Boundary Problem Posted January 22, 2010 Posted January 22, 2010 Every marriage I see involving a narcissist has the narcissist dominating most aspects of the relationship. I don't know if it is because they are so willful or because they are so stubborn. But especially if they have a 'player' background, they are used to having their own way in all things. It doesn't occur to them to have two people at a table negotiating what needs will be met in what order. They think they are the boss at all times. And I grant that they will listen when you complain. But they won't budge. It always has to be their way. And they tend to enjoy saying 'no' as well. And when the submissive partner has a need, the narcissist is "in his cave" and feels smothered by the request. They are sort of like a spider. Serve no useful purpose, but bite and cause discomfort and pain from time to time. Some make a lot of money. So the wives put up with those husbands for the status and security. Some women like being with a player and so they like the "excitement". Basically they need a strong woman. But what if you don't want to be 'the bitch' and break or bend their willfulness. What if you love them, but just want a peaceful life. I don't know what the answer is. All I know is I dreamed of spiders last night and I'm scared of them. Spiders and heights. Those are two of my fears. I think it stems from some deficiency in childhood and so they are fixated on having control. Fine. But since when does having control mean everything goes your way? What happened to the phrase paternalistic benevolence? Do all dictators have to be selfish? I'm trying to remember my Russian history but I don't think the "nice" dictators lasted too long, and Stalin had a long reign. Can you imagine being married to a Stalin-type? I can, and I say 'no thx'. At the end of the day - my question is can narcissist be a good partner in marriage? Or does their very core nature prevent them successfully meeting and caring for the other person's expressed needs? I think part of their core nature is to deliberately NOT meet their partner's needs, to weakne the partner, so the partner doesn't leave. Like a spider that keeps biting so you can't walk away. That isn't love. What was that movie where the movie writer got into a snow car accident and Kathy Bates found him and "cared" for him in her isolated home. And when he tried to leave she broke his ankles and made him write more movie scripts for him. That is sort of what narcissists are like. They deliberately harm you emotionally to make you weak so you won't leave them. Totally unhealthy dynamic. I see why they do it. I don't think they are sadistically enjoying what they are doing. They do it so you won't leave because they don't want to be abandoned. But that doesn't excuse their behaviour and selfishness. And again - that isn't love.
betamanlet Posted January 22, 2010 Posted January 22, 2010 Narcissists are becoming more and more common, and we keep on electing them to political office as well. With the internet, reality TV, narcissism will be the norm. Narcissism is only a tad beneath being a sociopath. People with the actual personality disorder are sociopaths. Look at John Edwards. Only admits it because he got busted, denied the child was his, they are compulsive liars who think people believe their lies due to their self importance.
BackUpOrGetStung Posted January 22, 2010 Posted January 22, 2010 Narcissists by definition are in love with themselves...I believe you can have only one true love at a time.
2sure Posted January 22, 2010 Posted January 22, 2010 My H is a generous, sensitive, unselfish, non-demanding, compromising , and sacrificing partner. He loves me. He is also a serial cheater. He is also a narcissist. His perspective and perception are ultimately different than yours or mine.
betamanlet Posted January 22, 2010 Posted January 22, 2010 My H is a generous, sensitive, unselfish, non-demanding, compromising , and sacrificing partner. He loves me. He is also a serial cheater. He is also a narcissist. His perspective and perception are ultimately different than yours or mine. You can't be an unselfish narcissist. They think the world revoles around them, it's like they still act like they are 5 years old... What they can do is feign emotions and concern, in order to get what they want. His unselfishness is not genuine. It's a tool to get something.
Simon Attwood Posted January 22, 2010 Posted January 22, 2010 We are all narcissists to some extent or other. A little narcissism is healthy.
Trialbyfire Posted January 22, 2010 Posted January 22, 2010 2sure, has your husband ever been clinically diagnosed with NPD? Is it possible he has a different disorder or has a sex addiction?
New_Life08 Posted January 22, 2010 Posted January 22, 2010 You are absolutely right. My ex husband was everything you described to a tee. I believe narcissism often stems from being raised in a traditional household where dad was the bread-winner and mom was the home-maker. But facing changes such as women being strong and capable can cause an obsession to be in control, and is labeled narcissism. I truly think male narcissists are taught (whether intentionally or not) that being the bread-winner and the head of household defines their manhood. When a woman steps up to say wait a minute, I want more out of life than this...they feel they have failed in some way and go to great lengths to keep their manhood in tact. I think narcissism is a lack of understanding, empathy, and respect which is something learned early on.... and rarely do adults make the effort to change that mindset...it is all they know and live by.
2sure Posted January 22, 2010 Posted January 22, 2010 [QUOTE=Trialbyfire;2613941]2sure, has your husband ever been clinically diagnosed with NPD? Is it possible he has a different disorder or has a sex addiction? Yep - got the paperwork. And yes, I agree - the disorder itself is selfishness, so to say he unselfish is not quite right. Its strange though - his selfishness has hurt him the most, caused him to undermine HIMSELF. It really has, and he knows this and feels it but still...its like a narcissist views the world from a skewed perception. They just dont get it. They suffer sometimes as much as those around them. But yes, they are not to be lived with.
meerkat stew Posted January 22, 2010 Posted January 22, 2010 "Narcissism" is one of the most misused words in the language. 90% of the time, when women call men narcissists, it means that they are just bossy or selfish, not sufferers of NPD. One poster has a diagnosis of her H, these are the few excpetions. I wish people would stop tossing this term around, as it detracts from those who are in relationships with or recovering from a tangle with a truly disordered person.
Simon Attwood Posted January 22, 2010 Posted January 22, 2010 (edited) I feel we are often too keen to throw the word "narcissist" at a relationship problem. I've done it before myself, until I learned a bit more about it. It becomes a convenient label and category in to which we neatly fit everything. It's a blatant misuse of the term. I thought a link to the wiki page on narcissism might be useful at this point http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Narcissism Essentially, narcissism is the manifestation of our phylogeny, our inherited animal instincts. Without narcissism we would have no desire, no drive, no ambitions, etc. Narcissism is essential, narcissism provides our reason for living, and without narcissism we'd essentially be lifeless losers. Narcissism is also tied to our defence mechanisms. Where it becomes destructive is when we are in a permanent state of threat (whether imagined physical threat or some form of psychological or emotional threat), for when we are in a permanent state of threat, we are unable to exhibit empathy. It is completely dysfunctional to be consciously in a state of threat, so the state's awareness is repressed and/or denied. The destructive narcissist becomes aware that others are capable of empathy, but that empathy is missing in themselves, they sense a core emptiness because something that essentially makes others human, is missing in themselves. So they act out a counterfeit empathy so that, the difference they perceive in themselves, is hidden from others, and even, to some extent, disguised from their own awareness. The destructive narcissist, lacking empathy, can therefore not see themselves through others eyes. All the destructive actions of the DNP are caused by responding to a threat that they are not consciously aware of, or trying to compensate for the core emptiness they feel because they lack the core human feeling that is empathy. Essentially, destructive narcissism is a persecutory and inferiority complex combined. And the manifestation of the DNP is caused by trying to compensate for this combined persecutory/inferiority complex. Edited January 22, 2010 by Simon Attwood
paddington bear Posted January 22, 2010 Posted January 22, 2010 (I must be totally stupid, I can't figure out how to multi-quote) Betamanlet: Narcissists are becoming more and more common - if this is the case, why do you think that is? I agree that the word narcissism is being bandied around without a full awareness of what a true narcissist is (a bit like people saying that they have a really bad 'flu, when in fact it was just a cold, then they get the real 'flu and know all about it). People I think are confusing it for a degree of arrogance and self-absorption. Interesting about the lack of empathy being at the core of this and it makes sense to me now. I came across a real narcissist and this lack of empathy I think was what kept me confused for so long, I just assumed this person could put themselves in my shoes, and see that their behaviour was genuinely hurting me a lot, I even told them in a fair way, while examining myself that their behaviour was hurting me and unacceptable, but they couldn't understand why I would think badly of them, couldn't understand that they might have done anything wrong because obviously, they were perfect and wonderful and had no faults whatsoever. The answer is no, narcissists do not make good partners. The answer is avoid these people like the plague. If someone lacks all ability to empathise with other human beings, this cannot and will not lead to any kind of healthy relationship with anyone. Can I add as a side note that if narcissism (in the bad sense) has its roots in an inferiority complex it makes me think that I've noticed insecure people with low self-esteem cause a hell of a lot of damage to others in relationships than those with a more normal sense of self worth, the former can be highly destructive.
Trialbyfire Posted January 22, 2010 Posted January 22, 2010 Yep - got the paperwork. And yes, I agree - the disorder itself is selfishness, so to say he unselfish is not quite right. Its strange though - his selfishness has hurt him the most, caused him to undermine HIMSELF. It really has, and he knows this and feels it but still...its like a narcissist views the world from a skewed perception. They just dont get it. They suffer sometimes as much as those around them. But yes, they are not to be lived with.Good. The term gets over-used. Disorders are categorized by traits and degree of severity. I agree that with people who have NPD, they don't think the same way as most other people. Most often, other people don't rate any consideration, only what they feel. So, in essence, they're only out to get what they need or to express how they feel. There's no deliberate intent to do damage, most of the time, unless they feel you've hurt them.
aerogurl87 Posted January 22, 2010 Posted January 22, 2010 You can be a narcissist and still care about other people. I'm pretty sure I'm a mild narcissist and as much as I love myself, I love all my friends and my family alot. I would do anything within my power to help them if I could. So I guess it depends on the degree of narcissism as to how hard it would be to make a relationship with a narcissist work.
deux ex machina Posted January 23, 2010 Posted January 23, 2010 I feel we are often too keen to throw the word "narcissist" at a relationship problem. I've done it before myself, until I learned a bit more about it. It becomes a convenient label and category in to which we neatly fit everything. It's a blatant misuse of the term. I thought a link to the wiki page on narcissism might be useful at this point http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Narcissism Essentially, narcissism is the manifestation of our phylogeny, our inherited animal instincts. Without narcissism we would have no desire, no drive, no ambitions, etc. Narcissism is essential, narcissism provides our reason for living, and without narcissism we'd essentially be lifeless losers. Narcissism is also tied to our defence mechanisms. Where it becomes destructive is when we are in a permanent state of threat (whether imagined physical threat or some form of psychological or emotional threat), for when we are in a permanent state of threat, we are unable to exhibit empathy. It is completely dysfunctional to be consciously in a state of threat, so the state's awareness is repressed and/or denied. The destructive narcissist becomes aware that others are capable of empathy, but that empathy is missing in themselves, they sense a core emptiness because something that essentially makes others human, is missing in themselves. So they act out a counterfeit empathy so that, the difference they perceive in themselves, is hidden from others, and even, to some extent, disguised from their own awareness. The destructive narcissist, lacking empathy, can therefore not see themselves through others eyes. All the destructive actions of the DNP are caused by responding to a threat that they are not consciously aware of, or trying to compensate for the core emptiness they feel because they lack the core human feeling that is empathy. Essentially, destructive narcissism is a persecutory and inferiority complex combined. And the manifestation of the DNP is caused by trying to compensate for this combined persecutory/inferiority complex. Spot on. They are interpersonally exploitive - people are no more than action figures, to be used as reflective surfaces, props, pawns, supply, ect. To be degraded and devalued, or (rarely, in "reflective surfaces") not - as circumstances demand. They are aggressive ("under threat") - once you get a taste of narcissistic rage, you will never forget it. Mainly, they are covertly aggressive - by far that is how it manifests. It is very, very subtle. It takes a highly perceptive person to recognize it for what it is, and this is why a person with NPD will definitely consider a perceptive person as a threat...even if they don't know exactly why they feel that way. The lack of insight and empathy, endless search for supply, and exploitative/covertly aggressive traits of an N tend to leave a high body count behind. They have a disorder. Thus a distorted view of the world, which one must share. If you don't subscribe to their POV (which one will not, because it is a distortion), and value truth, life with a person with NPD will be an endless slide in a bottomless pit. You never, ever want to have a relationship with a person who has NPD.
silverfish Posted January 23, 2010 Posted January 23, 2010 Yet they get the most action out of any men. Don't know if thats true, but the lack of empathy makes it fairly one dimensional. They lose out on the rest of the relationship too, theres no empathy and no intimacy.
Woggle Posted January 23, 2010 Posted January 23, 2010 Don't know if thats true, but the lack of empathy makes it fairly one dimensional. They lose out on the rest of the relationship too, theres no empathy and no intimacy. When do women ever have empathy for men in the first place? Narcissists are just returning the favor.
silverfish Posted January 23, 2010 Posted January 23, 2010 When do women ever have empathy for men in the first place? Narcissists are just returning the favor. Who said all narcissists were men?
Trialbyfire Posted January 23, 2010 Posted January 23, 2010 once you get a taste of narcissistic rage, you will never forget it.It truly is unforgettable, since there are no boundaries. Lucky for me, there was no physical violence. I suspect for some, they're not so lucky.
Woggle Posted January 23, 2010 Posted January 23, 2010 Who said all narcissists were men? It is implied in this thread. Most women in general are narcissists. In fact there are very few that aren't.
silverfish Posted January 23, 2010 Posted January 23, 2010 It truly is unforgettable, since there are no boundaries. Lucky for me, there was no physical violence. I suspect for some, they're not so lucky. No they're pretty canny like that...very aware of not wanting to 'look bad' to other people or get into trouble...its all about how they see themselves.
paddington bear Posted January 23, 2010 Posted January 23, 2010 It truly is unforgettable, since there are no boundaries. Lucky for me, there was no physical violence. I suspect for some, they're not so lucky. Yup. I've been on the receiving end. Truly unforgettable it is. Worst thing is with no concept of how deeply they are both frightening to you and how much they are hurting you. And after the terrible rage, still assume that you will think they are wonderful. I think that they for sure can spot someone who has found them out and get very uneasy around those people (i.e. me) and then all sorts of nastiness is unleashed without a care in the world what effect it is having on the person they are doing it do. All the while you've been tricked into not hurting them, not upsetting them, because of course, the world revolves around them and only them.
meerkat stew Posted January 23, 2010 Posted January 23, 2010 Yet they get the most action out of any men. Dunno about that, bet bipolars get more tail. I read somewhere that 70-80% of all NPDs were men and 70-80% of all BPDs were women. Not in a googly mood tonight, so take those numbers loosely.
paddington bear Posted January 23, 2010 Posted January 23, 2010 Dunno about that, bet bipolars get more tail. I read somewhere that 70-80% of all NPDs were men and 70-80% of all BPDs were women. Not in a googly mood tonight, so take those numbers loosely. "It found that the lifetime prevalence of narcissistic personality disorder among American adults is 6 percent The lifetime prevalence of the disorder was significantly greater among men than among women (8 versus 5 percent)." http://pn.psychiatryonline.org/content/43/15/38.1.full BPD: "It is a common disorder with estimates running as high as 10-14% of the general population. The frequency in women is two to three times greater than men."http://www.stanford.edu/~corelli/borderline.html
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