dazzle22 Posted January 18, 2010 Posted January 18, 2010 It is hard to hurt someone who 'doesn't care'. What does he really CARE about? Money? Getting ahead?....
mem11363 Posted January 19, 2010 Posted January 19, 2010 The first vow in any marriage - the first and most important vow is to "love". In a marriage - that includes sexual love. UNLESS you have a premarital agreement about sex - as wife you get right of first refusal. Anything less then that is a type of infidelity where he is pouring is limited physical energy/stamina into OTHER women / photos/movies of other women. The burden of proper behavior is ENTIRELY on him. Now it is fair if there are basic/common things that are causing a sexual disconnect - for him to address them with you. But it is 100 percent HIS responsibility to bring these up in a nice way and ask for your cooperation. He does NOT get to ignore you, hurt you, watch lots of porn and then AFTER a lot of pain say "oh yeah - by the way I would rather you use Irish spring soap instead of Dove soap. That is just not how the rules work. So good luck with therapy - but the burden was on him from the start to address this constructively. He is very very good at deleting the history but I have monitoring software on there so I know what websites he went to and it will say what the name of the vid he looked at. He doesn't look at men. He's not gay. He looks mostly at MILF and creampie
dazzle22 Posted January 19, 2010 Posted January 19, 2010 Hey Mem11363. I have been writing on a thread by a man named "Sotagoon", called "hit by the train". I suggested he needed to be more alpha in his relationship and I told him he needed to read what you had to say on this issue. He wanted me to link to your thread but I don't know how to do it.
Lovelybird Posted January 19, 2010 Posted January 19, 2010 Maybe stop having sex with him altogether, then he will realize he has to do something change otherwise he has to have relationship with his porn instead of a real person Bottom line, if he doesn't taste pain of his action, he won't want to change due to laziness of human condition
dazzle22 Posted January 19, 2010 Posted January 19, 2010 I have to say this one is a real puzzler. I think it is because this is a true out of control addiction here, where the addict really doesn't care anymore about the family he is hurting, he's so caught up in it. IMHO.
carhill Posted January 19, 2010 Posted January 19, 2010 OP, is your husband the same man as discussed in this thread? If yes, have you seen any relevant change in action in the intervening months? Also, if yes, did you and he have any PMC? I ask because it sounds like some of the issues outlined prior have continued on into your marriage. The points I raised back then about emotional set points and intimacy styles and compatibility may have become a factor. IMO, there's no easy solution here. I can tell you that I behaved in a similar manner to your H after emotionally disconnecting with my stbx. I'm not saying that's your issue, but for this dynamic to be such an issue for newlyweds is alarming to me. Hope it works out.
Author SarahRose Posted January 19, 2010 Author Posted January 19, 2010 OP, is your husband the same man as discussed in this thread? If yes, have you seen any relevant change in action in the intervening months? Also, if yes, did you and he have any PMC? I ask because it sounds like some of the issues outlined prior have continued on into your marriage. The points I raised back then about emotional set points and intimacy styles and compatibility may have become a factor. IMO, there's no easy solution here. I can tell you that I behaved in a similar manner to your H after emotionally disconnecting with my stbx. I'm not saying that's your issue, but for this dynamic to be such an issue for newlyweds is alarming to me. Hope it works out. Yes this is the same guy and at the time I had no clue at all about the porn addiction. I just thought he had a low sex drive and was more interested if I made it a little bit more challenging to get. I think it was easier to accept him having a low sex drive as opposed to find out his drive is fine but he is just more interested in jo to porn than being with me. So why did you act like you did towards your wife?
carhill Posted January 19, 2010 Posted January 19, 2010 So why did you act like you did towards your wife? I was so emotionally drained from other issues (caring for my mother) that I couldn't stomach the abandonment any longer and simply began to treat like she didn't really matter to me. Polite disinterest. Not cruel, but certainly not with the same affection which I had proffered prior. Like I said, a different dynamic than your own, but I see some similarities in the actions. Towards the end, sex felt 'wrong' to me because, for myself, sex is part and parcel of intimacy, of which there was none. Hence, the sex was empty, like masturbating, so why go to the trouble? That's about as accurate as I can be. MC helped me make a lot more sense of this stuff, which is why I asked if you and he had PMC. The two biggest results of MC were, one, clarity, and two, acceptance. With that perspective a reasonable and healthy decision could be reached, in our case, a divorce. Each case is different.
HokeyReligions Posted January 21, 2010 Posted January 21, 2010 So many ideas and suggestions! But, not even the best doctor can diagnose the true issues on-line. It really sounds like you need to determine if you want to save the marriage; and if you do - approach him honestly and ask him to think about it too and get back to you in a couple of days. If you both want to save the marriage then get yourselves into counseling. If you don't then let him know that and move forward on your own. One thing that I learned in one of our many counseling sessions is that sometimes the problem is as simple as "he knows he can have it and without the pursuit its no fun". Some men (and women) have a profound emotional and physical reaction after a commitment like marriage seemingly removes the question of will s/he? or won't s/he? Sadly, sometimes the simplest things are the most difficult to overcome. I'm too old now, but there have been times I wished I had been stronger in myself earlier in my marriage. I was raised that the man is the head of the house and he sets the dynamic of the marriage. It's the wife's duty to find the strength to accept the things she might not like or agree with. I'm not saying physical abuse/neglect or obvious emotional abuse - I wouldn't stand for those and if there hadn't been enough other good things about the marriage I would not have stayed. Still, I didn't recognize what I went thru as a form of abuse and neglect until years later. By then complacency and the siren song of familiar places and familiar faces kept me here. Intellectually I know that's beyond ridiculous, but the lesson was so ingrained that I didn't realize I was following it until I woke up in my 50's one day and realized that I hadn't had sex since my 30's; and then maybe only once or twice. I mean, my doctor was shocked when I went thru menopause at 32 to 34 until I told him that I only had sex a handful of times over the previous 10 years. Basically he said what isn't used is done away with. I admire you for being strong but I'm sorry that strength of will is coming at such a price and in such a young marriage. I do hope that you can both work it out and be satisfied with whatever outcome you reach. If you go to counseling, take some of the posts here with you - it might help you develop the communication between you and your counselor and lead you to some interesting insights about yourself.
Author SarahRose Posted January 21, 2010 Author Posted January 21, 2010 Thanks for the replies. I made an appt for marriage counseling. I was really upset at him this morning as he reformatted his pc n I thought he pw protected it. He didn't but I was just sobbing. I talked to him about it but he seemed to be more irritated I accused him of something he didn't do. He is the one who broke my trust. I said something about the secret porn collection n he sat there n lied to my face that he didn't have one. I asked him how he would feel if I was cyber online w some stranger n he said that was cheating. I said it's the same thing. He said he wouldn't mind me pretending to have sex with ppl in videos tho. Somehow I don't believe him. Especially if I was sneaking around doing it instead of bring with him.
IllMan Posted January 21, 2010 Posted January 21, 2010 SR - I hope things work out for you and your marriage. I also write this with the assumption you want things to work. I have to say we are both on the same road, traveling in opposite directions, and haven gotten there by different routes. By that I mean I am a guy that settles for internet porn over laying i bed with his wife. I do so because of receiving the cold shoulder treatment for so long ... I joined up to try to give you the guys perspective. Why does he deny, even though you have the evidence? Collecting more isn't going to force him to admit it. As guys we live by the rule deny deny deny. And deny again. Mentally it makes it easier to deal with. Why does he tell you he's no interested in pron, but watches it like crazy? It's because he's always been into pron, but knows/feels that there is no way you would ever approve, and that means in the closet it goes. Sad. I know. I do the same thing. Consoling will help you reconnect on some levels, but getting back to the issue of him and you versus him and his hand will be more of a challenge. As for myself I agree with a previous poster that I'm now 'addicted' to my hand. How did this happen? Well, for myself it was years of rejection. Only recently has my spouse expressed interest in engaging in physical activity. For your husband ... It may be that he has what I term classic guy syndrome. He just wants to see different people have sex. I'm willing to be on your porn tracker he doesn't just watch 1 or 2 movies. It's alot. And no two show up in the same week. This also is common amoung guys. It's why we'll share raunchy videos and pcitres with each other when we (guys) have them. What can you do? My wife tells me she wants to be together, but she never touches me. She doesn't express any physical interest. Are you? do you straddle him, chest in face and ask him if he wants some whip cream? Chances are, if your willing to push the envelope he'll respond. Today is is not what it was ten years ago, or even five years ago as far as porn goes. guys have access to thousands of hours of porn thats new. A week. And it's free. What impact does that have on a marriage? Not good if both can't figure out how to make it work in the bedroom. I learned long ago that my wife was very vanilla, timid, and not adventurous in the bedroom. It didn't matter because I was in love. when she cut it off 10 months before our wedding until months after getting married, then again, for two years, after having our daughter frustration has chipped away at that love. Porn, the hand, and stoicism has become the normal. I hope your husband can realize that this isn't the normal. That you are there for him, and yourself.
Author SarahRose Posted January 21, 2010 Author Posted January 21, 2010 Illman thanks for making your first post on my thread. It seems u n your wife weren't compatible from the beginning in the bedroom. In my case I never was against porn. I didn't care if he looked. Im no pride n I used to be a stripper years ago. I find my husband a bit vanilla in the bedroom. He had no reason to hide porn from me but he did. I think if he just relaxed n enjoyed being spontaneous it would help him. When I try to kiss him he seems so tense n uptight. Like he is tryingreally hard not to be turned on. After the talk the other day it seems he is trying more. We had sex 2 days in a row n itwas great!
Author SarahRose Posted January 21, 2010 Author Posted January 21, 2010 Oh in the talk I just stated myview on it n that it would be the last talk a bout the porn that next time I'll just file for a divorce. I said if he spent half the time he spends on trying to delete thedvidence n hide it inourmarriage. Our marriage would be fantastic
dazzle22 Posted January 22, 2010 Posted January 22, 2010 Oh in the talk I just stated myview on it n that it would be the last talk a bout the porn that next time I'll just file for a divorce. I said if he spent half the time he spends on trying to delete thedvidence n hide it inourmarriage. Our marriage would be fantastic You go girl! Here you are, every husband's dream (a willing wife) and he chooses his hand! His behavior when you want to get close makes me think he has a fear of intimacy?? Or did he grow up in a family that had kind of a mother/whore split about the women you love and the women you boink? Illman, I found your post frank and interesting. Would like to dialogue sometime about this whole deny, deny, deny thing...Don't get it!! Especially when the guy is already caught redhanded. Yet this has been my experience too with guys. Don't you at some point feel guilty about the SHAMELESS lying?
IllMan Posted January 22, 2010 Posted January 22, 2010 SR -- Fantastic, I hope it keeps getting better and better! Dazzle22 -- Anytime. I hope to help in trying to understand why guys do what they do. As for denying ... take it as a good sign. It's defense #1. And defense #2 & #3. It's a good sign because it means he's in panic mode. Good because he isn't tossing it in your face. Good because he doesn't/hasn't thought about bolting. I guess deep down we deny it because we know we're not supposed to be doing it. You know it. I (we) know it. Society still labels it as bad in the family. Well, the hiding it part at least. And yes, we feel guilty as heck.
dazzle22 Posted January 22, 2010 Posted January 22, 2010 SR -- Fantastic, I hope it keeps getting better and better! Dazzle22 -- Anytime. I hope to help in trying to understand why guys do what they do. As for denying ... take it as a good sign. It's defense #1. And defense #2 & #3. It's a good sign because it means he's in panic mode. Good because he isn't tossing it in your face. Good because he doesn't/hasn't thought about bolting. I guess deep down we deny it because we know we're not supposed to be doing it. You know it. I (we) know it. Society still labels it as bad in the family. Well, the hiding it part at least. And yes, we feel guilty as heck. Oh, I really want to pick your brain on some stuff. :bunny:You are so honest and forthright about the "other camp"...Should we start another thread? Don't want to hijack this one.
Author SarahRose Posted January 22, 2010 Author Posted January 22, 2010 yeah a thread would be good on this. maybe a catchy title like the truth on lying or something. I have found men pretty much do what they want to do and make excuse, lie, and avoid things they don't want to do.
IllMan Posted January 25, 2010 Posted January 25, 2010 I don't know about 'The truth on Lying...' but I'll put one up. 'The Other Camp (Yes, we are that bad...)'
Author SarahRose Posted January 26, 2010 Author Posted January 26, 2010 Illman, I'm wondering. Do you think men don't expect their women to do the same things they do? For example, a guy who like cam girls and cyber and is sneaking around hiding it from his wife. Does he ever think his wife would do something like that to him? He probably doesn't even give it a thought. An update Still waiting for an appointment for a counselor. There is a 2-3 week wait for evening appointments. We got into it again as we installed new operating systems on our machine and he spent hours creating a virtual machine in the old OS. Why would he do that? I think he is trying to hide the porn collection which he again swore he deleted. He said he was just seeing if he could do it. Yeah right then why install virus software on it too. I haven't figured out how to see the hidden files this time for Windows 7 but I can tell that only say 15 folders are showing and the properties say there are 30 something folders and many many files. I would think it would have to be reasonably simple to unhide because he would have to add new porn to it after viewing. Anyway this morning while he was asleep I turned on my web cam and took a bunch of sexy photos in different outfits and posted them up on a "nude photo appreciation" forum. Once I get about 100 different photos up there with a bunch of comments from guys, I plan to leave the page up on my machine "accidentally" while I go to the store or something. Let's see how he likes that.
IllMan Posted January 26, 2010 Posted January 26, 2010 SR- WoW. I just had an OH S* moment and chuckled. I don't think most guys, say 90%, would think their wife would do what your doing, or would be interested in looking up porn for themselves. I believe the statistics is women make up almost 50% or purchased DVD porn, and lets not go down the route about who sex stores cater to. Having said that I think most guys would say they don't have a problem with their spouse looking at porn, and some might find it hot what your doing. But the reality is men get jealous - and I think your walking a fine line between pushing him away and teaching him a lesson. I expect his reaction to be very hostile, akin to a dog that just got stabbed. You have a couple weeks. Do you think you can hold off on pushing the envelope until after a session or two? Things might change, and you can't take memories away... He could be trying to figure out how to hold onto his stash - he probably considers it a treasure of sorts. Favorites and the like. To be rid of it, he has to be willing to let it go. What can you do? Forget trying to find it. Don't worry about the virtual machine. If he is going to look at porn, he's going to find it. Assume he is, and don't believe he's not. What you can do is make it harder for him to get. All major router companies now make porn restricted routers. Look it up (Google 'opendns.com' for more techie solutions, or Google 'parental control router' for pay plug and pay solutions). Slow down and consider what could happen with your plan. Can you accept ALL the possible outcomes?
Author SarahRose Posted January 26, 2010 Author Posted January 26, 2010 Illman, I kind of thought a lot of men think that way. Sort of a double standard. Boys will be boys so put up with their humiliating crap but lord have mercy on a gal who does the same thing. As far as pushing him away, why should I care at this point? He clearly has no qualms about pushing me away. I can't get those images out of my head but somehow I am supposed to be the better person and look the other way. I guess he can get over my new found love of exhibitionism the same as I can "get over" his porn use. I can easily reconfigure the router and so I will do it. If he says anything about it, which he won't as why would he when he isn't supposed to be looking at porn anyway. I should have done that a long time ago.
Author SarahRose Posted February 5, 2010 Author Posted February 5, 2010 Here is an update. I haven't brought it up since n nothing has gotten better. We've had sex 3 times this year. This morning he wanted a quickie which I declined. Why should he get his fun n I get nothing n ignored for another 2 weeks until he wants me again? I really don't think he understands my position on this. He thinks I'm making a big deal over nothing. I guess it is nothing to him as he is getting his needs met.
cuppa Posted February 5, 2010 Posted February 5, 2010 Here is an update. I haven't brought it up since n nothing has gotten better. We've had sex 3 times this year. This morning he wanted a quickie which I declined. Why should he get his fun n I get nothing n ignored for another 2 weeks until he wants me again? I really don't think he understands my position on this. He thinks I'm making a big deal over nothing. I guess it is nothing to him as he is getting his needs met. See...my husband was clueless that I was that miserable over the sex things that he also said that I made a big deal out of nothing. I did the same thing you did last week too (declined him for sex though he probably secretly relieved ). I had 4 times last year(excluding the month of december which I had tiny meltdowns and he used a few make up sex to appease me) and he also thought this is no big deal. He only realized how big this was for me until I said counseling or move out. I don't understand how men think sometimes, they seem to be wired differently like some sensitivity chip missing or something.
You Go Girl Posted February 6, 2010 Posted February 6, 2010 (edited) I just stumbled upon this thread--and thought rut roh, here I go--because I know I can't avoid this subject as it has affected me personally to the point of destroying my marriage. Mine also has an alcohol problem. We were married 3 months (long distance relationship) when I discovered that things just weren't right. Now I was the most willing partner I could imagine. If he approached me when the apartment was burning below us--I would have said ok, but perhaps we should make it a quicky? He had no reason for porn. Except...it was an old habit of his. Now I married him for one reason and one reason only--that our intimacy was complete and open. I had no other reason to marry him whatsoever, and would not have married him if I thought our intimacy was only sometimes--as in sometimes when it's convenient and other times no as he liked a private sex life with porn women, or any other time he felt convenient to lie instead of the truth, such as was he drinking before work that day. I really like that idea of first refusal. I wasn't given that choice either. When we went two weeks w/o sex and he was positioning his monitor so that I couldn't see what he was doing, I became suspicious. He had also looked through every file of mine soon after marrying me. I had never spied on him. To make a long story short, it's 5 years later, I've been angry for 5 years, and nothing has been resolved. Please don't let yourself go 5 years with this unhappiness and anger. It has aged me 10 years. Rocked me to the core, as I had never loved this passionately before. What I have learned is that there are a lot of men out there that take their women for granted. I believe 80% of married men use porn to imagine variety in partners. What this statistic says is that men know they can get away with it and still find a woman. What it also says is that women don't realize how much they are taken for granted, and continue to be naive. Cultural conditioning trains men to view women as an object without any earning of that right to enjoy a woman's sexuality. Hence the laziness. The point to drive him to your husband is this-- lying and deceptive behavior have no place in a loving relationship. Debates about porn in your marriage can only take place if he is willing to discuss honestly--and getting him there is like pulling wisdom teeth. Those men that know they will lose the debate will sacrifice the marriage. Is it addiction? Or is it simply--this is who I am, this is what I like to do, and you aren't worth changing for. Trying to keep tabs on a man's porn collection is impossible. It will turn up on thumb drives, ipods, cell phones, burned dvd's, partitioned hard drives, etc. I know! I'm married to a security IT professional--and chasing his habit was ridiculous...except that they are always sloppy. Give up trying to keep tabs on him, just as one would give up trying to keep track of somebody else's alcohol intake. It's a waste of your time, and will only frustrate you. Bottom line is that he still isn't mature enough to understand what intimacy is. I wish you the best in counseling. Mine has decided not to pursue counseling, even after me on the couch for six months--so it's over. Edited February 6, 2010 by You Go Girl
mem11363 Posted February 7, 2010 Posted February 7, 2010 Almost all sexual refusers follow the same behavior patterns: - They pretend to agree it is a problem but then change nothing - They deny it is a problem at all - or deny that they understood how upset you were about it - When pushed hard to admit it is a problem - they often attack their spouse for: not doing enough housework, pressuring them too much, saying something mean to them at some point in the last five years, etc. The men who are refusing sex in this thread know they are totally in the wrong. They are simply using tactics. I think it is great the women are forcing the issue. I just stumbled upon this thread--and thought rut roh, here I go--because I know I can't avoid this subject as it has affected me personally to the point of destroying my marriage. Mine also has an alcohol problem. We were married 3 months (long distance relationship) when I discovered that things just weren't right. Now I was the most willing partner I could imagine. If he approached me when the apartment was burning below us--I would have said ok, but perhaps we should make it a quicky? He had no reason for porn. Except...it was an old habit of his. Now I married him for one reason and one reason only--that our intimacy was complete and open. I had no other reason to marry him whatsoever, and would not have married him if I thought our intimacy was only sometimes--as in sometimes when it's convenient and other times no as he liked a private sex life with porn women, or any other time he felt convenient to lie instead of the truth, such as was he drinking before work that day. I really like that idea of first refusal. I wasn't given that choice either. When we went two weeks w/o sex and he was positioning his monitor so that I couldn't see what he was doing, I became suspicious. He had also looked through every file of mine soon after marrying me. I had never spied on him. To make a long story short, it's 5 years later, I've been angry for 5 years, and nothing has been resolved. Please don't let yourself go 5 years with this unhappiness and anger. It has aged me 10 years. Rocked me to the core, as I had never loved this passionately before. What I have learned is that there are a lot of men out there that take their women for granted. I believe 80% of married men use porn to imagine variety in partners. What this statistic says is that men know they can get away with it and still find a woman. What it also says is that women don't realize how much they are taken for granted, and continue to be naive. Cultural conditioning trains men to view women as an object without any earning of that right to enjoy a woman's sexuality. Hence the laziness. The point to drive him to your husband is this-- lying and deceptive behavior have no place in a loving relationship. Debates about porn in your marriage can only take place if he is willing to discuss honestly--and getting him there is like pulling wisdom teeth. Those men that know they will lose the debate will sacrifice the marriage. Is it addiction? Or is it simply--this is who I am, this is what I like to do, and you aren't worth changing for. Trying to keep tabs on a man's porn collection is impossible. It will turn up on thumb drives, ipods, cell phones, burned dvd's, partitioned hard drives, etc. I know! I'm married to a security IT professional--and chasing his habit was ridiculous...except that they are always sloppy. Give up trying to keep tabs on him, just as one would give up trying to keep track of somebody else's alcohol intake. It's a waste of your time, and will only frustrate you. Bottom line is that he still isn't mature enough to understand what intimacy is. I wish you the best in counseling. Mine has decided not to pursue counseling, even after me on the couch for six months--so it's over.
Recommended Posts