EricaH329 Posted January 16, 2010 Posted January 16, 2010 For example: You hear about people who put up this 'front' in the beginning of a relationship so that the other person won't see their flaws. They try to act like someone they aren't, or at least aren't all the time. However, as time passes, this 'front' of theirs begins to tumble down. And we begin to see them for who they are. This is an extremely important part of a relationship. This, among other things, will let you know if you're going to last. I've learned that if you keep saying to yourself, 'Well they've changed, I know they can go back to who they were before...', or 'This is just a phase they are going through...' you will be sorely disappointed. I digress. My main question is, in your experience, how long does this 'front' tend to last? And, if they are to be called out on it (like most do) and they promise to become the person they used to be again, how long does that last? Do you really think that a person can become someone they aren't (if they truely love another) forever? Or is there really no hope for some people? No matter how much they love eachother? I'm in a weird mood. Too many thoughts. I need to get out.
sadintexas Posted January 16, 2010 Posted January 16, 2010 My main question is, in your experience, how long does this 'front' tend to last? 3-6 months And, if they are to be called out on it (like most do) and they promise to become the person they used to be again, how long does that last? As long as they can keep the front up, but my guess is much shorter than the original 3-6 months. Do you really think that a person can become someone they aren't (if they truely love another) forever? I believe people can change if they want to, but never is it an overnight process. Changing established behavior and patterns takes desire, time, work and dedication. 3-6 months is the usual time frame that someone can keep a front up. The more time you spend together, the harder it is for them to do. It is so important to pay attention to cracks in their armour...the RED FLAGS! Because...this is the same amount of time that it will take for you to get hooked so it's a dangerous combination.
Payden Posted January 16, 2010 Posted January 16, 2010 What do you mean?... Like if you and I were dating and I tried to be a suave, innocent, kind person to win you over? Well maybe at first I would be extra nice..really going out of my way to pull the chair out for you.... opening the car door for you or trying not to fart in front of you lol. I suppose I can be a jerk later on,,,, and that will show thruogh as time goes on, but I actually know this bad trait of mine and it is part reason I do not bring anyone seriously into my heart.... It would just make a relationship a mess. I actually admit why I suck.... I am shy, I have a esteem problem, I think bad thoughts sometimes and I have a bad habit of being extrememly defensive..even on things I have no idea what I am talking about. At first maybe you wouldn't see that, but eventually you would. At least I'm smart enough not to waste someone's time in dealing with me. I wouldn't even try for a relationship if I am not already 100% content with myself anyways. Why should anyone ese deal with my BS?.. I'm NOT going to be one of those guys my girl needs to "fix"... I'd rather be alone than to be one of those guys.
Kizzyfur Posted January 16, 2010 Posted January 16, 2010 My sisters current boyfriend was able to keep up his front till she moved in with him. I don't know how long they were together before then. He used to treat her good and buy her things seeming like a sweetheart. But since then he has treated her like S--T and it only gets worse as time goes on. Every time she talks to him about it he promises to change and that lasts maybe a week. I am seriously not sure why she stays with him. I feel it's because she doesn't want to be alone. Or it could be because she is only hoping someday he will change and be the man she thought he was. We all know the latter is not likely.
Simon Attwood Posted January 16, 2010 Posted January 16, 2010 I think to some extent or other we all act like someone we are not (this phenomenon is magnified on the internet due to the anonymity that it affords us). Our personalities are largely built upon a reflection of the external images of ourselves that are given to us by others., and it is natural that we would try and manipulate their perspectives to allow them to see us favourably so that we can then see ourselves favourably. For many, this "front" comes to define them, and therefore living closely with another allows the other to begin to see through, this then is perceived as a threat to our identity and creates the vast majority of conflict within relationships (whether or not another rationalisation has been nurtured to protect from the threat that true self awareness poses to identity, or not).
Lovelybird Posted January 16, 2010 Posted January 16, 2010 What is the "real they" look like? Did they make you feel uncomfortable? There are bad traits belongs to character issues, if it is, then it is difficult to be changed
freestyle Posted January 16, 2010 Posted January 16, 2010 I believe it some cases, it's a natural inclination to put one's "best foot forward"......... like a person would do on a job interview. and it's possible that the niceness is genuine in the beginning, as people's brains are steeped in all the "feel-good" chemicals, and they walk around in a state of euphoria. (cloud 9) IMO, a conscientious person will take things slowly during those first few months. I remember a guy telling me, "Hey, you haven't seen my bad side yet..........don't be so quick to say you love me....." Hard, and painful experience has taught me, years later, not to put too much stock in anything said or done during the initial "honeymoon" phase of a relationship. Real love is what grows if you still like each other, after the honeymoon is over, the masks are off, and the cards are on the table. I would caution everyone however, to be careful with people who move waaaaay too fast. From what I've studied, it's a common tactic of both physical and emotional abusers to, "hook you in" by sweeping you off your feet.......before they begin grooming you to be abused. If someone truly cares, and is in love with you, then you're worth waiting for.
JackJack Posted January 16, 2010 Posted January 16, 2010 This is why to me, when people say go with the first impression, I don't always find that to be correct. Sure SOMETIMES it is. BUT, there are times when a person will not show you who they truly are because they do put on a front etc. Then later on, the person will reveal who they truly are. Then there are times when people do truly show you who they are in the beginning, and some choose to look the other way. Then later on they are appalled that a person is the way they are, but had they looked a little closer, they would have have seen that person had shown them who they were all along.
threebyfate Posted January 16, 2010 Posted January 16, 2010 I believe it some cases, it's a natural inclination to put one's "best foot forward"......... like a person would do on a job interview. and it's possible that the niceness is genuine in the beginning, as people's brains are steeped in all the "feel-good" chemicals, and they walk around in a state of euphoria. (cloud 9) IMO, a conscientious person will take things slowly during those first few months. I remember a guy telling me, "Hey, you haven't seen my bad side yet..........don't be so quick to say you love me....." Hard, and painful experience has taught me, years later, not to put too much stock in anything said or done during the initial "honeymoon" phase of a relationship. Real love is what grows if you still like each other, after the honeymoon is over, the masks are off, and the cards are on the table. I would caution everyone however, to be careful with people who move waaaaay too fast. From what I've studied, it's a common tactic of both physical and emotional abusers to, "hook you in" by sweeping you off your feet.......before they begin grooming you to be abused. If someone truly cares, and is in love with you, then you're worth waiting for.Previous to meeting my husband, I would have agreed with you 100%. Can't do that anymore, since we got engaged a little over six weeks into dating. Who he showed he was, right out the gate, is who he is. So, overall, trust your gut instincts aka spidey sense and if there's no tingling of danger, high or low-level discomfort, AND his words and actions mesh, AND he's consistent, don't stymy and possibly destroy something that's potentially so worthwhile.
Author EricaH329 Posted January 16, 2010 Author Posted January 16, 2010 So, overall, trust your gut instincts aka spidey sense and if there's no tingling of danger, high or low-level discomfort, AND his words and actions mesh, AND he's consistent, don't stymy and possibly destroy something that's potentially so worthwhile. But couldn't those traits also be considered a 'front' in the beginning of a relationship? Like, if someone was trying to act like that to impress you, but isn't really like that? I suppose it's one of those chances you take when getting into a relationship. sadintexas2601239- Good point!! It's so hard to notice red flags though, when you are caught up in the honeymoon stage of a relationship. Payden2601399- ! You always make me laugh! But on a serious note, I really admire the fact that you recognize that you have certain aspects about yourself that you'd like to work on before bringing someone else into your life. Not very many people do that. Kizzyfur2601400- I was in a very similar situation. That's actually what brought me to write this thread. He will not change. The person that he was in the beginning isn't who he really is. It's so hard to accept that. I understand her situation. Simon Attwood2601437- Wow, I never thought of it like that!! You are so right! Thinking back on it now, most of the arguements in my past relationship were due to the fact that I wasn't being treated the same way that I was initially. Lovelybird2601480- Oh, i'm not talking about abusive behaviour. Just someone that they portrayed to be the opposite of initially. freestyle2601725-I do understand your point! And it's a very good one! I've noticed (also with myself) that a lot of people around me are rushing into relationships, and moving in together. I do see some positives and negatives to that. The negatives, which you have stated. The positives, that in that case, you get to know a person quicker than you would if you had not moved in together, for example. JackJack2601766- True! First impressions are always tricky. Sometimes people aren't sneaky enough to pull off a great first impression. Some are. You never really know until you get to know a person.
threebyfate Posted January 16, 2010 Posted January 16, 2010 But couldn't those traits also be considered a 'front' in the beginning of a relationship? Like, if someone was trying to act like that to impress you, but isn't really like that? I suppose it's one of those chances you take when getting into a relationship.I can honestly say using hindsight, that red flags showed up really quickly, each time AND my spidey-sense was tingling.
Author EricaH329 Posted January 16, 2010 Author Posted January 16, 2010 I can honestly say using hindsight, that red flags showed up really quickly, each time AND my spidey-sense was tingling. Good point!! I don't think we give our gut-instincts enough credit sometimes!
freestyle Posted January 16, 2010 Posted January 16, 2010 Previous to meeting my husband, I would have agreed with you 100%. Can't do that anymore, since we got engaged a little over six weeks into dating. Who he showed he was, right out the gate, is who he is. So, overall, trust your gut instincts aka spidey sense and if there's no tingling of danger, high or low-level discomfort, AND his words and actions mesh, AND he's consistent, don't stymy and possibly destroy something that's potentially so worthwhile. I'm chuckling (not condescendingly).....because your story (what I know of it)actually popped into my head as I was writing that post. Ironically, I was considering using your story as an example that there can be exceptions to the rule. In your case, you seem to be an intelligent and perceptive person........ who has already learned (from your NPD ex) what red flags to watch out for. In a bizarre way, I guess that something good came from having that experience, your senses may have gotten sharpened. Yours may be a success story, but I remain skeptical about that being the norm in most "whirlwind" romances. I do realize my skepticism is most likely rooted in my own experiences, I've survived a handful of abusive relationships. I do have a good measure of the "burned my hand on a hot stove, etc. " complex. I'm ultra-cautious, and perhaps that has been to my detriment in some cases. It would be interesting to see if there have been any studies regarding the longevity of whirlwind romances, what the percentages are............
threebyfate Posted January 16, 2010 Posted January 16, 2010 Good point!! I don't think we give our gut-instincts enough credit sometimes!Human beings have gut instincts for the reason of self-protection. The fight or flight instinct has been honed over thousands of years and can't be explained. Think about when you get the feeling that someone is staring hard at you and you look around to see who it is and sure enough, spot someone. Can anyone explain this phenomenon? Nope. The human mind is amazing. It's also really stupid. We can rationalize just about anything that's not healthy or good for us, by either trivializing it or just, plain being self-indulgent aka "authentic" on LS.
threebyfate Posted January 16, 2010 Posted January 16, 2010 I'm chuckling (not condescendingly).....because your story (what I know of it)actually popped into my head as I was writing that post. Ironically, I was considering using your story as an example that there can be exceptions to the rule. In your case, you seem to be an intelligent and perceptive person........ who has already learned (from your NPD ex) what red flags to watch out for. In a bizarre way, I guess that something good came from having that experience, your senses may have gotten sharpened. Yours may be a success story, but I remain skeptical about that being the norm in most "whirlwind" romances. I do realize my skepticism is most likely rooted in my own experiences, I've survived a handful of abusive relationships. I do have a good measure of the "burned my hand on a hot stove, etc. " complex. I'm ultra-cautious, and perhaps that has been to my detriment in some cases. It would be interesting to see if there have been any studies regarding the longevity of whirlwind romances, what the percentages are............Look back at your abusive relationships using hindsight. Were there any red flags that you ignored? Did words and actions always mesh?
threebyfate Posted January 16, 2010 Posted January 16, 2010 http://www.loveshack.org/forums/showthread.php?t=215902&page=2 While not everyone is a "list" person, take a look at an older thread of mine. When I applied the "needs" list to past relationships/marriage that didn't work out, they all failed the test badly. The worst number was failing 16/25 of my needs. What was I thinking...seriously! And I can honestly say that my marriage meets all my needs and most of my wants. I'll be using an amended list, if in any way, something feels off or wrong within the marriage, to try to pinpoint the spidey sense tingling. Once you identify what it is, it's possible to do something about it. Too often, we casually brush off problems as being too trivial to address. And most often, as separate incidents, they are too trivial. But when you pay attention, these incidents can add up to destructive patterns of behaviour, whether it's the underlying issue of a lack of respect or dysfunctional coping tools. And at the end of the day, there are no guarantees in relationships/marriages lasting forever. So...if one implodes, you learn something from the experience, move on and if you're not emotionally fragile, survive and thrive.
hopesndreams Posted January 16, 2010 Posted January 16, 2010 I've only been dating for a short time and am finding, without that "front", the man I am dating, at the time, is not interested. They want the game, the dating ritual stuff, the mating dance bs...I have refused to act like a teen, am a grown woman, what you see is what you get. As soon as I get a whiff of phoniness from him, I move on. Maybe that's just me? So far, yes, it is.
freestyle Posted January 16, 2010 Posted January 16, 2010 Look back at your abusive relationships using hindsight. Were there any red flags that you ignored? Did words and actions always mesh? Oh, absolutely, I was young and dumb. (emotionally dumb, anyways). I don't think I'd even heard the term "red flag" in regard to relationships back then. (this was mid-80's, and the self-help movement was still very young) I had no clue as to what a healthy relationship should look like, coming from a broken home. So I put up with a lot of crap in my early dating years, that would never fly with me right now. Never anything physical, which I would've nipped in the bud instantly, but the far more insidious emotional abuse. The kind that creeps in slowly, subtly. Looking back, over twenty years later, I shake my head at how naive I was.....) I don't recall everything that clearly, but there were definitely times that words and actions were in two different zip codes......... Regarding my 'hot stove' analogy, I think I may have done a drastic pendulum swing from being naively trusting, to being intensely cautious. Not to the point of seeing 'the boogeyman' at every turn, but I do subject people to much closer scrutiny than I used to.
HappyAgain Posted January 16, 2010 Posted January 16, 2010 My xH was like this. I truly believe he wanted to be that person he portrayed and I desperately wanted him to be that person but he wasn't and never will be. He play acted at being this smart guy who just couldn't get a break in life and I believed it for the longest time. I finally realized that the "world" wasn't to blame for his problems but that he was to blame for them. I just wanted to believe in him so badly. I finally admitted to myself that he didn't have the intelligence I was looking for, that his "persona" was all a lie, and that he just didn't make me happy. The guy I'm with today was honest with me from the start. We started out as friends and he shared his issues with me and I shared my issues with him so we skipped the period where we try to be something we're not to impress the other person. He's a ridiculously intelligent man and we can talk for hours and hours about important stuff and not just the latest video games that came out. I could sit in his workshop and listen to him explain what he's doing all night and not be bored. I have to admit that my ex and I were just not compatible. I discovered that besides all the regulars like sense of humor and looks that I really appreciate intelligence in a man - my ex didn't have much in that department. But he kept up the charade for years. Today he does nothing more than replace mice and monitors for other people when they break at work while I design systems for airports. Why it took me - and I accept the blame - so long to admit to myself that this man was never going to meet my needs stems from my own issues in life. Fortunately for me, I have found a man that meets all my needs and I am happy with where I am in my new life.
sadintexas Posted January 16, 2010 Posted January 16, 2010 sadintexas2601239- Good point!! It's so hard to notice red flags though, when you are caught up in the honeymoon stage of a relationship. One thing I've learned through time is that isn't hard to see the red flags as much as it is we tend to excuse them or ignore them for a myriad of reasons. Mostly because we want to believe in them and want to be with them. Let me ask you, how many times (in reflection) have you said "If I'd just paid more attention when he did or said "x" ?
threebyfate Posted January 16, 2010 Posted January 16, 2010 Oh, absolutely, I was young and dumb. (emotionally dumb, anyways). I don't think I'd even heard the term "red flag" in regard to relationships back then. (this was mid-80's, and the self-help movement was still very young) I had no clue as to what a healthy relationship should look like, coming from a broken home. So I put up with a lot of crap in my early dating years, that would never fly with me right now. Never anything physical, which I would've nipped in the bud instantly, but the far more insidious emotional abuse. The kind that creeps in slowly, subtly. Looking back, over twenty years later, I shake my head at how naive I was.....) I don't recall everything that clearly, but there were definitely times that words and actions were in two different zip codes......... Regarding my 'hot stove' analogy, I think I may have done a drastic pendulum swing from being naively trusting, to being intensely cautious. Not to the point of seeing 'the boogeyman' at every turn, but I do subject people to much closer scrutiny than I used to.As a thought, now that you're no longer young and naive, why not put more credibility on you're own judgements and ability to scrutinize? When we don't trust others, it's because we don't trust our own judgements.
Author EricaH329 Posted January 16, 2010 Author Posted January 16, 2010 Too often, we casually brush off problems as being too trivial to address. And most often, as separate incidents, they are too trivial. But when you pay attention, these incidents can add up to destructive patterns of behaviour, whether it's the underlying issue of a lack of respect or dysfunctional coping tools. I wish I had realized this long ago. I couldn't agree more! The little things that we tend to overlook lead to the biggest problems. He play acted at being this smart guy who just couldn't get a break in life and I believed it for the longest time. I finally realized that the "world" wasn't to blame for his problems but that he was to blame for them. I just wanted to believe in him so badly. I am all too familiar with this situation. Once you put your all into wanting to believe someone, it becomes that much more harder to accept that we were wrong. That we need to let go. I am so glad you've found a person that you are compatible with. I'm very happy for you! One thing I've learned through time is that isn't hard to see the red flags as much as it is we tend to excuse them or ignore them for a myriad of reasons. Mostly because we want to believe in them and want to be with them. Let me ask you, how many times (in reflection) have you said "If I'd just paid more attention when he did or said "x" ? Yessssss!!!! I'm so glad I started this thread, it's really opening my eyes. Unfortunatly, i've fallen victim to the 'excusing' and 'ignoring' of red flags. Probably more times than i'd like to admit. Hindsight is 20/20 though. I think it takes a really strong person to be able to set your emotions aside and pinpoint the red flags you could possibly be overlooking. I can only strive to be that strong one day. I'm entirely too much of an emotional person to not be swept away by my feelings. I am trying my hardest to work on that, though.
SincereOnlineGuy Posted January 17, 2010 Posted January 17, 2010 For example: You hear about people who put up this 'front' in the beginning of a relationship so that the other person won't see their flaws. They try to act like someone they aren't, or at least aren't all the time. However, as time passes, this 'front' of theirs begins to tumble down. And we begin to see them for who they are. This is an extremely important part of a relationship. This, among other things, will let you know if you're going to last. I've learned that if you keep saying to yourself, 'Well they've changed, I know they can go back to who they were before...', or 'This is just a phase they are going through...' you will be sorely disappointed. I digress. My main question is, in your experience, how long does this 'front' tend to last? And, if they are to be called out on it (like most do) and they promise to become the person they used to be again, how long does that last? Do you really think that a person can become someone they aren't (if they truely love another) forever? Or is there really no hope for some people? No matter how much they love eachother? I'm in a weird mood. Too many thoughts. I need to get out. LOL - I didn't have to quote you at all, but I did, just because it was you What strikes me after reading your words is that in the online world, we are all resigned to expecting just that sort of "front" to represent another, real person, before we are willingly drawn to the idea of living in their periphery long enough for that front to reduce itself. A real puzzler is why it sounds so wrong for the person of whom you're enamored, in real life, to be holding that "front" between you and him, while those in the internet world are always expected to be surrounded by the same front. In one case, you feel you have the right to see every last element in great detail, and in the other case you approach with complete understanding that there is a lot of smoke and mirrors to be worked around before each new detail is revealed. That is in part why online social interactions have hit society so hard, just by playing tricks on human minds and surprising those minds from the blind side. That in addition to women being able to be more confident, comfortable, and safe online. Just things to ponder in tandem with your words and thoughts.
Payden Posted January 17, 2010 Posted January 17, 2010 on a serious note, I really admire the fact that you recognize that you have certain aspects about yourself that you'd like to work on before bringing someone else into your life. Not very many people do that. I actully, honestly believe that most if not all of these "things" would go away if a woman ever took my heart and we became an item. In other words..I will be someone totally different than I am now...in a good way of course. I dunno...love is the hardest freakin thing anyone can do in life...it truly is.
Author EricaH329 Posted January 17, 2010 Author Posted January 17, 2010 LOL - I didn't have to quote you at all, but I did, just because it was you What strikes me after reading your words is that in the online world, we are all resigned to expecting just that sort of "front" to represent another, real person, before we are willingly drawn to the idea of living in their periphery long enough for that front to reduce itself. A real puzzler is why it sounds so wrong for the person of whom you're enamored, in real life, to be holding that "front" between you and him, while those in the internet world are always expected to be surrounded by the same front. In one case, you feel you have the right to see every last element in great detail, and in the other case you approach with complete understanding that there is a lot of smoke and mirrors to be worked around before each new detail is revealed. That is in part why online social interactions have hit society so hard, just by playing tricks on human minds and surprising those minds from the blind side. That in addition to women being able to be more confident, comfortable, and safe online. Just things to ponder in tandem with your words and thoughts. I find it much, much more difficult to handle thinking that someone is a certain way for so long. Only to find out that they really aren't that person at all! As opposed to being treated with honesty in the beginning. It's so easy to fall for someones good traits. Everyone has them. But it's a much more realistic relationship when you not only fall for their good traits, but are able to stand their bad traits. Why lie about that in the beginning? You are only wasting everyones time that is involved (not speaking about you, of course, just in general). I also know that it's unrealistic to figure everyone out within the first few months of a relationship. That goes without saying. But the more serious qualities about a person, for example if they lack respect for everyone around them, should be brought out into the open to begin with. I don't even know if i'm making any sense . My thoughts are all over the place on this subject. I actully, honestly believe that most if not all of these "things" would go away if a woman ever took my heart and we became an item. In other words..I will be someone totally different than I am now...in a good way of course. I dunno...love is the hardest freakin thing anyone can do in life...it truly is. I totally know what you mean. When you are in love with a person, that person tends to bring out the best in you. However, those negatives traits that you have will remain dormant unless thoroughly worked through, and will probably arise at some point in time, in some fashion. In reference to what you said about how love is the hardest thing ever, I just watched the movie Feast Of Love (great freakin' movie!) and in the beginning, Morgan Freeman speaks of Greek Gods. This is the quote: "There is a story about the Greek Gods. They were bored, so they invented human beings, but they were still bored, so they invented love. Then they weren't bored any longer, so they decided to try love for themselves. And finally they invented laughter, so they could stand it." Just thought that was appropriate.
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