First Heartbreak Scars Men for Life?

[Thebob]

Girls just drive me crazy, after my ex, and this recent girl I was after, I've noticed that most girls don't know what they want and there brains change every other day. They like you, they ignore you, they want you cause your a good guy, they think your a creeper. This is no even ground, and that is why you have to treat them like **** in order for them to respect you.

 

Thebob

[JohnP82]

It definitely changed me. The way I approach and view love will likely never be the same. I still believe in the love, but I now have a more realistic view about it.

[Peter Attis]

It's funny, I was watching Intervention on A&E and they had a guy on who was in a singing group with another guy and a girl. He was dating the girl, but while they were on tour, she dumped him for the other guy, then they got married and had kids. And that CRUSHED him. He became an alcoholic, made it blatantly clear he didn't really love his new girlfriend because he wasn't over the last girl, and was just a mess.

 

I can only hope I never have to experience something like that.

[Outcast]

So ladies can you explain how a man can open himself up and let a woman in while still remaining attractive to her? How can a man let his guard down without a woman falling out of love? I would love to open up to my wife and not keep this wall up all the time but that seems to the moment when women lose desire for a man.

 

Oh, Woggle. Still harbouring your misconceptions about 'women'. What you are talking about is emotional intimacy. It is the glue that bonds truly great relationships. Without it, you're two strangers going through the motions. It's an empty little life you've got yourself there.

 

This is exactly the problem with so many men. One hurt and, rather than using logic, they fall into knee-jerk reactions for the rest of their lives. They think women are illogical, but I've run into very few women who tar all men with the same brush based on the behaviour of one or even a few men in their lives.

 

Logic tells you that every person is different and reacts differently; therefore that one person of one type (female, male, oriental, anglican, blue-eyed, whatever type you like) does not represent the actions of all of that type. In fact, even a large group of people of one type do not represent all of that type. Therefore, that one or even a few men jerk you around doesn't mean that there is no man on the planet who won't.

 

However, an awful lot of men are incapable of acting based on that logic. One bad relationship, and they, like you, distrust all women thence onwards.

 

So, ladies, look out for men who issue statements like those below; they are sure signs that a man is guilty of extrapolating the behaviour of all women from the behaviour of a few; i.e. that he's incapable of recognizing or understanding each individual woman for what she is and has you grouped in that odious category of 'woman'; the group of people for whom he has contempt, dislike, and distrust. Witness:

 

What you call "scarring" we just call wising up to women's true colors.

 

Men are only willing to "work on" a relationship once.

 

Agreed. To put it blunty (and I realize kind of a bad way...), it's that magic moment when men realize what women seemed to think about men all along...

 

...women are expendable...

 

the above are the signs of chronically embittered men. You'll never win the heart of one of these because they've locked their hearts away forever. Sadly, there's an awful lot of them. Too bad there's not a saliva test for bitterness - stick a test strip on the tongue - if it comes back black, run like hell In the absence of same, ladies, try to glean from how he talks about his former relationships whether he's shut himself off permanently. If he has, you might as well give up and move on and try to find someone who hasn't.

[phineas]

I started dating my 28yr old manager when I was 20.

It lasted over a yr & then she decided she was no longer attracted to me & hooked up with another co-worker (early 20's) at a party we were at.

 

Even though I knew we had no future, I was crushed.

It took me well over a yr to recover from that.

 

But, it did make me stronger.

My wife's affair hit me harder than anything, but my path to recovery has been faster.

[sumdude]

paddington, I'm going to have to disagree. From years of reading thread after thread, it's more a non-gender related issue. There appear to be two types of people who have difficulty recovering from break up, years afterwards:

1. Low self-esteem individuals who internalize the break up and self-flagellate their self-esteem to even lower depths.
   
2. Individuals with massive egos who can't believe their exes would leave them.
   

 

I think there can be more to it.

 

3. Hopeless romantics who were in too deep.

4. Consider the nature of the breakup. If you realize you've been lied to for years it can mess with your head a while. It can take a long time to process and reset your reality. To trust anyone again.

 

Thing is #1 can lead to #'s 3 & 4 happening. lol

 

Sheesh I might resemble all of these remarks to some extent. It's been three years since my ex wife suddenly walked out on me, I'm getting there and feeling like I might be ready for something real. There will be many more jumps and hoops this time.

[sumdude]

Agreed. To put it blunty (and I realize kind of a bad way...), it's that magic moment when men realize what women seemed to think about men all along...

 

...women are expendable...

 

 

Ehh romantically perhaps. But as far as our species is concerned? A few men can repopulate a town but you need a lot of women to do it. Lucky guys...

[threebyfate]

I think there can be more to it.

 

3. Hopeless romantics who were in too deep.

4. Consider the nature of the breakup. If you realize you've been lied to for years it can mess with your head a while. It can take a long time to process and reset your reality. To trust anyone again.

 

Thing is #1 can lead to #'s 3 & 4 happening. lol

 

Sheesh I might resemble all of these remarks to some extent. It's been three years since my ex wife suddenly walked out on me, I'm getting there and feeling like I might be ready for something real. There will be many more jumps and hoops this time.

sumdude, there is a similarity to our respective marriages, in that both our exes cheated on us. How each of us processed the cheating, was different.

 

IMO, if someone overtly or covertly attempts to devalue you, you throw up stiff middle fingers on both hands, to the individual alone, and do whatever you have to do, to take back what they attempted to take from you. In a scenario of infidelity, eff the high road.

[sumdude]

sumdude, there is a similarity to our respective marriages, in that both our exes cheated on us. How each of us processed the cheating, was different.

 

IMO, if someone overtly or covertly attempts to devalue you, you throw up stiff middle fingers on both hands, to the individual alone, and do whatever you have to do, to take back what they attempted to take from you. In a scenario of infidelity, eff the high road.

 

Agreed, there was an extra component that my ex was a compulsive liar and was either bipolar as well as Histrionic personality (not quite the narcissist but similar in some ways) Also had a couple other big bombs in life as well. Had a couple little R's, things will work out eventually.

 

But back to the OT. Men are often less likely to commit and take a lot longer to commit but once they do it's often a 'damn the torpedoes full steam ahead' moment. So when we do hit a mine we're just not ready for it.

 

Possibly one reason we processed it differently is because I'm a man and you're woman.

Edited January 26, 2010 by sumdude

[paddington bear]

so from what I'm reading here, the answer is mostly yes - but also, that maybe it's a good thing, the scales fall from your eyes kind of thing, you will no longer be deluded about the nature of love or women, but that's good, not bad?

 

Being emotional was mentioned, in terms of it being a turn off for women. I think there seems to be confusion over what being emotional is. Crazy, wild swinging emotional displays are getting mixed up with simply being emotionally available which is letting someone into your heart. I think it's bound up with trust in a way. Trust that the women you are with will love you just as you are - yes you might and probably will get hurt at some point in the future, but as my therapist said 'all relationships end in hurt' which, on reflection is not the positive thinking pep talk I'd expect from a therapist, she's probably right though.

 

Another question, if you go on protecting your hearts, even when married like Woggle, what does it feel like, good or bad? Good in that you feel you have more in control than when you fell so head over heels that first time in your life? Or do you feel there's something missing?

 

I'm guessing that while some people think they are protecting themselves from hurt, that actually this process still ends in the same heartbreak, whether you like it or not. I say this because I fell for a guy and really tried to protect myself from getting hurt, but ultimately I got just as hurt as if I hadn't protected myself. So, I'm not sure this method works..

[sumdude]

Trust that the women you are with will love you just as you are - yes you might and probably will get hurt at some point in the future, but as my therapist said 'all relationships end in hurt' which, on reflection is not the positive thinking pep talk I'd expect from a therapist, she's probably right though.

 

In a way they all do. One way or another you or your love will leave eventually, either by choice or chance.

[meerkat stew]

However, an awful lot of men are incapable of acting based on that logic. One bad relationship, and they, like you, distrust all women thence onwards.

 

And what makes you think the posters' you criticize experiences are singular? based on "one bad relationship." None of them said that. Just a launching point assumption for your preachy, condescending post right?

 

The "truth" about women, that runs counter to the way many men are, or rather were raised in days past, is that women are no better nor worse than men in terms of their motives and propensity for good and bad behavior, and that because of this, special treatment accorded women based merely on gender is misplaced. This is a call to equality, a good thing. Of course, claiming that women and men are equal in our good and bad motivations and behavior has been twisted by bizarro logic to equate to misogyny today, quite a political trick that

 

The next truth is that our feminized culture has created an environment that thoroughly devalues men and masculine issues politically and socially in favor of a "cult of the child." This devaluing is done in plain view by political interests intent on creating a victim mentality in women and polarizing gender relations by villifying men as "the violent enemy."

 

Men are/were raised in the United States to find a lady, court her, make a family, and prosper. Current political mores, though, dictate that men and men's interests are completely irrelevant and devalued when compared to interests of women and "their" (note no longer "our" children) in society.

 

So whereas it's more comfortable to couch a thread like this in terms of some "first heartbreak that scars men for life," the truth is that men obtain their attitudes about the state of the opposite sex and gender realities today from much hard social experience leading to the realization that, as Adam Smith said in The Money Game, "The world is not the way they tell you it is." This realization is exacerbated by a sociopolitical climate hostile to men. Ironically, when we wake up and smell the coffee, we also end up viewing gender relations more clearly and as a result become more attractive to women and better partners all around. You wanted a paradigm shift, you are getting it, one shoe has fallen, and the other is on the way.

 

Many are waking up every day. The backlash to quasi socialist feminized political culture is forming among men and women of reason, and it will be interesting to watch the dismantling of same over the next two decades. And I include the right and republican party equally with the left in the problem, so not playing party favorites here.

Edited January 26, 2010 by meerkat stew

[ella23]

In a way they all do. One way or another you or your love will leave eventually, either by choice or chance.

Unless you marry (and don't divorce).

[threebyfate]

Unless you marry (and don't divorce).

Death can be construed as chance. Everyone dies.

[ella23]

Death can be construed as chance. Everyone dies.

Um, yes of course. lol

[espec10001]

I haven't been on a date in 4 years. Not one. I would like to believe that my heart has not turned to stone since my last relationship, but the truth is I'm starting to see women as a grand illusion, a feminine entity that is meant for viewing and admiring FROM A DISTANCE, but don't touch one and don't get near one. Like a wonderful work of art, you look but you don't touch.

 

I just feel like falling in love is being duped. And that's why women desire men who don't fall for it so easily, they're smart.

[paddington bear]

And what makes you think the posters' you criticize experiences are singular? based on "one bad relationship." None of them said that. Just a launching point assumption for your preachy, condescending post right?

 

The "truth" about women, that runs counter to the way many men are, or rather were raised in days past, is that women are no better nor worse than men in terms of their motives and propensity for good and bad behavior, and that because of this, special treatment accorded women based merely on gender is misplaced. This is a call to equality, a good thing. Of course, claiming that women and men are equal in our good and bad motivations and behavior has been twisted by bizarro logic to equate to misogyny today, quite a political trick that

 

The next truth is that our feminized culture has created an environment that thoroughly devalues men and masculine issues politically and socially in favor of a "cult of the child." This devaluing is done in plain view by political interests intent on creating a victim mentality in women and polarizing gender relations by villifying men as "the violent enemy."

 

Men are/were raised in the United States to find a lady, court her, make a family, and prosper. Current political mores, though, dictate that men and men's interests are completely irrelevant and devalued when compared to interests of women and "their" (note no longer "our" children) in society.

 

So whereas it's more comfortable to couch a thread like this in terms of some "first heartbreak that scars men for life," the truth is that men obtain their attitudes about the state of the opposite sex and gender realities today from much hard social experience leading to the realization that, as Adam Smith said in The Money Game, "The world is not the way they tell you it is." This realization is exacerbated by a sociopolitical climate hostile to men. Ironically, when we wake up and smell the coffee, we also end up viewing gender relations more clearly and as a result become more attractive to women and better partners all around. You wanted a paradigm shift, you are getting it, one shoe has fallen, and the other is on the way.

 

Many are waking up every day. The backlash to quasi socialist feminized political culture is forming among men and women of reason, and it will be interesting to watch the dismantling of same over the next two decades. And I include the right and republican party equally with the left in the problem, so not playing party favorites here.

 

I don't think I was hiding some anti-men attitude behind my original post - at least that wasn't the intention: 'oh aren't all women fantastic the way we move on, and men don't'. That wasn't the point. Just that I've noticed over a period of time among contemporaries, but also among young male relatives the differences in their attitudes towards relationships after that first heartbreak.

 

"women are no better nor worse than men in terms of their motives and propensity for good and bad behavior" I agree with this, but I'm unsure as to whether men's reaction to that first heartbreak is directly related to social conditioning (I mean we all suffer from misguided beliefs or truths about what life is and will be).

 

I was talking more about the paradox of how men present themselves, act, feel compelled to act by society or other men or by women, or how they are hormonally wired to behave, or brought up - but depsite how men are presented and present themselves that the reality is that perhaps they are actually more vulnerable emotionally when it comes to love than women are let to believe.

 

I don't know if it's possible, but if more women were careful to not assume that men's hearts were somehow less breakable, that they can cope ok emotionally, then maybe it would be for the good of not only men, but womankind - perhaps there wouldn't be armies of men out there 'scarred for life' (for want of a better term), and that there would be less subsequent girlfriends having to deal with the fallout from that initial heartbreak and less men trying to protect themselves from the prospect of heartbreak and thus fostering healthier, happier relationships.

[Mr White]

so from what I'm reading here, the answer is mostly yes - but also, that maybe it's a good thing, the scales fall from your eyes kind of thing, you will no longer be deluded about the nature of love or women, but that's good, not bad?

 

Being emotional was mentioned, in terms of it being a turn off for women. I think there seems to be confusion over what being emotional is. Crazy, wild swinging emotional displays are getting mixed up with simply being emotionally available which is letting someone into your heart. I think it's bound up with trust in a way. Trust that the women you are with will love you just as you are - yes you might and probably will get hurt at some point in the future, but as my therapist said 'all relationships end in hurt' which, on reflection is not the positive thinking pep talk I'd expect from a therapist, she's probably right though.

 

Another question, if you go on protecting your hearts, even when married like Woggle, what does it feel like, good or bad? Good in that you feel you have more in control than when you fell so head over heels that first time in your life? Or do you feel there's something missing?

 

I'm guessing that while some people think they are protecting themselves from hurt, that actually this process still ends in the same heartbreak, whether you like it or not. I say this because I fell for a guy and really tried to protect myself from getting hurt, but ultimately I got just as hurt as if I hadn't protected myself. So, I'm not sure this method works..

 

 

Well, yes, it's a good thing. And I don't think it is appropriately named "self-protection". It's "I can take it or leave it" which is a much healthier attitude.

Moreover, once you realize that something is overrated, then how can something be missing from your life?

 

"Love is the illusion that one woman is different from all the rest" :lmao:. I don't remember who said this, but I totally agree. Moreover, I think it is almost psychotic to put in so much into one person as the stereotypical concept of romantic love implies.

 

The majority of breakups/divorces are initiated by women, and the majority of the breakups/divorces initiated by women are for completely frivolous reasons, so if anything, I think men should be encouraged to develop the "take it or leave it" attitude towards women, rather than be shamed for this, which is clearly the intention of the OP.

[threebyfate]

Hmmm...you've got to be kidding about paddington wanting to shame men. If anything, she's very sympathetic towards men.

[Mr White]

Hmmm...you've got to be kidding about paddington wanting to shame men. If anything, she's very sympathetic towards men.

 

I meant, the Outcast person....

[sally4sara]

I did remember thinking men get more damaged by a heartbreak than women several times in my life. I don't think it is because the love more or more deeply though. I think it has something to do with the entitlement to their choices we lend our boy children over girl children. We are always hovering over little girls "are you SURE honey?", second guessing them, so when things don't go their way - they are able to consider they chose poorly or wrong from the start.

Boys - we hang back more and let them "make up his own mind". When things don't go their way, it HAS to be some transgression against them and their will instead of a poor choice in a partner. We put on them the competition aspect more so it is taken as a win/loss situation. They feel defeat where a girl would be more likely to resign to "Oh that sucked, I'll try again with someone else".

 

Young men get their hearts broken too. Older men have just experienced it more and are more jaded. Instead of learning to choose slower or wiser, they just comfort themselves with the idea that it is the female gender rather than their judgment. This happens because we also raise boys with more focus on the competition of GETTING a girl instead of getting the RIGHT girl. We definitely put more emphasis on girls choosing quality over quantity. Boys get the emphasis on quantity over quality and the belief that if their will is strong, they can make a go with whomever they choose.

[meerkat stew]

I don't think I was hiding some anti-men attitude behind my original post - at least that wasn't the intention:

 

I didn't claim that you were, and my post was mainly directed at outcast.

 

It is misguided, though to assume a "first heartbreak" scars men in some kind of bubble. We are all shaped by experience over time. The guy who has a first heartbreak, then has three other girls after him isn't generally going to be scarred in any measurable way.

 

Despite what lots of social scientists want us to believe, it is abnormal to be scarred by a single traumatic event unless the event is truly horrific and reality altering. Normal people are emotionally flexible and bounce back from mild social trauma. Those who don't were prone to emotional and personality problems anyway, and the scars for those types can come from everyday events.

 

For example, my first GF in HS asked me point blank why I didn't drive a BMW or a Mercedes like many of our prep school friends, and insinuated that was a requirement for dating her. Was I scarred? No, just annoyed and humiliated. It took MANY subsequent experiences of mine and my friends with women who were materialistic for me to conclude that women are much more materialistic generally than men.

 

When I go out with a woman met on the net who shows up driving a Mercedes convertible and sporting a $500 blond mane of hair, I make certain assumptions about her, fair or not. I am usually dead on accurate. This comes about not because of some scar I got from my first GF at 16, but because of a truly massive amount of subsequent experience that accretes over time.

 

So whereas your thread is certainly not a "man-hating" thread, IMO the singular traumatic scarring experience is not as applicable to men and how we learn as many seem to think. People learn over time by amassing experience, and emotional scarring is not as prevalent as pop psychology and self-help books would lead us to believe.

[carhill]

And it's reminded me of my theory, that despite evidence to the contrary, that guys I think are actually more emotional and full-on than women when they fall in love. They are willing to commit and do all those things that many of us women want them to do, but...only when the guys are much younger and have not yet had their hearts broken.

 

Well, having had it done twice, once in my youth and once as an older man, both times by emotionally unavailable women, I'm probably an outlier to the theorem. Went on my first 'date' last Saturday and enjoyed it (the dynamic) just fine. No prejudices, rather more clearly defined boundaries. Even caught a tiny glimpse of 'what if', telling me that part is still healthy under the right circumstances and with a compatible partner. One aspect of that compatibility will be experiencing a woman who can reflect upon her past relationships in a positive light and introspective tone, since that was notably missing within the heartbreaks I experienced. Lesson learned.

[paddington bear]

@ Sally4sara, that's a good point: We definitely put more emphasis on girls choosing quality over quantity. Boys get the emphasis on quantity over quality and the belief that if their will is strong, they can make a go with whomever they choose.- do you reckon both mothers and fathers are guilty of this. IME yes, from the offset men and women are shaped by both their parents to slot into their roles within relationships to the opposite sex.

 

Meerkat, but maybe that first heartbreak is a 'single traumatic event (that is) truly horrific and reality altering. I'm not talking about early girlfriends who behave shoddily and who you liked a lot, but that first girl that tore your heart out.

 

Agreed that we learn through experiences gathered over time. But I suppose I would draw a distinction between learning to recognise those red flags over time and perhaps 'learning' that the process of falling in love is somehow dangerous and to be avoided.

 

{On a totally unrelated note, sometimes reading these threads (and from watching American movies and tv shows) I am so glad that I didn't have to go through puberty in an American high school. While I recognise that both parents, society and the media put different pressures on both girls and guys to be a certain way all over the world, it seems to me that those pressures are greater on young people in the States.}

[Outcast]

IMO the singular traumatic scarring experience is not as applicable to men and how we learn as many seem to think. People learn over time by amassing experience, and emotional scarring is not as prevalent as pop psychology and self-help books would lead us to believe.

 

Well, thanks for your opinion, but trauma experts differ. In fact, I was surprised to learn that something as simple as a relationship breakup can cause PTSD. This from leading PTSD experts. You don't need something as horrific as a death or murder or crime to be traumatized. Similarly, parental attention or lack thereof during childhood absolutely does scar people.

 

Scoff all you like; you with your 'feminazi' rant are clearly one of the embittered - perhaps you had four experiences; four out of several billion women do not a case make. And certainly your skewed view of society bespeaks a wider misogyny.

 

No, I am not 'shaming men'. Any human of either gender who condemns all members of a group based on the actions of a few of that group are equally blameworthy. If you count yourself among people who are that incapable of using logic, then the shoe fits - and you should be ashamed. People need to require better of themselves.

 

The solution? All humans of both genders need to treat others better; need to understand that all hearts are fragile and behave accordingly. That'll be the day we can all watch the Porcine Aerobatics show.