Split-Self Affair (Discussion)

January 15, 2010

I say nothing with animosity or cruelty.
but all this crud and pseudo-analysis, really gets my goat.....

With you completely on this Tara and you know more than most how I am qualified to speak on this one

January 16, 2010

I could not cheat on my wife. Am I lonely? Yes I am. Do I look at other women and wonder? Yes I do. I'm a very faithful husband. I would like to think that I would end my marriage before I cheated. That's just how I roll.

Same personality of my xMM. Spends time with the kids, works 60+ hrs/week, involved at church, in bible study every week, and the list goes on.

January 16, 2010

See, in my opinion, that's pretty much the definition of an adult. That's what we do when we aren't children any more. We give up some of our desires for the good of the group, whether that group be our marriage, our children, our parents, our job, our country.... whatever. We cannot completely satisfy ourselves and still live in civilized (or any) society.

We always have to give up satisfying a "part" of us. All of us. If we don't then we are still small ego-maniacal children. .

If then one day we say "Just wait a goldurn minute... It's MY turn now!" Well, maybe we can, but maybe we can't. If we truly are "adult" (my opinion, now) then we tell the rest of the group that we need "our turn". If work, we negotiate for different hours, different pay, etc - or if need be we quit. If married - we negotiate, or if necessary we divorce. But we don't unilaterally decide that instead of negotiating we now sneak around so that we can satisfy "our" desires with no input from the rest of the group we are affecting.

At heart, it's probably obvious that I agree with Tara - I think it's primarily psycho babble.

Oh, I agree too silk. You didn't include what happens after the "But.." in my quote, but that was where it was going. To being an adult. A mature one. Not one that sounds like many in the current criminal system in the US that says "my lousy childhood made me turn to crime".

I think its primary psycho-babble as well. I said so in a previous post. But I think it has limited viability too. Its an interesting concept. But I can't imagine basically being told that I'm having an affair because of an undiagnosed mental disorder. That's really what this comes down to. Do the sufferers of SSAs disassociate in other parts of their lives, or only in their marriages? Because if its only in their marriages, I call bullshxt on this concept. Everyone has a public/private face/persona. But this takes it a little further than that.

January 16, 2010

I have lurked for awhile and contemplated posting many times, but this is the first.

I am a XOW, with a long, still fresh story that I will share at a different time.

The description of the "split-self" describes my XMM to a tee, ironically my IC also seen signs of narcissist but as I read the description - I can see how that could be seen because of the deep caring of both women, need to do what is right but the "love them both" and his strong desire to not hurt either of us anymore.

Not making excuses - but very interesting.

Jeanie,

I do have a question for you as you believe your A is also a split. When I researched it, I did not see the suggestion that the chance of divorce was higher (I may not have found the article you are referring too).

The article I read said once both people involved face the problems, they can actually open up to a healthy relationship - however as we know if MM is any kind of an avoider, that often occurs with a dday and a decision to make.

Are you ok knowing he could go counseling, that this could in fact could be the problem and that with IC he will choose at the minimum to work on the marriage due to the other investments?( history,money, ease)

Certainly not judging, just trying to see how if you both have an idea this is what is happening... and that it isn't an "exit affair - which is the safest from our "ow" perspective you can manage emotionally knowing that it is very possible he will remain in the marriage if forced with a decision.

I will be honest, wish I did more homework on A when we embarked on it. I know we loved each other, but the pain and damage is something I would have never seen coming. Had I even remotely had experience or real knowledge of an affair... I think I would have ran ( at least I hope I would have, I can certainly say I will now)

It is an interesting thread, and has given me a great deal to think about. We are not together but I know the hard work is only beginning. I need to figure out how I got here and I still love him enough to want to understand from his perspective as well.

January 16, 2010

Myowntwofeet, the summary with the mention of the probability of divorce being above average is taken from Emily Brown's book: Patterns of Infidelity and Their Treatment.

Yes, I am okay with knowing that IC might result in my MM choosing his marriage. You should have heard me the other day when I was strongly urging him to go to an IC. It is what it is. It is his life, his decision. If he prefers his wife and his marriage, then so be it.

Of course I secretly hope that his wife will not do her part and go to IC, but I have given him all information I have found about the Split Self Affair, so it is up to him what he wants to do with it.

My MM's life is just so crowded of obligations, family, work, church, you name it. I think he was drowning in all this. And just like it is stated he really has no close friends, hardly any friends at all. I know when he contacted me he was also having religious doubts. His inner world was already changing.

He actually seems to be more about the importance of choosing woman than I am. I emphasize his own issues, and that if he deals with them a decision of which woman to go with will likely follow.

Welcome to LS by the way!

Edited January 16, 2010 by jennie-jennie

January 16, 2010

NID, dysfunctionality is hardly a mental disorder. Isn't this what the Split Self affair is about?: A person from a dysfunctional family of origin who has a dysfunctional behavioral pattern of trying to do the right thing and neglecting their own emotional needs.

January 16, 2010

NID, dysfunctionality is hardly a mental disorder. Isn't this what the Split Self affair is about?: A person from a dysfunctional family of origin who has a dysfunctional behavioral pattern of trying to do the right thing and neglecting their own emotional needs.

Hanging your behaviour on previous experiences, and finding excuses for it in past history - IS the dysfunction.

January 16, 2010

Hanging your behaviour on previous experiences, and finding excuses for it in past history - IS the dysfunction.

It is not about excuses, Tara, it is about explanations which can help you know how to deal with your issues. Here you have a couple who thought they were doing everything right, who perhaps exactly because they came from dysfunctional families have been trying to do everything the right way, so it would not be as when they grew up. Only to discover in their middle age that something is wrong, something that is manifesting itself in an affair.

Both the WS and the BS have neglected a part of themselves which they thought they could do without. But it is not working. So where do we go from here? Feel bad and guilty versus betrayed the rest of our lives, or try to change something deep within?

We are never done. There are always things we can work on. We are a product of our past, but we can do something about it today.

January 16, 2010

I agree that some people may look upon psychological reasoning as a excuse, if it helps them to deal with the trauma a split-self affair throws at them. It's not. A reason is not an excuse.

If a couple realises that the infidelity was that of a split-self affair does it help them to work through it? I can imagine that it would as you may look deeper for those underlying causal issues. I don't know.

As with so many, it describes my xMM completely. In his situation he has gone back and forth a few times, between wanting to leave and feeling like he should work on the M, a symptom I know realise of a split-self affair. I've also read that they tend to do this flip-flopping indefinitely, as long as they can get away with it.

With my xMM though, his W doesn't know of the affair. He will never tell her. In my opinion this will make it harder to fix, I honestly don't know how he keeps in it. Not my problem, I know, I just wonder how many others there are still splitting themseves even after the affair is over because surely if you never deal with the split within yourself, you never heal it.

January 16, 2010

I can see in myself many elements that comprise this split self. I grew up in an emotional neglectful environment. The main conflict in my affair was me wanting my emotional needs met through the A versus doing the right thing and staying in my M

In the end however, whether I can see merit to this theory as a precondition to my affair..it was me that made the hundreds of choices that comprised the affair. Each one made with the understanding of the consequences.

As many have already said...I do not think that theories on infidelity are intended to be excuses. Our culture is very fixated on the etiology of problem behavior...much more then the rehabilitation, or sadly the prevention. Due to this there are many labels and syndromes out there. Most of them are just catchy names to put onto a cluster if circumstances that tend to occur in some frequency.

Many people that have affairs are working out issues from their childhood. I am one. This does not absolve my responsibility and accountability...it just helps guide me to where I need to work on myself.

January 16, 2010

I can see in myself many elements that comprise this split self. I grew up in an emotional neglectful environment. The main conflict in my affair was me wanting my emotional needs met through the A versus doing the right thing and staying in my M

In the end however, whether I can see merit to this theory as a precondition to my affair..it was me that made the hundreds of choices that comprised the affair. Each one made with the understanding of the consequences.

As many have already said...I do not think that theories on infidelity are intended to be excuses. Our culture is very fixated on the etiology of problem behavior...much more then the rehabilitation, or sadly the prevention. Due to this there are many labels and syndromes out there. Most of them are just catchy names to put onto a cluster if circumstances that tend to occur in some frequency.

Many people that have affairs are working out issues from their childhood. I am one. This does not absolve my responsibility and accountability...it just helps guide me to where I need to work on myself.

DI. I always look forward to your posts because

A) you are so honest and trying so hard to introspect your behavior and

B) you have a background in psychology

With that being said, please post sometime HOW you think the emotional neglect of your childhood was a contributing factor in starting your affair.

If it is not too personal. I think many here would have food for thought, growth and some healing.

Sorry for the tj.

January 16, 2010

This post is very interesting because your internal dialog--like that of many people who have affairs--is entirely focused on your subjective internal emotional state, rather than any identifiable external objective reality.

Instead you need to think of things from a non-subjective perspective: i.e. as a married person, what are my obligations to (1) myself (2) my spouse (3) to the marital relationship?

Obviously, emotional and physical fidelity/exclusivity to one's spouse is a primary obligation to self, spouse, and the relationship. (Unless one has an explicitly "open" marriage which seems not to be the case here.) All else flows from that realization.

Let me give you an analogy. Let's say Monday morning roles around and it's time to get up and go to work but you partied hard the previous weekend and just don't "feel" like it.

Are you entitled to miss work just because you don't "feel like" working that day? Second, are you entitled to call in "sick" (i.e. lie to your boss) to get the day off without consequences? Third, assuming you do lie and call in sick, and get away with it, but are later discovered to have done so, doesn't your boss have the right to fire you?

Haven't you done a series of wrong actions by not living up to your employment obligations?

Are you entitled to call in sick to your job because you are secretly also working at a second job and want to get the sick pay from job one and the additional income from job 2?

I think if you put a moment's thought into things, you would say the person who does these things is clearly in the wrong.

Now, isn't your marriage much more important than your job? Isn't your commitment to your spouse much more important to your commitment to any employer?

Also, you think you have fallen in love with a married man. Do you think you have no moral or ethical obligation to the married man's spouse, i.e., not to help him cheat on his spouse? If not, why not? Why do you have no moral nor ethical obligation to his betrayed spouse? I am not saying you do or you don't have a moral or ethical obligation; I am asking you instead whether you even consider these sorts of issues before engaging in behaviors which influence people other than yourself. And, what about the effect of these behaviors on any children of either relationship?

How do you define "love"? It seems to me many cheaters define "love" as something they think they "feel" in certain situations rather than as a series of behaviors and obligations. E.g. "love" is simply a pleasant or tingly or giddy feeling and not much more. If a particular stimulus results in that tingly or giddy feeling they think they are "in love."

Do you have children? I do, and I love them dearly. When they get a fever and are vomiting all over the carpet, and I get no sleep all night, and I (and my wife) have to spend the entire night sleepless taking care of them, and cleaning up vomit, THAT is "love". To me anyway.

Please take note of the different interpretations of "love."

this is one of the more fabulous posts I've ever read on LS

And GREAT analogy! good job!

January 16, 2010

By categorising an affair, it is almost as if you are saying some affairs are not as bad as others or that some are more excusable than others. Affairs destroy relationships and hurt all involved - regardless of "type"

Excellent post!!!

January 17, 2010

People choose to have an affair with someone else, because they want to. It's neither nice, nor nasty. It is what it is. Desire takes over from commitment.

if they're so frightened of getting too close, why have an affair with someone else - they might get too close to? That would increase the problem, not decrease it, wouldn't it?
Intimacy Avoidance actually means Intimacy Re-direction.
They have an affair with someone else, because they choose desire over commitment.
or did I say that already?

Like I said, Sexual addicition is probably (more often than not) a smoke-screen... see above comment regarding desire/commitment.

So instead of looking to their commitment, they choose to go elsewhere for the gratification of their desire....

I can see a pattern emerging here....

The bottom line, for me, is that this is all a pile of psycho-babble.
The fact is, and the fact remains, that having sex outside of marriage, is a choice.
And people choose to give in to desire, in preference to facing up to their commitment.
you can label it whatever you want. At the end of the day, nobody holds a cheater to ransom. they do what they do, because they chose to.

Excellent post TM -- especially the bolded part. I completely agree!

January 17, 2010

It is not about excuses, Tara, it is about explanations which can help you know how to deal with your issues.

Semantics.

Explanations is just another word for justification.

Issues is just another word for wrongdoing.

Please, give me some credit.

it doesn't matter what your past, what reasons you have for functioning in the way you do - an action you know to be unwise/unskillful/sinful/wrong/misguided/ is still one you know you shouldn't take.

Really, what is so difficult?

Having an affair with somebody outside your marriage goes aainst a promise already made.

That, clearly, is not a correct course of action.

The dysfunctional background has absolutely nothing whatsoever to do with it.

Here you have a couple who thought they were doing everything right, who perhaps exactly because they came from dysfunctional families have been trying to do everything the right way, so it would not be as when they grew up.

That would depend entirely on what the 'dysfunctional' factor was.

Only to discover in their middle age that something is wrong, something that is manifesting itself in an affair.

What, out of the blue? catch them by surprise, did it?

"Oh my goodness! look at that! How incredible, did you see that?? And now - would you believe it? I'm having an affair! Golly-gee, didn't see that coming!! Who'd have thought that this *insert dysfunctional factor here* would suddenly lead me into crawling into somebody else's bed! Crikey, who'd have thunk it??"

Who, indeed?

Both the WS and the BS have neglected a part of themselves which they thought they could do without. But it is not working. So where do we go from here? Feel bad and guilty versus betrayed the rest of our lives, or try to change something deep within?

Remorse and feeling bad about a current action, has no bearing on the self-inflicted burden of continuing to carry something from the past.

This is a smoke and mirrors argument.

That was then, this is now. Again, it's using the past to prop up the present.

Paint it any way you want.

It stinks.

We are never done. There are always things we can work on. We are a product of our past, but we can do something about it today.

Quite.

like make current choices, today, about things that are happening today, according to the events placed before us today, that will have a consequence, today.

We are not products of our past.

We are perpetuators of our past.

Or not.

As we so choose.

January 17, 2010

The bottom line, for me, is that this is all a pile of psycho-babble.
The fact is, and the fact remains, that having sex outside of marriage, is a choice.
And people choose to give in to desire, in preference to facing up to their commitment.
you can label it whatever you want. At the end of the day, nobody holds a cheater to ransom. they do what they do, because they chose to.

Ms. Brown has a doctorate, years of experience, and well respected research in peer-reviewed journals. Do you have some legitimate issue with her methodology? How exactly are you qualified to dismiss it as "psycho-babble"? None of this is meant to absolve anyone of responsibility - it is to understand why the behaviors take place. Without that understanding, one is doomed to repeat it. No one is sitting here blaming their mommy for their affair or for their setting the stage for their H's affair. Rather it's an understanding of where things came from in order to change the behaviors. If you'd rather the oversimplified rather closed-minded black and white approach, that is your preference, but I don't think it's helpful, let alone useful.

January 17, 2010

Ms. Brown has a doctorate, years of experience, and well respected research in peer-reviewed journals. Do you have some legitimate issue with her methodology? How exactly are you qualified to dismiss it as "psycho-babble"? None of this is meant to absolve anyone of responsibility - it is to understand why the behaviors take place. Without that understanding, one is doomed to repeat it. No one is sitting here blaming their mommy for their affair or for their setting the stage for their H's affair. Rather it's an understanding of where things came from in order to change the behaviors. If you'd rather the oversimplified rather closed-minded black and white approach, that is your preference, but I don't think it's helpful, let alone useful.

Exactly. I thought we were invited to discuss the phenomenon of split-self affairs. We had a forum and even a subject but when somebody decided the subject is invalid the thread went haywire. I suppose we all just put those posters on ignore and go on with our discussion?

January 17, 2010

But surely it is relevant to discuss whether there is actually such a phenomenon? Or whether you really need to categorise the affair in order to deal with its consequences?

January 17, 2010

I wonder why there is such a strong response from many against the categorization of affairs. If it can help people stop having affairs, solve their problems and save their marriages, one would think that would be good.

January 17, 2010

JJ

I was a BS and then a WS. I never needed to know what "category" of affair it was to deal with it. My marriage has been saved by hard work and total honesty between my H and I with no need for psycho-babble

January 17, 2010

JJ

I was a BS and then a WS. I never needed to know what "category" of affair it was to deal with it. My marriage has been saved by hard work and total honesty between my H and I with no need for psycho-babble

Good for you, but there may be others that are helped by this. Why does that bother you? (assuming that it does)

January 17, 2010

Good for you, but there may be others that are helped by this. Why does that bother you? (assuming that it does)

:lmao:

I am not at all bothered. It seems to me that some here are convinced that you need to categorise before you can recover from an affair but that is complete nonsense.

To recover from an affair (whether BS, WS or OW/OM) just requires complete honesty. Putting a name on the affair "type" actually risks losing clarity in my opinion because you risk only looking at issues that fit in with that type.

January 17, 2010

:lmao:

To recover from an affair (whether BS, WS or OW/OM) just requires complete honesty. Putting a name on the affair "type" actually risks losing clarity in my opinion because you risk only looking at issues that fit in with that type.

I can agree that initially it may be helpful to just be completely honest and own that you broke your marriage vows. However, I do think that part of recovery process does involve looking at some of the conditions before the affair. We need to have insight into our blind spots and shortcomings in order to really make behavioral changes.

January 17, 2010

:lmao:

I am not at all bothered. It seems to me that some here are convinced that you need to categorise before you can recover from an affair but that is complete nonsense.

To recover from an affair (whether BS, WS or OW/OM) just requires complete honesty. Putting a name on the affair "type" actually risks losing clarity in my opinion because you risk only looking at issues that fit in with that type.

That is underestimating people in my opinion. We humans have always liked to have models to better understand the world around us. Nothing wrong with that. It doesn't mean that we can't look outside the box.

Isn't this exactly why we like to read on LS? Seeing the patterns of infidelity and affairs helps us understand what is happening in our own lives.

You know of course that IC and MC therapists are educated people who have studied these kind of things. I have two books here at home by Emily Brown. One is for us ordinary people, one is used as a resource for therapists and counselors. The therapists need more than honesty to be able to help people, they need knowledge about what is going on.

You might have noticed above that the WS of the Split Self affair is recommended IC for at least two years. If this categorization of affairs can help some WS realize that they need IC and perhaps MC, is that not great?

January 17, 2010

I can agree that initially it may be helpful to just be completely honest and own that you broke your marriage vows. However, I do think that part of recovery process does involve looking at some of the conditions before the affair. We need to have insight into our blind spots and shortcomings in order to really make behavioral changes.

I totally agree with this and if you look at any posts I have made on the subject of dealing with the recovery of from an affair, I do talk of having to deal with any problems/issues leading up to the affair. After all, without that there is no chance of recovery.

JJ - thanks for letting me know therapists are educated people but I kind of knew that already . I also don't think a good therapist would decide how long therapy would be just based on the recommendations in a book. The overriding factor would be the progress of the "patient".

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