Split-Self Affair (Discussion)

[jennie-jennie]

I totally agree with this and if you look at any posts I have made on the subject of dealing with the recovery of from an affair, I do talk of having to deal with any problems/issues leading up to the affair. After all, without that there is no chance of recovery.

 

JJ - thanks for letting me know therapists are educated people but I kind of knew that already . I also don't think a good therapist would decide how long therapy would be just based on the recommendations in a book. The overriding factor would be the progress of the "patient".

 

Of course. Emily Brown's model is just one way of looking at affairs. Her model fits me very well. To each their own. That is what I am asking for here, openmindedness. Just because it does not fit you, does not mean that it can not help somebody else.

Edited January 17, 2010 by jennie-jennie

[HarmonyHope]

 

JJ - thanks for letting me know therapists are educated people but I kind of knew that already . I also don't think a good therapist would decide how long therapy would be just based on the recommendations in a book. The overriding factor would be the progress of the "patient".

 

Obviously. The article was written for therapists, and the mention of the 2 years is so that they understand that this is a LONG process for Split Selves. It can be really frustrating for therapists when people don't make progress, or do so excruciatingly slowly. It's not to say that will be the case for any individual client, but it is to say that they can expect it's going to be long-term therapy. You're twisting it into a hard and fast rule simply to dismiss the whole thing.

[anne1707]

You're twisting it into a hard and fast rule simply to dismiss the whole thing.

 

 

Actually it's the complete opposite I am doing.

 

I am saying that to categorise may result in the causes of an affair being seen as XYZ when it could in fact be XYZPWRK. As I said in a post yesterday, I looked at a website which attempted to help you see which of these types your affair correspeonded to and mine did not clearly fit in with any one of them. To categorise risks creating limits to what you look at in recovery because categories are based on rules.

 

Also what I have a problem with is that some here seem to be implying that the only way to recover is to categorise - so they are the ones creating a hard and fast rule here. Whereas I am saying that you do not need to do this to ensure recovery. Recovery is possible without this.

[anne1707]

Of course. Emily Brown's model is just one way of looking at affairs. Her model fits me very well. To each their own. That is what I am asking for here, openmindedness. Just because it does not fit you, does not mean that it can not help somebody else.

 

I have no problem with this. All I have been saying all along is that categorisation is not essential - therefore what works for some, may not work for others.

[TaraMaiden]

That is underestimating people in my opinion. We humans have always liked to have models to better understand the world around us. Nothing wrong with that. It doesn't mean that we can't look outside the box.

Interesting...

Just thinking out loud here....

Just as all these euphemistic phrases have come to us from America (thinking outside the box, pushing the envelope, being on the same page, running it up the flagpole....) I'm thinking that to have a Counsellor/analyst/shrink/Psychologist/Therapist is predominantly far more common and natural to Americans than it is to the British. Americans have therapists at the drop of a hat. I would almost surmise that it's far more common for people in the USA to rely on a professional of this kind than it is for the British. Although, I know, things are veering towards emulating Americans in many ways here.....

 

Isn't this exactly why we like to read on LS? Seeing the patterns of infidelity and affairs helps us understand what is happening in our own lives.

I cannot for one moment either believe or accept that these traits manifest only when an affair surfaces. Surely, if a person is prone to falling into one of these criteria, these behaviour patterns have emerged and been evident before, in other situations where infidelity hasn't been an issue? I fail to see how Dysfunctional issues that people have been working on, haven't become clear before this....Wouldn't that in itself be a bit of a red flag?

I mean, the Conflict Avoidance, Intimacy avoidance.... aren't these already obviously present? These don't suddenly appear when a spouse gets their leg over elsewhere....

 

 

You know of course that IC and MC therapists are educated people who have studied these kind of things. I have two books here at home by Emily Brown. One is for us ordinary people, one is used as a resource for therapists and counselors. The therapists need more than honesty to be able to help people, they need knowledge about what is going on.

Are you saying that MC and IC Therapists and counsellors are NOT 'ordinary people'? Did you know that the divorce rate amongst trained MC counsellors is about the same, or slightly greater than it is for "ordinary people?" and that 70% of people who go to Marriage Counselling still get divorced?

And it's for precisely these reasons, HarmonyHope, that I really don't give a fig what qualifications, diplomas, Doctorates, certificates or accreditations Ms Brown has got.

I am an 'ordinary person' and I have as much right to disagree with her theory, as anyone else has of agreeing with it.

It's rather like those 'wonderful' books, "The Secret" and "The Law of Attraction". Dress something up enough to make it sound credible, influence impressionable people, who really, in many cases are grasping at straws to find something - anything - to explain something unfathomable, and you have yourself a wonderful little recipe for making money.

 

 

You might have noticed above that the WS of the Split Self affair is recommended IC for at least two years. If this categorization of affairs can help some WS realize that they need IC and perhaps MC, is that not great?

2 years - ?? You're kidding, right?

The only person who should be considering Counselling for 2 years and on, is a person with a recognised, medical mental condition.

Otherwise, I would consider a Therapist/counsellor who has a client on their books for two years to be seriously taking advantage and lining their pockets. I would seriously question their qualifications and ability to do the job. A Therapist really doesn't want someone "on their couch" for 2 years... otherwise, wouldn't you say that there's the risk of a Counsellor-Dependency issue arising....? (More therapy.....!)

[White Flower]

:lmao:

 

I am not at all bothered. It seems to me that some here are convinced that you need to categorise before you can recover from an affair but that is complete nonsense.

 

To recover from an affair (whether BS, WS or OW/OM) just requires complete honesty. Putting a name on the affair "type" actually risks losing clarity in my opinion because you risk only looking at issues that fit in with that type.

 

I'm actually more concerned about your 'recovered marriage' now. Good luck with that because I think all you both did was sweep things under the rug.

[White Flower]

Interesting...

Just thinking out loud here....

Just as all these euphemistic phrases have come to us from America (thinking outside the box, pushing the envelope, being on the same page, running it up the flagpole....) I'm thinking that to have a Counsellor/analyst/shrink/Psychologist/Therapist is predominantly far more common and natural to Americans than it is to the British. Americans have therapists at the drop of a hat. I would almost surmise that it's far more common for people in the USA to rely on a professional of this kind than it is for the British. Although, I know, things are veering towards emulating Americans in many ways here.....

 

 

I cannot for one moment either believe or accept that these traits manifest only when an affair surfaces. Surely, if a person is prone to falling into one of these criteria, these behaviour patterns have emerged and been evident before, in other situations where infidelity hasn't been an issue? I fail to see how Dysfunctional issues that people have been working on, haven't become clear before this....Wouldn't that in itself be a bit of a red flag?

I mean, the Conflict Avoidance, Intimacy avoidance.... aren't these already obviously present? These don't suddenly appear when a spouse gets their leg over elsewhere....

 

 

 

Are you saying that MC and IC Therapists and counsellors are NOT 'ordinary people'? Did you know that the divorce rate amongst trained MC counsellors is about the same, or slightly greater than it is for "ordinary people?" and that 70% of people who go to Marriage Counselling still get divorced?

And it's for precisely these reasons, HarmonyHope, that I really don't give a fig what qualifications, diplomas, Doctorates, certificates or accreditations Ms Brown has got.

I am an 'ordinary person' and I have as much right to disagree with her theory, as anyone else has of agreeing with it.

It's rather like those 'wonderful' books, "The Secret" and "The Law of Attraction". Dress something up enough to make it sound credible, influence impressionable people, who really, in many cases are grasping at straws to find something - anything - to explain something unfathomable, and you have yourself a wonderful little recipe for making money.

 

 

 

2 years - ?? You're kidding, right?

The only person who should be considering Counselling for 2 years and on, is a person with a recognised, medical mental condition.

Otherwise, I would consider a Therapist/counsellor who has a client on their books for two years to be seriously taking advantage and lining their pockets. I would seriously question their qualifications and ability to do the job. A Therapist really doesn't want someone "on their couch" for 2 years... otherwise, wouldn't you say that there's the risk of a Counsellor-Dependency issue arising....? (More therapy.....!)

They don't 'rely' or need it more than anyone else; they're just more open to it. Not saying that we're all puritans but we do have a lot of heart and if being puritanical leads us to being analytical then and only then can we promote positive change.

[anne1707]

I'm actually more concerned about your 'recovered marriage' now. Good luck with that because I think all you both did was sweep things under the rug.

 

 

Wow! Is there actually a need to get personal just because I disagree with you?

[White Flower]

Wow! Is there actually a need to get personal just because I disagree with you?

 

Not at all but I really am concerned as to what steps you used to get beyond it all. I really hope there was just more to it than confessions and I love you's because I really fear it will happen again otherwise.

[wuggle]

I'm actually more concerned about your 'recovered marriage' now. Good luck with that because I think all you both did was sweep things under the rug.

 

 

How nasty, and how wrong :lmao:

[anne1707]

Not at all but I really am concerned as to what steps you used to get beyond it all. I really hope there was just more to it than confessions and I love you's because I really fear it will happen again otherwise.

 

WF

 

If you took the effort to read up on facts before you post, you would know that my H and I went through MC and I had IC. We have confonted and dealt with our problems in an adult manner

[White Flower]

How nasty, and how wrong :lmao:

 

My intention was not meant to be nasty. I have real concerns for M's that 'recover' from an A when they don't do the necessary work to ensure it never happens again. Whenever someone calls a legitimate discipline, or field of study, 'psychobabble' it truly makes me concerned that they don't even understand their own issues. I really HOPE her M is healthy now as well as long lasting but I have doubts. That's all. Everybody here knows how kind I am.

 

Peace.

[TaraMaiden]

I'm actually more concerned about your 'recovered marriage' now. Good luck with that because I think all you both did was sweep things under the rug.

 

Actually, Anne and her spouse have made such wonderful progress with their relationship, they actually stand as true testimony to how successful it can be to be open, honest and direct.

They have both stepped up to the mark, "owned" their responsibilities and met in the middle, better than anyone could ever know.

I would go so far as to say that through their own diligent work, honesty, candour and openness, they've created a better marriage than that of people who have never had an infidelity upset the apple cart....

Without a gramme of pseudo-psychological, psycho-babble in sight....

So please, be very careful about making deprecating remarks and evaluations about something which - I promise you - you obviously know absolutely nothing about.

Edited January 18, 2010 by a LoveShack.org Moderator

[wuggle]

My intention was not meant to be nasty. I have real concerns for M's that 'recover' from an A when they don't do the necessary work to ensure it never happens again. Whenever someone calls a legitimate discipline, or field of study, 'psychobabble' it truly makes me concerned that they don't even understand their own issues. I really HOPE her M is healthy now as well as long lasting but I have doubts. That's all. Everybody here knows how kind I am.

 

Peace.

 

Then might I suggest before you throw statements like that around that you actually READ what other people are posting. Never has my wife said that we haven't done the necessary work, we have and still are. And IMO she is totally right, our marriage is better now, we are well on the road to recovery, all without having to 'categorise' our mistakes.

 

Good luck with that judgemental thing.

[anne1707]

Thank you Tara from both Wuggle and I

[TaraMaiden]

No need for thanks, Anne. I call it like it is.

I don't grab hypotheses and suppositions out of the air and make 2 and 2 equal one-and-a-half.

You see, this is what all this pseudo-psychological clap-trap does.

Instead of helping you think outside the box, as jennie_jennie suggested, it does the opposite.... it shoves everything into little compartments, drawers and definitions, and unless you fit into one of these, then something is obviously not logical....

Unless you conform to a specific image, pattern or little box, then you can't be doing it right.

 

Which, as Anne and Wuggle so ably demonstrate, is a pile of crock.

Edited January 17, 2010 by TaraMaiden

[White Flower]

Actually, Anne and her spouse have made such wonderful progress with their relationship, they actually stand as true testimony to how successful it can be to be open, honest and direct.

They have both stepped up to the mark, "owned" their responsibilities and met in the middle, better than anyone could ever know.

I would go so far as to say that through their own diligent work, honesty, candour and openness, they've created a better marriage than that of people who have never had an infidelity upset the apple cart....

Without a gramme of pseudo-psychological, psycho-babble in sight....

So please, be very careful about making deprecating remarks and evaluations about something which - I promise you - you obviously know absolutely nothing about.

 

I have you at a disadvantage, so trust me. Don't even go there.

I don't know what you're talking about but I do recognize flaming behavior when I see it.

 

And I never made deprecating remarks. You read into it what you wanted. All I suggested was that they swept their issues under the rug and good luck with preventing it from happening again. Good luck means good luck. In our culture, it means I hope it all works out for you.

 

The thread was an invitation to discuss an ideology. If you don't understand the dynamic, then leave the room.

 

Anne and Wuggle, I truly wish you luck and continued success in your M. I don't know what 'work' you did, but if you're still together and happy then the work must have been successful.

 

Cheers.

[TaraMaiden]

What I mean by that is that they're personal friends of mine.

That's why I have you at a disadvantage.

I know them.

You don't.

That's why I can speak from a position of "advantage".

 

How is that flaming?

 

If you don't know what I mean, ask me.

Don't accuse me of flaming.

 

As for making deprecating remarks, I believe they felt the same way....There wasn't anything to read into it.

you made remarks without doing research or asking questions first...

 

And I understand the dynamics of this 'ideology' very well.

I just think it's rubbish.

Edited January 18, 2010 by TaraMaiden

[anne1707]

I'm actually more concerned about your 'recovered marriage' now. Good luck with that because I think all you both did was sweep things under the rug.

 

My intention was not meant to be nasty. I have real concerns for M's that 'recover' from an A when they don't do the necessary work to ensure it never happens again. Whenever someone calls a legitimate discipline, or field of study, 'psychobabble' it truly makes me concerned that they don't even understand their own issues. I really HOPE her M is healthy now as well as long lasting but I have doubts. That's all. Everybody here knows how kind I am.

 

Peace.

 

And I never made deprecating remarks.

 

Deprecating - belittling, insulting (http://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/deprecating)

 

Both my H and I found your comments about the state of our marriage insulting. You implied that we did not understand what had happened in our marriage, that we had not worked at dealing with our problems and had ignored issues. Yet all I had done was participate in a discussion whereby I said that I did not think there was a need to categorise affair types in order for the marriage to recover.

 

As for the "psychobabble" comment, that is because I believe too much emphasis was being placed on just one approach to understanding affairs when there are in fact many differing valid perspectives and methodologies within counselling and psychology as a whole when considering relationships.

 

I really do not understand WF how you reached the conclusions you made. Especially as I make it clear whenever on the subject of recovery from my affair, that my H have gone through MC, I had IC and we have made changes in our marriage.

[Brokenlady]

Ok, can we get back on topic please????

 

"Categorizing" affairs is not meant to imply that all affairs will fit into those categories. It is simply meant to help people whose situations DO fit into those categories help make sense of what's happening to them and give them an idea of how their situation is likely to play out. The point of categorizing is to understand what the issues are so they can be resolved. If couples are able to accomplish that same goal without categorizing, that's great. It's just two avenues to the same goal. Categorizing isn't necessary to recover an affair, but the work is.

 

I think part of the reason people find categories comforting is it becomes obvious that you are not alone - many people have been before you through very similar situations. In fact, that is the draw of LS.

 

More specifically, the split self affair is common among men, and appears fairly common among the OW at LS. If reading more about it helps them understand the course their A's may take so that they can make an informed decision about whether to stay or go, then I think that's a fine thing. Ditto if it helps the BS's understand more about themselves and their H's affair.

 

I don't see the downside to the discussion, other than a bunch of detractors going on about "psychobabble" because they've appointed themselves experts in all matters psychological/therapeutic. If you didn't need to categorize your A, that's fantastic, but why must you insult others who find it helpful? By calling it psychobabble, you essentially call anyone who finds value in the theory "stupid". Frankly, that says a lot about you.

[Brokenlady]

As for the "psychobabble" comment, that is because I believe too much emphasis was being placed on just one approach to understanding affairs when there are in fact many differing valid perspectives and methodologies within counselling and psychology as a whole when considering relationships.

 

The title of the thread was meant to very narrow. No one said this was the be all and end all conversation for all affairs.

[grogster]

In my seven years here, I've seen this time and again: adult posters are prevented from having serious meaningful discussions about infidelity because childish posters are always interfering with their brain dead moralizing and hectoring.

 

Eventually all grown-up discussion ends and the moralizers triumph.

 

My recommendation: those of us who actually wish to learn and discuss infidelity should put all these moralistic hucksters on our ignore lists. At a minimum, don't respond to the 500th post that all learning and understanding about infidelity is a mere attempt to justify infidelity.

 

Those idiots will never recognize the distinction if it bit them on the ass.

Edited January 18, 2010 by grogster

[OWoman]

In my seven years here, I've seen this time and again: adult posters are prevented from having serious meaningful discussions about infidelity because childish posters are always interfering with their brain dead moralizing and hectoring.

 

Eventually all grown-up discussion ends and the moralizers triumph.

 

My recommendation: those of us who actually wish to learn and discuss infidelity should put all these moralistic hucksters on our ignore lists. At a minimum, don't respond to the 500th post that all learning and understanding about infidelity is a mere attempt to justify infidelity.

 

Those idiots will never recognize the distinction if it bit them on the ass.

 

Hey Grogster! Good to see you again!

 

Agree with your sentiments, BTW. Not sure why some people find rational discussion so threatening...

[NoIDidn't]

Interesting...

Just thinking out loud here....

Just as all these euphemistic phrases have come to us from America (thinking outside the box, pushing the envelope, being on the same page, running it up the flagpole....) I'm thinking that to have a Counsellor/analyst/shrink/Psychologist/Therapist is predominantly far more common and natural to Americans than it is to the British. Americans have therapists at the drop of a hat. I would almost surmise that it's far more common for people in the USA to rely on a professional of this kind than it is for the British. Although, I know, things are veering towards emulating Americans in many ways here.....

 

 

I cannot for one moment either believe or accept that these traits manifest only when an affair surfaces. Surely, if a person is prone to falling into one of these criteria, these behaviour patterns have emerged and been evident before, in other situations where infidelity hasn't been an issue? I fail to see how Dysfunctional issues that people have been working on, haven't become clear before this....Wouldn't that in itself be a bit of a red flag?

I mean, the Conflict Avoidance, Intimacy avoidance.... aren't these already obviously present? These don't suddenly appear when a spouse gets their leg over elsewhere....

 

 

 

Are you saying that MC and IC Therapists and counsellors are NOT 'ordinary people'? Did you know that the divorce rate amongst trained MC counsellors is about the same, or slightly greater than it is for "ordinary people?" and that 70% of people who go to Marriage Counselling still get divorced?

And it's for precisely these reasons, HarmonyHope, that I really don't give a fig what qualifications, diplomas, Doctorates, certificates or accreditations Ms Brown has got.

I am an 'ordinary person' and I have as much right to disagree with her theory, as anyone else has of agreeing with it.

It's rather like those 'wonderful' books, "The Secret" and "The Law of Attraction". Dress something up enough to make it sound credible, influence impressionable people, who really, in many cases are grasping at straws to find something - anything - to explain something unfathomable, and you have yourself a wonderful little recipe for making money.

 

 

 

2 years - ?? You're kidding, right?

The only person who should be considering Counselling for 2 years and on, is a person with a recognised, medical mental condition.

Otherwise, I would consider a Therapist/counsellor who has a client on their books for two years to be seriously taking advantage and lining their pockets. I would seriously question their qualifications and ability to do the job. A Therapist really doesn't want someone "on their couch" for 2 years... otherwise, wouldn't you say that there's the risk of a Counsellor-Dependency issue arising....? (More therapy.....!)

 

A little heavy-handed, but I agree.

 

This is very closely related to criminals blaming their past, their issues, and their crimes on dysfunction and expecting leniency because of it.

 

I could understand if the offender/cheater was still a child. But they aren't. We are dealing with adults. Short of an underlying mental condition (hence the two years to figure it out through the denials), no adult should wholeheartedly hang their hat on this "theory".

 

I notice that Ms. Brown is the only therapist mentioned in this thread that supports this. I am sure that there are more, but they aren't mentioned here.

 

For those that believe they are dealing with a "split-self" affair, are they doing anything different from recovering (via divorce, or MC, or IC) from a "regular" affair than the rest of us? I don't really think so. Therapists ask about previous life experiences as a matter of course. So, I too, fail to see where categorization is necessary. Either you want to work to save the marriage, or your sanity, or you don't.

[NoIDidn't]

In my seven years here, I've seen this time and again: adult posters are prevented from having serious meaningful discussions about infidelity because childish posters are always interfering with their brain dead moralizing and hectoring.

 

Eventually all grown-up discussion ends and the moralizers triumph.

 

My recommendation: those of us who actually wish to learn and discuss infidelity should put all these moralistic hucksters on our ignore lists. At a minimum, don't respond to the 500th post that all learning and understanding about infidelity is a mere attempt to justify infidelity.

 

Those idiots will never recognize the distinction if it bit them on the ass.

 

Grogster

 

I love your posts, in general, but I fail to see how calling posters "idiots" is helpful.

 

"Moralistic hucksters", in the same post as calling others "childish".

 

I see disagreement on the subject at hand. Strong disagreement. I see no need to decide who the "adults" are or aren't. Your post used lots of learned words, but it didn't quite pass "childish" itself.