I were to enter into a new relationship then I would absolutely take this to heart. The problem is that I fell for someone who has a certain past without realizing the extent of my RJ. At the time I thought it would not bother me. When more unfiltered details spilled out later then I realized I had a problem. I want to figure out a way to prevent this from spoiling an otherwise great relationship.

 

BTW there is also the issue that many people lie or refuse to divulge details of their past so that makes it extremely difficult to eliminate certain people.

Everyone has the ultimate control to walk away from relationships. If you choose not to press the issue for past transparency, when entering into a relationship with someone, that's your choice AND responsibility. Or if someone has lied, was this not an issue of people picker problem? And yes, I truly believe this and have lived this.

 

One of my mate selection criterias, is that they view sex in a similar fashion, believing it to be the natural progression for individuals who are in love, rather than a sport or itch to scratch.

 

My ex-H cheated on me in marriage. In essence he lied about his beliefs and past to me. But...ultimately...I allowed myself to fall in love with him and accepted his proposal, which was my people picker problem, since I ignored his red flags premarriage. After D-day, I exercised my ultimate control on the relationship by demanding a divorce, which he didn't want but was forced to give, which I won't get into.

 

you consistently say this - but it's not "core values" that are at play usually with RJ (although they may be in the case of the virgin earlier in the thread). as the OP pointed out, however, oftentimes the jealous person has a more involved sexual past than those that they are jealous over. There have even been instances where people FULLY KNEW about their partner's past when they started dating them, and then had RJ issues several months into the relationship.

 

if it was as simple as "I would never date someone that has done X or been with Y number of partners" then you are right, this wouldn't happen. but I don't think that RJ is a pass/fail sort of thing. I think that, more often than not, RJ is an emotional response that happens when you really fall in love and an idealistic "perfect" vision of your SO takes shape.

Regardless, why get involved with someone who doesn't meet whatever preferences you want or need? It's like saying that people should mercy date, since they should be open-minded about giving everyone a chance. Not going to happen, since it's a waste of everyone's time and effort.

[AAlike]

 

Regardless, why get involved with someone who doesn't meet whatever preferences you want or need? It's like saying that people should mercy date, since they should be open-minded about giving everyone a chance. Not going to happen, since it's a waste of everyone's time and effort.

 

I suppose you have the option to walk away during these symptoms, sure. but it doesn't affect your evaluation of the person as a whole. I don't know that I'm going to be able to explain it to you - you do a fantastic job of boiling down issues that people on here tend to overcomplicate into black-and-white simplicity...but with all due respect I think that you're missing the boat on this one, which is understandable since you have never experienced it. it's actually very difficult to comprehend from an outsider's perspective because it is, in essence, completely absurd and in fact, counterlogical.

[meerkat stew]

So why do JP's feel the way they do? After all, very few of them are virgins before the relationship with the PP, and many if not most of them seem to have had their fair share of casual sex and experimentation.

 

IMO, it's a lizard brain response that some don't successfully overcome with their big mammal brains, and perfectly reasonable from a raw biological perspective. On a primeval level, the JP needs as much assurance as possible that the PP will not either a) allow fertilization from other males, or b) will not run off to other females once fertilization takes place. In lizard brain logic, more partners = more chance of the a or b results that are bad for gene perpetuation.

 

Usually, our mammal cerebral cortexes kick in and say, "wait a minute, I have enough experience with PP to discount primal logic. They are a proven quantity, have expressed loyalty, etc." In other words, the JP has -thought- about it and discounted their lizard inclinations as primitive and not applicable to modern life.

 

As far as -why- the lizard brain is not overruled in certain people with respect to this issue, can't answer that definitively. After a certain amount of having the "veil lifted" about the true nature of sex relations and people's sexual behavior, after a certain amount of experience, the lizard brain seems to have less sway. People seem to become innoculated to primal knee-jerk responses the more experience they have.

 

A shortened version may be that the first time you are stung by a bee, it is a traumatic event way out of proportion to the pain. Once you have been stung enough and have enough experience with the pain, your big brain finally kicks in and you stop having fight or flight response when bee is buzzing around you. It seems that JP, based on ones I've known and read about here and elsewhere, don't have enough experience for their big brains to successfully launch them past the primitive JP response.

 

Now there are some people who have a bee phobia, and in those the big brain never wins, no matter how much experience is gained, maybe JPs have a phobia.

[AMAN]

I'm just floored that individuals with RJ, would engage in a relationship with someone who's past they have issues with. Why not just narrow your mate selection to someone who has similar core values, as you have?

 

 

If you're so floored with others RJ issues, why dont you narrow your threade viewing selection to threads that don't involve RJ? Especially when you have nothing useful to provide to the discussion.

[AMAN]

 

 

The first sentence of this paragraph is, in and of itself, incredibly judgmental. There is no equivalency between a rape victim or a soldier who's killed others in war on the one hand, and a person unable to deal with their partner's sexual history before they even met them. You're comparing apples and oranges. The people in the first category have suffered horrible trauma which could not have been avoided in their particular circumstances. The RJ sufferer has a responsibility to (a) acknowledge the central fact that most people they become romantically involved with will have had prior sexual experiences, (b) seek out means of coping with their RJ issue so that it doesn't infect the relationship and damage/destroy what could have otherwise been a very positive union, and © where necessary to involve their new partner, deal with the issue in a manner that isn't accusatory or guilt-inducing.

 

If they don't or won't do (a), (b) or ©, then the relationship is more likely to be a miserable one, and ultimately end.

 

While I freely admit that my feelings of victimization are nowhere near those of a rape victim or a soldier who unwillingly killed in war, i'm sure an individual as intelligent as yourself understands that I was using those extreme examples to show how my own feelings are ne less valid than theirs and that adivice such as "get over it" would do me no more good than it would to them.

 

Perhaps I overestimated...

 

I accept the fact that my wife engaged in pre-marital sex before we were married (she knew me, but we weren't together at the time).

 

I cope with my own issues without destroying my marriage by keeping it locked inside of me.

 

I have not attempted to induce guilt on my wife, I cannot control how she feels when i honestly discuss my feelings. When she felt guilty, i decided to keep it inside to spare her.

 

I still have questions, such as:

 

1. Why was I not worth waiting for?

2. Did she think I wouldn't mind that she gave it away to someone other than me?

3. What is special about my relationship that she didn't have with boyfriend #1 or #2? (Aside from a cerificate issued by the province that states I am married for tax purposes)

4. Why do you think that I am a bad person for feeling this way when I saved myself for my wife and got nothing in return from her?

 

Now, you can argue that she didn't have the same values as me, she didn't believe that we would end up together, that I knew about her previous relationships in advance and still married her, etc.

 

Well, she does have similar values as me, we are both athiests, outcasts from our respective churches. I didn't believe I would end up with her. She chose to engage in premaritial sex, and I did not. I married her because i love her, in spite of what she did. She knew my feelings and chose to marry me as well.

 

Now, you think I am judgemental? Too bad. Get over it. Any poster on this site has a responsibility to (a) acknowledge that most people her have feelings that are not always fair or logical or in keeping with what you think is appropriate in a relationship, (b) seek out a means of coping with posts when they feel the content may not be in agreement with their own personal opinions or beliefs so that it doesn't infect and destory what could have been a very positive thread that would help a person, and © deal with the issue in a manner that isn't accusitory, guilt inducing, or manages to pisss the affected person off, considering that they have heard many a spiel like yours and didn't find it to be benificial before.

 

Doesn't sound like you were so helpful, does it?

[meerkat stew]

Doesn't sound like you were so helpful, does it?

 

Hell, and I thought -I- was an abrasive poster. Sounds like your problem isn't RJ but a humongous chip on your shoulder.

[Shevy]

While I freely admit that my feelings of victimization are nowhere near those of a rape victim or a soldier who unwillingly killed in war, i'm sure an individual as intelligent as yourself understands that I was using those extreme examples to show how my own feelings are ne less valid than theirs and that adivice such as "get over it" would do me no more good than it would to them.

 

Perhaps I overestimated...

 

I accept the fact that my wife engaged in pre-marital sex before we were married (she knew me, but we weren't together at the time).

 

I cope with my own issues without destroying my marriage by keeping it locked inside of me.

 

I have not attempted to induce guilt on my wife, I cannot control how she feels when i honestly discuss my feelings. When she felt guilty, i decided to keep it inside to spare her.

 

I still have questions, such as:

 

1. Why was I not worth waiting for?

2. Did she think I wouldn't mind that she gave it away to someone other than me?

3. What is special about my relationship that she didn't have with boyfriend #1 or #2? (Aside from a cerificate issued by the province that states I am married for tax purposes)

4. Why do you think that I am a bad person for feeling this way when I saved myself for my wife and got nothing in return from her?

 

Now, you can argue that she didn't have the same values as me, she didn't believe that we would end up together, that I knew about her previous relationships in advance and still married her, etc.

 

Well, she does have similar values as me, we are both athiests, outcasts from our respective churches. I didn't believe I would end up with her. She chose to engage in premaritial sex, and I did not. I married her because i love her, in spite of what she did. She knew my feelings and chose to marry me as well.

 

Now, you think I am judgemental? Too bad. Get over it. Any poster on this site has a responsibility to (a) acknowledge that most people her have feelings that are not always fair or logical or in keeping with what you think is appropriate in a relationship, (b) seek out a means of coping with posts when they feel the content may not be in agreement with their own personal opinions or beliefs so that it doesn't infect and destory what could have been a very positive thread that would help a person, and © deal with the issue in a manner that isn't accusitory, guilt inducing, or manages to pisss the affected person off, considering that they have heard many a spiel like yours and didn't find it to be benificial before.

 

Doesn't sound like you were so helpful, does it?

 

Your wife didn't "wait" for you because you are not the centre of the universe. It is not fair or reasonable to sanctimoniously condemn somebody for having a past. Everyone is entitled to a past. You are her present, you are her future. She has committed herself to you and her exes are exes for a reason.

 

Without any prior knowledge of her relational history, as an observer, it is clear that what seperates her relationship with you from her ex-boyfriends is that she married you!

 

You aren't a bad person for experiencing jealousy but as your wife does not possess psychic abilities and presumably could never have preemptively known that you and her would end up together, it is irrational to condemn her for not "saving" herself for you. Accept the things you cannot change, and enjoy spending the rest of your life with someone who loves you enough to wed you. You cannot alter the past but your attitude towards your wife's history is within your realm of control...

[AAlike]

While I freely admit that my feelings of victimization are nowhere near those of a rape victim or a soldier who unwillingly killed in war, i'm sure an individual as intelligent as yourself understands that I was using those extreme examples to show how my own feelings are ne less valid than theirs and that adivice such as "get over it" would do me no more good than it would to them.

 

Perhaps I overestimated...

 

Look, I get what you are saying - people that have never experienced RJ do not understand it's seriousness (and understandably so, to the outsider it looks absurd - much like OCD or something like that) - the analogy that you used wasn't great but I get it. I don't think res. dog was trying to bash you though, I think that his post was actually very insightful.

 

Now, on to your situation.

 

I accept the fact that my wife engaged in pre-marital sex before we were married (she knew me, but we weren't together at the time)

 

You most certainly do NOT accept that fact. You are aware of it - but lack of acceptance is actually the fundamental property behind RJ.

 

RJ, from what I have heard and what I experienced myself, involves a subconscious separation of the SO into two people - the perfect person that you love vs. "the girl that did those things". That separation is fueled by a lack of acceptance.

 

I cope with my own issues without destroying my marriage by keeping it locked inside of me.

 

Keeping it bottled up is not coping, my friend.

 

 

I still have questions, such as:

 

1. Why was I not worth waiting for?

2. Did she think I wouldn't mind that she gave it away to someone other than me?

4. Why do you think that I am a bad person for feeling this way when I saved myself for my wife and got nothing in return from her?

 

 

Well - you have to understand that this commodification of virginity, the notion that a girl is "giving" something away, is possessive, archaic, and honestly fairly rare nowadays. If you ascribe to this notion, then TrialbyFire is absolutely right, this should be as simple as "I need a virgin", period, end of story, end of relationship.

 

However, if you are unsure about it, as I'm guessing you are, then you have to realize that your wife cannot help you and talking with her and asking her these illogical, loaded questions will only impede your getting past this. You, internally, have to dispel this notion. If you do so, your wife's past will become exactly that, the past, and will start to seem less and less important. But YOU have to do this. If you can't, then your relationship will never work.

 

3. What is special about my relationship that she didn't have with boyfriend #1 or #2? (Aside from a cerificate issued by the province that states I am married for tax purposes)

 

This question is a little more sensible, and a more common feeling in relationships. And again, this question will answer itself when you begin to accept your wife as a whole, past and all, and really grow to love her unconditionally. you'll realize that your relationship is definted by a lot more than sex.

 

Now, you can argue that she didn't have the same values as me, she didn't believe that we would end up together, that I knew about her previous relationships in advance and still married her, etc.

 

you knew in advance? wow.

 

Well, she does have similar values as me, we are both athiests, outcasts from our respective churches. I didn't believe I would end up with her. She chose to engage in premaritial sex, and I did not. I married her because i love her, in spite of what she did. She knew my feelings and chose to marry me as well.

 

hmmm - I'm thinking that perhaps the type of church that would "cast you out" is probably partly responsible for messing with your head.

 

Now, you think I am judgemental? Too bad. Get over it. Any poster on this site has a responsibility to (a) acknowledge that most people her have feelings that are not always fair or logical or in keeping with what you think is appropriate in a relationship, (b) seek out a means of coping with posts when they feel the content may not be in agreement with their own personal opinions or beliefs so that it doesn't infect and destory what could have been a very positive thread that would help a person, and © deal with the issue in a manner that isn't accusitory, guilt inducing, or manages to pisss the affected person off, considering that they have heard many a spiel like yours and didn't find it to be benificial before.

 

 

It almost seems like you want justification for your RJ feelings. While people like myself that have felt these issues can empathize and offer advice, no one is going to say that your behavior is perfectly acceptable - because it's NOT.