dreamergrl Posted January 18, 2010 Posted January 18, 2010 I don't think it's fair to consider someone who doesn't want to wait until marriage a scumbag. Everyone has different needs and wants. It's about finding someone who's compatible with that. Just because a guy or girl isn't sexually compatible doesn't mean they are a bad person.
PinkToes Posted January 18, 2010 Posted January 18, 2010 All i want is to be able to build a solid foundation of friendship with a guy first without the sexual aspect..what do you guys think:o I think this is a totally reasonable expectation, and much probably healthier in the long run. But it's really not about celibacy as much as it is about establishing a relationship before you introduce sex into the mix. It sounds like you may have been starting with the sex, and then hoping the relationship would take hold from there? Also there's absolutely no reason you should ever feel the need to have sex with someone before you're ready.
thegreatmoose Posted January 18, 2010 Posted January 18, 2010 How long do you prefer to wait? Let's put it this way. Those magical 3 words "I love you" should be exchanged first.
Johnny M Posted January 18, 2010 Posted January 18, 2010 Let's put it this way. Those magical 3 words "I love you" should be exchanged first. How romantic But what if the magical three words are exchanged, but there is still no sex? Is that acceptable?
thegreatmoose Posted January 18, 2010 Posted January 18, 2010 (edited) But what if the magical three words are exchanged, but there is still no sex? Is that acceptable? It doesn't have to be immediately after those 3 words. The sex should occur when both of us are ready. Ideally both of us would be ready around the same time. Edited January 18, 2010 by thegreatmoose
Enema Posted January 18, 2010 Posted January 18, 2010 I'm sure you understand that you're cutting down the pool of available men quite a bit and for better or worse, you'll be left with guys that don't mind waiting. Their reasons are as red-flaggy as yours.
dreamergrl Posted January 18, 2010 Posted January 18, 2010 Will no sex really fix the emotional problems you have in a relationship?
sagetalk Posted January 18, 2010 Posted January 18, 2010 That's not entirely fair. The female's wants/desires are important, but they are no more important than the male's, nor do either supersede the other. That could easily be flipped around to say a female who refuses to have sex without a ring on her finger is using sex as a weapon to force marriage and does not truly love her guy. It is fair. If she doesn't want to have sex, and that drives you crazy, then dump her. Trying to guilt her into sex before she wants to is lame/scumbag behavior. A real man respects a women's wishes in a dating relationship, and leaves or stands by her wishes. I am a very patient guy as far as physical acts go, but the "waiting for marriage" ideology is one that is not compatible with me. Not because I am a scumbag who only wants sex, but because that line of thinking is not reasonable to me. Waiting six months because she is not comfortable yet would be acceptable to me, while waiting that same amount of time for marriage would not be. I didn't say you were a scumbag because you don't want to wait, I said a guy is a scumbag if the girl doesn't want to have sex yet and he tries to force the issue. "If it takes until marriage" is what I said. If a man truly loves a women he would wait for her if that's what she wanted. Now, after you're married is completely different story. You've committed the rest of your life to her, she's gotta give it up . It also comes down to how you show affection. The whole love language thing. I am one of the people who prefers touch to display affection. Being consistently rejected (and this is not confined to sex, though it does include it) would eventually make me feel unloved. I don't think that makes me a bad person who is only using partners as much as it makes me incompatible with certain partners. Love and sex are two completely different things altogether. Porn stars aren't in love, heck, most people dating aren't in love, but they have sex all the time with each other. Sex is a way to act on your passion, affection, and physical desire for someone, but it is not love. If you are not compatible with someone who doesn't want sex while dating, then dump them move it on. But don't give them bull crap like, "You don't love me because you won't have sex with me" when they have clearly said they aren't ready.
dreamergrl Posted January 18, 2010 Posted January 18, 2010 I didn't say you were a scumbag because you don't want to wait, I said a guy is a scumbag if the girl doesn't want to have sex yet and he tries to force the issue. "If it takes until marriage" is what I said. If a man truly loves a women he would wait for her if that's what she wanted. Now, after you're married is completely different story. You've committed the rest of your life to her, she's gotta give it up . But a man (or woman) can love someone and not be willing to wait until marriage. It's not fair for one person's needs and wants to be met but not the other.
sagetalk Posted January 18, 2010 Posted January 18, 2010 I don't think it's fair to consider someone who doesn't want to wait until marriage a scumbag. Everyone has different needs and wants. It's about finding someone who's compatible with that. Just because a guy or girl isn't sexually compatible doesn't mean they are a bad person. Read my post again. A guy that tries to get her to have sex in a dating relationship when she doesn't want to is a scumbag.
dreamergrl Posted January 18, 2010 Posted January 18, 2010 Read my post again. A guy that tries to get her to have sex in a dating relationship when she doesn't want to is a scumbag. So a guy who has needs as well as she does is a scumbag? Just because he wants to have sex with her? It doesn't have to mean that's all he wants. Maybe he wants that emotional and intimate connection, know that it's there before marriage.
sagetalk Posted January 18, 2010 Posted January 18, 2010 But a man (or woman) can love someone and not be willing to wait until marriage. It's not fair for one person's needs and wants to be met but not the other. I disagree completely. Love is greater than sex. The only way a man could not wait (if that's what she wanted) is if his desire for sex was greater than his love for the women. If that's the case, then they should not be together.
dreamergrl Posted January 18, 2010 Posted January 18, 2010 I disagree completely. Love is greater than sex. The only way a man could not wait (if that's what she wanted) is if his desire for sex was greater than his love for the women. If that's the case, then they should not be together. Why is it just about what she wants though?
Johnny M Posted January 18, 2010 Posted January 18, 2010 It doesn't have to be immediately after those 3 words. The sex should occur when both of us are ready. Ideally both of us would be ready around the same time. Okay, let me modify my original question. How long are you prepared to wait after the "magical words" are exchanged?
sagetalk Posted January 18, 2010 Posted January 18, 2010 So a guy who has needs as well as she does is a scumbag? Just because he wants to have sex with her? It doesn't have to mean that's all he wants. Maybe he wants that emotional and intimate connection, know that it's there before marriage. If he has needs that he can't put aside for her, then he should dump her when she says that she wants to wait to have sex. If he pressures/guilt her to do something against her wishes, yes, he is a scumbag.
dreamergrl Posted January 18, 2010 Posted January 18, 2010 If he has needs that he can't put aside for her, then he should dump her when she says that she wants to wait to have sex. If he pressures/guilt her to do something against her wishes, yes, he is a scumbag. He shouldn't guilt her into it, but he should be able to voice that he wants to share that with her. A person shouldn't expect a person to serve their needs if they can't do the same for another. Sex doesn't have to be some nasty thing that's being held over someone's head, or withheld until a person gets what they want.
hoping2heal Posted January 18, 2010 Posted January 18, 2010 If he has needs that he can't put aside for her, then he should dump her when she says that she wants to wait to have sex. If he pressures/guilt her to do something against her wishes, yes, he is a scumbag. I guess this is one of those double standard things. He should put his needs aside for her; but she shouldn't have to put her needs aside for him or that would make said person a scumbag. There is no right or fair, just what is socially acceptable and what is not. Now, I'm HARDLY suggesting the OP is witholding sex with ill intentions, however women do withold sex for power, control, as form of punishment etc. This makes the man feel devalued and rejected and we seem to think this is fine and acceptable behavior and during that time, forbid a man bring up the S word or he is a complete jerk. Anyhow, it is as simple as this; if she wants to wait until a certain point to have sex she simply needs to be up front straight off the bat with all potential relationship partners. This is the fair thing to do because it gives them the opportunity to decide wether they can handle being in a non sexual relationship or wether they would rather not. If they know up front sex is off the menu and continue to persue her in spite of that; then he doesn't get the right to pressure or complain but that doesn't mean every man who will decide they want a sexual relationship at some point is a horndog scum bum, and every guy who says "okay we can wait" is an automatic knight in shining armour wonder prince. EDIT: As an aside, OP mentioned her reasons for witholding sex were mental and emotional reasons. If that is the case it's important she seeks some sort of therapeutic intervention to deal with those issues so she can enjoy a pleasurable sex life when she decides that she is ready. Simply ignoring sex won't make whatever those "mental/emotional" hinderances are go away.
sagetalk Posted January 18, 2010 Posted January 18, 2010 Why is it just about what she wants though? I still believe in treating women with respect and honor, and if a man cannot place his physical desires in check until a girl is ready, then he does not love or deserve her.
Bejita463 Posted January 18, 2010 Posted January 18, 2010 It is fair. If she doesn't want to have sex, and that drives you crazy, then dump her. Trying to guilt her into sex before she wants to is lame/scumbag behavior. A real man respects a women's wishes in a dating relationship, and leaves or stands by her wishes. Um. If he would dump you over that, he is a scumbag. Having different views on this issue does not make either party right or wrong. It makes them incompatible. Trying to force the issue is wrong, I agree, but that is not the point I took from that particular post. I didn't say you were a scumbag because you don't want to wait, I said a guy is a scumbag if the girl doesn't want to have sex yet and he tries to force the issue. "If it takes until marriage" is what I said. If a man truly loves a women he would wait for her if that's what she wanted. Now, after you're married is completely different story. You've committed the rest of your life to her, she's gotta give it up . You didn't mention guilting or attempting to force the issue though. The way you worded it only implied that unwillingness to wait automatically means the guy is a scumbag who doesn't care, because he would wait if he did. That is the concept I was disagreeing with. Love and sex are two completely different things altogether. Porn stars aren't in love, heck, most people dating aren't in love, but they have sex all the time with each other. Sex is a way to act on your passion, affection, and physical desire for someone, but it is not love. If you are not compatible with someone who doesn't want sex while dating, then dump them move it on. But don't give them bull crap like, "You don't love me because you won't have sex with me" when they have clearly said they aren't ready. Okay? I didn't say sex. I said physical affection, of which sex is only a part. My point there stands. Continual physical rejection of any kind when your method of displaying affection tends towards the physical sucks. What is your preferred way of giving/receiving affection? I'm going to venture a guess it is verbal, since my personal experience shows that to be the most common and the most likely to be the correct guess as a result. So. The fact that you prefer verbal affection does not entitle you to my telling you of love. That would be asinine. However, if I outright refused to return verbal affection it would make you unhappy I'd wager. How is physical affection different, if that is your way? It doesn't entitle you to sex, but rejection still hurts.
sagetalk Posted January 18, 2010 Posted January 18, 2010 however women do withold sex for power, control, as form of punishment etc. This makes the man feel devalued and rejected and we seem to think this is fine and acceptable behavior and during that time, forbid a man bring up the S word or he is a complete jerk. Women who use sex for control are pond scum. They have sex with a guy, then take it away whenever they feel like it. They are awful. Those women are not what I'm talking about. I'm talking about girls that are dating and choosing when to have sex with a guy for the first time in the relationship. If they choose to wait a while it is not using power or control, and a man should honor that. Anyhow, it is as simple as this; if she wants to wait until a certain point to have sex she simply needs to be up front straight off the bat with all potential relationship partners. This is excellent advice.
Johnny M Posted January 18, 2010 Posted January 18, 2010 I still believe in treating women with respect and honor, and if a man cannot place his physical desires in check until a girl is ready, then he does not love or deserve her. You seem to have some kind of a pathological obsession with the 'chivalric ideal', which even in the good old days did not exist outside of the realm of romantic literature. Successful relationships are always based on mutual respect and accommodating the needs and desires of both parties. It's ludicrous to suggest that a man does not deserve or love a woman unless he puts her needs and desires above his own. In fact, many women expect a man to start making sexual advances relatively early in the dating process. By being differential and waiting for her to "get ready", you're pretty much guaranteed to end up in the friend zone. A romantic relationship is simply impossible without sexual tension.
dreamergrl Posted January 18, 2010 Posted January 18, 2010 I still believe in treating women with respect and honor, and if a man cannot place his physical desires in check until a girl is ready, then he does not love or deserve her. This could go the other way too. As harmful said, it's a double standard. To some people sex is a part of love. Having a sexual bond. Sex is a part of being intimate. Wanting to feel desired in every which way. It's quite a beautiful thing.
sagetalk Posted January 18, 2010 Posted January 18, 2010 You seem to have some kind of a pathological obsession with the 'chivalric ideal', which even in the good old days did not exist outside of the realm of romantic literature. Successful relationships are always based on mutual respect and accommodating the needs and desires of both parties. It's ludicrous to suggest that a man does not deserve or love a woman unless he puts her needs and desires above his own. In fact, many women expect a man to start making sexual advances relatively early in the dating process. Spare me your predictable mocking of chivalry . If only people mocked the real horrible things in this world like they make fun of chivalry. Mutual respect means, if she doesn't want it yet and you do, back off. If a women expects you to make a move and become sexual with her early on, then you better do it if you want her. But if she wants to wait, then you should also wait or find another girl. It's not complicated.
Bejita463 Posted January 18, 2010 Posted January 18, 2010 If a women expects you to make a move and become sexual with her early on, then you better do it if you want her. What if I want her, but am not yet ready for that?
dreamergrl Posted January 18, 2010 Posted January 18, 2010 Spare me your predictable mocking of chivalry . If only people mocked the real horrible things in this world like they make fun of chivalry. Mutual respect means, if she doesn't want it yet and you do, back off. If a women expects you to make a move and become sexual with her early on, then you better do it if you want her. But if she wants to wait, then you should also wait or find another girl. It's not complicated. You are saying that it is only about her wants. There's nothing mutual about that.
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