Are there even such things are disorders like NPD?

[Taramere]

BookerT, this discussion is almost moving towards an Ayn Rand direction. If you haven't, you might want to read up on Objectivism, where no one is altruistic. It's fascinating and has a siren call to the narcissist in everyone. Just remember to retain your humanity or you might find yourself too heavily immersed in it, from the wrong perspective.

 

Too right! I read the Fountainhead in my early twenties, and it threw me into quite the conflict. She's extremely persuasive, but I think her own lack of empathy (not to mention her early experiences in communist Russia) made it impossible for her to apply quite the level of rationality (with regard to analysing human nature) that she prided herself on.

[BookerT]

BookerT, this discussion is almost moving towards an Ayn Rand direction. If you haven't, you might want to read up on Objectivism, where no one is altruistic. It's fascinating and has a siren call to the narcissist in everyone. Just remember to retain your humanity or you might find yourself too heavily immersed in it, from the wrong perspective.

 

Hmm, yeah I guess I can come across as overly negative. I'm not saying no one is altruistic. Rather I'm saying every normal person also has altruistic and narcissitic elements to their personality.

 

Look at this forum for example. If you start a thread about men are like this or women are like this, you often get people that come along that say. "I disagree, because I've had this experience". They think their experience which could be the exception to the rule is more important than it really is.

 

Another example, I was talking with friends the other day about this. Note how in a group photo most people just look at themselves, and often miss things about other people in the pics.

 

A degree of selfishness is required for an organism to survive.

 

I just think that in a given population it's more like a spectrum, and what % of people that show narcissitical behavior is just a reflection of the moral values and norms of that society.

[theBrokenMuse]

Ok so here's the deal.

 

Can we all switch to being narcissists if we were put in an environment where survival was at stake andd life was more extreme?

Not in an NPD sense, no.

[carhill]

[BookerT]

 

I don't get what this has to do with the discussion at hand? So many people lie when put on the spot and about to get in trouble.

[theBrokenMuse]

Too right! I read the Fountainhead in my early twenties, and it threw me into quite the conflict. She's extremely persuasive, but I think her own lack of empathy (not to mention her early experiences in communist Russia) made it impossible for her to apply quite the level of rationality (with regard to analysing human nature) that she prided herself on.

Rand's take on Altruism if memory serves me well is that it is an act giving that is damaging to the self but some of her views just didn't jive right for me. I think she had a very naive idea about how the business world would work freed from any and all regulations.

[threebyfate]

Too right! I read the Fountainhead in my early twenties, and it threw me into quite the conflict. She's extremely persuasive, but I think her own lack of empathy (not to mention her early experiences in communist Russia) made it impossible for her to apply quite the level of rationality (with regard to analysing human nature) that she prided herself on.

That's why it's almost impossible for any human being to be 100% intellectual. We're all products of our past environments, where bias creeps in, no matter how hard we try.

[carhill]

I don't get what this has to do with the discussion at hand? So many people lie when put on the spot and about to get in trouble.

If you don't get it, I can't help you, sorry. I've seen enough of it in real life to know the signs.

 

I think she had a very naive idea about how the business world would work freed from any and all regulations.

 

Even with regulation, it's a narcissist's playground. They just pay off the regulators

Edited January 12, 2010 by carhill

[BookerT]

If you don't get it, I can't help you, sorry. I've seen enough of it in real life to know the signs.

 

Oh come on, even kids caught for doing something wrong often lie to their parents.

 

That's what I'm saying lying, deception and manipulation are behaviors that are more widespread that people are comfortable admitting.

[theBrokenMuse]

 

Even with regulation, it's a narcissist's playground. They just pay off the regulators

That's not what I was talking about. She thought that if completely unregulated that all the corporations would behave themselves more which is rather silly.

[threebyfate]

Hmm, yeah I guess I can come across as overly negative. I'm not saying no one is altruistic. Rather I'm saying every normal person also has altruistic and narcissitic elements to their personality.

 

Look at this forum for example. If you start a thread about men are like this or women are like this, you often get people that come along that say. "I disagree, because I've had this experience". They think their experience which could be the exception to the rule is more important than it really is.

 

Another example, I was talking with friends the other day about this. Note how in a group photo most people just look at themselves, and often miss things about other people in the pics.

 

A degree of selfishness is required for an organism to survive.

 

I just think that in a given population it's more like a spectrum, and what % of people that show narcissitical behavior is just a reflection of the moral values and norms of that society.

You're taking this from the perspective that any degree of narcissism isn't healthy. That's not true. EVERYONE has some degree of narcissism, what we commonly deem as self-esteem, self-respect and an instinctual reaction of self-protection.

 

Where it differentiates, is the degree.

 

As an extreme example, one day, a crowd sees a child being harmed. The emotionally healthy individuals would jump in and try to help the child. A narcissist would immediately consider the scenario to be a great news story angle and take advantage of this. Note the self-benefit?

[BookerT]

You're taking this from the perspective that any degree of narcissism isn't healthy. That's not true. EVERYONE has some degree of narcissism, what we commonly deem as self-esteem, self-respect and an instinctual reaction of self-protection.

 

Where it differentiates, is the degree.

 

Isn't that what I'm trying to get at?

 

But self benefit is an extreme variation of self protection. That's also what I'm getting at.

 

The reason narcissism even exists is because for us to survive as an organsim we have to have a degree of selfishness. Narcissists just take it to an unpleasant level, where they are unable to balance someone else's benefit along with their own.

[Taramere]

Rand's take on Altruism if memory serves me well is that it is an act giving that is damaging to the self but some of her views just didn't jive right for me. I think she had a very naive idea about how the business world would work freed from any and all regulations.

 

I think she was fine with people giving, so long as they were clear about their own self interest in the act. So even if it's just a feeling of pleasure that comes from seeing someone else's happiness, that's self interest. Which is good.

 

That part of her theory does appeal to me. That you should give, if it pleases you to give, but not feel an obligation to do so. That makes the whole giving and receiving exchange more positive for both involved. To that end, a person might actually give more freely than they would if feeling guilt tripped to do so.

 

But yes...how she would expect her theory to be applied in a pure form is beyond me. It's all well and good to create stories full of perfect, strong, superheroes who are consistently loyal to their own principles, but real life people aren't drawn from Ayn Rand characters, and in some cases cherrypicking from her stories might do little more than help some pretty sociopathic characters feel good about looking in the mirror.

[threebyfate]

Isn't that what I'm trying to get at?

 

But self benefit is an extreme variation of self protection. That's also what I'm getting at.

 

The reason narcissism even exists is because for us to survive as an organsim we have to have a degree of selfishness. Narcissists just take it to an unpleasant level, where they are unable to balance someone else's benefit along with their own.

Yes but your take is that the psychiatric profession is making up NPD, which isn't true. Any disorder is a collection of extreme examples of specific normal behaviours.

 

It really helps to categorize it, whether you call it NPD or Strawberry Disorder. Once you categorize, it's easier for the psychiatric professionals to apply techniques and medication, that their counterparties have found helpful.

[carhill]

Oh come on, even kids caught for doing something wrong often lie to their parents.

 

MM is no kid, and he's been 'doing his thing' for a long time. He knows exactly what he's doing. The cool thing is, in our society, he will succeed with this. Mark (no pun intended) my words. He's learned from the best. With Tiger in the news (just watch his interviews, both now and in the past) and now this, it's some really instructive insight into how these guys operate. TBH, I don't fault them in the least. Society has created them from the blank slate that was once a helpless infant. Think about that; all the nuances that contribute.

 

Who does the lying, deceiving and manipulation benefit? What's the balance point? Plenty of opinion on both sides. The debate goes on

[threebyfate]

Btw, BookerT, great thread! It requires not only thinking but with the existing participants, is debated with civility and respect, rather than the personal attack hammer blows that have become the norm on LS.