Best approach for parents to take.....

[Ronni_W]

Ronni_W, please dont hold back. Say what you have to. You will not hurt my feelings. I need whatever it takes to come out of this a better father than I have been thus far.

lb, if you don't mind, I'll just quote from one of the books I suggested. And I am suggesting it again -- if you are serious about reaching YOUR full potential, then I do believe that you will find the few hours spent reading this book well worth the investment.

 

This is from How Good Do We Have to Be? by Harold Kushner:

 

"The amount of harm a child can do to a parent is limited. They can embarrass us, but only if we have invested our reputations in how they turn out. They can disappoint us, but that probably hurts them more than it hurts us. They want so badly to please us.

"But parents can harm their children much more seriously. We harm them not only with physical and emotional violence. We harm them with unrealistic expectations. (A colleague of mine says that "being disappointed" is a uniquely middle-class form of child abuse.) And we harm them by not modeling an adult lifestyle for them, an approach that includes a willingness to make and admit mistakes and learn from them rather than always insisting that we are right. Children need to admire their parents. And one of the things we should teach our children to admire about us is our willingness to say, 'I'm sorry,' 'I was wrong about that,' 'I don't know.'"

[Ronni_W]

Just curious, what makes you say his psyche and heart are well battered?

(I'm tempted to ask: What makes you think it could be anything but?)

What makes me say it is the type of parent that you are portraying yourself to be -- your approach and parenting style, as it is coming across in your posts. And I'd go as far as to suggest that if you asked him, and he had the courage and trust in you to tell you the truth, then he would confirm it.

 

I've been tough on my kids but with the intention of making them strong and upstanding citizens.

Yes, that is the refrain of all parents, everywhere. However, noble intentions don't always translate into loving words and actions. And unintentional pain still hurts exactly the same as the intended kind.

 

I think over all, I may have ruined their childhood as a result but they are excellent kids

Individuals who experienced "ruined" childhoods seldom end up having terrific adulthoods...except with the help of one or more excellent therapists.

 

It would also, of course, depend on one's definition of what it means to be an "excellent" adult offspring -- your children are adults, not "kids".

 

Their adult choices are NOT for you to judge and the consequences NOT for you worry about. Your children are not perfect and they will make mistakes. They are LIKE YOU, they're not going to get any "better" than you (as far as being imperfect and not always knowing exactly how to do life.)

 

You can judge, whine, get angry and "kick ass" all you want -- they're still going to do what they have to do to fulfill their own life's plan and purpose; they're still going to make piss-poor decisions; they're still going to suffer outcomes that they never even dreamed about. Your kids are LIKE YOU.

 

The experience that your son is having now is about him, not about you. It is as possible that this will prove to be the BEST thing that's ever happened to him. That this lady will love him better than anyone else ever has; better than even he loves himself. That his child will teach him about unconditional love and being human and being okay with making mistakes. Real, big, important life lessons that he hasn't yet learned.

 

He doesn't know how things will actually turn out. And neither do you. He is but hoping for the best. And so can you hope for him, with him.

 

In my humble opinion and with due respect.

Edited January 14, 2010 by Ronni_W

[Angel1111]

[quote=Ronni_W;2597624Individuals who experienced "ruined" childhoods seldom end up having terrific adulthoods...except with the help of one or more excellent therapists.

You can judge, whine, get angry and "kick ass" all you want -- they're still going to do what they have to do to fulfill their own life's plan and purpose; they're still going to make piss-poor decisions; they're still going to suffer outcomes that they never even dreamed about. Your kids are LIKE YOU.

 

All of the things you wrote are very well-said. The concept of a ruined childhood makes me cringe quite a lot. This isn't something to be proud of in the remotest way.

 

I have a 19-yr-old son and I sometimes marvel at the good choices he makes. But I realize that if I had had the direction in my life that he had, I would've made better choices throughout my life, too. There have been times when my son was headed down the wrong path and I helped turn him back around. The thing is, I never talked to him about his mistakes as though they had anything to do with me. For whatever consequences I could see occuring, I pointed out the effect they would have on him. Because ultimately all I want is to see him happy and fulfilled. I'm not overly concerned with what profession he chooses, if it suits me or makes me proud, or who he dates or marries. Someone in another thread asked 'who do you pick for your son to marry' (or something along those lines). I don't even understand that concept. As long as he's happy, I'm happy. Period. If he screws up, I know he'll get back on track. He knows that I have confidence in him as a person and I think that goes a long way toward him having confidence in himself.

 

I think the big key is that if a parent lays down the facts before the child and lets them make the choice, it feels a lot different to the child. It's very important to let them know that it's ok to screw up, that it's ok to make mistakes. If a child feels that a mistake is the end of the world, then they're going to be less likely to have confidence. Also, they're less likely to be self-destructive if they know they can screw up and still be loved.

[lowblow]

Hi lowblow.

 

I've recently come across a couple of books that have helped me tremendously:

1. How Good Do We Have to Be? by Harold Kushner. Contains an excellent chapter entitled 'Fathers and Sons, Mothers and Daughters'.

2. Forgive for Love by Fred Luskin. This one is more geared to primary relationships but lots that can be adapted to any type of relationship.

 

 

Thanks for the suggesting the reads. "How good" is sold out, so I order one and picked up a copy of Forgive for Love.

[lowblow]

The experience that your son is having now is about him, not about you. It is as possible that this will prove to be the BEST thing that's ever happened to him. That this lady will love him better than anyone else ever has; better than even he loves himself. That his child will teach him about unconditional love and being human and being okay with making mistakes. Real, big, important life lessons that he hasn't yet learned.

 

He doesn't know how things will actually turn out. And neither do you. He is but hoping for the best. And so can you hope for him, with him.

 

In my humble opinion and with due respect.

 

Wow. Thanks Ronni. I get the message. So what do you suggest I do moving forward. Is it even possible to undo the hurt/damage I have caused?

[lowblow]

Individuals who experienced "ruined" childhoods seldom end up having terrific adulthoods...except with the help of one or more excellent therapists.

 

Its a vicious cycle, that thing called life. My mother left my dad when I was an year old because he kicked and punched her even while she was pregnant with me. He was an alcoholic, so it goes. She returned back to her parents with my other siblings and her mother died suddenly, 6 months after we moved in. Thankfully, her father was rich so all needs were fulfilled 100% except for one thing that was missing. Love, I suppose for I did not know what it was till I met my girl friend, who is now my wife.

 

I was an incorrigible and uncontrollable child, almost as if possessed by the devil. My mother could not control me and I always fought with my siblings. She could not handle the stress of divorce, the animal-in-me and other social pressures, I suppose. So she sent me away for months at a time to her brothers and sisters homes. I would cry for hours, everyday at dusk begging to be taken home because I missed my mom and wanted to go back home but she did not want me because I reminded her of my abusive dad. I was beaten up, punished and sexually abused. My aunt would love to beat me because I never understood the the word "NO". I lived dangerously and did what came to mind so they beat me. It was the cool thing to do in the 60's, I suppose. I've even had raw cayenne chili peppers rubbed in my face, around the eye lids. I still remember that day. I thought I was going to die, so I locked my self in the bathroom and screamed so loud the next door lady came to help but I was so scared to open the door after what my mother had done to me, the person I trusted the most. I could trust no one. All that, and I hadn't reached 7 years old. Shortly there after, my mother lost it and went crazy. She had a nervous breakdown. The doctor who arrived at home, gave her shock treatment (shocked her temples) and that knocked her out for 3 months. She was a vegetable, quiet literally for a few years to come. Life quiet literally sucked and it prolonged. Fast forward 9 years, I was in a gang and beat up people and did crazy stuff but I was doing good in school. In order to break my gang ties, my grandfather (my best friend) sent me overseas to University. Dropped out a couple of times, but my grandpa kept me on track. Here I am after all these years still screwed up and screwing up my children's lives. I have mixed feelings about my childhood but mostly good memories come to mind at first. If I really dig deeper, there's some darkness there. My mother died in her 50's (like here mom)and I hadn't spoken to her for the last 10 years of her life. I had unresolved issues with her that made me take that path which I now regret. I mysteriously came into contact with a spiritual medium who is highly renowned in communicating with the other side (dead people). My mother had only two words for me during a one hour session. Those words were " I'm Sorry".

 

My life goes on but I don't think I'm the best person I can be. I'm successful and provide for my family but I'm cold at heart. I haven't mentioned the aforementioned contents to anyone, face to face. Not even to my wife of 25 years.

 

On a different note, we are 7 months away from being grandparents. My son has decided to marry her and do what it takes to fulfill his responsibilities. I have decided to and told him that I'll be there for him all the way no matter what. I have refused to meet her thus far but now I have come to realise that I have another daughter I have to bring into my life. Apparently she has no parents or does not know where they are.

 

Now I need a stiff drink.

[Angel1111]

Hugs to you. That's truly a heartbreaking story, lowblow. I'm sorry for all the pain and suffering and betrayal you endured. I think you can give yourself a pat on the back, though, in the sense that you haven't repeated that awful behavior with your kids. Maybe in a sense you took away their childhood by being strict but I'm guessing you didn't rub red peppers in their eyes. You didn't have much of an example, and it sounds like you were very strong-willed. So, guess what kind of kids strong-willed people have....?

 

What is happening with your son is very fixable in the sense that you can make amends with him, and that can heal both of your souls. Kind of like hearing your mother say, 'I'm sorry'. Your kids sound like they're doing pretty well, it's just that your son isn't doing what you want him to do; he's not taking the path you hoped he would. But it is what it is. It's great that you told him that you'd be there. Embrace these people and let them live their lives, knowing they have your love. That alone goes a long way.

[Ronni_W]

Wow. Thanks Ronni. I get the message. So what do you suggest I do moving forward. Is it even possible to undo the hurt/damage I have caused?

lb,

You can do something far more important -- you can offer your son a heartfelt, "I am sorry for not always knowing how to show you the love for you that has always been in my heart. I am sorry for not always being the Dad that you have always deserved."

 

Something like that. You will be tempted, but I'd encourage you not to throw in any excuses about your noble intentions. And you don't even need to mention "pain" or "damage" by name. He will know. He knows how it has been.

 

He may say something like, "Oh, you've been a great dad." And you'd be able to trust him, and believe that that has ALSO been part of his experience with you. There has been plenty of good, as well. And you could respond, "Thanks for your forgiveness, son. Looking back, I'm not all that proud or pleased with how I did it, and I do intend to start trying to do a little better. When I falter, I'd appreciate you gently letting me know."

 

 

No, it's not possible to "undo" the past -- as your question suggests you already know. And it's not necessary, really, to even want to try to do that. Children can -- and do -- love their parents despite all kinds of crap. When we're adults, we just want to hear that we were NOT disappointments; that our parents do love, admire and respect us as much as we do them; that we are worthy and deserving of love, admiration and respect.

 

As that author said, children WANT their parents to be proud of them. If you can give him the message that all those times that you expressed disappointment or were too stubborn-strict...that you were acting from mistakes on your part; that it wasn't him who was at fault or "faulty" in any way. A current-day message along those lines will go a long way to heal his wounded heart.

 

Speaking from my own experience as an adult child

[Ronni_W]

Now I need a stiff drink.

Cheers, lb. Watcha drinking and I'll have one with you

Thanks for trusting us enough to share your story. I appreciate you for the strength and courage it must have taken. I'm sorry for your childhood experiences. You did not deserve that. You deserved to be loved, and understood, and guided, and supported.

 

Your behaviour as a child was perfectly normally and natural, under the circumstances. It was, in fact, your adults who were uncontrollable...and cruel. They were wrong. You did not deserve punishment...you were only "incorrigible" based on their wrong belief that they could control you by punishing you.

 

You know what I say? Good for you for not letting them get away with that! Good for you for making it difficult for them; for not just rolling over and letting them control you! Screw that, and screw them. Silly, misguided, out-of-control adults that they were. THEY were devil-possessed, not you.

 

I'm successful and provide for my family but I'm cold at heart.

I'm sorry to disagree with you but. I'm not seeing evidence of a person who is "cold at heart". I think...if that was the case, you NEVER would have even thought about seeking other opinions about how to deal with the "problem" that you thought you had. I think it is your kind, loving heart that brought you here.

 

It strikes me also, that your future daughter-in-law has already blessed YOU, personally, in ways that...well, in ways that perhaps you hadn't envisioned would be possible for her to do. Blessed you, and your wife, your son and your other child(ren).

 

You have always been the best person that you could be, given whatever beliefs, intentions, wisdom, knowledge and skills you possessed. Not that you were perfect, and not that you didn't make mistakes. Just that, at the time, you did the best that you thought and knew how to do. Yes?

 

I haven't mentioned the aforementioned contents to anyone, face to face. Not even to my wife of 25 years.

I do hope that you feel better for having shared it here. There is pain, and there may also be shame. But you did nothing wrong and you did not deserve to be treated like that. You survived the ordeal. It gave you strength and courage, amongst other valuable qualities. That is to be admired...you are to be admired. There is nothing for you to feel guilty or ashamed.

 

I have refused to meet her thus far but now I have come to realise that I have another daughter I have to bring into my life.

You're going to make an EXCELLENT granddad and dad-in-law...and an even better dad and husband than you used to be. It's a good thing. It's called growth and personal development. You were the best you could be before, and now you have new knowledge and are gonna learn new skills to be even better!

 

Congrats on your imminent 'grandparenthood'.

Wishing you and your entire -- and expanding -- family all the love and happiness in the world.

Edited January 15, 2010 by Ronni_W

[lowblow]

I'm sorry for all the pain and suffering and betrayal you endured. ........... So, guess what kind of kids strong-willed people have....?

 

I'm long past the suffering and betrayal that you refer to. I dont even look at it that way. It way my Karma. Like I mentioned, I have to really dig deeper to remember the dark past. At a quick glance, I only remember the good stuff and fun times I had.

 

Yes, you are right. My kids are strong-willed like you wont believe. I can spend a day knocking sense into my son and he would respectfully do what he intended to do. Our second one is more logical but strong-willed and unforgiving. The nut doesn't fall far from the tree.

[lowblow]

Hey Ronni,

 

Your post #33 has priceless content. I will do what I have to do. Thanks.

 

Where were you 20 years ago, when I really need you?

[lowblow]

Cheers, lb. Watcha drinking and I'll have one with you

 

Crown Royal but not now. Its 5 am, its almost coffee and donut time.

Edited January 19, 2010 by lowblow

[lowblow]

You have always been the best person that you could be, given whatever beliefs, intentions, wisdom, knowledge and skills you possessed. Not that you were perfect, and not that you didn't make mistakes. Just that, at the time, you did the best that you thought and knew how to do. Yes?

 

 

Yes. With the different perspective gained here, I'm going to improve going forward.

[TheLoneSock]

My wife and I have been married 25 years and raised two children. We’ve been through very trying times financially amongst other family problems which has tested our marriage 100’s of times but our union endured. Our eldest son moved out at 19 against our wishes in search of freedom and subsequently dropped out of college in the 3rd year even though we paid for tuition and offered assistance and soon shacked up with an older woman with no family ties and no steady employment and got her pregnant. They insist on having the baby while both are unemployed.

 

We are decent working class people trying to see the other teen through college. We can’t seem to cope with the shock of the news, the shame and the disaster in the offing. We’ve put the house on sale and just want to get out of here. My wife is an emotionally weak, highly family oriented and I on the other hand am a military guy, trained to kill and move on to the next target and show no remorse. In my world, people have to pay for their actions/mistakes and must be taught a lesson. In other words, he must be punished with no assistance whatsoever. My wife on the other hand would be totally willing to house them and give them a free ride as long as we are alive. That thought alone begins to kills me very slowly and painfully.

 

I can’t seem to forgive my son for what he’s gotten himself into and I have absolutely no respect for the mature woman who put herself in such a vulnerable situation. They have decided to bring an innocent life into being when they just don’t have the means and the capacity to endure.

 

I’m here to ask you folks to share your thoughts and help us cope and choose the right path to take. Also help us understand what drives children to do this.

 

Thank you for taking the time to read our problem.

 

You may be much older and wiser than I, myself being only 23; but nevertheless I think your views will change when you see your first grandchild for the first time. As poor a situation it is, and as rough as it will be for them - like you said - he'll just have to find a way on his own. But when that grandchild does enter your life and you hold him/her for the first time, do not kick yourself for wishing a different situation upon your son. It is natural for you to feel the way you do right now because you only want the best for him, and this is not the best; but remember that your feelings will probably change when the situation comes to completion.

 

If I were in his shoes, I would want all the love and support from my father I could get - and not in the form of financial assistance. You can't keep him from making 'mistakes' if this instance can be called that, but you can help him learn from them - even if it's the hard way. Forgive your son, or later in life you won't be able to forgive yourself. It is his life after all.

[Ronni_W]

Crown Royal but not now. Its 5 am, its almost coffee and donut time.

There's gotta be an ad out there someplace, with the message, "ANY time is Crown Royal time!"

But fair enough. Coffee now, Crown later. I can work with that.

 

I'm glad you found something useful in #33. I appreciate you for mentioning it.

 

Wishing your DiL a healthy pregnancy and an easy delivery. Please do keep us updated on how things are going.

And...you know where to find us when you need that special LoveShack love and support that can only be found right here.

 

All the best.

[lowblow]

An update to those who helped me immensely during a time of distress, that all is well. Baby is due in a few months. The parents to be are now married. We suggested they move in with us and they already have. Everybody seems to be happy and comfortable. Father and son bond has never been stronger. My wife is thrilled that her son is back under the same roof. We have vowed we will let them live their life and offer any support they may need. I sincerely hope it lingers.

 

Thank you, everybody.

[Spiritofnow]

Hey, lowblow,

 

I can see from you last post that it was some time ago when you found yourself in difficult times. I am hoping that life has eased up a little for you and your family. This post is not necessarily to address the issues you had, because it seems that the time to offer words of sage regarding that has passed. My post is due to a feeling I got when I was reading through your initial thoughts and feelings regarding your sons behaviour. How you sounded felt familiar to me, and then I read on to see that you had endured such terrible abusive events as a child, and it all started to make sense to me.

 

I WAS a victim of childhood abuse, benign neglect, alcoholic step-father, undiagnosed bipolar mother, and I suffered greatly too.

 

I ended up putting myself through 2.5 years of therapy, which has enabled me to undo a lot of the skewed thinking I had and allowed me to give myself permission to grieve for my lost childhood and the subsequent choices I made as a young adult due to that. When our early life development is so terribly interrupted by trauma it does effect our choices and behaviours until we can put what we learned and why into context. My main lessons as a child were about survival and scanning the environment for possible danger, because I learned from very young age that being in the world meant that bad things happened to you. I am sure you felt similar.

 

I have a 15 year old son, and one of the things I have realised since healing is that my parenting style was way off. I parented my son with an emphasis on avoiding the kind of parenting I received, and I can see with hindsight that I overcompensated and made myself responsible when he made bad choices.

 

I had this template in my mind of the kind of child I wanted him to be, and then if I succeeded in creating a person based on that template it would validate that I had indeed avoided being a 'bad' parent and raising a successful and happy child. As life goes that has not happened and my son has found himself in difficult times....needless to say my initial reaction was similar to yours, in that I felt ashamed of his choices, and I felt angry with him. It's only now that I can see that my shame was based on my feelings that I had somehow been a bad parent--I had not been able to avoid some of the pitfalls that I had experienced.

 

I realise that what I was actually doing was using my sons behaviour as a reflection of who I was--what he did felt like a reflection of who I am and the parent I had been to him up until that point.

 

Parenting from that perception is heavy, because what we are actually doing is displacing our feelings of failure on to our children.

 

I have been through a lot with my son, and I am a better and more balanced parent due to those difficulties.

 

I now realise that trying to make him perfect is about me, and that I need to accept my son for the person he is and continue being a positive role model in order to influence him. I realise that trying to make my son 'perfect' was because I was afraid when the world saw him making mistakes that they would really see that I was not a together person - he was a reflection of me.

 

I guess my closing words would be that I am no longer afraid of imperfection, because I realise that I am no longer trying to hide anything. My son gets to be exactly who he is and I accept that and guide him as best as I can. One of the biggest and most powerful lessons that I have also learned is that life is always going to happen, and sometime life can be messy, and it's not those moments you should be afraid of it's not handling them as gracefully as you can. Sh*t happens, but it's really all about how you deal with it that creates the best life lessons for you and your child.

 

I am wishing you well and I hope you find a place (if you have not already) where you can feel content and free from the shackles of the past.

 

Remember, you are a good man, and you have done the best you could with what you had.

Edited June 24, 2010 by Spiritofnow

[turnera]

Does he have a job?

[lowblow]

Does he have a job?

 

Yes he does.

[turnera]

Awesome! Best of luck.

[lowblow]

Hey Spritofnow,

 

Yes, life is good. I believe the difficult years may have passed me by. I have come to realize that I cannot change fate so I’m learning to go with the flow.

 

Your past seems to mirror mine. My wife seems to think that I have issues but has stuck around for nearly 30 years. She knows very little of what I’ve endured as I'm not comfortable talking about it.

 

I guess my closing words would be that I am no longer afraid of imperfection, because I realise that I am no longer trying to hide anything. My son gets to be exactly who he is and I accept that and guide him as best as I can. One of the biggest and most powerful lessons that I have also learned is that life is always going to happen, and sometime life can be messy, and it's not those moments you should be afraid of it's not handling them as gracefully as you can. Sh*t happens, but it's really all about how you deal with it that creates the best life lessons for you and your child.

 

Exactly what I've adopted in the last 3 months. I support him in his endeavors and will be there should he need help. I'm done criticising him and telling him what to do.

[Spiritofnow]

Hey Spritofnow,

 

Yes, life is good. I believe the difficult years may have passed me by. I have come to realize that I cannot change fate so I’m learning to go with the flow.

 

Your past seems to mirror mine. My wife seems to think that I have issues but has stuck around for nearly 30 years. She knows very little of what I’ve endured as I'm not comfortable talking about it.

 

 

 

Exactly what I've adopted in the last 3 months. I support him in his endeavors and will be there should he need help. I'm done criticising him and telling him what to do.

 

Thank you for answering back, Lowblow.

 

 

I am glad you are in a healthier and happier place with your parenting. I wish you and your family love and happiness.

[catherinebell]

I agree that he's a dumbass for some of the short-sighted decisions he's made, but the thing is, at 20-something, he's a grown up, LB, and you've got to keep that first and foremost in your mind. If he's screwed up, then it's up to him to find a way to make amends or make things work.

 

 

Huntsville Single Mom