BookerT Posted January 12, 2010 Posted January 12, 2010 Sorry for typo in the title.......=.=" Sorry but psychologist make it sound like if a person doesn't follow certain social norms then they have a disorder or not normal. Take narcisstical personality disorder. Isn't this just a way of saying a person is friggin selfish and self centered? I mean all human beings have selfish and altruistic behaviors to a degree. It just depends on where they lie on the scale, to the extreme of nice or extreme of selfish or in between. I think psychologists just need to create a lot of terms to give their field more credibility.
theBrokenMuse Posted January 12, 2010 Posted January 12, 2010 Take narcisstical personality disorder. Isn't this just a way of saying a person is friggin selfish and self centered? No. NPD is not the same as self-absorbed or selfish.
betamanlet Posted January 12, 2010 Posted January 12, 2010 Sorry for typo in the title.......=.=" Sorry but psychologist make it sound like if a person doesn't follow certain social norms then they have a disorder or not normal. Take narcisstical personality disorder. Isn't this just a way of saying a person is friggin selfish and self centered? I mean all human beings have selfish and altruistic behaviors to a degree. It just depends on where they lie on the scale, to the extreme of nice or extreme of selfish or in between. I think psychologists just need to create a lot of terms to give their field more credibility. People can take it to extremes and lack consciences as a result. Look at politicians. Virtually all of them have NPD. They will lie, cheat and steal to get whate they want (power) and feel no remorse, they act remorseful when they get caught, but that' sonly because they were caught. Even John Edwards admitted he is a narcissist, which I found shocking that they can actually admit this. I hope to one day write a paper on narcissism and politics. People, including non politicians, are becoming more and more narcissistic, meaning they become increasingly sociopathic (ie with facebook, twitter, anything for attention) and society will pay the price.
Author BookerT Posted January 12, 2010 Author Posted January 12, 2010 People can take it to extremes and lack consciences as a result. Look at politicians. Virtually all of them have NPD. They will lie, cheat and steal to get whate they want (power) and feel no remorse, they act remorseful when they get caught, but that' sonly because they were caught. Even John Edwards admitted he is a narcissist, which I found shocking that they can actually admit this. I hope to one day write a paper on narcissism and politics. People, including non politicians, are becoming more and more narcissistic, meaning they become increasingly sociopathic (ie with facebook, twitter, anything for attention) and society will pay the price. Right, so it's not a lack of awareness of what's right or wrong. Rather it's a person that just doesn't give a crap. It's also true that it seems people are getting more and more selfish. But again that doesn't necessarily mean it's a disorder. Rather it's just a part of human nature that naturally exists coming out. A survival mechanism. I was reading about a group of 20 people shipwrecked on an island. There were 7 men and 13 women. Within 2 years 5 of the men were dead, killed by each other. The environment will naturally unlease natural selfish instincts within humans, just to what degree.
New_Life08 Posted January 12, 2010 Posted January 12, 2010 Everyone has narcissistic tendencies, but normally people get a handle on this as they mature into adults and realize that life does not revolve around them and they find a balance. Narcissists are not people who tend to be selfish about certain things and whatnot. Narcissists have the emotional equivalence of a spoiled child. they are typically obnoxious braggers, the ruler, can do no wrong, their partner always falls short of expectations, and how dare they since the N is so admirable in every way. They usually hang with people who feed their ego, and head for the hills and disassociate themselves with people who call them out. It is like they live in a fantasy land of superiority, and fight to the death to keep it that way by manipulation and emotional abuse.
theBrokenMuse Posted January 12, 2010 Posted January 12, 2010 Right, so it's not a lack of awareness of what's right or wrong. Rather it's a person that just doesn't give a crap. It's also true that it seems people are getting more and more selfish. But again that doesn't necessarily mean it's a disorder. You don't understand the difference between the disorder and the word. People with severe NPD are insecure to the very core and so they create personas for themselves - an idealized version of themselves that they play out. They can't really connect to others on a personal level and have to resort to mimicking emotional and social responses in order to blend in or stand out, in accordance with whatever facade they wish to present at the time. Since they are so insecure they are also extremely needy (needing constant ego bolstering attention) and will emotionally abuse and victimize those around them in order to get their supply. You see, in an NPD's world the only real person who exists is themselves. Everyone else is simply a non-entity, just a faceless bunch of extras in the movie of their lives except their families which they consider to be a reflection of themselves. Since they need to be seen as their persona of perfection, they often times have unrealistically high expectations of their children and spouses as well.
betamanlet Posted January 12, 2010 Posted January 12, 2010 You don't understand the difference between the disorder and the word. People with severe NPD are insecure to the very core and so they create personas for themselves - an idealized version of themselves that they play out. They can't really connect to others on a personal level and have to resort to mimicking emotional and social responses in order to blend in or stand out, in accordance with whatever facade they wish to present at the time. Since they are so insecure they are also extremely needy (needing constant ego bolstering attention) and will emotionally abuse and victimize those around them in order to get their supply. You see, in an NPD's world the only real person who exists is themselves. Everyone else is simply a non-entity, just a faceless bunch of extras in the movie of their lives except their families which they consider to be a reflection of themselves. Since they need to be seen as their persona of perfection, they often times have unrealistically high expectations of their children and spouses as well. Other people are tools for the person to with NPD to get what they want. Otherwise they have no purpose to the person with NPD. Either they can be used, or they have no purpose. NPD people are sociopaths, like you describe. At least in the most cases, their sociopathy is just limited to being horrible people, rather than killing people because they feel like it. These people are becoming increasingly more and more common, and are very overrepresented in politics.
Crusoe Posted January 12, 2010 Posted January 12, 2010 Yes I believe there are such things as personality disorders. A lot of people can be narcissistic but they don't damage themselves and their lives. Once it gets to the stage you are hurting yourself and unable to get along in the world I believe it becomes a disorder.
Author BookerT Posted January 12, 2010 Author Posted January 12, 2010 Ok, I agree that some people are extreme in this sense. But lying exist as tools in almost all human beings. Same for deception and manipulation, just to a much smaller degree in nice people. So it's still more like a spectrum, rather than well most people don't have this disorder, and a narcissit has these specific traits like it's a yes or no situation.
threebyfate Posted January 12, 2010 Posted January 12, 2010 It's degree of symptoms, rather than the symptoms themselves. Someone with NPD has no boundaries of acceptable behaviour, when it comes to getting what they want. One thing I do disagree with the psychiatric field, is that they claim NPDers don't have empathy. According to my experience, albeit solely with one, is that they have a substantial amount of empathy, but what they do with the information, is to manipulate to get their own needs met, rather than sympathize. It's a very predatory disorder.
betamanlet Posted January 12, 2010 Posted January 12, 2010 It's degree of symptoms, rather than the symptoms themselves. Someone with NPD has no boundaries of acceptable behaviour, when it comes to getting what they want. One thing I do disagree with the psychiatric field, is that they claim NPDers don't have empathy. According to my experience, albeit solely with one, is that they have a substantial amount of empathy, but what they do with the information, is to manipulate to get their own needs met, rather than sympathize. It's a very predatory disorder. That's not empathy what you describe, you prove the point of pscyhologists. They fake empathy so they can manipulate and get what they want. What they show is NOT genuine empathy. They just pretend to have empathy. I recall watching some movie about the Nuremburg Trials after WW2, and a psychologist was trying to figure out what makes people evil, and at the end, after speaking with many Nazis, he came to the conclusion that evil is the lack of empathy.
Taramere Posted January 12, 2010 Posted January 12, 2010 It's degree of symptoms, rather than the symptoms themselves. Someone with NPD has no boundaries of acceptable behaviour, when it comes to getting what they want. One thing I do disagree with the psychiatric field, is that they claim NPDers don't have empathy. According to my experience, albeit solely with one, is that they have a substantial amount of empathy, but what they do with the information, is to manipulate to get their own needs met, rather than sympathize. It's a very predatory disorder. A friend of mine is a therapist, who dealt with someone who was....well, more like a psychopath in her view than a mere narcissist. Obviously she didn't name him, but she mentioned it in the context of a conversation we were having about psychopathy. She's very warm and empathic in her presentation, and he appeared very intrigued by this. He'd often comment on the way she was counselling him, and take note of certain things she said or did. Insights she had. Something opportunistic looking, she felt, about his interest. She started to get the impression that his decision to undergo counselling didn't stem so much from wanting to bring about improvements in his relationships, as wanting to learn methods of mimicking empathy from a counsellor in order to manipulate others She ended up telling him that she didn't believe she could assist him further. That his methods of relating to people seemed less influenced by circumstances that could be altered, more influenced by basic temperamental traits that were probably very fixed. Apparently he came close to vomiting when she told him this, and left the office never to be heard from again.
threebyfate Posted January 12, 2010 Posted January 12, 2010 That's not empathy what you describe, you prove the point of pscyhologists. They fake empathy so they can manipulate and get what they want. What they show is NOT genuine empathy. They just pretend to have empathy. I recall watching some movie about the Nuremburg Trials after WW2, and a psychologist was trying to figure out what makes people evil, and at the end, after speaking with many Nazis, he came to the conclusion that evil is the lack of empathy.What is the definition of empathy? In order to effectively manipulate, you need insight into their feelings, which includes zeroing in on what drives them. How do you get insight, if you can't feel?
threebyfate Posted January 12, 2010 Posted January 12, 2010 A friend of mine is a therapist, who dealt with someone who was....well, more like a psychopath in her view than a mere narcissist. Obviously she didn't name him, but she mentioned it in the context of a conversation we were having about psychopathy. She's very warm and empathic in her presentation, and he appeared very intrigued by this. He'd often comment on the way she was counselling him, and take note of certain things she said or did. Insights she had. Something opportunistic looking, she felt, about his interest. She started to get the impression that his decision to undergo counselling didn't stem so much from wanting to bring about improvements in his relationships, as wanting to learn methods of mimicking empathy from a counsellor in order to manipulate others She ended up telling him that she didn't believe she could assist him further. That his methods of relating to people seemed less influenced by circumstances that could be altered, more influenced by basic temperamental traits that were probably very fixed. Apparently he came close to vomiting when she told him this, and left the office never to be heard from again.From what I've been given to understand, it's not uncommon for NPDers to be tossed out, by their therapists/counselors, since most often, they're in denial and fixed in their thought processes of self-benefit and self-protection. My ex-H is still in therapy, closing on 3 years. It's one step forwards, three steps backwards for him, many a time, but there's def. been some improvement, since he's willing to admit he has a problem. You can see him struggle sometimes to do the "right" thing v. his normal process.
Author BookerT Posted January 12, 2010 Author Posted January 12, 2010 From what I've been given to understand, it's not uncommon for NPDers to be tossed out, by their therapists/counselors, since most often, they're in denial and fixed in their thought processes of self-benefit and self-protection. My ex-H is still in therapy, closing on 3 years. It's one step forwards, three steps backwards for him, many a time, but there's def. been some improvement, since he's willing to admit he has a problem. You can see him struggle sometimes to do the "right" thing v. his normal process. I think it's more like they start analyzing and getting better of the therapist, lol. I do agree with you that narcissits need to know empathy to understand even better how to manipulate. I think a narcissist is just someone that doesn't care. I really don't think it's a disorder that seperates them from other human beings.
Sam Spade Posted January 12, 2010 Posted January 12, 2010 Well, duh... a "disorder" by definition means something deviating from the normal "order". Personality disorders are deviation from 'normal' psychological development and have little to do with social norms and "selfishness". So, if you're looking for excuses for both, that's not it .
threebyfate Posted January 12, 2010 Posted January 12, 2010 I think a narcissist is just someone that doesn't care. I really don't think it's a disorder that seperates them from other human beings.Oh but it does!!! The degree of emotional vampiring is greatly detrimental to their narcissistic supplies, primary or secondary. It's also highly detrimental to their own ability to retain happiness in their lives, fueled by functional relationships of any kind.
betamanlet Posted January 12, 2010 Posted January 12, 2010 I think it's more like they start analyzing and getting better of the therapist, lol. I do agree with you that narcissits need to know empathy to understand even better how to manipulate. I think a narcissist is just someone that doesn't care. I really don't think it's a disorder that seperates them from other human beings. Narcissists are sociopaths. Sociopaths are people who are so selfish, that they care about nothing else. The difference between a non sociopath and a sociopath, si that the sociopath wants something, or to do something, and doesn't let anything get in the way, such as conscience. So if he hates some person, he wants to kill them, and sees no reason why not to. While a nonsociopath would think "well, he has a family, they love him, has children, who need him, and it's simply not worth killing someone simply because I dislike them", so sociopath simply would do it because they want to. Same with narcissists, though they tend not to kill people, fortunately. They do whatever they want, to people, treating people whatever way, to get what they want, with no regard for the consequences for those people. Could you take the money out of someone's wallet and not feel any guilt about it? A sociopath can. They wanted the money, so they took it. Simple as that.
alphamale Posted January 12, 2010 Posted January 12, 2010 Are there even such things are disorders like NPD? . yes i think there are
theBrokenMuse Posted January 12, 2010 Posted January 12, 2010 I think it's more like they start analyzing and getting better of the therapist, lol. No, actually most NPD people will not accept that they have flaws and will fight to the bitter end to deny they have any type of problem in this regard which makes a great deal of them untreatable. I do agree with you that narcissits need to know empathy to understand even better how to manipulate. Not really, they just need to know the mechanics although *most* NPDs aren't exactly big on feigning empathy - excessive amounts of charm to hide the empty personalities just below the surface is much more common. I think a narcissist is just someone that doesn't care. I really don't think it's a disorder that seperates them from other human beings.A personality disorder is just a bunch of personality traits that when exhibited together present a certain pattern of behavior and thought - that's it, although sociopathy has been linked to different levels of brain functionality. However there is a difference in choosing to not care and not feeling emotions in the same sense people normally do thus not being able to relate to other human beings.
Author BookerT Posted January 12, 2010 Author Posted January 12, 2010 Ok so here's the deal. Can we all switch to being narcissists if we were put in an environment where survival was at stake andd life was more extreme? Lord of the flies examines this, where a bunch of kids change and start acting like animals. There's also countless stories of people becoming extremely animal like and selfish if their survival is at stake. Ship wrecked, selling other people out in Soviet Russia, Nazi Germany. Self preservation makes human beings narcissitical. Just that the ones we see in a normal society act that way already whilst most people don't. But if we were in say Somalia wouldn't most of us become narcissists?
alphamale Posted January 12, 2010 Posted January 12, 2010 But if we were in say Somalia wouldn't most of us become narcissists? its hard to be a narcissist if there is no money, food or shelter around
Author BookerT Posted January 12, 2010 Author Posted January 12, 2010 its hard to be a narcissist if there is no money, food or shelter around No on the contrary you would start to care less about the feelings of another human being, and fight much harder for the limited resources that exist.
Taramere Posted January 12, 2010 Posted January 12, 2010 The difference between a non sociopath and a sociopath, si that the sociopath wants something, or to do something, and doesn't let anything get in the way, such as conscience. So if he hates some person, he wants to kill them, and sees no reason why not to. While a nonsociopath would think "well, he has a family, they love him, has children, who need him, and it's simply not worth killing someone simply because I dislike them", so sociopath simply would do it because they want to. There are some very good books on this subject. Don't know if you've read "Without Conscience" by Robert Hare, but it's one of the definitive ones. Packed full of anecdotal incidences where he or his students interviewed suspected psychopaths in prison. Some very creepy stories indeed....such as the woman who had killed her children, then shot herself in the leg to substantiate her alibi that they'd been killed by an intruder. When she was interviewed, she demonstrated no remorse in respect of the children...but demonstrated an incredible amount of self pity about the pain in her leg. Or serial killers who would rant that nobody took time to understand the real them, or what great guys they truly were. When I read that book, I found a lot of references to "The Mask of Sanity" by Herve Cleckley. I was sorry to find it was out of print because it sounded so fascinating. But then deux ex machina posted a link to a free online copy. I'd started to read it then got distracted, but I must have another look. Here it is.
threebyfate Posted January 12, 2010 Posted January 12, 2010 BookerT, this discussion is almost moving towards an Ayn Rand direction. If you haven't, you might want to read up on Objectivism, where no one is altruistic. It's fascinating and has a siren call to the narcissist in everyone. Just remember to retain your humanity or you might find yourself too heavily immersed in it, from the wrong perspective.
Recommended Posts