norajane Posted January 14, 2010 Posted January 14, 2010 But they don't see it that way as long as they're never caught. And until it becomes knowledge, then they can pretend it's not happening. My xMM once told me about a woman who worked for him and she was really upset one day. He asked her what was wrong and she told him that she just found out that her daughter's husband was cheating on her. He said that his first reaction was to get really indignant and he said, "Why, that SOB..." and then he said he caught himself and realized that he was doing the same thing. He said he shut up then. I often thought about this and realized that we are so quick to judge, but when we're in that very same position, the whole thing looks different. It really made me laugh. Well, if MM are too caught up in themselves to realize and admit they ARE that SOB, then it would be in OW's best interests to realize it herself and the only thing she's going to get from an SOB is more sh*t in her life. Protect yourselves since the SOB is only looking out for himself.
Angel1111 Posted January 14, 2010 Posted January 14, 2010 Well, if MM are too caught up in themselves to realize and admit they ARE that SOB, then it would be in OW's best interests to realize it herself and the only thing she's going to get from an SOB is more sh*t in her life. Protect yourselves since the SOB is only looking out for himself. Oh, it's nice to generalize but not everyone who gets involved in affairs are dirty, rotten scoundrels. xMM was and is a good man. You missed the humor in that situation; about how we're all so quick to judge. Also, to me, it just showed his real opinion about people who cheat and he didn't even think of himself as a cheater. I think that's just how disconnected he and his wife had become. Are they now? I don't know. That was 5 yrs ago.
fooled once Posted January 14, 2010 Posted January 14, 2010 My MM has never said he wished something bad would happen to his wife, but he has said he wished that she would just leave. Sometimes I think these guys struggle so much because they don't want to be percieved as 'the bad guy'. He doesn't want to be the one to leave, the one to break her heart, the one who 'abandoned' his family. My MM will not leave his family, at least right now, because of his sense of duty, obligation, but he has said that if she were to leave, or decide to divorce, he would be sad about not being there all the time with his child, but that he would 'live with it'. I think a big part of his issue is how he thinks others will view him. The extended families, long time family friends... he still wants them all to think of him as a 'good guy'. I think a lot of MM struggle with how "society" will view them if/when they "walk out" on their families. I think this guys comment stems from that kind of "societal" pressure.. if something happend to his wife, no one would think poorly of him when after a while, he moved on with his life, and found happiness and love with someone new. But, if he divorces, he not only abandoned, deserted his family.. but if he takes up with a new love right away, the new love is also scorned and made to feel as an outcast as obviously she was a "homewrecker"... I think his comment is more about wishing things were different... I really don't ascribe any true ill intent to it. I ended my first marriage. I didn't want to live miserably the rest of my life. Do people think it is any easier for the wife to end the marriage? Do people really think the wife doesn't struggle with breaking up the family? I mean come on, in MY mind, ending a marriage is a BIG thing; but instead of whining about it and complaining about it, DO something about it. that is what I don't understand. But I guess in cowardly men's eyes, it is just "easier" for her to do it than him.
norajane Posted January 14, 2010 Posted January 14, 2010 I ended my first marriage. I didn't want to live miserably the rest of my life. Do people think it is any easier for the wife to end the marriage? Do people really think the wife doesn't struggle with breaking up the family? I mean come on, in MY mind, ending a marriage is a BIG thing; but instead of whining about it and complaining about it, DO something about it. that is what I don't understand. But I guess in cowardly men's eyes, it is just "easier" for her to do it than him. I'd amend that to: instead of whining about it, complaining about it, and having an affair, DO something about it.
jennie-jennie Posted January 14, 2010 Posted January 14, 2010 I ended my first marriage. I didn't want to live miserably the rest of my life. Do people think it is any easier for the wife to end the marriage? Do people really think the wife doesn't struggle with breaking up the family? I mean come on, in MY mind, ending a marriage is a BIG thing; but instead of whining about it and complaining about it, DO something about it. that is what I don't understand. But I guess in cowardly men's eyes, it is just "easier" for her to do it than him. Truth is it is easier for women, that is why so many more women than men initiate divorce. It has to do with the man's role as a provider.
NoIDidn't Posted January 14, 2010 Posted January 14, 2010 Truth is it is easier for women, that is why so many more women than men initiate divorce. It has to do with the man's role as a provider. I disagree with this logic. If a man is so concerned with his role as provider, he wouldn't be out jeopardizing it. A woman generally has the role of nurturing the family. How is she going to nurture the family when she is expected to dissolve it because the "provider" is too afraid to do so? I think most divorces are initiated by women because many men just push them into doing so to keep from being further disrespected or mistreated. Its the oldest trick in the book, used first when they are teens. To break up with a girl, they just stop calling her, stop giving her attention and basically wait until she tells them that the relationship isn't working for HER anymore. When the truth is, it wasn't working for them FIRST they were just too chicken to say so.
whichwayisup Posted January 14, 2010 Posted January 14, 2010 Exactly NID. And even more so with stop calling, not returning calls etc, they just start acting like big jerks to make you hate/dislike them enough to end it. So highschool..One would figure a guy would grow out of that as he gets older, eh?
jennie-jennie Posted January 14, 2010 Posted January 14, 2010 A woman generally has the role of nurturing the family. How is she going to nurture the family when she is expected to dissolve it because the "provider" is too afraid to do so? She brings the kids with her.
jennie-jennie Posted January 14, 2010 Posted January 14, 2010 Think about it. Why is it so much more common for MW to leave their marriage for the OM or the MOM than for MM to do it for the OW or the MOW? Because the men are cowards? Come on. It goes much deeper than that. Francesco Alberoni in SEX AND LOVE (2005): "The decision to terminate a love relationship for altruistic reasons is becoming more frequent today among men. By and large, they tend to prolong any sort of official love relationship they are involved in. This can be explained in part, at least in the Western world, by the wellestablished historical practice of monogamy, which has engrained in men a sense of duty towards their wife and children—a sense of duty that continues to be felt even though the historical circumstances have changed. Consequently, when they fall in love with a woman other than their wife or go to live with their mistress, they feel—especially if they have children—a terrific amount of guilt. Only if the woman pushes them with determination to get a legal separation or divorce do they actually do so. For women today, on the other hand, the decision to terminate a love relationship for self-centred reasons is becoming more frequent. Historically speaking, women have always been raised to believe that they need to sacrifice their own needs for those of their men, and to accept or at least tolerate their defects. For this reason they tend to stay longer in a relationship and work to make it last. That said, when they no longer feel loved or when they decide that this love is impossible or mistaken, they know how to break things off in a decisive manner, without looking back. And they have yet another source of strength to help them when they decide to sever these martial ties: they know that they will almost certainly be granted custody of the children."
anne1707 Posted January 14, 2010 Posted January 14, 2010 Actually JJ if you read your quote properly, it does not say that it is more common for women to leave than it is for a man. It says that women are now more likely to leave than they would have done in the past - the reference to this behaviour being more frequent is only in terms of women now compared to women in the past.
jennie-jennie Posted January 14, 2010 Posted January 14, 2010 (edited) Actually JJ if you read your quote properly, it does not say that it is more common for women to leave than it is for a man. It says that women are now more likely to leave than they would have done in the past - the reference to this behaviour being more frequent is only in terms of women now compared to women in the past. True. I drew the conclusion that it is more common for women to leave for a new love than men from other places, not from this quote. This quote was intended to show the conditions for the man/provider versus the woman/caretaker. The quote also indicates why it is harder for men to accept and forgive their spouse's infidelity than for women. Edited January 14, 2010 by jennie-jennie
silverplanets Posted January 14, 2010 Posted January 14, 2010 Cowards. They'd rather BE the bad guy by lying, cheating, deceiving, manipulating and stringing two women along than be perceived as the bad guy by honestly facing up to and addressing the issues in their marriage one way or another. There's some self-centered, selfish, narcissistic logic for you. He'd rather BE an ass than maybe look like one to some people. Nice one ! I like it
OWoman Posted January 14, 2010 Posted January 14, 2010 I think most divorces are initiated by women because many men just push them into doing so to keep from being further disrespected or mistreated. Its the oldest trick in the book' date=' used first when they are teens. To break up with a girl, they just stop calling her, stop giving her attention and basically wait until she tells them that the relationship isn't working for HER anymore. When the truth is, it wasn't working for them FIRST they were just too chicken to say so.[/quote'] Gosh - things were very different in my home country! It was always guys dumping girls, and the girls clinging and begging for another chance, among teens (Fortunately I never had any interest in dating teens ) The girls were completely pathetic - they'd be passive gigglers, while the guys would act big and crack jokes throughout class and play up for attention. All part of the "guy chooses, girl acts pouty and pretty to get chosen" scenario - one I've never bought into. My father initiated the D with my mother. I guess his "providing needs" were sated as the kids were all grown. I initiated the D with my xH - he didn't have any "provider" issues since he'd long given up trying to pretend to be a grown-up My brothers were D'd by their Ws - because their Ws got tired of their ****. Neither my brothers nor my xH wanted to D. It wasn't that they checked out and just wanted someone else to pull the plug. They were the more dependent partner in the M, certainly emotionally but probably in other ways too.
silverplanets Posted January 14, 2010 Posted January 14, 2010 My xMw (see I call her ex now .. definately an improvement) used to come up with lots of classics ... Similar to the OP but on a different angle was "I wish I could just clone one of me and leave them with him (the husband) then he could still be happy and I could be happy with you" .. I call it similar because although the picture is different the sad honesty visible in the sentiment of both is the same " if only there was a magic wand that would mean I wouldn't have to actually DO anything for us to be together" ... mmm. ..... used to make me feel SO special (not) that one did ! some more: - I'm supporting him to get a new job because it will mean him moving - I think he's having an affair, and I hope he finds someone he loves and leaves me - Because he thinks I am having an affair I can't divorce him now .. (this one always made me laugh !) plus of course all the standard ones, like ... one more holiday for the kids, his mother/dog/goat/neighbours goldfish is dying/ill/has a cold as I can't leave now I used to share these with my friend and I think that's what used to keep me sane at the time ... And on the "wish they would die" angle I kind of agree with Angel .. they probably (hopefully??) don't mean exactly that but in a sad way they are giving a mile deep insight into what they are thinking "I am so desperate not to make the descision myself that my mind is throwing up all sorts of silly ideas for getting my way without having to take any action" It's a scary, unreal, place inside them ! Chris
BlueeyedJonesy Posted January 14, 2010 Posted January 14, 2010 Miss the kiss, you are sooooo much better off without that D bag! He doesn't deserve you, or his wife. That is just plain creepy that he would say something like that about someone he took vows to and had children with (assuming he does) I agree with a few PP...this man is a coward! Scott Peterson...helloo??? and another thing, if you really have to justify this comment you might want to rethink you relationships.
NoIDidn't Posted January 14, 2010 Posted January 14, 2010 True. I drew the conclusion that it is more common for women to leave for a new love than men from other places, not from this quote. This quote was intended to show the conditions for the man/provider versus the woman/caretaker. The quote also indicates why it is harder for men to accept and forgive their spouse's infidelity than for women. I don't see how you derived the second conclusion from that quote either. It says nothing about why a man has a harder time forgiving infidelity in a woman. What it DOES say is that a pushy OW may get the MM to leave quicker than just waiting on him to do it. You sure mention this book and author a lot. But it doesn't seem like your conclusions are anywhere near his intentions.
jennie-jennie Posted January 14, 2010 Posted January 14, 2010 I don't see how you derived the second conclusion from that quote either. It says nothing about why a man has a harder time forgiving infidelity in a woman. What it DOES say is that a pushy OW may get the MM to leave quicker than just waiting on him to do it. You sure mention this book and author a lot. But it doesn't seem like your conclusions are anywhere near his intentions. NID, I have read 5 books or so by this author and many books by other authors as well, so sorry if what I am saying is not only based on the short quote I gave here. I am a total fan of Alberoni, so thereof my continually mentioning him. My thought about why a man has a harder time accepting and forgiving infidelity than a woman was based on this: "Historically speaking, women have always been raised to believe that they need to sacrifice their own needs for those of their men, and to accept or at least tolerate their defects. For this reason they tend to stay longer in a relationship and work to make it last."
anne1707 Posted January 14, 2010 Posted January 14, 2010 My thought about why a man has a harder time accepting and forgiving infidelity than a woman was based on this: "Historically speaking, women have always been raised to believe that they need to sacrifice their own needs for those of their men, and to accept or at least tolerate their defects. For this reason they tend to stay longer in a relationship and work to make it last." Accept or tolerate does not equate to forgive in my book. Plus that is "historically speaking" - so what about now in the 21st century when women have financial independence?
silktricks Posted January 14, 2010 Posted January 14, 2010 It has to do with the man's role as a provider. Hmmm - this may have some merit for some age groups, but doesn't the fact that more and more women are at least equal "providers" for their families negate this somewhat?
Angel1111 Posted January 14, 2010 Posted January 14, 2010 Hmmm - this may have some merit for some age groups, but doesn't the fact that more and more women are at least equal "providers" for their families negate this somewhat? Nothing negates instinct. This is inbred in men. Perhaps in 1,000 yrs, evolution may tone that down a bit. But don't hold your breath.
Fallen Angel Posted January 14, 2010 Posted January 14, 2010 Hmmm - this may have some merit for some age groups, but doesn't the fact that more and more women are at least equal "providers" for their families negate this somewhat? It would negate it for a man who feels as though he is in an equal partnership in the 'providing' department. Or if he was someone who had no problem being, himself, dependent on his spouse. But for a man who feels that HIS ROLE AS A MAN is to be financial provider (even if it is with the spouses help) then, no, it does not change anything. Even in this day and age, there are many men who feel morally obligated to provide support (financial, and physical presence) for their families, even though they have emotionally checked out of the marriage. In their minds, there is a distinct difference between the marriage, and the family which includes the marriage. For example, when My MM speaks about the future (the NEAR future) he says that he can not abandon his "family", that he loves his family; but when asked (by someone other than me) if once the children are ALL grown and out of the house, if he imagines he will stay in his marriage his answer is that most likely he will not, as his MARRIAGE is unfulfilling and his family will not exist anymore. (His words, not mine.)
Holding-On Posted January 14, 2010 Posted January 14, 2010 I disagree with this logic. If a man is so concerned with his role as provider, he wouldn't be out jeopardizing it. A woman generally has the role of nurturing the family. How is she going to nurture the family when she is expected to dissolve it because the "provider" is too afraid to do so? I think most divorces are initiated by women because many men just push them into doing so to keep from being further disrespected or mistreated. Its the oldest trick in the book, used first when they are teens. To break up with a girl, they just stop calling her, stop giving her attention and basically wait until she tells them that the relationship isn't working for HER anymore. When the truth is, it wasn't working for them FIRST they were just too chicken to say so. In the USA (and Canada) I think this holds a lot of water. At least in my experiences. The awful thing is that a great many men on the web then turn it around and site the fact that 70% of divorces are initiated by women as proof that women are horrid. Sigh. Can't win for losing.
jennie-jennie Posted January 14, 2010 Posted January 14, 2010 It would negate it for a man who feels as though he is in an equal partnership in the 'providing' department. Or if he was someone who had no problem being, himself, dependent on his spouse. But for a man who feels that HIS ROLE AS A MAN is to be financial provider (even if it is with the spouses help) then, no, it does not change anything. Even in this day and age, there are many men who feel morally obligated to provide support (financial, and physical presence) for their families, even though they have emotionally checked out of the marriage. In their minds, there is a distinct difference between the marriage, and the family which includes the marriage. For example, when My MM speaks about the future (the NEAR future) he says that he can not abandon his "family", that he loves his family; but when asked (by someone other than me) if once the children are ALL grown and out of the house, if he imagines he will stay in his marriage his answer is that most likely he will not, as his MARRIAGE is unfulfilling and his family will not exist anymore. (His words, not mine.) Well said, FA. I just find it so much more interesting to try and understand the MM's psyche and his motivations, than to badmouth him calling him a coward, a liar, a sc*mbag, whatever. My MM (and most likely many other MM) is a good man. There are reasons he is still maintaining both the marriage and the extramarital relationship. The more I understand him, the easier it is to fare well in my relationship with him.
Fallen Angel Posted January 14, 2010 Posted January 14, 2010 Well said, FA. I just find it so much more interesting to try and understand the MM's psyche and his motivations, than to badmouth him calling him a coward, a liar, a sc*mbag, whatever. My MM (and most likely many other MM) is a good man. There are reasons he is still maintaining both the marriage and the extramarital relationship. The more I understand him, the easier it is to fare well in my relationship with him. LMAO.. Sweet Jennie, I,too, try very hard to understand why My MM does the things he does, says the things he says, and acts/reacts to situations like he does. And I do understand the split-self affair you make sure to remind us all about. ( I hope you know it is friendly teasing.. I go on about certain books that other people here think I am crazy to have even read let alone agree with at least 80 percent of ) And I truely believe that he is a good man, or I would not be in a relationship with him. I understand the innate desires he has to do what is 'right' by his family, while at the same time he is torn because of his love for me. But as much as you and I want to defend the men we love, they are still cowards. I understand they are torn, but even in the midst of their mental tug of war, they KNOW, consiously, the right thing to do is to either give us up and fix their marriages, or end their marriages and do right by us. They are just too cowardly to make a move either way. It does not mean they are not good men, it doea not mean they are weak men, it is that they fear they will do the wrong thing, and lose their own happiness along the way (which ever way they chose, they will have to give up an essential part of themselves, as you by now know full well, having all the knowledge you can find about the split-self affair *shrug*)
jennie-jennie Posted January 15, 2010 Posted January 15, 2010 But as much as you and I want to defend the men we love, they are still cowards. I understand they are torn, but even in the midst of their mental tug of war, they KNOW, consiously, the right thing to do is to either give us up and fix their marriages, or end their marriages and do right by us. They are just too cowardly to make a move either way. It does not mean they are not good men, it doea not mean they are weak men, it is that they fear they will do the wrong thing, and lose their own happiness along the way (which ever way they chose, they will have to give up an essential part of themselves, as you by now know full well, having all the knowledge you can find about the split-self affair *shrug*) I just don't agree, FA. Coward is a derogatory term in my opinon. I don't use words like that. I have seen my MM change, evolve into a different person in front of my eyes during our relationship. This period of his life is life-altering. He is now truer to himself than he ever has been. Sure, the method of having an extramarital affair might not be the best, but the metamorphis is happening just the same. It is a life-crisis, and life-crisises give way to change and progress. Never would I use the word coward in that context. I am certain most posters on LS will not agree with what I have written here, but I have seen it happen, you have not.
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